ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags police issues , Seattle issues , Seattle politics

Reply
Old 12th August 2020, 12:06 PM   #121
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 12,464
Originally Posted by Lupus View Post
It's on topic, it was saying from an empirical point of view what it would look like.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_en...t_in_Venezuela
I believe ST was saying that he deleted his own post, as it was too off topic. I don't believe he was saying that your post was too off topic.
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th August 2020, 04:54 PM   #122
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 7,988
Originally Posted by Lupus View Post
Which group loots stores, kills people who say "all lives matter" and riots? It's BLM.
False. Imagine claiming that a nonviolent group is killing people. BLM's chapters are still responsible for a grand total of zero people killed, no matter how much you wish otherwise.

Frankly, your embarrassingly ignorant opening alone is quite enough to show that you don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about.

ETA: Or are you another one of those people that thinks BLM is responsible for anything any black person does, like that idiot Paul Joseph Watson labelling a random crime "The BLM kidnapping"? Because if you're just here to join the local white supremacist brigade, then I can just start ignoring your racist crap now. But if not...get serious, and stop writing nonsense like you did throughout your post.

Quote:
That's quite rude to say the militia's are white supremacist I'm not sure what you after here but their main interest is a sense of security within turmoil. If you look at the political stances of the main ones they are patriotic and libertarian.
Groups like the far right Proud Boy street gang, and the Boogaloo group that wants to use race to start a second civil war? Nah, they aren't patriots at all, sorry.

Quote:
Talk about who police wink and grin at, the state police are ordered by someone above to leave BLM alone in liberal states. How did you think CHOP held out as long as it did? The police were told to stand down.
Seemed to have gone rather well, aside from a few attacks from far-right extremists. I have little doubt it would have collapsed on it's own eventually, as this sort of thing does, but that usually takes months.

Quote:
For antifa firstly their goals matter to them more than who they oppose, which is anarcho-communism. If you named a neo-nazi group, "Peace and Love Org", does that make them suddenly only be about Peace and Love?
You must have not watched the video.
Yeah okay - by the way, this is the third anniversary of the Unite the Right rally, where various white supremacist and white nationalist groups got together to attack Jewish and nonwhite people in a central Virginia college town of Charlottesville. While cops sat back and did nothing, they proceeded to beat people, fire guns off, and drove a car into a crowd. Why this violent get-together was allowed to proceed when the city was given voluminous evidence of planned violence by Antifa activists, I don't know.

People remember that Heather Heyer was killed. They tend to forget that DeAndre Harris was nearly beaten to death by four white supremacists - who were identified, tracked down, and reported to a more or less indifferent by online activists. Eventually, the PD was shamed into making arrests and prosecutions for their near-murder.

Last edited by Mumbles; 12th August 2020 at 04:58 PM.
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th August 2020, 04:12 AM   #123
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 6,064
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post

People remember that Heather Heyer was killed. They tend to forget that DeAndre Harris was nearly beaten to death by four white supremacists - who were identified, tracked down, and reported to a more or less indifferent by online activists. Eventually, the PD was shamed into making arrests and prosecutions for their near-murder.
You need not go that far back into history. There is video of a counterprotester attacking protesters with 3 pipe bombs in Portland and the police are only just now going through the motions of trying to investigate this terrorist attack.

Just like the Harris case, they are only doing their jobs because online activists have collected all the evidence and is basically shaming the PPB into giving a **** about a terrorist bombing in their own backyard.

https://www.opb.org/article/2020/08/...-ex-navy-seal/
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th August 2020, 04:57 AM   #124
rockysmith76
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 1,853
Boogaloos bad, Antifa bad, equally, Lefties in denial over owning their responsibility in this.
rockysmith76 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th August 2020, 06:05 AM   #125
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 7,988
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
You need not go that far back into history. There is video of a counterprotester attacking protesters with 3 pipe bombs in Portland and the police are only just now going through the motions of trying to investigate this terrorist attack.

