ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Coronavirus , Sweden incidents , Sweden issues

Reply
Old 12th September 2020, 12:05 AM   #2081
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,085
Recent news, Denmark:

113 sundhedsansatte er smittet med corona den seneste uge (TV2.dk, Sep. 11, 2020)
113 health-care workers infected with coronavirus this week

44 nu indlagt med coronavirus – nedlukning af samfund er tæt på, advarer overlæge (TV2.dk, Sep. 11, 2020)
44 are now hospitalized with coronavirus – doctor warns that lockdown of society is getting closer
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2020, 12:19 AM   #2082
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,085
Recent news, Sweden:

Quote:
Tidigt i coronapandemin varnade Folkhälsomyndigheten om ”okunniga myndigheter”.
Nu har ett bråk blossat upp mellan MSB och FHM.
Bråket mellan FHM och MSB: ”Kunnat ta i mer” (Expressen.se, Sep. 7, 2020)
At the beginning of the pandemic, the Public Health Agency (FHM) warned against ”ignorant authorities”.
Now there’s a brawl between FHM and MSB.
The brawl between the Public Health Agency (FHM) and the Civil Contingencies Agency (MSB): ”Could have been involved more.” Much like Trump in the USA who wanted to calm down the American people, FHM seems to have wanted to calm down the authorities. They also claimed that the level of preparedness was good, which was obviously a lie, whether deliberate or due to ignorance.

Folkhälsomyndighetens makt över regeringens lag (Expressen.se, Sep. 11, 2020)
The power of the Public Health Agency over the government’s decisions

”Omdömeslöst att hosta och snörvla” (Expressen.se, Sep. 9, 2020)
”Coughing and sniffling is poor judgment” The leader of the Sweden Democrats attended a meeting in parliament after having been ill with symptoms that may be due to Covid-19, maybe to something else: He didn't get tested. He claims that he followed the rules and regulations laid down by FHM, and it's not unlikely that he did.

Quote:
I höst kan vi vänta oss nya – men mindre explosiva – klusterutbrott. Men på sikt kan sars-cov-2 utvecklas till ett milt säsongsvirus som fortsätter att cirkulera bland befolkningen.
DN har pratat med tre epidemiologer om hur pandemin slutar.
– I framtiden kanske vi inte ens behöver ett vaccin, säger Joacim Rocklöv, professor vid Umeå universitet.
Tre epidemiologer: Så slutar pandemin (DagensNyheter.se, Sep. 11, 2020)
This autumn, we can expect new – but less massive – cluster outbreaks. But long term, SARS-CoV-2 may turn into a milde seasonal virus that continues to circulate in the population.
Dagens Nyheter talked to three epidemiologists about how the pandemic will end.
In the future, we may not even need a vaccine, says Joacim Rocklöv, professor at the Umeå University.
Three epidemiologists: This is how the pandemic will end It doesn't sound as reassuring as it is meant to, I think. To me, it sounds as if the elderly in Sweden should prepare for spending the rest of their lives in self-isolation.

Quote:
Att kurvorna över antal smittade nu börjar peka kraftigt uppåt i både Norge och Danmark medan Sverige har ett något lugnare läge kan ha flera förklaringar.
Tegnell om Norges svenska coronastrategi: Inte en tävling (Aftonbladet.se, Sep. 10, 2020)
There may be more explanations for the curves of the number of cases beginning to point steeply upwards in both Norway and Denmark while Sweden is in a more calm condition.
Tegnell about Norway’s corona strategy: Not a competition Again Tegnell and Swedish reporters seem to forget that rising and falling numbers of cases depend very much on the level that you started out at – and on the number of tests that you conduct. The number of new cases is considerably smaller in Norway than in Sweden.

Quote:
Sverige begår ett misstag som kan kosta hundratals liv. Det anser fem europeiska epidemiologer som SvD har talat med.
”Munskydd kan rädda många liv”, säger epidemiologen Antoine Flahault.
Sverige gör allvarligt misstag enligt experter (SydsvenskaDagbladet.se, Sep. 10, 2020)
Sweden is making a mistake that may cost hundreds of lives, according to five European epidemiologists that SvenskaDagbladet talked to.
”Face masks can save many lives,” says epidemiologist Antoine Flahault.
Sweden is making a serious mistake according to experts

Quote:
Folkhälsomyndigheten borde bestämma sig och rekommendera alla att använda munskydd. Det menar professor emeritus Anders Vahlne.
Professorns kritik om munskyddan: ”Vill de ha smittspridning?” (Expressen.se, Sep. 3, 2020)
The Public Health Agency should make up its mind and recommend that everybody use face masks, according to professor emiritus Anders Vahlne.
The professor’s criticism of face masks: ”Do they want to spread the virus?”
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2020, 12:21 AM   #2083
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,085
Recent news from the Swedish side of the Norwegian-Swedish border:

Swedish shop keepers near the Norwegian border are pretty upset because Norwegians don’t go shopping in Sweden:
Norska kommunens coronakrav ska få anställda att avstå Sverigeresor (SVT.se, Sep. 11, 2020)
Norwegian municipality’s corona demands are intended to make employees abstain from (shopping) trips to Sweden

Ingen fart på gränshandeln – trots Norges öppning mot Sverige (SVT.se, Sep. 11, 2020)
Border shopping hasn’t increased – in spite of Norway’s opening towards Sweden

Boende i norska kommunen Sør-Odal: Vi stannar hemma (SVT.se, Sep. 11, 2020)
People in the Norwegian municipality Sør-Odal: We stay in Norway
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2020, 03:01 AM   #2084
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 45,901
Originally Posted by dann
But long term, SARS-CoV-2 may turn into a milde seasonal virus that continues to circulate in the population.
Dagens Nyheter talked to three epidemiologists about how the pandemic will end.
In the future, we may not even need a vaccine, says Joacim Rocklöv, professor at the Umeå University.
Three epidemiologists: This is how the pandemic will end It doesn't sound as reassuring as it is meant to, I think. To me, it sounds as if the elderly in Sweden should prepare for spending the rest of their lives in self-isolation.

Yes, this defeatism really annoys me. This is not a virus we should be willing to allow to simmer forever, endemic to the population. It's not just that the morbidity and mortality rates are greater than we should be willing to accept, but that it's perfectly possible that catching the virus when you're young and have a low chance of dying from it will not protect you from catching it again when you're old and vulnerable. Endemic coronavirus could make hermits out of everyone over retirement age and reduce life expectancy sgnificantly.

This thing is eradicable. It would be eradicable without a vaccine if people would do what they're told, but they won't. However a vaccine will give the eradication effort the edge it needs to be successful. I can understand people in general not understanding this, but when actual epidemiologists spout such nonsense I get cross. It almost seems as if they're trying to normalise the idea of endemic coronavirus so they don't have to bother eith the work of stamping it out.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2020, 04:14 AM   #2085
RedStapler
Muse
 
RedStapler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Posts: 733
Originally Posted by Clutch Cargo View Post
You must have an opinion, yes? Yes?
You could just answer the question...
RedStapler is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2020, 06:43 AM   #2086
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,085
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Yes, this defeatism really annoys me. This is not a virus we should be willing to allow to simmer forever, endemic to the population. It's not just that the morbidity and mortality rates are greater than we should be willing to accept, but that it's perfectly possible that catching the virus when you're young and have a low chance of dying from it will not protect you from catching it again when you're old and vulnerable. Endemic coronavirus could make hermits out of everyone over retirement age and reduce life expectancy sgnificantly.

