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Old 17th August 2020, 07:19 AM   #1
SuburbanTurkey
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The ethics of punching racists on the Tube

Another example of cancel culture IRL.

White racist haranguing three black subway riders gets knocked unconscious as the men exit the train. Other subway riders laugh as others provide aid as he lays unconscious from the world ending punch.

You hate to see it

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Old 17th August 2020, 07:22 AM   #2
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Regardless of what the racist said I hope the idiot who hit him is found, charged and jailed for his actions. He could have quite easily have killed the racist.
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Old 17th August 2020, 07:23 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Regardless of what the racist said I hope the idiot who hit him is found, charged and jailed for his actions. He could have quite easily have killed the racist.
I think he should be found and given a medal. I hope the TBI leaves enough memory of the event for the racist to vividly regret the incident.

Racists with glass jaws should be a little more circumspect about their beliefs.
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Old 17th August 2020, 07:34 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Regardless of what the racist said I hope the idiot who hit him is found, charged and jailed for his actions. He could have quite easily have killed the racist.
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
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Old 17th August 2020, 07:39 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I think he should be found and given a medal. I hope the TBI leaves enough memory of the event for the racist to vividly regret the incident.

Racists with glass jaws should be a little more circumspect about their beliefs.
Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
The bloke hit was obviously either high and/or drunk. Yes he was an idiot, he was stupid, he was a bigot, none of which should have resulted in him being assaulted.
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Old 17th August 2020, 07:41 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
The bloke hit was obviously either high and/or drunk. Yes he was an idiot, he was stupid, he was a bigot, none of which should have resulted in him being assaulted.
Dude, look at his body language when they get up. He asks for it and then he gets what he wants.

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Old 17th August 2020, 07:49 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
The bloke hit was obviously either high and/or drunk. Yes he was an idiot, he was stupid, he was a bigot, none of which should have resulted in him being assaulted.
Depends on who you ask. Clearly we disagree on the matter.

Seems like the perfect microcosm of our society right now. Interesting that the many of the bystanders weren't willing to interject themselves when the racist was harassing these people, but had a lot of outrage when they defended themselves. Seems that some people are willing to tolerate a lot of racism in the name of civility.
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Old 17th August 2020, 08:50 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Another example of cancel culture IRL.
Is there an effort underway to have this fellow doxxed and sacked?

ETA: If so, is that good?
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Old 17th August 2020, 08:52 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Is there an effort underway to have this fellow doxxed and sacked?

ETA: If so, is that good?
Which fellow?

Either way, I think the incident is too recent to know. Time will tell, I suppose, if there any additional consequences for anyone involved.

I don't think it's really necessary for the racist to be fired. Getting his skull thumped seems like enough of a lesson. But then again, getting knocked out doesn't really change that he's a vile human being that most decent people won't want to associate with.
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Old 17th August 2020, 09:01 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Which fellow?
The racist fellow.

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I don't think it's really necessary for the racist to be fired. Getting his skull thumped seems like enough of a lesson.
Fascinating perspective.

This doesn't seem like this video has much to do with "cancel culture" unless or until there is some effort to have this guy canceled deplatformed/demonetized/disemployed etc.
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Old 17th August 2020, 11:59 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Which fellow?

Either way, I think the incident is too recent to know. Time will tell, I suppose, if there any additional consequences for anyone involved.

I don't think it's really necessary for the racist to be fired. Getting his skull thumped seems like enough of a lesson. But then again, getting knocked out doesn't really change that he's a vile human being that most decent people won't want to associate with.
This comes across as if you think laws against physical assault really should be optional, based entirely on whether you think the victim of such assault deserves it or not.

You're lauding violence and physical harm.
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Old 17th August 2020, 12:02 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
This comes across as if you think laws against physical assault really should be optional, based entirely on whether you think the victim of such assault deserves it or not.

You're lauding violence and physical harm.
Indeed I am. Liberalism has failed to deal with the problems of racism, nationalism, and fascism. Indeed, it is back sliding on these non-negotiable issues. The stakes are simply too high to allow racists or fascists to feel safe in the public to share their dangerous ideology.

It always takes violence to stop these people. Periods of liberal tranquility rest on the foundation that violent anti-racism and anti- fascism has built. This time around, there isn't going to be 14 million Soviet soldiers willing to die to stop them. Do your part for a better tomorrow, bash the fash.
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Old 17th August 2020, 12:10 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
This comes across as if you think laws against physical assault really should be optional, based entirely on whether you think the victim of such assault deserves it or not.