Just like the Harris case, they are only doing their jobs because online activists have collected all the evidence and is basically shaming the PPB into giving a **** about a terrorist bombing in their own backyard.

https://www.opb.org/article/2020/08/...-ex-navy-seal/
Yup, been following that case as well. The point is, *that* has been what antifa-related activism has mostly been up to, things that, plainly, police *should* be able to do very easily given their access to far superior resources. Instead, they waste time and funds brutalizing black people who are saying "Hey, stop brutalizing us!", on nation-wide tv, and getting people like Lupus to screech about how BLM is killing people (groups like BLM offer nonviolence training specifically so people won't even lash out when under attack - a technique taken from the likes of the SPLC and SNCC going back to the 1950s)
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th August 2020, 06:08 AM   #126
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 7,988
Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Boogaloos bad, Antifa bad, equally, Lefties in denial over owning their responsibility in this.
Fun fact: one can be a strong conservative, and still follow antifa. Or BLM for that matter, although the big problem there is that the group was founded by three queer women.
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th August 2020, 05:44 AM   #127
varwoche
Penultimate Amazing
 
varwoche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 14,953
The Seattle City Council is a body that perpetually consists, in large part, of raving nut jobs who serve to discredit any notion of rational progressivism.
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
My authority is total - Trump
varwoche is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2020, 11:25 AM   #128
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 12,464
Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
The Seattle City Council is a body that perpetually consists, in large part, of raving nut jobs who serve to discredit any notion of rational progressivism.
Thank you for making me giggle. A truer description has not been uttered.
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2020, 12:49 PM   #129
lomiller
Penultimate Amazing
 
lomiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 10,921
Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Boogaloos bad, Antifa bad, equally, Lefties in denial over owning their responsibility in this.
Why do you think opposing fascism is bad?
__________________
"Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"
lomiller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2020, 01:20 PM   #130
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 12,464
Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Why do you think opposing fascism is bad?
A contingent of people calling themselves antifascists are employing violence in a rather fascist manner in order to hypothetically oppose fascism.

Kind of the same way I'm against misogynists who call them selves "rights activists".
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th August 2020, 07:53 AM   #131
lomiller
Penultimate Amazing
 
lomiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 10,921
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
A contingent of people calling themselves antifascists are employing violence in a rather fascist manner in order to hypothetically oppose fascism.
This doesn’t make sense. Antifa are mostly anarchists, what violence they actually engage in isn’t fascist in nature. Fascists wield violence to enforce obedience to the state, uniformity of culture and the supremacy of it's preferred people. Anarchists wield violence to break down State and cultural order. They are diametrically opposed ideologies.
__________________
"Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"
lomiller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th August 2020, 09:37 AM   #132
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 12,464
I'm not sure that's a very meaningful distinction. In particular, it seems to gloss over the fat that while many Antifa aren't particularly fascist, some of them seem to be.

Misogynists advocate in order to keep women down and deprive them of their rights. Men's Rights Activists advocate in order to protect and further men's rights in areas where they are disadvantages, such as child custody.
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th August 2020, 09:41 AM   #133
RedStapler
Muse
 
RedStapler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Posts: 762
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
A contingent of people calling themselves antifascists are employing violence in a rather fascist manner in order to hypothetically oppose fascism.

Kind of the same way I'm against misogynists who call them selves "rights activists".
You really should understand the word fascism before you use it in a discussion.
RedStapler is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th August 2020, 09:43 AM   #134
Ron Obvious
Thinker
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 186
Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
This doesn’t make sense. Antifa are mostly anarchists, what violence they actually engage in isn’t fascist in nature. Fascists wield violence to enforce obedience to the state, uniformity of culture and the supremacy of it's preferred people. Anarchists wield violence to break down State and cultural order. They are diametrically opposed ideologies.
Antifa (or a lot of self-identified members) seem to want to enforce adherence to an ideology by violent means. That sounds fascist enough to me.

The new fascists shall call themselves the anti-fascists.
Ron Obvious is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th August 2020, 09:45 AM   #135
RedStapler
Muse
 
RedStapler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Posts: 762
Originally Posted by Ron Obvious View Post
Antifa (or a lot of self-identified members) seem to want to enforce adherence to an ideology by violent means. That sounds fascist enough to me.

The new fascists shall call themselves the anti-fascists.
Edited by Agatha:  Edited to remove breach of rule 0 and rule 12

Last edited by Agatha; 19th August 2020 at 09:18 AM.
RedStapler is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th August 2020, 12:46 PM   #136
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 7,988
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I'm not sure that's a very meaningful distinction. In particular, it seems to gloss over the fat that while many Antifa aren't particularly fascist, some of them seem to be.
The difference is obvious. In order to escape the ire of antifa, all a fascist has to do is renounce fascism and work to repair the damage they've caused. To escape the ire of fascists, the members of groups they hate all have to die.

Quote:
Misogynists advocate in order to keep women down and deprive them of their rights. Men's Rights Activists advocate in order to protect and further men's rights in areas where they are disadvantages, such as child custody.
In practice, most self-styled MRAs are misogynists with a fancy new name. This is unfortunate, as the original group was essentially the male equivalent of feminism, concerned with the undue judgement placed on men by society.
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2020, 12:05 PM   #137
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 25,608
Originally Posted by HoverBoarder
Nikkita recently laid out plans for how she would like to see defunding of the police in Seattle plan to proceed, with the goal of getting rid of police entirely to be replaced by community social services in 2021.
Do you know if there has been any talk about also having community news reporters?