This thing is eradicable. It would be eradicable without a vaccine if people would do what they're told, but they won't. However a vaccine will give the eradication effort the edge it needs to be successful. I can understand people in general not understanding this, but when actual epidemiologists spout such nonsense I get cross. It almost seems as if they're trying to normalise the idea of endemic coronavirus so they don't have to bother eith the work of stamping it out.

Björn Olsen is not an optimist:
Olsen: ”Covid-19 håller på i minst tio år till” (SvenskaDagbladet.se, Sep. 12, 2020)
Olsen: ”Covid-19 will continue for at least ten more years - Which is why he also assumes that he will get it at some point.

Quote:
Den senaste tidens ökade belastning har gjort att proven kanske tas för sent – vilket kan göra dem meningslösa.
Överbelastat system kan göra tester meningslösa (SvenskaDagbladet.se, Sep. 11, 2020)
The recent increased load (of the testing systesm) means that testing may be carried out too late – which may make them pointless.
Overloaded system may make testing pointless

Detta talar mot en bred smittspridning i höst (SvenskaDagbladet.se, Sep. 11, 2020)
This speaks against massive spread of infection this autumn - Primarily because Sweden now has testing-and-tracing.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 12th September 2020 at 06:45 AM.
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2020, 06:52 AM   #2087
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 45,901
Twice in my career we had novel livestock vaccines threatening Scotland. Twice we managed to keep them out, helped by geography. Both viruses got into England to a limited extent but the English surveillance system was able to contain them.

Both summers were a bit fraught and hectic, especially for our colleagues in England who actually had cases to deal with. (We had some seropositivity but no actual sick animals.) We were prepared to go again the following year each time (these were seasonal summer viruses with an insect vector) but on both occasions the vaccine was developed and launched and used to eliminate the virus.

Vaccination was compusory for a year, but we don't vaccinate any longer. The viruses haven't been wiped out from the world but they don't threaten us any more.

Do these so-called experts know nothing? Complete eradication within a country's borders and compulsory travel vaccination is the short-term solution to this, and will work fine in conjunction with enhanced surveillance to ensure that anything that gets through the borders is found and stamped out.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2020, 07:28 AM   #2088
Arcade22
Philosopher
 
Arcade22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 6,661
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Do these so-called experts know nothing? Complete eradication within a country's borders and compulsory travel vaccination is the short-term solution to this, and will work fine in conjunction with enhanced surveillance to ensure that anything that gets through the borders is found and stamped out.
Since clearly you know everything and anyone that could possibly disagree with you are nothing short of complete idiots, how about you apply your expertise and save Scotland first then? Or are you looking forward to another round of quarantine?
__________________
We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr

And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann

Last edited by Arcade22; 12th September 2020 at 07:29 AM.
Arcade22 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2020, 10:35 AM   #2089
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,085
No, not all people who disagree with Rolfe are "nothing short of complete idiots," but many of them obviously are.

You need to go back to page one of this thread and recapitulate your own appeals to false Swedish authority. You know, back in early April when only 150 people had died in Stockholm nursing homes and you were lecturing us about how lockdowns were not "sustainable" as if anybody had planned for them to go on forever.

Right now, whenever a country is loosening restrictions, Swedish journalists and politicians claim that they do so because they have been convinced by the superiority of the insane Swedish strategy, and in the meantime, some of the countries that have actually taken the Swedish approach to the pandemic strategy, states led by Trump's Republican governors, for instance, are overtaking Sweden's death toll.

The countries that never felt inclined to let people die the Swedish way are still 'dancing', and doing so quite effectively, New Zealand, Iceland, Norway and Finland, for instance, and even Denmark, in spite of the current set backs.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2020, 11:02 AM   #2090
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 45,901
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Twice in my career we had novel livestock vaccines viruses threatening Scotland.

Sorry, typing in a hurry, my reading group was about to start.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2020, 09:59 PM   #2091
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,085
Originally Posted by Clutch Cargo View Post
We know nothing ...

Quote:
Experts tell us what we do know and don’t know about COVID-19
It's been almost 8 months since the first coronavirus case was reported in the U.S. VICE News talked with some experts about what we've learned about the virus, and what we still don't understand at all.
[VICE news, Sep. 3, 2020)

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE



ETA: And even SVT Nyheter seems to think that there are things that we do know about coronavirus:

Quote:
I våras visste vi en hel del om coronaviruset, men många saker var samtidigt väldigt osäkra. Som hur farligt det var med övervikt –och varför–, om hur smittsamma barn egentligen är och om vi blir immuna efter en infektion.
Vissa teorier har bekräftats medan andra har kastats omkull.
Fem saker vi lärt oss om coronaviruset (SVT.se, Sep. 13, 2020)
This spring, we knew quite a lot about the coronavirus, but many things were very uncertain. Like for instance how dangerous it was to be overweight – and why – and how infectious children actually are and if we acquire immunity after having been infected.
Certain theories have been confirmed, others have been exploded.
Five things we have learned about the coronavirus

However, it does seem to be the product of Swedish confirmation bias when it claims that children don't really spread the infection.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 12th September 2020 at 11:07 PM.
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2020, 10:43 PM   #2092
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,085
Saturday:
Coronavirus - countries (Worldometers, Sep. 12, 2020)
Deaths per million (Total deaths) New cases Serious/Critical
Sweden: 578 (5,846) 311* 13 *according to SVT.se No new numbers till Monday
Denmark: 109 (630) 341 4
Finland: 61 (337) 45 1
Norway: 49 (265) 47 1
Iceland: 29 (10) 0 0
Iceland has 67 active cases, Faroe Islands 8, New Zealand 108.
The Faroe Islands have 9 in quarantine, 1 hospitalized, and all tests from yesterday analyzed.
I don’t know where the two new cases came from, but they are probably travellers tested at the airport - like other recent cases: Follow-up Covid test proves positive (KVF.fo, Sep. 11, 2020)
Yet another positive Covid test at airport (KVF.fo, Sep. 9, 2020)


Politiet roser festglade unge efter løftet pegefinger: 'Folk var mere ansvarlige i nat' - Politiet måtte dog lukke en piratfest med 300 deltagere i København. (DR.dk, Sep. 13, 2020)
The police praise festive young people after after serious admonitions: ”People were acting more resposibly tonight”” – However, the police had to close down a pirate party in Copenhagen with 300 participants

Epidemien fødes lige nu af de unge - og det er svært at bryde smittekæderne (TV2.dk, Sep. 12, 2020)
The epidemic is currently being fed by young people – and it is difficult to break the chains of transmission
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2020, 01:25 AM   #2093
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,085
The success story of the glorious Swedish strategy

