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Old 9th September 2020, 04:12 AM   #2001
LondonJohn
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Your * is entirely possible. My point is that the pride many have in our supposed finest system in the world is wrong.

I would prefer to see a shift towards a more inquisitorial system as found in most European countries, but my main point is that time and time again, in the UK, the police and prosecution have shown that they are not up to the job of evidence gathering and investigation.

Some named examples of people accused of serious crimes, where there was a totally inadequate effort made to gather evidence and establish if the crimes alleged actually took place are; Simon Warr, Liam Allan, those accused by "Nick" Carl Beech and those accused during Operation Ore.


But once again, you're going back exclusively to the matter of evidence gathering, investigative interviews, and the building of an evidence-based case. All of which are exclusively the preserve of the police. And nothing to do with the way that cases are prosecuted through the courts. Incidentally, prosecutors in the UK have nothing at all to do with evidence-gathering or investigation (which is, as I've said, entirely the preserve of the police).


(And it's still entirely possible to have a level of pride in a criminal justice system which one considers the best - or "least bad" - in the World, while still acknowledging that it's imperfect and that mistakes are made. As I've also said before: it's impossible to achieve a perfectly-functioning criminal justice system - ie one in which all factually-guilty people are convicted, and no factually-innocent people are convicted...)
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Old 9th September 2020, 04:20 AM   #2002
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
By being virtually immune to being held to account, I meant when the police or prosecution make a mistake or fail to do their job. Try complaining about the police or prosecution, they investigate themselves, very readily forgive themselves and use tactics such as introducing delays and costs to drive off complainers. The so called oversight bodies, such as HMIC and PIRC are staffed with ex police and prosecutors, so they just produce a veneer of accountability and their default position is to side with the police and prosecution.

Firstly, the Police And Criminal Evidence (PACE) Act singlehandedly held/holds the police to account in virtually every aspect of their investigative duties. Simply put: if a case gets to court, and the defence (or the court itself) can demonstrate that police failed to adhere to the requirements set out in PACE in respect of a given piece of evidence, then that piece of evidence is more-or-less automatically rejected by the court.

Secondly, there ARE independent oversight bodies - in England & Wales for example, this is the Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC). Bodies such as this have actually worked very hard to not only be independent of the police, but also to be seen to be independent of the police. Again, it's not a perfect system of course. But it's pretty good, and it does its job properly the vast majority of the time. And again, it's better than most other countries.
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Old 9th September 2020, 04:48 AM   #2003
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
But once again, you're going back exclusively to the matter of evidence gathering, investigative interviews, and the building of an evidence-based case. All of which are exclusively the preserve of the police. And nothing to do with the way that cases are prosecuted through the courts. Incidentally, prosecutors in the UK have nothing at all to do with evidence-gathering or investigation (which is, as I've said, entirely the preserve of the police).
Wrong. The prosecution (in Scotland for definite and I would like to see your evidence about E&W and NI) is responsible for ensuring the police do fully investigate and gather evidence, as required by law;

https://www.copfs.gov.uk/images/Docu...roceedings.pdf

"The Crown has an obligation to ensure that all reasonable lines of enquiry are pursued and accordingly, may instruct the police to carry out particular lines of enquiry where this has not already been identified."

The PF will often advise and liaise with the police on enquiries. An example of that is the weekly visits by PFs to divisional Case Management Units for what is called pre marking of cases, where the PF will read through crime reports and accept those where they are satisfied with the standard of evidence and reject those which need more work.

Quote:
(And it's still entirely possible to have a level of pride in a criminal justice system which one considers the best - or "least bad" - in the World, while still acknowledging that it's imperfect and that mistakes are made. As I've also said before: it's impossible to achieve a perfectly-functioning criminal justice system - ie one in which all factually-guilty people are convicted, and no factually-innocent people are convicted...)
If the UK has the best system in the world, then the rest of the world has truly dreadful, barely functioning legal systems.
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Old 9th September 2020, 04:51 AM   #2004
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No, no: I'm not claiming that prosecutors don't have a role in the direction of investigations etc.

I'm saying (correctly) that prosecutors don't actually DO the investigations etc.
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Old 9th September 2020, 04:54 AM   #2005
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And you're clearly not a (ahem) *fan* of the way the UK conducts its criminal justice, are you?