Let's say there is a major crime in one of these communities. Would community eyewitness news reporters be favored over those coming in from outside of that community?
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2020, 11:26 AM   #138
Leftus
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,112
Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Why do you think opposing fascism is bad?
The problem is, of course, their name. While they say that are anti-fascism, they aren't really anti-fascist. Their definition is very circular. Since they oppose fascism, everything they oppose must be fascist, see the name. If you oppose them, or their tactics, well you must be a fascist, again, see the name.

If I say "you shouldn't burn down police stations" then I'm a fascist? Nope. Not even close. Unless you are Antifa. As I've taken a position contrary to them, I must be supporting what they oppose.
Leftus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2020, 11:33 AM   #139
Leftus
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,112
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
The difference is obvious. In order to escape the ire of antifa, all a fascist has to do is renounce fascism and work to repair the damage they've caused. To escape the ire of fascists, the members of groups they hate all have to die.
Why should you renounce something you aren't, and repair damage that doesn't exist until Antifa shows up and burns you out? The target isn't fascist until it's designated as the target and then there is no escape.

Antifa doesn't define what a fascist is, until they show up ready to torch your place to the ground. Target didn't seem to be to be a bastion of Fascism, but those with ill intent showed up. It's a Willie Sutton justification. Why is Target fascist? They have goods we want. If only Willie had called himself an Anti-Fascist. Getting to believe banks were fascist would not be a hard sell, but the logic is backwards.
Leftus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2020, 11:28 AM   #140
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 17,931
Here's an article from Vanity Fair on the topic. Get this pull quote:

Quote:
White safety is cancer prevention. Black safety is all-day chemotherapy. Abolition seeks to eradicate this Jim Crow system.
It's the usual stew of "cops shouldn't be adjudicating domestic violence disputes", and "eliminate the drug war" with a bit of "cops do a crappy job of solving crimes," mixed in for good measure. Some of those ideas are not crazy; some are like this:

Quote:
Abolition seeks to eradicate this Jim Crow system of public safety—not merely a two-tiered system, but a system where one tier benefits by extracting from the other. To “reform” policing, to subject it to bias training of dubious import, to push for the return to an illusory past where Officer Friendly provided sanctuary, is to attempt to patch up the more nefarious features of a system that should be obsolete. Without the history of policies and practices that make up white supremacy, without enslavement and slave patrols, without black codes and miscegenation laws, without poll taxes and courthouse lynchings, without redlining and housing segregation, without mass incarceration, policing as we know it would not exist.
Considering that policing exists in every country on earth, this is silly and just a tad overwrought. And then there's this:

Quote:
Nowhere is the extra layer of unnecessary violence more reflected than in our insistence on sending men with guns to resolve mental health crises. In Eugene, Oregon, CAHOOTS, a crisis intervention program, was able to respond to 20 percent of the area’s 911 calls last year. Through the program, teams of medics and experienced mental health professionals are dispatched to handle certain emergencies instead of the police. For people suffering from mental health crises, addiction, and homelessness, introducing law enforcement in moments of desperation is an invitation for disaster. CAHOOTS reduces the risk of unnecessary violence and criminalization.
CAHOOTS has been around for 31 years, and they were able to handle 20% of the 911 calls? When you go around proposing "abolition" of the police, that hardly sounds like a dramatic success story.
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.
Brainster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2020, 11:55 AM   #141
deadrose
Illuminator
 
deadrose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: the wet side of the mountains
Posts: 3,443
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
CAHOOTS has been around for 31 years, and they were able to handle 20% of the 911 calls? When you go around proposing "abolition" of the police, that hardly sounds like a dramatic success story.
It's a very dramatic success story if 20% of 911 calls involve mental crisis. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be able to help much at fires or car accidents.
deadrose is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2020, 12:04 PM   #142
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 49,543
Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
It's a very dramatic success story if 20% of 911 calls involve mental crisis. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be able to help much at fires or car accidents.
But without the cops who will be there to set dogs on possibly suicidal teens? That is serious comedy right there.

