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Old 18th August 2020, 05:22 AM   #81
d4m10n
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
History has shown that allowing these fash safe harbor to dominate public spaces is generally a very bad idea.
Same goes for tankies, yeah?
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Old 18th August 2020, 05:23 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Just as long as the side you support are doing the bashing.....
Some types of behavior is to be expected to merit getting a bash for.
Getting in someones face, loudly deriding them, using body language in a "come on and jump" manner.

Someone takes one to the head over that kind of behavior- they certainly were asking for it.
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Old 18th August 2020, 05:24 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Same goes for tankies, yeah?
Sure. Let me know the next time Tankies can assemble enough people in a room to be a anywhere near the same threat that neo-fascists currently are.
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Old 18th August 2020, 05:26 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Sure. Let me know the next time Tankies can assemble enough people in a room to be a anywhere near the same threat that neo-fascists currently are.
I'm only counting one (alleged) fash in the video.
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Old 18th August 2020, 05:31 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Unless you are a pacifism absolutist, you support the idea of righteous applications of violence. Don't play this canard, it's absurd.
So... insane troll logic is your best argument? There's no ground to support limited legal application of it, with all the legal safeguards and all, without also supporting that some useless wastes of genetic material can just beat up anyone they dislike? THAT kind of level of false equivalence?

Yeah, I get it that being a violent idiot is all that some people feel like they can contribute, because otherwise their value to society is best summed up by the old comedy quip, "you should have been a blowjob." Yeah, it's a bit too much to expect them to actually effect political change or anything. That takes actual effort, not to mention brains. But just because being a violent twit is all they CAN contribute, it doesn't make it a desirable contribution by the rest of society. And it most certainly doesn't strike me as perfectly equivalent with having a trained cop, acting under rules and subject to review and all, have it available as a last resort. And it most certainly doesn't strike me as something to cheer for.
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Old 18th August 2020, 05:35 AM   #86
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What should one do when there is a racist ranting at people on a train? We have to clear datapoints. It seems to many that ignoring it and waiting for them to tire themselves out of their racist rant is the only practical solution. The cops are highly unlikely to be helpful and confronting them you are violating the principle of conflict avoidance and retreat for self defense.
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Old 18th August 2020, 05:35 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
So... insane troll logic is your best argument? There's no ground to support limited legal application of it, with all the legal safeguards and all, without also supporting that some useless wastes of genetic material can just beat up anyone they dislike? THAT kind of level of false equivalence?

Yeah, I get it that being a violent idiot is all that some people feel like they can contribute, because otherwise their value to society is best summed up by the old comedy quip, "you should have been a blowjob." Yeah, it's a bit too much to expect them to actually effect political change or anything. That takes actual effort, not to mention brains. But just because being a violent twit is all they CAN contribute, it doesn't make it a desirable contribution by the rest of society.
Mockery and contempt is the only response I have to worthless libs wringing their hands about the necessary work of dealing with racists and fascists directly.

Worthless libs will wring their hands and do nothing when black victims stand up for themselves. They'll wring their hands and do nothing when white nationalists beat people in the streets. They'll wring their hands and do nothing when fascism takes control of the state. Wherever there is injustice, you'll surely find worthless libs complaining and doing nothing to stop it.

The crying of liberal moderates is just background noise, because they'll never step up to defend anything they believe in. MLK pegged these people perfectly, they prioritize order over justice.
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Old 18th August 2020, 05:35 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Some types of behavior is to be expected to merit getting a bash for.
Getting in someones face, loudly deriding them, using body language in a "come on and jump" manner.

Someone takes one to the head over that kind of behavior- they certainly were asking for it.
I take it you haven't been to too many European football matches then.
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Old 18th August 2020, 05:38 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I take it you haven't been to too many European football matches then.
Are we going with the monkey chants as more acceptable normalized levels of racism?
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Old 18th August 2020, 05:41 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Mockery and contempt is the only response I have to worthless libs wringing their hands about the necessary work of dealing with racists and fascists directly.
If "dealing with fascists" means repeating verbatim what the actual fascists did (look up the brown shirts in Germany or black shirts in Italy), then they ARE the problem. And not as in just something to wring hands about, but as in, I hope anyone taking to vigilantism gets put behind bars like the idiot rabid dogs they are, and bankrupted for ever by the civil lawsuit if they actually caused injury to anyone. Yeah, I won't be wringing my hands about what to do about it. What to do about it is actually pretty clear: get rid of the rabid idiots, so we can all go back to living in a civilized world.
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Old 18th August 2020, 05:44 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I take it you haven't been to too many European football matches then.
From what I understand, Football is rarely played there