You're lauding violence and physical harm.
What did he say to them right before the punch was thrown?

If he said "please demonstrate Newton's laws by introducing your hand to my head in a violent manner" or some other words to that effect, then that is an invitation to assault.

If he said "g'day mate" like the guy in the Outback Steakhouse commercials that is pretty much the same thing.

But if he was just saying cheers, then I suppose you have a point.

I couldn't really hear. But if one of those blokes was my client, I take the time to listen more closely with an open mind.
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Old 17th August 2020, 12:27 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Indeed I am. Liberalism has failed to deal with the problems of racism, nationalism, and fascism. Indeed, it is back sliding on these non-negotiable issues. The stakes are simply too high to allow racists or fascists to feel safe in the public to share their dangerous ideology.

It always takes violence to stop these people. Periods of liberal tranquility rest on the foundation that violent anti-racism and anti- fascism has built. This time around, there isn't going to be 14 million Soviet soldiers willing to die to stop them. Do your part for a better tomorrow, bash the fash.
Your answer to an ideology that advocates for violence... is to advocate for violence.
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Old 17th August 2020, 12:30 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Your answer to an ideology that advocates for violence... is to advocate for violence.
Indeed. Self-defense is often quite violent.

Are you a pacifist? If not, you obviously have no problem with righteous violence.
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Old 17th August 2020, 12:32 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Indeed. Self-defense is often quite violent.

Are you a pacifist? If not, you obviously have no problem with righteous violence.
I am a staunch supporter of non-aggression. Self defense is a perfectly appropriate response.

"Pre-emptive Self Defense" isn't defense at all. It's a set of weasel words for aggression.
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Old 17th August 2020, 12:42 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I am a staunch supporter of non-aggression. Self defense is a perfectly appropriate response.

"Pre-emptive Self Defense" isn't defense at all. It's a set of weasel words for aggression.
I contend that the subway racist committed sufficient aggression to warrant a violent response. There was clearly an attempt at physical intimidation, which, I cannot stress enough, failed spectacularly. That knockout was exquisite.
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Old 17th August 2020, 12:51 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I contend that the subway racist committed sufficient aggression to warrant a violent response. There was clearly an attempt at physical intimidation, which, I cannot stress enough, failed spectacularly. That knockout was exquisite.
You are giving license to violence on the basis of offense. As long as someone can claim to have been deeply offended by what someone else has said, then their aggression is justified by your viewpoint.

This view is fertile ground for persecution of belief.
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Old 17th August 2020, 12:52 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I am a staunch supporter of non-aggression. Self defense is a perfectly appropriate response.

"Pre-emptive Self Defense" isn't defense at all. It's a set of weasel words for aggression.
This just goes to show that Jeremy Joseph Christian is a true victim of cancel culture. He was peaceably spreading his views when three thugs tried to cancel him and he would not take it. A true hero of free speech. If those men canceling him had not assaulted him everything would have been fine. Clearly you need to spend effort this true victim of cancel culture.
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Old 17th August 2020, 12:53 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
You are giving license to violence on the basis of offense. As long as someone can claim to have been deeply offended by what someone else has said, then their aggression is justified by your viewpoint.

This view is fertile ground for persecution of belief.
I think there's a compelling argument that the man was engaged in physical intimidation. Are you telling me a reasonable person would not feel in danger if someone that was haranguing them on public transit followed them out the door, squaring off with clenched fists?

That aside, I'll make it easier though. It is a moral imperative to persecute racists and fascists. They should be confronted in public, and if they try to assert themselves with violence, they should be injured until they stop.

I have nothing but contempt for those that were willing to do nothing as this man harassed the other 3, but suddenly felt aggrieved when they took action to defend themselves. Absolute coward nonsense. If they wanted to prevent violence so badly, they should have confronted the racist and talked him down. Expecting his victims to run off with their tails between their legs is embarrassing.
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Old 17th August 2020, 01:00 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
This just goes to show that Jeremy Joseph Christian is a true victim of cancel culture.
Murderous criminals getting life sentences feels a bit off-topic from where I'm sitting.
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Old 17th August 2020, 01:01 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Murderous criminals getting life sentences feels a bit off-topic from where I'm sitting.
Cops let him go the night before when he assaulted a black woman. PPB's only competency is shooting protesters in the face, it seems.
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Old 17th August 2020, 01:03 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Murderous criminals getting life sentences feels a bit off-topic from where I'm sitting.
Not at all he did the same basic kind of mass transit harrasment as this poor victim, and defended his rights when he was assaulted. He fits into this discussion quite readily. For example if they simply knocked him out instead of pushing him and claiming they were deescalating it the people who assaulted him would still be alive.