http://watchdogsarasota.heraldtribun...e-get-ur-bite/

Cops all the way, dog bites fix everything wrong with those in mental crisis.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2020, 12:14 PM   #143
rdwight
Muse
 
rdwight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 685
Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
It's a very dramatic success story if 20% of 911 calls involve mental crisis. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be able to help much at fires or car accidents.
That actually seems like a very good plan to implement honestly. If 20% of calls involve mental crisis, there should be a dedicated response with people correctly trained for the situation. I imagine a large problem will be the recurring nature of this, but the more familiar those arriving to help in these calls are with the person, the less likely it will devolve. Everyone will have to accept that there will be a certain percent of events that will turn south though, and not deter the attempt because of it.
rdwight is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2020, 12:26 PM   #144
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 6,064
Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
That actually seems like a very good plan to implement honestly. If 20% of calls involve mental crisis, there should be a dedicated response with people correctly trained for the situation. I imagine a large problem will be the recurring nature of this, but the more familiar those arriving to help in these calls are with the person, the less likely it will devolve. Everyone will have to accept that there will be a certain percent of events that will turn south though, and not deter the attempt because of it.
Putting on my technocrat hat:

Is it cheaper to provide mental health care to people in crisis than it is to pay out settlements after the cops show up and just shoot them?
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2020, 01:39 PM   #145
Arcade22
Philosopher
 
Arcade22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 6,671
Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Why do you think opposing fascism is bad?
It's possible to oppose "fascism" without being a violent far-left extremists with no respect for even basic personal freedoms and rights. The enemy of my enemy is not nessecerily my friend.
__________________
We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr

And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann
Arcade22 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2020, 02:53 PM   #146
rdwight
Muse
 
rdwight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 685
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Putting on my technocrat hat:

Is it cheaper to provide mental health care to people in crisis than it is to pay out settlements after the cops show up and just shoot them?
Seems like a thread topic in itself, along with homelessness and mental health etc. Far too many moving parts to attempt root cause solutions before targeted emergency management ones.
rdwight is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2020, 07:47 PM   #147
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 68,324
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Putting on my technocrat hat:

Is it cheaper to provide mental health care to people in crisis than it is to pay out settlements after the cops show up and just shoot them?
Cheaper in terms of money or in terms of moral standing?
__________________
Self-described nerd.

My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something.
- Randall Munroe
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2020, 08:08 PM   #148
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 6,064
Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
Seems like a thread topic in itself, along with homelessness and mental health etc. Far too many moving parts to attempt root cause solutions before targeted emergency management ones.
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Cheaper in terms of money or in terms of moral standing?
This was an ill-humored joke, apologies if that wasn't clear.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th August 2020, 10:07 AM   #149
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 17,931
Here's a terrific article about an armchair detective who has compiled the largest database on unsolved murders in the US. These two points might prove salient:

Quote:
MAP tracks staffing trends on its website, too. Hargrove notes that Flint, Mich., and Dayton, Ohio, have seen their clearance rates fall more than 30 percentage points since the 1990s, coinciding with huge reductions in police manpower (330 to 185 officers in Flint; 500 to 394 in Dayton).
And:

Quote:
Pulling up information from 218 metropolitan jurisdictions in the 2014 Uniform Crime Report, he found that in the places with poor clearance rates, the homicide rate was almost double that of places where the clearance rate was better—from 9.6 homicides to 17.9 per 100,000 people.

“It makes perfect sense,” Hargrove says. “If you leave the killers to walk the street, why wouldn’t that cause more killings? The answer is, it does."
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.
Brainster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th August 2020, 11:21 AM   #150
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 12,464
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
This was an ill-humored joke, apologies if that wasn't clear.
I thought it was funny. Very "fight club".
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th August 2020, 11:33 AM   #151
GaughEyad
New Blood
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 14
Quote:
“It makes perfect sense,” Hargrove says. “If you leave the killers to walk the street, why wouldn’t that cause more killings? The answer is, it does."
Good to know that all those murdering cops would be behind bars if only there were more cops to arrest them.

Wait...
GaughEyad is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th August 2020, 02:46 PM   #152
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 7,988
Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
Why should you renounce something you aren't, and repair damage that doesn't exist until Antifa shows up and burns you out? The target isn't fascist until it's designated as the target and then there is no escape.
As far as I can see, actual misapplication of the label is...rather rare. When, for example, black people rally in a public park to protest police brutality, and police respond by beating random people with batons, flooding the entire neighborhoos with tear gas, and so on...well, the police are pretty much acting fascistically. Same thing for the guy in public (either in the open, on Youtube, whatever) waving guns and screeching about how "George Soros" and "the Globalists" are trying to replace white people with black and brown people as part of their evil plan to...do...something.