You do know, perhaps, that the vast, vast majority of the time, police in the UK do their jobs sufficiently well, and the courts (including prosecutors and defence counsels) do their jobs sufficiently well, for the right people to be convicted and for the wrong people not to be convicted? Don't you?
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Old 9th September 2020, 04:59 AM   #2006
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Firstly, the Police And Criminal Evidence (PACE) Act singlehandedly held/holds the police to account in virtually every aspect of their investigative duties. Simply put: if a case gets to court, and the defence (or the court itself) can demonstrate that police failed to adhere to the requirements set out in PACE in respect of a given piece of evidence, then that piece of evidence is more-or-less automatically rejected by the court.
I said "...the police and prosecution are virtually immune from being held to account and anyone who is subject to a miscarriage of justice is presented with virtually insurmountable hurdles to reverse that decision." If someone is subject to a miscarriage of justice, trying to get the police and prosecution to admit responsibility and for disciplinary actions to be taken against those who caused the miscarriage of justice is virtually impossible.

Quote:
Secondly, there ARE independent oversight bodies - in England & Wales for example, this is the Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC). Bodies such as this have actually worked very hard to not only be independent of the police, but also to be seen to be independent of the police. Again, it's not a perfect system of course. But it's pretty good, and it does its job properly the vast majority of the time. And again, it's better than most other countries.

I know there ARE oversight bodies

Can you show that they provide the service you claim and that they are better than most other countries?
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Old 9th September 2020, 05:05 AM   #2007
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
No, no: I'm not claiming that prosecutors don't have a role in the direction of investigations etc.

I'm saying (correctly) that prosecutors don't actually DO the investigations etc.
You said "...evidence gathering, investigative interviews, and the building of an evidence-based case. All of which are exclusively the preserve of the police..."

I have shown you to be wrong about the building of a case and you are also wrong about investigative interviews as witnesses can be called and interviewed by the PF outwith any police enquiry. You are correct that PFs do not go out and actually gather the evidence, in that they do not conduct SOC, collect CCTV, seize productions or do routine witness tracing and interviewing.
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Old 9th September 2020, 05:15 AM   #2008
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
You said "...evidence gathering, investigative interviews, and the building of an evidence-based case. All of which are exclusively the preserve of the police..."

I have shown you to be wrong about the building of a case and you are also wrong about investigative interviews as witnesses can be called and interviewed by the PF outwith any police enquiry. You are correct that PFs do not go out and actually gather the evidence, in that they do not conduct SOC, collect CCTV, seize productions or do routine witness tracing and interviewing.


Prosecuting authorities will tell police things like "you haven't built a case: you need to get some more convincing evidence of this guy's presence at the crime scene" and so on.


Perhaps it might help to draw the analogy of (eg) a school student doing a history project. The student might show her work in progress to her history teacher; the teacher might give constructive feedback and advice such as "This section dealing with the underlying reasons for the 100-year War is too vague - you need to improve it", or "I think you ought to add in an extra section about the historic relationship between the French monarchy and the French military in the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries". But the final work which the student presents to her teacher, on the day the report is due, is regarded as the student's, and the student's alone.
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Old 9th September 2020, 05:22 AM   #2009
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There's a lot of pages here, so forgive me if I'm missing a post that covers this.

Any further update on identifying and/or arresting our British one-punch man? Seems like an awfully long time for this sort of thing.

Seems less and less likely that there will be any negative outcome for our friend with freight trains for fists.

Seems that we're getting the happiest possible ending to this affair.
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Old 9th September 2020, 05:29 AM   #2010
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
There's a lot of pages here, so forgive me if I'm missing a post that covers this.

Any further update on identifying and/or arresting our British one-punch man? Seems like an awfully long time for this sort of thing.

Seems less and less likely that there will be any negative outcome for our friend with freight trains for fists.

Seems that we're getting the happiest possible ending to this affair.