Quote:
"Om ett par veckor kan Sverige vara som Italien. Det går förfärande fort nu." skrev DN:s chefredaktör Peter Wolodarski på ledarplats och förespråkade att "stänga ned Sverige".
När man nu, med facit i hand, läser vad tidningarna skrev de där veckorna känns det som en annan värld. I Italien hann krematorierna inte med och SVT sände bilder på bästa sändningstid av dödskampen inifrån intensivvårdsavdelningarna.
Vi var ett land av väldigt rädda människor.
Vi lyssnade på våra ledare och gjorde som vi blev tillsagda. Alltid en farlig situation.
Men Sverige blev inte Italien. Intensivvårdsplatserna tog inte slut, varken i april eller senare. I stället genomförde vårt land en historisk civil mobilisering. Sjukvården ställde om, företag ändrade produktion till skyddsutrustning och stora folkrörelser organiserade stöd till äldre i hela landet för att människor skulle kunna isolera sig.
Anders Tegnell var nog inte så fel ute trots allt (Aftonbladet.se, Sep. 13, 2020)
”In a couple of weeks Sweden may be like Italy. It’s going awfully fast now.” DagensNyheter’s editor in chief Peter Wolodarski wrote this in an editorial and recommended to ”lock down Sweden.”
When you now read what the newspapers wrote back in those weeks, with the knowledge of what actually happened, it feels like a different world. In Italy, the crematoria couldn’t keep up and SVT showed photos in primetime of the death struggle in ICUs.
We were a country of very scared people.
We listened to our leaders and did what we were told to do. Always a dangerous situation.
But Sweden didn’t turn into Italy. The ICUs weren’t exhausted, in April or later on. Instead, our country carried out a historic mobilization. The health-care sector reorganized, companies changed their production lines to PPE, and big popular movements organized support for the elderly all over the country to enable people to self-isolate.
Anders Tegnell probably wasn’t so wrong after all

I am astonished that Swedes let him get away with the lie that the Swedish ICUs could actually keep up with the number of people sick from Covid-19 when we know for a fact that people were left to die in nursing homes, receiving palliative care only, because hospitals didn't have the capacity to take them in!
It is possible that the Swedish crematoria were able to keep up. I don't know, and I don't really consider it to be all that important. Considering the number of Covid-19 deaths in Sweden (578 per million) in comparison to Italy (589), it is revolting to consider the Swedish strategy a success and claim that the people who warned that conditions in Sweden didn't resemble those in Italy.
On the contrary, Sweden did turn into Italy in spite of the lesson that the country could have learned from Italy!
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2020, 01:29 AM   #2094
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 45,901
Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Since clearly you know everything and anyone that could possibly disagree with you are nothing short of complete idiots, how about you apply your expertise and save Scotland first then? Or are you looking forward to another round of quarantine?

I know enough. This was my job for many years. And there are a lot of complete idiots running the covid show in a number of countries, that's obvious.

Nobody is going to listen to me, a retired veterinary disease control expert. Nobody is even listening to the current top veterinary experts. All they're doing is grudgingly accepting the use of the high-volume PCR machines we have for mass livestock testing, and even there saying, the veterinary technicians are only allowed to do basic sample preparation because they don't have human-hospital paper qualifications, and never mind that they've been running tightly quality-controlled assays on these machines for years. There's a lot of snobbery about.

I think this is a mistake. There is a huge amount the veterinary experts could contribute to this problem. We have experience of large-scale population testing and of eliminating disease from populations systematically, a bit at a time. We have experience of using vaccines to eliminate disease and then discontinuing vaccination and using biosecurity and surveillance to keep the population disease-free.

It's not the same problem, if this was an animal disease we'd have it licked by now because it's easier to isolate livestock groups and control animal behaviour, but it's swings and roundabouts. You can't educate cattle to protect themselves for one thing.

There is absolutely no need for any developed first world country to put up with endemic coronavirus after a vaccine is available, and any epidemiologist who is trying to soften people up to accept that should be taken out and shot.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2020, 03:32 AM   #2095
Clutch Cargo
Thinker
 
Clutch Cargo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 134
Exclamation

WHO official praises Sweden’s COVID-19 response despite higher death rate

https://fortune.com/2020/08/31/swede...al-death-rate/

One day Sweden's liberal pandemic strategy "is questioned" ...... another day it's "praised" ..... another day still it will be be condemned again. It's the standard fare for a problem that no one seems to know enough about. I think we can sum it up as "guesswork" and "trial and error". It'll be solved someday but until then don't pin your hopes on anyone.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Corona dilemma.jpg (52.9 KB, 3 views)
__________________
Trusting the media is a fool's crutch

Last edited by Agatha; 14th September 2020 at 01:25 PM. Reason: disruptive formatting
Clutch Cargo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2020, 03:44 AM   #2096
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 22,135
Originally Posted by dann View Post
That is what is so infuriating about this approach: You don't go to a bar to practice social distancing, obviously. If the problem is that the owners of bars can't pay their bills, then find a way to pay those bills for them to enable them to stay closed. Considering the disease that they help spread, I can't imagine that it won't be cheaper than paying the hospital bills.
Winter is coming ...
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I don't know why the politicians don't see this.

I'm pretty much resigned to staying isolated until the vaccine is available. Which I always thought woud be spring or summer next year, based on my experiences with similar situations in veterinary disease control.
Exactly and mortality is the tip of the iceberg. Devi Sridhar has pointed out that for a man her age (30) the risk of long-term illness as a result of Covid is already 1%
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2020, 04:07 AM   #2097
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 14,068
Originally Posted by dann View Post
”In a couple of weeks Sweden may be like Italy. It’s going awfully fast now.” DagensNyheter’s editor in chief Peter Wolodarski wrote this in an editorial and recommended to ”lock down Sweden.”
When you now read what the newspapers wrote back in those weeks, with the knowledge of what actually happened, it feels like a different world. In Italy, the crematoria couldn’t keep up and SVT showed photos in primetime of the death struggle in ICUs.
We were a country of very scared people.
We listened to our leaders and did what we were told to do. Always a dangerous situation.
But Sweden didn’t turn into Italy. The ICUs weren’t exhausted, in April or later on. Instead, our country carried out a historic mobilization. The health-care sector reorganized, companies changed their production lines to PPE, and big popular movements organized support for the elderly all over the country to enable people to self-isolate.
Anders Tegnell probably wasn’t so wrong after all

I am astonished that Swedes let him get away with the lie that the Swedish ICUs could actually keep up with the number of people sick from Covid-19 when we know for a fact that people were left to die in nursing homes, receiving palliative care only, because hospitals didn't have the capacity to take them in!
It is possible that the Swedish crematoria were able to keep up. I don't know, and I don't really consider it to be all that important. Considering the number of Covid-19 deaths in Sweden (578 per million) in comparison to Italy (589), it is revolting to consider the Swedish strategy a success and claim that the people who warned that conditions in Sweden didn't resemble those in Italy.
On the contrary, Sweden did turn into Italy in spite of the lesson that the country could have learned from Italy!
It's not as simple as elderly people receiving palliative care because the hospitals didn't have capacity. The hospitals did have capacity, and the elderly still received palliative care.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2020, 05:32 AM   #2098
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,085
I am aware of that, and it was mentioned in some of the articles I have linked to in this thread:

The point seems to have been to reserve ICU units for (younger) people with better chances of surviving the ordeal than (older) people in nursing homes.