Quote:
Antifa doesn't define what a fascist is, until they show up ready to torch your place to the ground. Target didn't seem to be to be a bastion of Fascism, but those with ill intent showed up. It's a Willie Sutton justification. Why is Target fascist? They have goods we want. If only Willie had called himself an Anti-Fascist. Getting to believe banks were fascist would not be a hard sell, but the logic is backwards.
Odd, I don't recall Antifa burning any Target - although random angry people, and white nationalists (ie. fascists) have. Nor do I recall them attacking any banks - although they've likely exposed particular people that work at various banks - although fake anarchists that really just want to vandalize businesses certainly have.

And actually, they have a pretty clear view of what makes a fascist movement - although like everything in politics, nothing is absolutely black-and-white. Indicators include things like demanding a return to a distant, fictional idealized past, the targeting of a subgroup that is somehow both extremely weak, and at the same time secretly in control of everything and thus incredibly powerful, and an obnoxious, unhealthy view of the roles of men and women in society.

...huh. Sounds familiar to me here in America...
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 07:20 AM   #153
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 17,931
One thing you can expect: City council members asking, "Where are the police?"

Quote:
Just months after leading an effort that would have defunded the police department, City Council members at Tuesday’s work session pushed chief Medaria Arradondo to tell them how the department is responding to the violence.

The number of reported violent crimes, like assaults, robberies and homicides are up compared to 2019, according to MPD crime data. More people have been killed in the city in the first nine months of 2020 than were slain in all of last year. Property crimes, like burglaries and auto thefts, are also up. Incidents of arson have increased 55 percent over the total at this point in 2019.
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.
Brainster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 07:26 AM   #154
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 6,064
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
One thing you can expect: City council members asking, "Where are the police?"
If they aren't doing their jobs, all the more reason to take the money and use it elsewhere.

Cops not being around when you need them isn't exactly a ringing endorsement of the status quo.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 07:40 AM   #155
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 13,383
Petulance and irresponsibility aren’t exactly desirable qualities in people to whom we grant the power of authority by use of deadly force.
johnny karate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 10:52 AM   #156
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 17,931
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
If they aren't doing their jobs, all the more reason to take the money and use it elsewhere.
Yep, bring on those flying squads of mental health professionals. That will surely do the trick!
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.
Brainster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 12:11 PM   #157
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 13,383
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Yep, bring on those flying squads of mental health professionals. That will surely do the trick!
Good point. We should probably just stick with the militarized fascists who violate civil rights, commit murder, and conspire to cover it up because there are obviously no other options.
johnny karate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 11:56 PM   #158
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 7,988
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Petulance and irresponsibility aren’t exactly desirable qualities in people to whom we grant the power of authority by use of deadly force.
The cops are never around when you need them, but always seem to find time to harrass and beat random poor and/or darker-skinned people.

Imagine that, it's as though that thing black people have been saying collectively for well over a century is correct.
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th September 2020, 04:11 AM   #159
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 6,064
Anecdotal evidence, the two times I tried to make a criminal complaint to the cops, both around being chased during road rage encounters captured on helmet cam footage with clear license plates, the cops did nothing. Nowadays I wouldn't even bother, but I was younger and more naive then.

Sure, they'll hassle people in the streets, because that's easy, but they suck at real police work. Complaints about cops not showing up in a timely matter, not following up on cases despite clear paths forward, and not solving seemingly simple cases are extremely common.

Clearance rates for serious crimes is pitifully low despite the bloated police budgets. The cops suck at their job and are a parasite on the communities they serve.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 17th September 2020 at 04:13 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st September 2020, 08:31 AM   #160
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 46,622
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Anecdotal evidence, the two times I tried to make a criminal complaint to the cops, both around being chased during road rage encounters captured on helmet cam footage with clear license plates, the cops did nothing. Nowadays I wouldn't even bother, but I was younger and more naive then.

Sure, they'll hassle people in the streets, because that's easy, but they suck at real police work. Complaints about cops not showing up in a timely matter, not following up on cases despite clear paths forward, and not solving seemingly simple cases are extremely common.

Clearance rates for serious crimes is pitifully low despite the bloated police budgets. The cops suck at their job and are a parasite on the communities they serve.
There's an aphorism among second-amendment nerds that the cops will show up in ten minutes, and you have ten seconds.

One of the most interesting developments of the civil rights era was the Black Panthers promoting the exercise of second amendment rights for black Americans - especially open carry.

Anyway, my prediction is that communities that successfully abolish the police will immediately re-invent police. And, because they are explicitly rejecting hundreds of years of conventional wisdom and baked-in tradition, their version of policing will be very ugly for some time, until they figure out all the pitfalls for themselves from first principles.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:25 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.