I mean that POC are going to be subjected to constant harassment is of course a given, they are a sacrifice to free speech after all.
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Old 17th August 2020, 01:11 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Not at all he did the same basic kind of mass transit harrasment as this poor victim, and defended his rights when he was assaulted.
I'm going to need a reference here, not seeing any mention of him being assaulted.
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Old 17th August 2020, 01:12 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I think there's a compelling argument that the man was engaged in physical intimidation. Are you telling me a reasonable person would not feel in danger if someone that was haranguing them on public transit followed them out the door, squaring off with clenched fists?

That aside, I'll make it easier though. It is a moral imperative to persecute racists and fascists. They should be confronted in public, and if they try to assert themselves with violence, they should be injured until they stop.

I have nothing but contempt for those that were willing to do nothing as this man harassed the other 3, but suddenly felt aggrieved when they took action to defend themselves. Absolute coward nonsense. If they wanted to prevent violence so badly, they should have confronted the racist and talked him down. Expecting his victims to run off with their tails between their legs is embarrassing.
If the black men had been US cops and a black man walked up to them like that they would have "feared for their lives" and could have shot everyone in the damn train cars.

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Old 17th August 2020, 01:15 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I'm going to need a reference here, not seeing any mention of him being assaulted.
"According to a witness, Namkai-Meche told Christian in a loud voice: "You need to get off this train. Please, get off this train."[13] The witness said that the men attempted to form a barrier between Christian and the girls. Then Micah David-Cole Fletcher gave him "a slight push or shove" in an attempt to move him away. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_P...d_train_attack

Shoving him is assault. They started the confrontation and started the assault. He was just harassing teenage girls as is his constitutional rights.

The behavior of him and the guy who got knocked out seems pretty much the same. So he shouldn't have been assaulted by being shoved because you can not assault people for mere racist harassment.
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Old 17th August 2020, 01:22 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
So he shouldn't have been assaulted by being shoved because you can not assault people for mere racist harassment.
Do you actually believe this?
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Old 17th August 2020, 05:24 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
You are giving license to violence on the basis of offense. As long as someone can claim to have been deeply offended by what someone else has said, then their aggression is justified by your viewpoint.

This view is fertile ground for persecution of belief.
And if you stop ignoring reality for a few seconds, you will realize that the highlighted part sounds good if one is into "holier than thou" speeches from armchair philosophers. The fact that out there, almost no one is beating people up after (falsely or not) claiming to have been deeply offended, shows that your "violence bad because everyone could beat everyone" is extremely naive.

The nazi pig got what he aimed for, society won't crumble because of this.
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Old 17th August 2020, 06:30 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
The nazi pig got what he aimed for, society won't crumble because of this.
Society won't crumble from burning entire cities to the ground, if I remember the 20th century correctly. Bit of a weird test, IMO.
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Old 17th August 2020, 10:56 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Depends on who you ask. Clearly we disagree on the matter.

Seems like the perfect microcosm of our society right now. Interesting that the many of the bystanders weren't willing to interject themselves when the racist was harassing these people, but had a lot of outrage when they defended themselves. Seems that some people are willing to tolerate a lot of racism in the name of civility.
The video shows the exact opposite of how you describe it.
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Old 18th August 2020, 01:16 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Society won't crumble from burning entire cities to the ground, if I remember the 20th century correctly. Bit of a weird test, IMO.
Ok
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Old 18th August 2020, 02:42 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Do you actually believe this?
His behavior seems exactly the kind of thing those ranting about cancel culture want to defend right up until he killed those guys, who did start the whole confrontation. Without the body count it would fit in nicely with the whole cancel culture narrative. So all he seems to have done wrong from the position is be a bit too aggressive in the defense of his free speech rights.
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Old 18th August 2020, 03:01 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Regardless of what the racist said I hope the idiot who hit him is found, charged and jailed for his actions. He could have quite easily have killed the racist.
I'm with Darat on this one. Hollywood seems to have created this weird impression that punching someone, even to the extent of knocking them down, is harmless and pretty much the least escalation you can do. It is not. You just need to knock your head on something on the way down, or even on the floor to die.

In fact, if it results in bleeding inside the skull, since the volume of the skull is fixed, unless you get taken IMMEDIATELY to the emergency room, it can result in your brain being pushed out every available orifice (like the eye sockets) like toothpaste. Bleeding inside the skull is pretty much THE biggest predictor of death in any trauma to the head. And even if you get taken to the hospital, it can result in permanent brain damage.

