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Old 12th September 2020, 11:54 PM   #1
cullennz
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Tickling - Harmless laugh with ya kid or child abuse?

While I agree if the kid doesn't like it then stop as you are being a prat and frankly a bit odd, this seems a bit OTT.

Think the bigger issue is why random people's posts now make NZ National news

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle...ectid=12364456

Quote:
Mum's claim that tickling is child abuse divides the internet

A mum's extreme view on social media has divided the internet, as she has controversially claimed that tickling should be considered "child abuse".

According to the mother, if a child does not consent to tickling, the parent should stop immediately.

If not, it should be construed as an act of child abuse.

"If they [kids] come looking for it/ask for it, they like it [tickling]," she wrote in a message to another mum, which has since been widely shared on Facebook.

"It's about consent and you are teaching them their body, their rules."

The other parent was taken aback.

"So it'd be child abuse to do it to my kids?" the parent replied in the text message exchange.

They pointed out that most kids are extremely fickle and will change their mind constantly.

"They will literally tell you to stop, then immediately ask to be tickled more."

"Stop when they ask you to stop."...............
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Old 13th September 2020, 12:14 AM   #2
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Quote:
"Stop when they ask you to stop."
That lesson can be applied to oh so many interactions.
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Old 13th September 2020, 06:45 AM   #3
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Two thoughts

1) it is pretty amazing how quickly one side backed into a, "no means yes" position on autonomy in the quoted position. I'm hoping the article just failed to capture the person was ironic when they said kids are fickle and implied that is why you can ignore their protestations.

2) what are we afraid they are going to learn? That authority is capricious, cruel, and does not recognize your autonomy? That seems like the lesson a parent is supposed to teach.
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Old 13th September 2020, 06:47 AM   #4
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"Oh I would be such a shame if we had an actual discussion about the rightness or wrongness of this action, but no let's start the discussion as OMG WAS THIS ONE TERM USED CORRECTLY? knowing full well that if a discussion starts there it will never go anywhere else."

I love how many discussion we refuse to have until one person someone is found using hyperbolic language about and then we'll only have the discussion within the context of debating the use of the language.
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Old 13th September 2020, 06:53 AM   #5
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What with the inherent endorphine/dopamine release, you are probably teaching addictive cheap gratification.
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Old 13th September 2020, 06:59 AM   #6
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I'd wager we could dig up the old "Girl Scouts ask parents to stop making their children hug people if they don't want to" thread and already have about 90% of any potential discussion here already complete.
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Old 13th September 2020, 08:04 AM   #7
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"Divided the Internet."

LOL.
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Old 13th September 2020, 08:09 AM   #8
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Has the whole world just decided there's no place for context anymore?
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Old 13th September 2020, 08:42 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Has the whole world just decided there's no place for context anymore?
What context do you see as not being considered?
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Old 13th September 2020, 09:10 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
While I agree if the kid doesn't like it then stop as you are being a prat and frankly a bit odd, this seems a bit OTT.

Think the bigger issue is why random people's posts now make NZ National news

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle...ectid=12364456
Because people like you will increase the number of hits their pages receive and therefore they will gain more revenue.

If you want to see less of these types of stories being run stop clicking on them and sending links for other people to link on them.
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Old 13th September 2020, 12:25 PM   #11
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This mum must have taken "tickle torture" a little bit more literally than she should...
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Old 13th September 2020, 01:20 PM   #12
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As someone who was tickled to the verge of vomiting, I would say, if a child begs for it to stop, STOP! And think twice about ever starting again with that child.
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Old 13th September 2020, 01:37 PM   #13
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Just like with spanking: the people who are most solidly in favor of it lose their goddamn minds when you do it to them. They want to dish it out but not take it.
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Old 13th September 2020, 08:33 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Just like with spanking: the people who are most solidly in favor of it lose their goddamn minds when you do it to them. They want to dish it out but not take it.
You're saying people who like to tickle don't like to be tickled themselves?