As I've said before, the principle seems to have been that everything was fine: the patients may have died, i.e. they weren't even allowed to become patients in the first place, but the hospital beds remained in mint condition.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2020, 06:03 AM   #2099
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,085
Originally Posted by Clutch Cargo View Post
WHO official praises Sweden’s COVID-19 response despite higher death rate

Actual knowledge that you seem to be unaware of: Size 6 improves the quality of neither facts nor arguments.

Quote:
https://fortune.com/2020/08/31/swede...al-death-rate/

One day Sweden's liberal pandemic strategy "is questioned" ...... another day it's "praised" ..... another day still it will be be condemned again. It's the standard fare for a problem that no one seems to know enough about. I think we can sum it up as "guesswork" and "trial and error". It'll be solved someday but until then don't pin your hopes on anyone.

No, it's not a question of one day and the next day. In this case, one WHO official agrees with one element of the Swedish strategy, the appeal to the solidarity of Swedish citizens, which didn't stop Swedes from spreading the virus and was never really intended to do so because the Public Health Agency in Sweden was betting on herd immunity from the very beginning, leading to a death toll several times higher than the rest of the Nordic countries combined.

If you ignore the deaths, if you ignore the conditions in the Swedish health-care system and nursing homes during the pandemic, if you ignore the fact that Sweden partied on during the pandemic, thus contributing to the spread of the virus in Sweden as well as to neighboring countries whose party-hungry upper-class members or irresponsible young people went to Sweden to party and then brought the infection back home, if you ignore all that, which the WHO official apparently does, then the Swedish strategy was a great success.

And it won't be any less great in this respect tomorrow or next year. Dead men tell no tales. And the long-haulers who may never fully recover are easily forgotten. You won't see them on the subway on their way to work if they are no longer able to work, but you'll have more of them in Sweden than in the other Nordic countries, nonetheless. Here's an article about the things we know about them - and the things we don't yet know:
Coronavirussen har mange, grimme ansigter - flere af dem kæmper eksperterne fortsat med at forstå (TV2.dk, Sep. 12, 2020)
The coronavirus has many ugly faces - the experts are still struggling to understand several of them


From the Fortune article:
Quote:
In response to the envoy’s remarks, the director-general of Sweden’s public health agency, Johan Carlson, said in an interview with newspaper Svenska Dagbladet: “We are one of the few countries with a limited spread of infection, unlike several countries in Europe where the infection is returning sharply.”
“I call it the champagne cork effect,” Carlson said.
But Sweden’s COVID strategy still has many critics, including from within the country. Fredrik Elgh, a professor of virology at Umea University, points to the high death toll as evidence the light-touch approach has failed.
We have almost 6,000 dead. We have betrayed our elderly,” he said in the Svenska Dagbladet report. “We should test and trace infection much more. But the Public Health Agency does not want that.”
WHO official praises Sweden’s COVID-19 response despite higher death rate (Fortune, Aug. 31, 2020)
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2020, 06:15 AM   #2100
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,085
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Exactly and mortality is the tip of the iceberg. Devi Sridhar has pointed out that for a man her age (30) the risk of long-term illness as a result of Covid is already 1%

Young peple must not gamble with Covid-19 (MSN.com/CNN, July 21, 2020)

The ZeroCovid debate: can the disease be eliminated? (Unherd.com, Aug. 25, 2020)

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2020, 09:21 AM   #2101
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,085
Sunday:
Coronavirus - countries (Worldometers, Sep. 13, 2020)
Deaths per million (Total deaths) New cases Serious/Critical
Sweden: 578 (5,846) 311* 13 *according to SVT.se No new numbers till Monday
Denmark: 109 (631) 333 4
Finland: 61 (337) 23 1
Norway: 49 (265) 44 1
Iceland: 29 (10) 3 0
Iceland has 63 active cases, Faroe Islands 13, New Zealand 97.
The Faroe Islands have 14 in quarantine, 1 hospitalized, and all tests from yesterday analyzed.
Quote:
Five new Covid-19 cases were registered yesterday from Friday’s testing round, reports corona.fo.
They have all been quarantined, and contact tracing has been initiated.
All five persons contracted the virus domestically.
According to chief medical officer Lars Fodgaard Møller, two of them were already in quarantine, and the other three were believed to be exposed to the virus as they had close links to a known chain of infection.
Five new Covid-19 cases (KVF.fo, Sep. 13, 2020)

Ny melding fra politiet om nattens fester: Der er nogle der er ligeglade med sammenholdet (DR.dk, Sep. 13, 2020)
New report from the police about the parties last night: Some people don't care about solidarity

Borgmester vil have indført flere restriktioner i nattelivet (TV2.dk, Sep. 13, 2020)
Mayor wants more nightlife restrictions - It's the mayor of Frederiksberg where I live, a small but populous autonomous municipality in the middle of the municipality of Copenhagen. He finds it inconsistent that the municipality has been asked to let its employees work from home instead of (or in addition) locking down bars. Nightclubs and discos still haven't been allowed to reopen.

Quote:
Norge passerar nu Sverige i antal smittfall per 100 000 invånare, skriver Aftenposten.
Det norska talet ligger nu på 24,8 och det svenska på 24.0 de senaste 14 dagarna, 76 nya smittfall har rapporterats in det senaste dygnet i Norge.
Senaste nytt om coronaviruset (Aftonbladet.se, Sep. 13, 2020 – 12:34)
Norway is now overtaking Sweden in cases of infection per 100,000, writes Aftenposten.
The Norwegian number is now 24.8 and the Swedish is 24.0 in the last two weeks, 76 new cases were reported in Norway in the last 24 hours.
Latest news about the coronavirus

Norge med høyere smittetall enn Sverige (Aftenposten.no, Sep. 13, 2020)
Norway has more new cases per capita than Sweden

Koronaviruset sprer seg i sårbare grupper: – Nå er det alvor, folkens! (Aftenposten.no, Sep. 13, 2020)
Coronavirus is spreading in vulnerable groups: - Now it's serious, guys!
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2020, 12:36 AM   #2102
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,085
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
It's not as simple as elderly people receiving palliative care because the hospitals didn't have capacity. The hospitals did have capacity, and the elderly still received palliative care.

