ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags 2017 elections , Georgia elections , Georgia politics , Jon Ossoff

Reply
Old 20th April 2017, 12:21 PM   #121
Tony Stark
Philosopher
 
Tony Stark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 8,295
A basic principle our country was founded on was voting. The people should have be able to collectively decide who makes the laws. Except at that time it meant only certain people. White men who owned property. I think they dropped the property requirements pretty quickly. But it wasn't until 1870 that states were forbidden from prohibiting non white men from voting. And that required a constitutional amendment which only passed because the South lost the civil war. Though of course the south still hated the idea of black people voting and were effective in disenfranchising most of them through various tactics. This went on for nearly a hundred years until the federal government finally forced them to stop. And woman weren't given universal suffrage until 1920. This also took a constitutional amendment.

So I would say that the whole institution of representative democracy in America was profoundly unjust for most of the nation's history because for most of it, one could be denied the right to vote based on race or gender. America is a more just society now than it has been in the past, but we can still make it better. Liberals believe that we should be actively doing that, using the power of the federal government if necessary. Conservatives resist progress in society because they are driven by fear of change.

The people who started the movements that resulted in universal suffrage were considered radical leftists in their time. And they had a lot of resistance to their cause from conservatives who were more scared about what might happen if blacks and women could vote than they were concerned about justice. It took a lot of time and work but eventually they were able to convince enough people that they achieved their goal.

Of course, today, it is taken for granted that everyone has a right to vote. Well, Republicans in some states try to make it harder for people who are likely to vote against them to vote. But they know that they can't come out and say that so they just make up some bs about voter fraud.
Tony Stark is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th April 2017, 12:35 PM   #122
Segnosaur
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 8,911
Originally Posted by logger View Post
No like police, military, capitalism and don't forget Jesus himself, the king of kings.
Actually the King of Kings is Triple-H, Hunter Hearst Helmsley.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_H#In_wrestling
__________________

Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer
I cheered when then the WTC came down. - UndercoverElephant (a.k.a. JustGeoff)
I cheer Bin Laden... - JustGeoff (a.k.a. UndercoverElephant)
Bin Laden delivered justice - JustGeoff (a.k.a. UndercoverElephant)
Men shop for lingerie the way kids shop for breakfast cereal... they will buy something they know nothing about, just to get the prize inside. - Jeff Foxworthy
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th April 2017, 12:43 PM   #123
Segnosaur
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 8,911
Originally Posted by logger View Post
Quote:
This. Absolutely this. And it took a Canuck to write it, too.
And leftists will cheer it.
I think that says a lot about the mentality of a Trump supporter right there.

You made a statement regarding various cultural traditions. Border Reiver made a very well thought out post that addressed your post directly, by indicating some of the "traditions" you hold in high regard have greatly changed over the years. Yet rather than address Border Reiver's post to show where he might be wrong (which you probably can't), you engage in petty sniping.

I also think that its rather telling that you seem to paint things in such a black-and-white fashion (i.e. stressing the "leftists".) Keep in mind that some of the opposition to Trump comes not from "leftists", but moderates, or even conservatives who see Trump's policies (as well as the man himself) as flawed. Heck, I'm Canadian and voted conservative in the past Canadian election, but if I were in the U.S. I would certainly not support Trump.
__________________

Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer
I cheered when then the WTC came down. - UndercoverElephant (a.k.a. JustGeoff)
I cheer Bin Laden... - JustGeoff (a.k.a. UndercoverElephant)
Bin Laden delivered justice - JustGeoff (a.k.a. UndercoverElephant)
Men shop for lingerie the way kids shop for breakfast cereal... they will buy something they know nothing about, just to get the prize inside. - Jeff Foxworthy
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th April 2017, 12:48 PM   #124
blutoski
Penultimate Amazing
 
blutoski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 10,276
Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
Of course, today, it is taken for granted that everyone has a right to vote.
With some overt exceptions, such as categories of Felons.



Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
Well, Republicans in some states try to make it harder for people who are likely to vote against them to vote. But they know that they can't come out and say that so they just make up some bs about voter fraud.
Voter fraud is one. Strategic felonization is another (I just made up that phrase). eg: black people disproportionately use those marijewanas, so let's make that a disenfranchising felony and invest massive resources in cracking down.
__________________
"Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett
blutoski is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th April 2017, 03:26 PM   #125
logger
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,768
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
There are people on the right who think slavery was a great thing. You still haven't answered my question.
Really? Since you had to look long and hard for that one, you might as well show us what you found, then I can Lol at it and tell how ridiculous your example is.
Quote:
Again: slavery is one of the founding institutions of the USA. Do you agree with this horrible practice, or do you hate one of the founding institutions of America? You can't have both or neither, logger.
If I called it horrible, what do you think my answer would be?
Because one institution was horrible that somehow means all the rest are horrible too. This is just ridiculous, as usual.


Quote:
Another dodge. I guess we have a clue of what you believe about slavery.
I called it horrible does that give you any kind of clue? Your dishonesty is sharp today!
logger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th April 2017, 03:30 PM   #126
logger
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,768
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Actually the King of Kings is Triple-H, Hunter Hearst Helmsley.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_H#In_wrestling
Thanks for enlightening me.
logger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th April 2017, 03:34 PM   #127
logger
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,768
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
I think that says a lot about the mentality of a Trump supporter right there.

You made a statement regarding various cultural traditions. Border Reiver made a very well thought out post that addressed your post directly, by indicating some of the "traditions" you hold in high regard have greatly changed over the years. Yet rather than address Border Reiver's post to show where he might be wrong (which you probably can't), you engage in petty sniping.
Somehow those institutions can't change overtime, that is fascinating.
Quote:

I also think that its rather telling that you seem to paint things in such a black-and-white fashion (i.e. stressing the "leftists".) Keep in mind that some of the opposition to Trump comes not from "leftists", but moderates, or even conservatives who see Trump's policies (as well as the man himself) as flawed. Heck, I'm Canadian and voted conservative in the past Canadian election, but if I were in the U.S. I would certainly not support Trump.
You and others want to pigeon hole institutions claiming they aren't an American institution because they've changed through time? And you call me black and white, ******* hilarious!
logger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th April 2017, 04:12 PM   #128
Border Reiver
Philosopher
 
Border Reiver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 5,693
[quote=logger;11807064][quote=Border Reiver;11806831]Not sure if your understanding of history and "what made America" is all that accurate:



Police - The first police force in the US wasn't formed until 1838. Prior to that policing was done by an untrained sheriff who was able to convince enough of his neighbours that he could drag the town drunk to cells to sober up and stop Bob and Frank from brawling in the local tavern (or who the local powerbase thought could keep the local undesirables in line). Policing has often been the tool for social repression in addition to its more idealized role. While individual police officers tend to do their best under very challenging circumstances, the police have not always been a part of that advances the ideas enshrined in the US constitution.
Quote:



Try to have a society without them.
I wouldn't.

I also believe that police need to be carefully trained and monitored.

Because when you give any group great power, the exercise of that power needs to be monitored.

Quote:
Lol

What makes this country great doesn't have to start with the founders and I believe you're full of crap in what you "think" the founders thought of military.
Here you go. Madison and Sam Adams are quoted in the article. And about 20 more seconds of searching will get ones from Jefferson as well.

You've probably forgotten, but the billeting of British soldiers in the colonies to defend the colonies from Indian, French and Spanish attacks was one of the causes of the Revolution (that and, horror of horrors, asking that the colonies contribute to their own defence).

The fear that the state might use a standing army against its own citizens was a general concern in both the colonies and in Britain itself at this time. America didn't come around to the idea that a large standing military might be required until after WWII.

Quote:
Lol

Please tell me how Jesus effects the first amendment?

So simple even Donald Trump should be able to understand it. The US government can't prefer any religion over another or none at all.
__________________
Questions, comments, queries, bitches, complaints, rude gestures and/or remarks?
Border Reiver is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th April 2017, 04:33 PM   #129
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 60,843
Originally Posted by logger View Post
Really? Since you had to look long and hard for that one, you might as well show us what you found, then I can Lol at it and tell how ridiculous your example is.
Well of course it's ridiculous, since only despicable morons like Cliven Bundy would say anything like that. That's besides the point, though, isn't it?