What evidence do you have for that?
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Old 13th September 2020, 08:55 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by ThatGuy11200 View Post
You're saying people who like to tickle don't like to be tickled themselves?
I'm saying the people who say tickling is fine would object if I did it to them. They'd want to control the who, what, where, and when-- a courtesy they don't always extend to the people they tickle.
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Old 14th September 2020, 05:48 AM   #16
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//doublepost//
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Old 14th September 2020, 05:56 AM   #17
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A weird subsection of adults seem to take an odd, sadistic glee in forcing children into situations they don't like because they find the child's discomfort "adorable."

Like I (think I) mentioned during the previous and somewhat similar "Should we make children hug relatives when they don't want to" discussion when I was a wee little tyke even though I didn't like being expected to hug relatives I didn't outright hate it or see as some affront to my personal integrity.

What I did absolutely hate was that moment when I would hug a relative and they would hold the hug just long enough for me to make it clear that I didn't like it anymore and then would obviously intentionally hold it for just one extra second or two just to, well spite me basically, often with a cutesy-poo comment added.
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Old 14th September 2020, 06:51 AM   #18
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I absolutely loathe being tickled, and I have a weird OCD type of bad reaction to having my stomach-and especially my belly button-touched, even if it's my wife doing said touching.

That being said, calling something like this child abuse completely dilutes an important term. As Phil Plait once opined, just "don't be a dick."
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Old 14th September 2020, 09:44 AM   #19
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I don't understand tickling as a thing. It feels horrible to me, worse than pain even. I don't get why people do it. I can only assume it doesn't feel the same way to everyone. Perhaps the people who seem hyperbolic in their denouncing of tickling are also people for whom it feels like pain. That would explain why different factions see the issue so differently.

As a kid, my family figured out I hated it early on, so no one did it to me. I guess I was lucky that way.

I just thought of something else - there probably are instances where some adult might use tickling kids as an excuse to engage in general inappropriate touching. So it's likely a good thing to tell kids that if tickling makes them feel uncomfortable, they can tell the person to stop.

"Child abuse" is a strong term, yeah. But if the woman making the claim views tickling as holding a kid down and forcing pain upon him/her (which is how some people experience it), then it probably seemed like the right term to her.
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Old 14th September 2020, 09:57 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Butter! View Post
I don't understand tickling as a thing. It feels horrible to me, worse than pain even. I don't get why people do it. I can only assume it doesn't feel the same way to everyone. Perhaps the people who seem hyperbolic in their denouncing of tickling are also people for whom it feels like pain. That would explain why different factions see the issue so differently.

As a kid, my family figured out I hated it early on, so no one did it to me. I guess I was lucky that way.

I just thought of something else - there probably are instances where some adult might use tickling kids as an excuse to engage in general inappropriate touching. So it's likely a good thing to tell kids that if tickling makes them feel uncomfortable, they can tell the person to stop.

"Child abuse" is a strong term, yeah. But if the woman making the claim views tickling as holding a kid down and forcing pain upon him/her (which is how some people experience it), then it probably seemed like the right term to her.
I am guessing you did not laugh uncontrollably when tickled?

I am not on the "tickling is abuse" side of the argument, but I doubt I would continue tickling a child who was not laughing.
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Old 14th September 2020, 10:04 AM   #21
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I wouldn't keep tickling a child who asked me to stop just because they were laughing. Laughing is not always 100% a pure voluntary "Oh this is making me happy" response.

In fact the whole "pester the person until the nervously grin or chuckle thing, then act like that means they were in on it the whole time" is a well worn bully and power-play tactic with some people.
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Old 14th September 2020, 10:34 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
I am guessing you did not laugh uncontrollably when tickled?

I am not on the "tickling is abuse" side of the argument, but I doubt I would continue tickling a child who was not laughing.
The laugh response seems to be somewhat involuntary for me. It's very odd. Yes, I would laugh, but I would also be screaming at the same time. And when the person stopped, I was usually crying.

I think it's pretty simple, really. Don't tickle people who say they don't like it. Like I said, I'm convinced it doesn't feel the same for everyone, so people should just take others at their word if they say they dislike it. There shouldn't be any need for a big debate, but the internet loves to get a hold of stuff like this, haha.