And that's just one of the ways it can go south FAST.

So, yes, unless you are in fact prepared to escalate all the way to murder, throwing punches is not some way to add emphasis to an argument.
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Old 18th August 2020, 03:11 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Regardless of what the racist said I hope the idiot who hit him is found, charged and jailed for his actions. He could have quite easily have killed the racist.
It was a cowardly attack on the loudmouth, and it's no surprise the usual suspects are applauding it loudly.

Know what should have happened? Effective policing. There are PSOs (half police, but useful nonetheless) at every railway station in Melbourne. There is also the transit police actively patrolling trains. It's not hard to call out the cavalry here.

What should not have happened is vigilante justice, which the cheer squad would respond to with apoplexy if a caucasian attacked a similarly obnoxious person of colour.
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Old 18th August 2020, 03:13 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
I'm with Darat on this one. Hollywood seems to have created this weird impression that punching someone, even to the extent of knocking them down, is harmless and pretty much the least escalation you can do. It is not. You just need to knock your head on something on the way down, or even on the floor to die.

In fact, if it results in bleeding inside the skull, since the volume of the skull is fixed, unless you get taken IMMEDIATELY to the emergency room, it can result in your brain being pushed out every available orifice (like the eye sockets) like toothpaste. Bleeding inside the skull is pretty much THE biggest predictor of death in any trauma to the head. And even if you get taken to the hospital, it can result in permanent brain damage.

And that's just one of the ways it can go south FAST.

So, yes, unless you are in fact prepared to escalate all the way to murder, throwing punches is not some way to add emphasis to an argument.
Indeed. And the people who criticised those trying to help the guy should reflect on their own actions.
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Old 18th August 2020, 03:17 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
It was a cowardly attack on the loudmouth, and it's no surprise the usual suspects are applauding it loudly.

Know what should have happened? Effective policing. There are PSOs (half police, but useful nonetheless) at every railway station in Melbourne. There is also the transit police actively patrolling trains. It's not hard to call out the cavalry here.

What should not have happened is vigilante justice, which the cheer squad would respond with apoplexy if a caucasian attacked a similarly obnoxious person of colour.
If a person of colour would be screaming "White people are trash!" or something like that on the subway I would totally applaud the person who knocks them out. It's about screaming racist bs in a public place. If you are ok (and it's very clear that you are ) with the passive approach of "let the racist scream racist bs and do nothing" then that's your problem.

Last edited by RedStapler; 18th August 2020 at 03:20 AM. Reason: changed a word
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Old 18th August 2020, 03:28 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
If a person of colour would be screaming "White people are trash!" or something like that on the subway I would totally applaud the person who knocks them out. It's about screaming racist bs in a public place. If you are ok (and it's very clear that you are ) with the passive approach of "let the racist scream racist bs and do nothing" then that's your problem.
Please excuse my parochialism, but what exactly was this man saying?
I could make out clearly the words of the young woman chastising him- but the combination of the low audio and accented English makes it nearly impossible for me to tell what much of what he actually said was.
Was he saying "black people are trash"?
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Old 18th August 2020, 03:42 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
If a person of colour would be screaming "White people are trash!" or something like that on the subway I would totally applaud the person who knocks them out. It's about screaming racist bs in a public place. If you are ok (and it's very clear that you are ) with the passive approach of "let the racist scream racist bs and do nothing" then that's your problem.
Clearly you did not read my posts. I'm all for active policing.You support vigilante justice. I find this to be a disgraceful position.
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Old 18th August 2020, 03:43 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
If a person of colour would be screaming "White people are trash!" or something like that on the subway I would totally applaud the person who knocks them out. It's about screaming racist bs in a public place. If you are ok (and it's very clear that you are ) with the passive approach of "let the racist scream racist bs and do nothing" then that's your problem.
We have the offence of public disorder, that is how he should have been handled.
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Old 18th August 2020, 03:45 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Please excuse my parochialism, but what exactly was this man saying?
I could make out clearly the words of the young woman chastising him- but the combination of the low audio and accented English makes it nearly impossible for me to tell what much of what he actually said was.
Was he saying "black people are trash"?
Indeed. One of the few words I understood was the repeated use of "popular" and "popularity". Nor could I see who he was directing his tirade at. Is it certain he was abusing blacks? Its certainly clear who assaulted him.
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