DN had two articles about this yesterday:

Quote:
Alla läkarbesök kan inte dras in för att förhindra smitta på äldreboenden, enligt Thomas Lindén, statschefläkare och avdelningschef på Socialstyrelsen.
– Jag kan inte förstå hur en sådan idé kan uppstå i huvudet på en legitimerad sjukvårdspersonal.
Socialstyrelsen: ”Rekommendationen om distansvård har vantolkats” (DagensNyheter.se, Sep. 13, 2020)
Not all visits by doctors can be cancelled to prevent infection in nursing homes, according to Thomas Lindén, chief physician and head of department at the National Board of Health and Welfare.
- I don’t understand how an idea like this can pop up in the heads of licensed healthcare professionals.
The National Board of Health and Welfare: "The recommendation on long-distance care was misinterpreted"

Quote:
Bara 16 procent av de covidsjuka på särskilda boenden i Stockholm har remitterats till sjukhus.
Social- och omsorgsnämnden i Lidingö fick veta att läkare på distans beslutat om palliativ vård för åtta äldre som var sjuka i covid-19.
Kommunpolitiker kräver nu att regionen garanterar att läkare är på plats när vården ska gå över från kurerande till palliativ.
– För oss handlar det här om liv och död, säger socialutskottets ordförande Suzanne Liljegren (L).
Kommunpolitiker kräver regionens garanti för läkare på plats för beslut om palliativ vård (DagensNyheter.se, Sep. 13, 2020)
Only 16 percent of covid patients in special housing in Stockholm were referred to hospital.
The Board of Social Affairs and Care in Lidingö was told that doctors made long-distance decisions on palliative care for eight elderly people who were ill with covid-19.
Municipal politicians now demand that the region guarantee that doctors are on site when care is to change from treatment to a palliative care.
– To us, this is a question of life and death, says the social committee's chairman Suzanne Liljegren (L).
Municipal politicians demand that the region guarantees that doctors are on site for decisions on palliative care
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2020, 09:18 AM   #2103
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,085
Monday:
Coronavirus - countries (Worldometers, Sep. 14, 2020)
Deaths per million (Total deaths) New cases Serious/Critical
Sweden: 578 (5,846) 311* 13 *according to SVT.se The Swedish numbers are only made public Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday.
Denmark: 109 (633) 347 4
Finland: 61 (337) 47 1
Norway: 49 (265) 65 1
Iceland: 29 (10) 3 0
Iceland has 63 active cases, Faroe Islands 11, New Zealand 96.
The Faroe Islands have 57 in quarantine, 0 hospitalized, and all tests from yesterday analyzed.
Hospitals have implemented new restrictions for visitors who have recently arrived from abroad (KVF.fo, Sep. 14, 2020)
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2020, 09:49 AM   #2104
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,085
Sweden in comparison to Denmark, Finland and Norway:

A reader asks about hospitalizations in the Nordic countries. SVT.se answers.
Quote:
Det är klokt att studera flera olika variabler för att få en nyanserad bild av utvecklingen. Sverige hade 105 inlagda på sjukhus i fredags, enligt Folkhälsomyndigheten. Jämförbara siffror för våra grannländer är 28 i Danmark, 16 i Norge och åtta i Finland. Ser vi till antalet patienter i intensivvård är de 17 i Sverige enligt helgens siffror, att jämföra med tre i Danmark, tre i Norge och en i Finland. (alla uppgifter från FHM eller motsvarande, utom antalet inlagda på sjukhus i Norge som kommer från tidningen Adresseavisen).
Senaste nytt om coronaviruset (SVT.se, Sep. 14, 2020 – 1:50)
It is wise to study several different variables to get a nuanced picture of the development. Sweden had 105 hospitaliztions on Friday, according to the Public Health Agency (FHM). Comparable numbers in our neighbouring countries are 28 in Denmark, 16 in Norway and 8 in Finland. If we look at the numbers of patients in ICUs, they are 17 in Sweden according to the numbers from this weekend, in comparison to 3 in Denmark, 3 in Norway and 1 in Finland. (all the information is from FHM or similar agencies, except for the number of people hospitalized in Norway, which is from the newspaper Adresseavisen.)
Latest news about the coronavirus - The number of hospitalizations in Denmark is actually higher, 50, and there are 4 patients in ICUs, one of those on a ventilator.

Another reader asks about testing, and SVT.se answers:
Quote:
Enligt de här uppgifterna testades i snitt 1,78 personer per tusen invånare dagligen i Sverige första veckan i september, att jämföra med 1,53 i Finland, 2,02 i Norge och 5,67 i Danmark. Flera andra länder ligger under Sverige, däribland Kanada, Nederländerna och Österrike.
Senaste nytt om coronaviruset (SVT.se, Sep. 13, 2020 – 23:37)
According to this information, on average 1.78 a day of 1,000 people in Sweden were tested in the first week of September, in comparison to 2.53 in Finland, 2.02 in Norway and 5.67 in Denmark. Several countries test fewer than Sweden, for instance Canada, the Netherlands and Austria.
Latest news about the coronavirus This difference was forgotten by the Swedish media yesterday when they were so excited about Norway's slightly higher number of new cases per capita than Sweden. And Stockholm now tells people to only get tested if they have symptoms: "Only if you are ill with symptoms of Covid-19 are you encouraged to book a time for testing (PCR test)."

Denmark:
Quote:
Ekspert: For høje smittetal
Der er 347 nye smittetilfælde mandag.
- Det er stabilt, men det er stabilt på et for højt niveau efter min opfattelse. Og nu begynder vi også at se, at antallet af indlæggelser langsomt stiger. Det kan gå meget hurtigt, siger han.
Seneste nyt om coronavirus (DR.dk, Sep. 14, 2020 – 14:20)
Expert: Too many new infections
- The number is stable, but stable at a level that is too high, in my opinion. And now we are beginning to see the number of hospitalizations rise.
It may go very fast.
Latest news about the coronavirus

347 nye smittede -og nu er smitten ikke længere begrænset til de unge, siger ekspert (TV2.dk, Sep. 14, 2020)
347 new cases - and they are no longer limited to young people, expert says

Der skal reageres nu, siger Statens Serum Institut om smittespredningen (TV2.dk, Sep. 14, 2020)
We have to react now, says Statens Serum Institut about the current spread of the virus

Professor om smittetallene: Københavnsk natteliv bør lukkes helt ned (DR.dk, Sep. 14, 2020)
Professor about the number of new cases: Nightlife in Copenhagen should be locked down completely - I agree. It was too much to have schools and universities reopen more or less at the same time as the extension of the opening hours of bars. More restrictions are necessary in Copenhagen (and Frederiksberg), and as soon as possible.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th September 2020, 09:55 AM   #2105
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,085
Tuesday:
Coronavirus - countries (Worldometers, Sep. 15, 2020)
Deaths per million (Total deaths) New cases Serious/Critical
Sweden: 579 (5,851) 840* 17** *since Friday, according to SVT.se **134 Covid-19 patients hospitalized in addition to the 17 in ICUs
Denmark: 109 (633) 334 4 – 55 hospitalized, R0 1.5
Finland: 61 (339) 98 3
Norway: 49 (265) 54 1
Iceland: 29 (10) 6 0
Iceland has 62 active cases, Faroe Islands 16, New Zealand 83.
The Faroe Islands have 57 in quarantine, 0 hospitalized, and all tests from yesterday analyzed.
Quote:
Four people were infected domestically and have been identified as belonging to the same known chain of infection.
The fifth person is a non-Faroese resident, who tested positive upon arrival at Vágar Airport.
Five new Covid-19 cases (KVF.fo, Sep. 15, 2020)
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th September 2020, 11:47 AM   #2106
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,085
Quote:
Att Sverige haft få sjukhusinläggningar och få dödsfall de senaste månaderna, visar att det inte var den svenska strategin som orsakade Sveriges många döda i covid-19. Det säger statsepidemiolog Anders Tegnell till fransk tv.
Tegnell: Sveriges strategi inte orsak till dödstalet (SydsvenskaDagbladet.se, Sep. 13, 2020)
That Sweden has had few hospitalizations and few deaths in recent months shows that the Swedish strategy wasn't the cause of the many deaths from Covid-19, says national epidemiologist Anders Tegnell to French TV.
Tegnell: Sweden’s strategy didn’t cause the death toll