A most excellent and enlightened sentiment.
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Old 9th September 2020, 05:34 AM   #2011
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
A most excellent and enlightened sentiment.
I'm going to take that as a "yes" to my question about our friend getting away with it Knock on wood, hope it stays that way.
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Old 9th September 2020, 05:39 AM   #2012
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Any further update on identifying and/or arresting our British one-punch man?
She's probably back in school.
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Old 9th September 2020, 06:22 AM   #2013
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Prosecuting authorities will tell police things like "you haven't built a case: you need to get some more convincing evidence of this guy's presence at the crime scene" and so on.


Perhaps it might help to draw the analogy of (eg) a school student doing a history project. The student might show her work in progress to her history teacher; the teacher might give constructive feedback and advice such as "This section dealing with the underlying reasons for the 100-year War is too vague - you need to improve it", or "I think you ought to add in an extra section about the historic relationship between the French monarchy and the French military in the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries". But the final work which the student presents to her teacher, on the day the report is due, is regarded as the student's, and the student's alone.
So the teacher is helping the student to build the case, so you were wrong to say "Incidentally, prosecutors in the UK have nothing at all to do with evidence-gathering or investigation (which is, as I've said, entirely the preserve of the police)."
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Old 9th September 2020, 11:48 AM   #2014
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
So the teacher is helping the student to build the case, so you were wrong to say "Incidentally, prosecutors in the UK have nothing at all to do with evidence-gathering or investigation (which is, as I've said, entirely the preserve of the police)."

No. The teacher is not helping the student to build the case. The teacher is saying to the student "I don't think you have yet built the case". Important difference.
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Old 10th September 2020, 01:17 AM   #2015
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
No. The teacher is not helping the student to build the case. The teacher is saying to the student "I don't think you have yet built the case". Important difference.
Semantic nit picking. Fact is, the prosecution service has a greater role in the investigation of crime than you thought and it is not entirely the preserve of the police.

You have made various pronouncements on the law in this thread that are wrong. I will certainly continue to fact check your comments due to their unreliability.
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Old 10th September 2020, 01:33 AM   #2016
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Semantic nit picking. Fact is, the prosecution service has a greater role in the investigation of crime than you thought and it is not entirely the preserve of the police.

You have made various pronouncements on the law in this thread that are wrong. I will certainly continue to fact check your comments due to their unreliability.

LOL

(PS: not in any way "semantic nit picking". I will certainly continue to fact check your comments due to their misrepresentation of what I wrote)
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Old 10th September 2020, 01:43 AM   #2017
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Seems that we're getting the happiest possible ending to this affair.

Getting knocked out made Steele see the light, and now he has joined the antifa?!
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Old 10th September 2020, 01:55 AM   #2018
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
LOL

(PS: not in any way "semantic nit picking". I will certainly continue to fact check your comments due to their misrepresentation of what I wrote)
You said "Incidentally, prosecutors in the UK have nothing at all to do with evidence-gathering or investigation (which is, as I've said, entirely the preserve of the police)." That is a definitive statement which can be disproved by showing any example where prosecutors do get involved in evidence gathering or investigations.

I pointed out examples where the prosecution does get involved, so you then shifted the goal posts so you could claim those examples somehow do not count.
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Old 10th September 2020, 02:04 AM   #2019
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
You said "Incidentally, prosecutors in the UK have nothing at all to do with evidence-gathering or investigation (which is, as I've said, entirely the preserve of the police)." That is a definitive statement which can be disproved by showing any example where prosecutors do get involved in evidence gathering or investigations.

I pointed out examples where the prosecution does get involved, so you then shifted the goal posts so you could claim those examples somehow do not count.

*sigh*

"Advising the police on how they (the police) should be conducting investigations or gathering evidence"

is not the same as

"Getting involved in conducting investigations or evidence-gathering"
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Old 10th September 2020, 03:10 AM   #2020
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
*sigh*

"Advising the police on how they (the police) should be conducting investigations or gathering evidence"

is not the same as

"Getting involved in conducting investigations or evidence-gathering"
Prosecutors interviewing witnesses, supervising investigations to ensure all relevant evidence is gathered and then preserving and preparing that evidence for use in court, attending crime scenes for evidence and court preparation purposes, is direct involvement in the investigation and evidence gathering process.

You were wrong to say the prosecution do "nothing at all". Even if all they did was issue some advice, that would be something, not nothing, but they do more than that.
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