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Old 7th March 2020, 01:06 PM   #2161
Trebuchet
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Anyone here actually working in architecture? It seems to me that a firm of any size ought to have a person designated to be in charge of safety and regulatory compliance. Do they not?
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Old 7th March 2020, 01:27 PM   #2162
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
My whole point is that it is the system that is faulty. If the result of the enquiries is that one person is charged and nothing else changes then it could happen again. The main focus of any enquiry needs to be how to stop a future disaster happening again?

I don't disagree at all.

It certainly should.

Shame that isn't what seems to happen.

The continued use of these panels in inappropriate installations is a perfect example.
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Old 7th March 2020, 02:12 PM   #2163
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Anyone here actually working in architecture? It seems to me that a firm of any size ought to have a person designated to be in charge of safety and regulatory compliance. Do they not?

Yes. And yes.
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Old 7th March 2020, 02:38 PM   #2164
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Originally Posted by Architect View Post
Yes. And yes.
Thanks, I was hoping to hear from you. What do you figure went wrong with the process in this case?
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Old 7th March 2020, 06:17 PM   #2165
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I don't disagree at all.

It certainly should.

Shame that isn't what seems to happen.

The continued use of these panels in inappropriate installations is a perfect example.
Agreed on all points.
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Old 9th March 2020, 04:31 AM   #2166
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Originally Posted by Architect View Post
Yes. And yes.
For the second yes of someone in charge of compliance: working in IT and now medical data, I'm used to having someone who has that role but it's also thrashed into us that compliance is all our jobs. I would guess it's the same in architecture?
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Old 9th March 2020, 05:29 AM   #2167
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
That is my point. The manufacturers should make it easy for such people to know.
That is what product manuals and fliers are for. There are simply too many variables to make it easy to identify if it is a suitable product or not.
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Old 9th March 2020, 05:44 AM   #2168
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
My whole point is that it is the system that is faulty. If the result of the enquiries is that one person is charged and nothing else changes then it could happen again. The main focus of any enquiry needs to be how to stop a future disaster happening again?
Here is the thing even for home building the materials are changing constantly and what works fine with one material might not work at all or be dangerous with another seemingly similar material. Reading product inserts and manufacturer materials is the only way to know what will work. That is true in all the building trades now and especially in high rise.

Should several people have needed to sign off on the material choice, sure. But getting the installers to read the installation instructions and install it properly is often a challenge getting them to read up on if it is properly selected is just not going to happen.

If you want an engineering disaster that the people building it should have caught, the Florida Bridge Collapse a couple of years ago is much better. There the design was flawed but it was telling them it was faulty by having huge cracks that they should have said stop everything instead of increase the tension on it.
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Old 15th June 2020, 01:30 AM   #2169
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It's come to that time when those in power decide a needless symbol is what is wanted.

https://twitter.com/10DowningStreet/...77926990557186

I'm just surprised Johnson hasn't asked us to clap for them.
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Old 16th September 2020, 09:12 AM   #2170
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The inquiry is told that relevant files have been lost forever, after being wiped off a laptop by an ex-employee
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Old 16th September 2020, 09:57 AM   #2171
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Well, the link says that the ex-employee had good reason to believe that all the laptop files were stored on company servers, which is how most corporate IT operations would work. Sounds like investigators should have locked down every computer and server the morning after the fire.
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Old 16th September 2020, 10:03 AM   #2172
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I'm torn between thinking "never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity" and thinking it's totally implausible that a departing employee takes it upon himself to request all his work correspondence be deleted from his erstwhile employer's system and the company just lets it happen.

The wording of the article suggests that the company's email system is administered by a third party ("our service provider") I wonder how good their record keeping is and if they have a note of Anketell-Jones's emails being deleted in 2016.

Last edited by Jack by the hedge; 16th September 2020 at 10:07 AM.
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Old 16th September 2020, 10:05 AM   #2173
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
I'm torn between thinking "never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity" and thinking it's totally implausible that a departing employee takes it upon himself to request all his work correspondence be deleted from his erstwhile employer's system and the company just lets it happen.
Yeah - but I suspect it will have been merely bad IT practice - when someone left they simply deleted the user, so everything went.
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Old 16th September 2020, 10:17 AM   #2174
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I generally delete everything off my laptop before turning it back in.

I'll drop my work notes and related materials into a shared folder somewhere, but my local machine? Delete everything. I'm not doing a full NSA wipe or anything. I'm sure if my employer wanted to run a train on my computer usage the could. But still.
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Old 21st September 2020, 11:38 AM   #2175
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-54204967
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Old 21st September 2020, 12:46 PM   #2176
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Single Market Bill could 'weaken Scots Grenfell regulations'

Quote:
UK government plans to end independent Scottish building regulations have been condemned by a leading architect.

Peter Drummond, a senior member of the Royal Incorporation of Architects in Scotland (RIAS), said the regulations had prevented a tragedy in Scotland like that at Grenfell Tower in 2017.

The proposals are contained in the UK Internal Market Bill currently being debated at Westminster.

The UK government said Scotland could still set its own regulations.

The Scottish government has said the bill is a "power grab" from Holyrood.
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Old 21st September 2020, 02:05 PM   #2177
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
I'm torn between thinking "never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity" and thinking it's totally implausible that a departing employee takes it upon himself to request all his work correspondence be deleted from his erstwhile employer's system and the company just lets it happen.

The wording of the article suggests that the company's email system is administered by a third party ("our service provider") I wonder how good their record keeping is and if they have a note of Anketell-Jones's emails being deleted in 2016.


One other important consideration is this: if these emails were provably deleted from his laptop - and potentially also from the outsourced server - well before the Grenfell Tower fire itself, this would tend to mitigate quite strongly against those deletion actions being any kind of cover-up related to what happened at Grenfell Tower.

Had, for example, the deletions happened two days after the fire, then huge red flags would obviously have been raised. But, from reading that article, this doesn't appear to have been the case here.
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