"It's abuse! You're a MONSTER!"

"Abuse? Are you crazy? They're laughing and having fun! You helicopter people have gone too far!"

"You're denying their agency!"

"You're projecting your weird boundary issues onto innocent kids!"

"Rahhhr! Rahhhhr!"

"Raaaaahhhhrrr!"

"THE GOD DAMN DRESS IS BLUE."
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Old 14th September 2020, 10:42 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
I am guessing you did not laugh uncontrollably when tickled?

I am not on the "tickling is abuse" side of the argument, but I doubt I would continue tickling a child who was not laughing.
No, you didn't, you stopped. But I began laughing on the inside because I knew I had won!! Bwahahahahahahahaha!!!!


Also not being ticklish means that it doesn't occur to me to attempt tickling someone else because I just figure they're not ticklish.
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Old 14th September 2020, 11:13 AM   #24
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Why Dogs Shake Their Hind Leg When You Rub Their Belly

This is from something called Australian Pooch Mobile Dog Washing and Grooming, but I've seen the claim elsewhere. They might learn to like it because they know you do.

This reminds me of something Cesar Millan wrote about knowing the difference between a happy dog and an excited one. Dog excitement often delights humans, but it can be a sign of anxiety in the dog. I never liked being tickled; the laughter was a reflex, not a sign of pleasure. Someone holding your body while you squirm uncomfortably during a "game" could indeed be grooming IMO.

ETA: It's true some dogs (and cats!) demand tummy rubs, but I think there's a difference between a stroke and a scratch.

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Old 14th September 2020, 11:27 AM   #25
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I'm wondering if Butter is onto something. My mother is one of those mothers that would cut her own kidney out for her kids, but when we were kids if we tried to tickle her foot she'd have kicked us to death if we didn't stop! I asked her about it and she said it was like having needles inserted into her foot. I can be tickled but I'm not very ticklish and it can be - depending on the circumstances - a fun thing or annoying, but it certainly isn't painful.
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Old 14th September 2020, 01:56 PM   #26
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I don't think child abuse is far off the mark. You are touching the child's body when they don't want you to. If the child expresses a desire for the discomfort they are experiencing to stop and you don't stop -yeah, that's abusive. You are expressing your dominence over the child and taking away their autonomy.
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Old 14th September 2020, 04:37 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Just like with spanking: the people who are most solidly in favor of it lose their goddamn minds when you do it to them. They want to dish it out but not take it.
I honestly read “speaking.”

Point still stands
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Old 15th September 2020, 02:02 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Carlotta View Post
As someone who was tickled to the verge of vomiting, I would say, if a child begs for it to stop, STOP! And think twice about ever starting again with that child.
This is a fuzzy one. I've also been tickled to the verge of vomiting, which is well beyond the point where laughter becomes tears and distress. I think there's probably a common-sense range in there where normal people will realize that they've had enough tickling and let up.

I don't think tickling is by definition bad, and I don't even think that tickling when a kid immediately yells stop is bad. But there's definitely a point where it is no longer fun and is genuinely terrifying.

Having been pinned down by someone much larger than me and tickled to that point several times as a kid... i react very negatively to being tickled as an adult. It is not at all fun, or flirtatious, or foreplay with me. It's likely to result in me physically fighting to get free and then being angry for several hours afterwards.
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Old 15th September 2020, 02:06 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
I am guessing you did not laugh uncontrollably when tickled?
I don't know that this is related. I find tickling to be horrible too. It doesn't feel good. I don't view it as pain, exactly, but it's completely unpleasant to me. But i still laughed uncontrollably - that's a physical reaction. But it was never laughter of enjoyment.
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Old 15th September 2020, 02:23 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"Oh I would be such a shame if we had an actual discussion about the rightness or wrongness of this action, but no let's start the discussion as OMG WAS THIS ONE TERM USED CORRECTLY? knowing full well that if a discussion starts there it will never go anywhere else."