Quote:
If I called it horrible, what do you think my answer would be?
Maybe you're playing devil's advocate. I don't know because you refuse to clearly say it.

Quote:
Because one institution was horrible that somehow means all the rest are horrible too. This is just ridiculous, as usual.
It would be ridiculous if I said that, but I didn't say that. YOU said that. YOU are the one who said the left hates the institutions that MADE America. Since you find one of those institutions horrible (maybe?), then it follows that you hate at least ONE institution that MADE America, so why do you complain about other people doing the exact same thing?

Quote:
I called it horrible does that give you any kind of clue? Your dishonesty is sharp today!
And yet you STILL haven't answered the question. Evasiveness is dishonesty, logger.
__________________
"What is best in life?"
Argumemnon is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th April 2017, 07:05 PM   #130
logger
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,768
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Well of course it's ridiculous, since only despicable morons like Cliven Bundy would say anything like that. That's besides the point, though, isn't it?
Yes, it's quite far from the point and you brought it up.

Quote:
Maybe you're playing devil's advocate. I don't know because you refuse to clearly say it.
I simply said the left hates institutions that made America, you somehow thought I must have been talking about slavery, so naturally you had to mention it and now you think somehow I'm playing devils advocate for it. Its always exciting participating in your fantasys. Glad I could help.


Quote:
It would be ridiculous if I said that, but I didn't say that. YOU said that. YOU are the one who said the left hates the institutions that MADE America. Since you find one of those institutions horrible (maybe?), then it follows that you hate at least ONE institution that MADE America, so why do you complain about other people doing the exact same thing?
I find it fascinating that you could equate slavery with law enforcement, the military, capitalism, even the church. So yeah I do get to complain when the disgusting left protests the very institutions that made this country great.


Quote:
And yet you STILL haven't answered the question. Evasiveness is dishonesty, logger.
Yeah sure, more fantasy!
logger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th April 2017, 07:07 PM   #131
logger
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,768
[quote=Border Reiver;11807573][quote=logger;11807064]
Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
Not sure if your understanding of history and "what made America" is all that accurate:



Police - The first police force in the US wasn't formed until 1838. Prior to that policing was done by an untrained sheriff who was able to convince enough of his neighbours that he could drag the town drunk to cells to sober up and stop Bob and Frank from brawling in the local tavern (or who the local powerbase thought could keep the local undesirables in line). Policing has often been the tool for social repression in addition to its more idealized role. While individual police officers tend to do their best under very challenging circumstances, the police have not always been a part of that advances the ideas enshrined in the US constitution.

I wouldn't.

I also believe that police need to be carefully trained and monitored.

Because when you give any group great power, the exercise of that power needs to be monitored.



Here you go. Madison and Sam Adams are quoted in the article. And about 20 more seconds of searching will get ones from Jefferson as well.

You've probably forgotten, but the billeting of British soldiers in the colonies to defend the colonies from Indian, French and Spanish attacks was one of the causes of the Revolution (that and, horror of horrors, asking that the colonies contribute to their own defence).

The fear that the state might use a standing army against its own citizens was a general concern in both the colonies and in Britain itself at this time. America didn't come around to the idea that a large standing military might be required until after WWII.




So simple even Donald Trump should be able to understand it. The US government can't prefer any religion over another or none at all.
Interesting, I didn't know our government chose Christianity for their religion.
logger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th April 2017, 07:24 PM   #132
Noztradamus
Illuminator
 
Noztradamus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,132
Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Can he win a runoff?
I think voter misogyny will guarantee that
__________________
The Australian Family Association's John Morrissey was aghast when he learned Jessica Watson was bidding to become the youngest person to sail round the world alone, unaided and without stopping.
Noztradamus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st April 2017, 02:38 AM   #133
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 60,843
Originally Posted by logger View Post
Yes, it's quite far from the point and you brought it up.
No, it's exactly on point, as I explained several times.

Quote:
I simply said the left hates institutions that made America, you somehow thought I must have been talking about slavery
No, I pointed out that you obviously were since slavery is one of those institutions. I'm trying to find out if you agree with them on that.