Are there fights at the soccer games? Seems like that would lead to a general understanding of when someone is asking for it.
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Old 18th August 2020, 05:45 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Mockery and contempt is the only response I have to worthless libs wringing their hands about the necessary work of dealing with racists and fascists directly.
Are these discussion boards a good place to perform mockery and contempt?

Last I checked, that wasn't what we do here.
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Old 18th August 2020, 05:48 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
From what I understand, Football is rarely played there

Are there fights at the soccer games? Seems like that would lead to a general understanding of when someone is asking for it.
Well, you get together two large groups largely consisting of people who are (A) various degrees drunk, and (B) there to scream and show their tribalism, and yeah, you can expect insults being thrown and fights starting. And yes, you get some people who go there because they actually INTEND to get into a fight.

But the thing is, it's been something to crack down on and try to limit. We allocated enough resources to try to contain it that it's been steadily going down for at least half a century. It's not desirable behaviour in any country in the world. So yeah, I'm not exactly seeing a need to encourage it to spill into other aspects of society. If we didn't like having the ER rooms full when the idiots gather to show their tribalism about football, I sure as eff-word don't see why it would be desirable to let it happen when idiots decide they can only contribute dumb tribalism and aggression to politics too.
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Old 18th August 2020, 05:54 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Of course you try to deescalate it and you get your throat cut. Really there is nothing to be done for racist harassment and as we can see the police are useless as they just let these fine people go.
But there is plenty that can be done, we have a plethora of offences and punishments that he could be subjected to.
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Old 18th August 2020, 05:58 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Feel free to send him a get well card. Probably want to use pictures though, his brains might be too scrambled for the written letter. Thoughts and prayers for a speedy recovery
You do realise that if the racist injuries are severe the younger man who hit him is likely to have his life destroyed, a lengthy prison sentence, parole, permanent criminal record that he will have to disclose, unable to easily travel outside the U.K., bared from many occupations?

I
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Old 18th August 2020, 06:03 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
You do realise that if the racist injuries are severe the younger man who hit him is likely to have his life destroyed, a lengthy prison sentence, parole, permanent criminal record that he will have to disclose, unable to easily travel outside the U.K., bared from many occupations?
I almost wrote a message asking if he's cheering for exactly what you wrote there...
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Old 18th August 2020, 06:04 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
If they catch the guy who cancelled the Nazi (and I think they will), you won't hear me demanding "Free this guy!!!". He punched him and if he gets caught, he will have to take responsibility. But at the end of the day, an obnoxious piece of garbage got what he deserved.
As I mentioned above the young manís life is now ruined, sadly I would say those supporting the young manís actions are in fact saying that cost is worth it.

I donít think it is. This is an example of a Pyrrhic victory.
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Old 18th August 2020, 06:06 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
But there is plenty that can be done, we have a plethora of offences and punishments that he could be subjected to.
Not the least being the offence of assault. Yeah, if one was aggressive and menacing enough, it can qualify for that even if it doesn't outright escalate to battery.
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Old 18th August 2020, 06:08 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
You do realise that if the racist injuries are severe the younger man who hit him is likely to have his life destroyed, a lengthy prison sentence, parole, permanent criminal record that he will have to disclose, unable to easily travel outside the U.K., bared from many occupations?

I
Sure. Though I have yet to actually see a source to back up this claim of a brain injury, but I'm willing to believe it given the extended period of unconsciousness from Billy BagofBricks.

It would be a real shame if this punch ended up having serious consequences for our victim of a racist tirade. I very much doubt he intended to cause a serious injury, but such are the uncertainties of physical conflict.