I love how many discussion we refuse to have until one person someone is found using hyperbolic language about and then we'll only have the discussion within the context of debating the use of the language.
We can always rely on commentary from the forum’s Howard Cosell.
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Old 15th September 2020, 03:05 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"Oh I would be such a shame if we had an actual discussion about the rightness or wrongness of this action, but no let's start the discussion as OMG WAS THIS ONE TERM USED CORRECTLY? knowing full well that if a discussion starts there it will never go anywhere else."

I love how many discussion we refuse to have until one person someone is found using hyperbolic language about and then we'll only have the discussion within the context of debating the use of the language.
I love how many conversations don't go in the direction you're so irritated about until you drag them there...
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Old 16th September 2020, 11:28 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
While I agree if the kid doesn't like it then stop as you are being a prat and frankly a bit odd, this seems a bit OTT.

Think the bigger issue is why random people's posts now make NZ National news

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle...ectid=12364456

Quote:
A mum's extreme view on social media
No bias in reporting there, then.
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Old 16th September 2020, 11:31 PM   #33
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The idea is not to stop when the child says.

You should ask the child first if they want to be tickled.

Otherwise, you don't teach the child a person's body is their own.

Should I really have to stress how important that is?
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Old 17th September 2020, 10:43 AM   #34
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I'm with you on that conceptually... but I'm also unclear on how you balance teaching bodily autonomy with things like... getting their childhood shots, being picked up and moved by parents when they're misbehaving, etc.
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Old 17th September 2020, 10:47 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
The idea is not to stop when the child says.

You should ask the child first if they want to be tickled.

Otherwise, you don't teach the child a person's body is their own.

Should I really have to stress how important that is?
What child are we talking about here?
A family member?, Close friend?, or strangers' kid?
The rules are different for each.
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Old 17th September 2020, 08:09 PM   #36
Orphia Nay
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I'm with you on that conceptually... but I'm also unclear on how you balance teaching bodily autonomy with things like... getting their childhood shots, being picked up and moved by parents when they're misbehaving, etc.
I'm not the authority, I just have one child.

I'd say to use reason.


Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
What child are we talking about here?
A family member?, Close friend?, or strangers' kid?
The rules are different for each.
Again, use reason, and your conscience.

I'd still say it applies to a family member. That would include, say, drunk uncles.
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Old 18th September 2020, 04:56 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
I'm not the authority, I just have one child.

I'd say to use reason.




Again, use reason, and your conscience.

I'd still say it applies to a family member. That would include, say, drunk uncles.
"Use reason and your conscience" - good advice, but a bit vague, no? Especially if the consequences are as dire as you suggest.

Perhaps an assertion that tickling without asking first, and not immediately stopping upon request, has severely detrimental consequences- or is (as asserted above) some kind of "grooming" behavior- is such a broad blanket that asserting it with such scant evidence is a tad irresponsible in and of itself?
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Old 18th September 2020, 06:20 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I'm with you on that conceptually... but I'm also unclear on how you balance teaching bodily autonomy with things like... getting their childhood shots, being picked up and moved by parents when they're misbehaving, etc.
Those things are necessary. Tickling a child is not. "Oh so I don't tickle a child who doesn't want to what's next I can't get my children shots?" seems rather slippery slopery.

As always if you want argue about "balancing the scales" or "going too far in the other direction" or similar concepts you have to argue what exactly is on the other side of the scale we have to balance.

I'm not particularly worried about the nightmare hellscape of a world where the only problem is "Children aren't being tickled enough."
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Old 18th September 2020, 06:26 AM   #39
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Possibly related....

Forcible tickling is a fairly common practice in BDSM circles.... Dominance/submission play.

Some years back, I read a book titled “The English Vice”, which talked about the high incidence of “corporal punishment” used in that same context. The book made a pretty good case tying that to the very widespread use of caning/spanking in the English school system at the time. This was often done to even quite young children.

Connection? Forcible tickling of a young child resulting in an adult fetish for same?
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Old 18th September 2020, 06:35 AM   #40
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Adults have turned everything into a fetish. Children won't have anything left if remove from their lives everything Rule 34 has been applied to or there's a NSFW Subreddit for.
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