Quote:
Today, with low mortality and a falling number of Covid-19 cases, Dr. Anders Tegnell, the architect of this strategy, hails the policy and says he has "some confidence" for the future.
Sweden’s chief epidemiologist: 'We are happy with our strategy' on Covid-19 (France24, Sep. 11, 2020)

France 24, Sep. 11, 2020 (13:04): Sweden's chief epidemiologist: 'We are happy with our strategy' on Covid-19 (Interview in English)
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


France 24, Sep. 2, 2020 (1:20): Sweden's top epidemiologist is refusing to recommend face masks (in English)
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th September 2020, 11:52 AM   #2107
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,085
And speaking of face masks. Three interesting articles:

Forskare: Mer tyder på att munskydden hjälper (Aftonbladet.se, Sep. 13, 2020)
Researchers: More things seem to indicate that face masks help

Face masks could be giving people Covid-19 immunity, researchers suggest (Telegraph, Sep. 12, 2020)
Viral load: How much of the virus does it take to make us sick? (Telegraph, Sep. 3, 2020)
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th September 2020, 12:16 PM   #2108
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,085
Nye restriktioner i Storkøbenhavn: Mundbind på restauranter og natteliv skal lukke (DR.dk, Sep. 15, 2020)
New restrictions in the Copenhagen area: Facemasks in restaurants and nightlife to close at 10 p.m. - The Copenhagen area consists of Copenhagen proper, Frederiksberg and 15 suburbs. Facemasks are to be worn at cafés and bars, too.

Mølbak: Find fem eller ti personer at ses med i efteråret (TV2.dk, Sep. 15, 2020)
Mølbak: Find five or ten people to meet this autumn For the coming autumn and winter, the leader of the Statens Serum Institut recommends that people limit socializing to no more than a small 'bubble' of five to ten people.
A socialist party wants to do a similar thing with schools and nursing homes: split them up in small units to make it easier to track contacts and limit the number of students and teachers that need to sent home to self-quarantine when there is an outbreak:


SF vil hindre smitte med små grupper på skoler og plejehjem (TV2.dk, Sep. 15, 2020)
Socialist People's Party wants to prevent virus transmission by means of small groups at schools and in nursing homes
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 04:41 AM   #2109
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,085
Quote:
Det är dock uppenbart att grannlandet hittills klarat sig betydligt bättre under pandemin med 265 avlidna jämfört med 5 851 i Sverige. Frode Forland tror att förklaringen är den snabba nedstängningen av samhället i mars.
– Vi slog till hårt i mars och med bra tajming. Hela samhället förstod att det var allvar och vi fick en snabb effekt. Jag tror att det är förklaringen till att vi har färre döda i Norge än i Sverige.
Snabb nedstängning innebar färre smittade i samhället, och därmed minskade risken för att coronaviruset skulle nå fram till äldre och riskgrupper, säger han.
– Vi har ungefär samma nivå andel döda på äldreboenden och sjukhem som i Sverige, 50-60 procent. Om man håller trycket nere i samhället som sådant blir det färre som avlider på institutionerna.
Norges ”Tegnell”: Därför har vi färre döda i Norge än i Sverige (SVT.se, Sep. 16, 2020)
However, it is obvious that the neighboring country (Norway) has so far fared significantly better during the pandemic with 265 deaths compared to 5,851 in Sweden. Frode Forland believes that the explanation is the fast lockdown of society in March.
– We struck hard in March and with good timing. The whole community understood that it was serious and we got a fast impact. I think that this is the reason why we have fewer deaths in Norway than in Sweden.
The fast lockdown meant fewer infections in society, and thus we reduced the risk that the coronavirus would reach the elderly and risk groups, he says.
- We have about the same percentage of deaths in homes for the elderly and in nursing homes as in Sweden, 50-60 percent. If you keep the pressure of infection down in society as such, fewer people will die in the institutions.
Norway’s ”Tegnell”: This is why we have fewer deaths in Norway than in Sweden


Quote:
Sverige har hånats, kallats för karikatyr och skällts ut för sin unika coronastrategi. Nu följer alla länder i Europa den svenska modellen – men ingen skulle våga erkänna det, säger ledande virusexperter som SvD har talat med.
Revanschen: I dag följer alla Sveriges strategi (SvenskaDagbladet.se, Sep. 12, 2020)
Sweden has been mocked, called a caricature and scolded for its unique corona strategy. Now all countries in Europe follow the Swedish model - but no one would dare to admit it, say leading virus experts that SvD has spoken to.
The revenge: Today, everybody is following Sweden's strategy

- It is obvious that they want to believe this, but I am not sure if they actually do. The rest of the article is behind a paywall, but it begins like this:
Quote:
På långfredagen i år höll Donald Trump en av sina många presskonferenser om coronaviruset.
– Om vi följde den svenska strategin skulle vi få två miljoner döda. Sverige har stora svårigheter. Sverige lider enormt. Jag menar, Sverige lider enormt, sade USA:s president.
On Good Friday this year, Donald Trump held one of his many press briefings on the corona virus.
– If we followed the Swedish strategy, we would get two million deaths. Sweden has great difficulties. Sweden is suffering enormously. I mean, Sweden is suffering very gravely, said the President of the United States.