I'm hoping for the best, that our man remains unidentified or receives a lenient sentence.
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Old 18th August 2020, 06:09 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
What should one do when there is a racist ranting at people on a train? We have to clear datapoints. It seems to many that ignoring it and waiting for them to tire themselves out of their racist rant is the only practical solution. The cops are highly unlikely to be helpful and confronting them you are violating the principle of conflict avoidance and retreat for self defense.
Confront them, tell them to shut up. If your perception is that there is danger use the emergency contact system to report them so they can be dealt with if there are transport police on the train or for them to be met by the police at the next station.
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Old 18th August 2020, 06:15 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Confront them, tell them to shut up. If your perception is that there is danger use the emergency contact system to report them so they can be dealt with if there are transport police on the train or for them to be met by the police at the next station.
The optimal solution is like you say, lawful confrontation. In the event that these racists decide to take it further, then the law is on your side to bash their faces in. Of course, occasionally that means Nazis cut the throats of brave people, but such are the wages of racism.

I'm not going to cry if someone being victimized decides to not give their oppressor the initiative to use violence.
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Old 18th August 2020, 06:19 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Sure. Though I have yet to actually see a source to back up this claim of a brain injury, but I'm willing to believe it given the extended period of unconsciousness from Billy BagofBricks.

It would be a real shame if this punch ended up having serious consequences for our victim of a racist tirade. I very much doubt he intended to cause a serious injury, but such are the uncertainties of physical conflict.

I'm hoping for the best, that our man remains unidentified or receives a lenient sentence.
Even a lenient sentence will probably destroy his life, is it really worth one racist being momentarily shut up for a life being wrecked?

Do you think yet another young black person entering the criminal justice system is going to make other racists re-evaluate their racism? It is bad enough that black and asian brits receive racist police attention and longer sentences if they are convicted without adding another person to the institutional racist U.K. justice systems.
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Old 18th August 2020, 06:19 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Are these discussion boards a good place to perform mockery and contempt?

Last I checked, that wasn't what we do here.
Last time I checked that's exactly what happens on this forum... all too often.
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Old 18th August 2020, 06:36 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Confront them, tell them to shut up. If your perception is that there is danger use the emergency contact system to report them so they can be dealt with if there are transport police on the train or for them to be met by the police at the next station.
And why would the cops suddenly care about such things?
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Old 18th August 2020, 06:40 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Confront them, tell them to shut up. If your perception is that there is danger use the emergency contact system to report them so they can be dealt with if there are transport police on the train or for them to be met by the police at the next station.
There were at least two stops in that video. It takes very little effort to alert police in these circumstances.

Yes the loudmouth was intimidating, but it would this could have been short circuited by alerting authorities. It would have denied some people the pleasure of seeing someone knocked out by a coward punch though.....
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Old 18th August 2020, 06:42 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
There were at least two stops in that video. It takes very little effort to alert police in these circumstances.

Yes the loudmouth was intimidating, but it would this could have been short circuited by alerting authorities. It would have denied some people the pleasure of seeing someone knocked out by a coward punch though.....
Why didn't any of the bystanders do anything then? They sure seemed awfully concerned after the punch, but couldn't be bothered to do anything proactive about it before hand.
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Old 18th August 2020, 06:42 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And why would the cops suddenly care about such things?
Oh dear, you know nothing about UK policing, do you?

http://www.btp.police.uk

Quote:
We are the national police force for the railways. Every day, we police the journeys of more than six million passengers. Our aim is to get you home safe, secure and on time.
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Old 18th August 2020, 06:44 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And why would the cops suddenly care about such things?
Ask Darren Daley of Brighton.
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Old 18th August 2020, 06:45 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Oh dear, you know nothing about UK policing, do you?

http://www.btp.police.uk
You still haven't established that the police want to cancel this kind of behavior.
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Old 18th August 2020, 06:48 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Why didn't any of the bystanders do anything then? They sure seemed awfully concerned after the punch, but couldn't be bothered to do anything proactive about it before hand.
Something I actually agree with.

I've posted this before, but if bullies and loudmouths are stood up to, they most often go to water. If I was on that train I would have not been polite at all to the loudmouth, something I've done often in the past, to the dismay (and rapid retreat) of my wife. But people don't generally get involved.

My point is that there were ways of dealing with this idiot. The best was to alert police. The worst was criminal assault.
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Old 18th August 2020, 06:49 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
You still haven't established that the police want to cancel this kind of behavior.
Why do I need to?