Quote:
I find it fascinating that you could equate slavery with law enforcement
I'm doing no such thing. You're the one doing this. I'm merely pointing out that slavery is one of the founding institutions of the USA, and trying to get you to admit that you, in fact, hate one of the institutions that MADE the US. So far you've been very reluctant to admit that you hate slavery.

Quote:
Yeah sure, more fantasy!
Now you're just knee-jerk responding. How is calling evasiveness dishonest a fantasy?
__________________
"What is best in life?"
Argumemnon is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st April 2017, 04:42 AM   #134
logger
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,768
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
No, it's exactly on point, as I explained several times.



No, I pointed out that you obviously were since slavery is one of those institutions. I'm trying to find out if you agree with them on that.



I'm doing no such thing. You're the one doing this. I'm merely pointing out that slavery is one of the founding institutions of the USA, and trying to get you to admit that you, in fact, hate one of the institutions that MADE the US. So far you've been very reluctant to admit that you hate slavery.



Now you're just knee-jerk responding. How is calling evasiveness dishonest a fantasy?
Calling it horrible is being evasive? You're being dishonest because you need your narrative. The fact is if I don't lead you through everything you simply can't figure it out. When conservatives talk about the institutions that made this country great, they aren't talking about slavery, once again. What's fascinating is you have to have that explained to you.
logger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st April 2017, 04:50 AM   #135
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 60,843
Originally Posted by logger View Post
Calling it horrible is being evasive?
You didn't voice it as your own opinion. So I still don't know what you really think.

Quote:
You're being dishonest because you need your narrative.
What are you talking about? Did you hear "narrative" from right-wing podcasts and are randomly reusing the word here? You don't seem to know what the word means.

Quote:
The fact is if I don't lead you through everything you simply can't figure it out. When conservatives talk about the institutions that made this country great, they aren't talking about slavery, once again.
So you do admit that you pick and choose which institutions made the country great. So why do you criticise "the left" for doing the same thing?
__________________
"What is best in life?"
Argumemnon is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st April 2017, 09:42 AM   #136
logger
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,768
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
You didn't voice it as your own opinion. So I still don't know what you really think.
What you're quoting here, I once again called it horrible.


Quote:
What are you talking about? Did you hear "narrative" from right-wing podcasts and are randomly reusing the word here? You don't seem to know what the word means.
The narrative that conservatives would think slavery a great institution. Your view is quite extreme, not one ounce of moderation there.

Quote:

So you do admit that you pick and choose which institutions made the country great. So why do you criticise "the left" for doing the same thing?
How in Gods name is this not obvious? Did you think my love of those institutions would include the EPA?
logger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st April 2017, 09:48 AM   #137
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 60,843
Originally Posted by logger View Post
The narrative that conservatives would think slavery a great institution. Your view is quite extreme, not one ounce of moderation there.
It's also not my view. You continue to misrepresent my posts even whenit's trivial to go back and read what I actually said:

Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
There are people on the right who think slavery was a great thing.
And then I went on to say that only morons like Cliven Bundy would agree. Did you miss that?

Quote:
How in Gods name is this not obvious?
You're still not answering.

Quote:
Did you think my love of those institutions would include the EPA?
I didn't realise the EPA dated back to 1776.
__________________
"What is best in life?"
Argumemnon is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st April 2017, 08:05 PM   #138
Darth Rotor
Salted Sith Cynic
 
Darth Rotor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 38,161
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Logger, slavery was an American institution that lasted from its inception and for a hundred years. Are you in favour of slavery or not? And if not, why are you against American institutions?
Slavery, as an institution, predated the united states by a few thousand years. Check human history. It was established in the United States by the European colonial powers who settled in various parts of North America. It did not arise ex nihilo as some peculiarly American institution. Thankfully, we eventually got rid of it.
__________________
Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission.
"Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis
Darth Rotor is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 02:49 AM   #139
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 60,843
Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
Slavery, as an institution, predated the united states by a few thousand years. Check human history. It was established in the United States by the European colonial powers who settled in various parts of North America. It did not arise ex nihilo as some peculiarly American institution.
Neither did anything else that was part of the US' founding institutions. So what's your point?
__________________
"What is best in life?"
Argumemnon is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:30 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.