– If the article concludes that the USA is now following the Swedish strategy, it should also be possible for the journalist to recognize that the number of Covid-19 deaths in the USA is an unmitigated disaster.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 11:04 AM   #2110
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,085
Wednesday:
Coronavirus - countries (Worldometers, Sep. 16, 2020)
Deaths per million (Total deaths) New cases Serious/Critical
Sweden: 579 (5,860) 230* 15 *according to SVT.se
Denmark: 109 (633) 334 4 Due to technical difficulties, the Danish numbers won’t be updated till tomorrow, Thursday
Finland: 61 (339) 25 3
Norway: 49 (265) 38 1
Iceland: 29 (10) 15 0
Iceland has 75 active cases, Faroe Islands 16, New Zealand 79.
The Faroe Islands have 59 in quarantine, 0 hospitalized, and all tests from yesterday analyzed.
Quote:
Two more people have been quarantined, bringing this total up to 59.
No-one is currently undergoing hospital treatment for Covid-19.
The daily number of positive Covid tests over the past week has been as follows: 1, 1, 0, 2, 5, 0, 5 and 0.
More than 111,000 tests have been carried out in the Faroes since the outbreak in March.
No new Covid cases (KVO.fo, Sep. 16, 2020)

Denmark:
Regeringen ser på smittetal med 'tilbageholdt åndedræt’ (TV2.dk, Sep. 16, 2020 – 17:26)
The government is watching the number of new cases while ’holding its breath’ - i.e. it hopes that the new restrictions in the Copenhagen area are enough to bring down the level of transmission, the same way recent local measures have been successful in Aarhus and Odense.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th September 2020, 02:05 AM   #2111
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,085
Quote:
Sveriges høje coronadødstal kan delvist forklares med, at der var en mild influenzasæson i 2019, mener statsepidemiolog Anders Tegnell.
Han siger, at den milde sæson medførte, at mange syge og svagelige, som sædvanligvis dør under en influenzaepidemi, overlevede. De døde i stedet under coronapandemien. Det siger Tegnell til Dagens Nyheter.
- Det, som man nu har set, er, at de lande, som har haft en ret så lav dødelighed af influenza i de seneste to eller tre år som for eksempel Sverige - har en vældig høj overdødelighed af Covid-19. Det siger den svenske statsepidemiolog.
- Mens de lande, som havde høj influenzadødelighed de to seneste vintre som for eksempel Norge, har haft en ganske lav covid-dødelighed. Man har set samme tendens i flere andre lande. Dette er måske ikke hele forklaringen, men en del af den, mener Tegnell.
Mild influenzasæson forhøjede svenske coronadødstal (BT/Reuters, Sep. 17, 2020)
Sweden’s high Covid-19 death toll can in part be explained by the mild flu season of 2019, national epidemiologist Anders Tegnell thinks.
He says that the mild season meant that many sick and weak people who usually die in a flu epidemic survived. They died in the corona pandemic instead, according to Tegnell.
- What we have seen is that the countries that had a rather low mortality rate from influenza in the last two or three years, like for instance Sweden, have a very high excess mortality from Covid-19, the Swedish national epicemiologist says.
- Whereas the countries that had a high rate of mortality from influenza the last two winters, like for instance Norway, have had a very low rate of mortality from Covid-19. We have seen the same tendency in several other countries. It may not be the whole explanation, but it is a part of it, Tegnell thinks.
Mild flu season increased the Swedish Covid-19 death toll

If only this ******* spent as much time trying to improve the Swedish pandemic response as he does trying to come up with more dumb excuses for his failed strategy, immense suffering could have been prevented and thousands of lives could have been saved.
Why does he think so many people in Sweden got infected in comparison to the number in Norway?



ETA:
Quote:
Swedish State Epidemiologist Anders Tegnellin According to last year’s mild flu season largely explains the country’s high coronary death rate. There is a strong link between low flu-related mortality and covid-19 mortality, Tegnell says to Today news in an interview with the magazine.
Sweden’s Tegnell Finds New Cause of High Coronary Death: Last Year’s Mild Flu – Abroad (en24news, Sep. 17, 2020)

Today news in the quotation above is actually the Swedish newspaper Dagens Nyheter:
Tegnells förklaring: Därför dog så många tidigt i Sverige (DagensNyheter.se, Sep. 17, 2020)
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 17th September 2020 at 02:15 AM.
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th September 2020, 10:44 AM   #2112
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,085
Finnish health boss disagrees with Tegnell's explanation for Sweden's many Covid-19 deaths quoted in post 2111 above:

Quote:
– Det kan förklara en del av saken men jag tror inte skillnaden mellan Finland och Sverige hänger på det, säger han till DN.
Finlands hälsosäkerhetschef delar inte Tegnells influensateori fullt ut (DagensNyheter.se, Sep. 17, 2020)
– It may explain part of it, but I don’t thnk the difference between Finland and Sweden is due to that, he says to DN.
Finland’s director of health safety doesn’t fully agree with Tegnell’s flu theory
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th September 2020, 09:34 PM   #2113
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,085
Thursday:
Coronavirus - countries (Worldometers, Sep. 17, 2020)
Deaths per million (Total deaths) New cases Serious/Critical
Sweden: 580 (5,865) 310* 15 *according to SVT.se
[strike]Denmark: 110 (635) 453* 3 *822 since Tuesday
Finland: 61 (339) 49 3
Norway: 49 (266) 73 1
Iceland: 29 (10) 17 0
Iceland has 84 active cases, Faroe Islands 17, New Zealand 77.
The Faroe Islands have 60 in quarantine, 0 hospitalized, and all tests from yesterday analyzed.
One new Covid case (KVO.fo, Sep. 17, 2020)


Knap hver tredje indlagt med corona er under 45: ’Det er ikke længere gratis at blive smittet’ (DR.dk, Sep. 17, 2020)
Almost every third person hospitalized is younger than 45: ’It is no longer without consequences to get infected’ - When the number of hospitalizations peaked in April, only 7.5 percent were younger than 45. Back then, 55 percent were older than 75. Now it’s 35 percent.

Smittegrænse overskredet: Danmark ville nu selv fraråde rejser til Danmark (TV2.dk, Sep. 17, 2020)
The limit has now been crossed. With the number of new infections, Denmark would now advise against travelling to Denmark - Denmark has had 30.02 new cases per 100,000 in the last 7 days

- Vi er nødt til at sætte vores liv på pause (TV2.dk, Sep. 17, 2020)
- We have to pause our lives - says the mayor of Copenhagen

1,3 millioner danskere skal testes for antistoffer mod corona (DR.dk, Sep. 17, 2020)
1.3 million Danes to be tested for antibodies against coronavirus

Bill Gates: Sveriges coronastrategi var ett misstag (Di-TV.se, Sep. 17, 2020)
Bill Gates: Sweden’s corona strategy was a mistake
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th September 2020, 01:20 PM   #2114
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,085
After the leading epidemiologists in both Norway and Finland have criticized Anders Tegnell, Tegnell now resorts to his old excuse: It's much too soon to compare the different strategies:
Tegnell: ”För tidigt för att jämföra länder” (SVT.se, Sep. 18, 2020)
Tegnell: ”Too early to compare with other countries”

One Danish expert is ready to forget about Sweden’s death toll now that the number of new cases has decreased:
Sverige løsner coronagreb efter succesfulde uger: 'Svenskerne har lidt heldigt knækket koden' (DR.dk, Sep. 18, 2020)
Sweden loosens its corona grip after successful weeks: ’The Swedes have cracked the code’

I'm pleased to see that the Danish government is not impressed by Sweden's 'herd mentality':
Quote:
- Vi kommer ikke til at tænke, at hvis man har en vis alder, så må man ryge i svinget, fordi der er kommet en global økonomi, siger Mette Frederiksen.
Coronavirus - Live (EkstraBladet.dk, Sep. 18, 2020 – 14:46)
- We won’t start thinking that if you have reached a certain age, then it’s your time to go because the economy is globalized, Mette Frederiksen says.
Coronavirus - Live