Again, you know nothing about UK policing.
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Old 18th August 2020, 06:50 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Something I actually agree with.

I've posted this before, but if bullies and loudmouths are stood up to, they most often go to water. If I was on that train I would have not been polite at all to the loudmouth, something I've done often in the past, to the dismay (and rapid retreat) of my wife. But people don't generally get involved.

My point is that there were ways of dealing with this idiot. The best was to alert police. The worst was criminal assault.
And they sometimes cut your throat.
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Old 18th August 2020, 07:09 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Something I actually agree with.

I've posted this before, but if bullies and loudmouths are stood up to, they most often go to water. If I was on that train I would have not been polite at all to the loudmouth, something I've done often in the past, to the dismay (and rapid retreat) of my wife. But people don't generally get involved.

My point is that there were ways of dealing with this idiot. The best was to alert police. The worst was criminal assault.
That's commendable. 3 people like you got their throats cut for their bravery when confronting a Nazi on an American train. 2 died on the spot, the third survived by a minor miracle.

It's important to keep in mind that the ideology driving these people isn't just the bragging of obnoxious loudmouths. It's an ideology of annihilation.
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Old 18th August 2020, 07:11 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Even a lenient sentence will probably destroy his life, is it really worth one racist being momentarily shut up for a life being wrecked?

Do you think yet another young black person entering the criminal justice system is going to make other racists re-evaluate their racism? It is bad enough that black and asian brits receive racist police attention and longer sentences if they are convicted without adding another person to the institutional racist U.K. justice systems.
Yeah, let's report the racists to the police, they will get a hefty 100 pound fine and nothing else With this approach, I'm sure the institutional racist U.K. justice systems will be gone very soon.
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Old 18th August 2020, 07:12 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
Yeah, let's report the racists to the police, they will get a hefty 100 pound fine and nothing else With this approach, I'm sure the institutional racist U.K. justice systems will be gone very soon.
Even in Germany, where fascism is explicitly illegal, relying on the cops to keep us safe from extreme right wing violence seems like a dubious bet.
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Old 18th August 2020, 07:14 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
It's important to keep in mind that the ideology driving these people isn't just the bragging of obnoxious loudmouths. It's an ideology of annihilation.
You seem highly confident (based on a few minutes of tape) that the American murderer and the British fellow who got knocked on his ass have the same ideology and end goals.
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Old 18th August 2020, 07:15 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
You seem highly confident (based on a few minutes of tape) that the American murderer and the British fellow who got knocked on his ass have the same ideology and end goals.
Some racists are the tip of the spear, others just enthusiastic enablers. All are culpable.
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Old 18th August 2020, 07:29 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Some racists are the tip of the spear, others just enthusiastic enablers. All are culpable.
Why stop at racists, though? For that matter, why stop at punching?

At the University of New Mexico (where I spent some time in the 90s) we'd occasionally come across a street preacher or two on campus; some of these were surprisingly shouty about the terrible things that would (and should) happen to degenerate sinners like myself. Given that theocracy tends to be an incredibly oppressive regime, and given that he was openly advocating torture by fire, would I have been justified in stabbing the preacher at least once or twice? I mean, he's the tip of the theocratic spear after all. In a way, it's just preemptive self-defense.
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Old 18th August 2020, 07:35 AM   #119
Darat
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Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
Yeah, let's report the racists to the police, they will get a hefty 100 pound fine and nothing else With this approach, I'm sure the institutional racist U.K. justice systems will be gone very soon.
And you think such a fine - it could also be a prison sentence by the way - wouldn't stop a racist mouthing off in public, especially if it kept happening? I think it would have the effect of making a racist shut up in public places?

It seems you would rather trade a young man's future to momentarily shut up a racist, I think that calculation is wrong. His life is much more important than momentarily shutting up a racist.
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Old 18th August 2020, 07:36 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
That's commendable. 3 people like you got their throats cut for their bravery when confronting a Nazi on an American train. 2 died on the spot, the third survived by a minor miracle.

It's important to keep in mind that the ideology driving these people isn't just the bragging of obnoxious loudmouths. It's an ideology of annihilation.
We don't know the racist's politics, he could in the UK identify with any of our parties and still be a racist.
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