14 procent af de indlagte er under 30 år (TV2.dk, Sep. 18, 2020 – 14:15)
14 percent of hospitalized Covid-19 patients are now younger than 30 - In total, 58 are now hospitalized, two fewer than yesterday. And new restrictions for the whole country; basically, the restrictions that are already in place in the Copenhagen area will now apply to the whole country: restaurants, bars etc. close at 10 p.m.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th September 2020, 01:22 PM   #2115
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,085
Friday:
Coronavirus - countries (Worldometers, Sep. 18, 2020)
Deaths per million (Total deaths) New cases Serious/Critical
Sweden: 580 (5,865) 352* 15 *according to SVT.se
Denmark: 110 (635) 454 3
Finland: 61 (339) 59 3
Norway: 49 (266) 73* 1 *68 of the new cases in Norway are in Oslo (BT, Sep. 18, 2020 – 13:37)
Iceland: 29 (10) 24 0
Iceland has 108 active cases, Faroe Islands 18, New Zealand 77. Iceland is locking down all bars and discos in the capital.
The Faroe Islands have 59 in quarantine, 0 hospitalized, and all tests from yesterday analyzed.
Quote:
Hundreds of Faroese people travel to and from Denmark every week, and most of these are young students who lead active social lives, he says.
This is clearly reflected in the Faroese Covid statistics, where the 20-29 age group dominates the figures, with 59 cases registered, followed by the 10-19s and the 40-49s (20) and the 30s-39s (19).
Doctor: young people play crucial Covid role (KVO.fo, Sep. 18, 2020)
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 09:56 AM   #2116
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,085
Saturday:
Coronavirus - countries (Worldometers, Sep. 19, 2020)
Deaths per million (Total deaths) New cases Serious/Critical
Sweden: 580 (5,865) 352* 15 *according to SVT.se No new numbers till Tuesday.
Denmark: 110 (635) 589* 4 * Still rising dramatically, and the effects of the new restrictions aren’t to be expected for another week.
Finland: 61 (339) 64 3
Norway: 49 (266) 51* 2 *68 of those in Oslo (BT, Sep. 18, 2020 – 13:37)
Iceland: 29 (10) 77 0
Iceland has 181 active cases, Faroe Islands 19, New Zealand 67.
The Faroe Islands have 59 in quarantine, 0 hospitalized, and all tests from yesterday analyzed.

Geographical spread – weeks 31 to 34 (Danish police chief on Twitter, Sep. 19, 2020)

Fødselsdagsfest udviklede sig til superspreder: - Vi fulgte alle retningslinjer (TV2.dk, Sep. 19, 2020)
Birthday party turned into as superspreader event: - We followed all the guidelines - 45 of 66 got infected

62 Covid-19 patients are now hospitalized – the highest number in three months (TV2.dk, Sep. 19, 2020 – 13:48)
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 10:55 AM   #2117
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 45,901
Scotland had 350 new infections reported yesterday. This is appalling and we're heading for tighter restrictions which won't work because they won't be enforced so there will be another lockdown and again it won't work because people have got the message that nothing is being enforced.

People are being politely asked to quarantine themselves if they've come back from certain foreign destinations, but few checks are made to ensure they're doing it and even fewer punishments are meted out. Restrictions on meeting other people have been announced and immediately undermined by the police announcing that they're going to be using "light touch" enforcement, which means that really huge parties, raves and so on might attract a fine but even if you're caught with a dozen people from different households in your house (you're very unlikely to be caught) the worst that's going to happen is that the police issue some "advice", you say sorry, and that's the end of it.

There have been no restrictions on travel within Britain. None at all. There have been people from heavily infected areas hundreds of miles away going on holiday to islands that hadn't had a case in months, and the virus is back in now. Friends of mine who live in one of the lock-down zones in Yorkshire travelled, quite legally, to their second home in Argyll. They're actually not a danger, they're retired and have scarcely gone out, and they intend to follow the instructions that people who live in a lock-down zone shouldn't visit other people even in non-lockdown zones, but really, should this be allowed in principle?

Unless we get some sane restrictions including travel limits and 2-metre distancing as a blanket rule everywhere, and these are rigorously enforced, I don't think we have a hope in hell of avoiding a repeat of March and April. The only small chink of hope is that if masks and distancing are partially observed, more cases may be mild so there could be fewer deaths.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 03:11 PM   #2118
Tippit
Master Poster
 
Tippit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,823
I value freedom more than safety, to the extent that I favor an almost laissez-faire approach to covid-19. It's likely that the Covid death toll in the US this year will be somewhere around 300k, given models of current policies and interventions. This is a fraction of the 1.2m who are expected to die from cancer and heart disease combined, and yet, life as we know it has been brought to a halt by the draconian responses. With the benefit of hindsight, and given everything we know up until now, shouldn't Sweden's and every other countries' approach be judged by a metric of cost-beneficiality, such as QALYs (quality adjusted life years), as opposed to metrics like infection rates, and deaths per million? Virtually every other healthcare intervention is driven by this metric, so why the exception for this disease?

Edited by Agatha:  Edited to remove material sent to the Vitamin C thread.
What's the cost of living in perpetual fear? The burden and psychological consequences of wearing masks everywhere, forcing them on children, and maintaining social distance also have enormous costs, not to mention other financial and social costs which are overlooked by <gasp> morbidity stats. We've responded to a disease with a death rate that is a small multiple of the influenza virus, with interventions appropriate for a disease more like MERS, with a 33% death rate. It's absolutely insane.

We could eliminate automotive accident fatalities by banning cars and trucks (with massive consequences) and get those death rates down to zero, but at what cost? We could take the Chinese approach and barricade Covid victims in their houses, and sharply reduce infection and mortality rates even more than current interventions, but at what cost?

Quote me QALYs, not death rates. If the Swedish Quality of Life has remained more or less the same in the face of a panicked world, then their approach has been successful.
__________________
"The issue which has swept down the centuries and which will have to be fought sooner or later is the people versus the banks."
- Lord Acton

Last edited by Agatha; Today at 09:24 AM.
Tippit is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 03:26 PM   #2119
Elagabalus
Philosopher
 
Elagabalus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 6,254
Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
I value freedom more than safety, ....

<<<SNIP>>>>

Quote me QALYs, not death rates. If the Swedish Quality of Life has remained more or less the same in the face of a panicked world, then their approach has been successful.
YAWN

The Covid-19 thread is up in SMM&T thread.

Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
...Quote me QALYs, not death rates...

No. Do your own heavy lifting.
Elagabalus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 11:09 PM   #2120
steenkh
Philosopher
 
steenkh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Denmark
Posts: 5,962
Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
I value freedom more than safety[…]
Strange how my freedom from being infected is worth less than your freedom to infect ...
__________________
Steen

--
Jack of all trades - master of none!
steenkh is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:08 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.