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Old 18th August 2020, 07:36 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Why stop at racists, though? For that matter, why stop at punching?
Ah here comes the good old "If we punch Nazis, society will become an unliveable nightmare because all of a sudden, people will randomly punch other people"

Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
At the University of New Mexico (where I spent some time in the 90s) we'd occasionally come across a street preacher or two on campus; some of these were surprisingly shouty about the terrible things that would (and should) happen to degenerate sinners like myself. Given that theocracy tends to be an incredibly oppressive regime, and given that he was openly advocating torture by fire, would I have been justified in stabbing the preacher at least once or twice? I mean, he's the tip of the theocratic spear after all. In a way, it's just preemptive self-defense.
We talk about punching a Nazi, you bring up stabbing a radical preacher. What is wrong with you?
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Old 18th August 2020, 07:45 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
And you think such a fine - it could also be a prison sentence by the way - wouldn't stop a racist mouthing off in public, especially if it kept happening? I think it would have the effect of making a racist shut up in public places?
A prison sentence for racist harassment? I might confuse you with another member, but aren't you a lawyer??

If you think paying a fine or a prison sentence would shut up a racist: Good luck.

Originally Posted by Darat View Post
It seems you would rather trade a young man's future to momentarily shut up a racist, I think that calculation is wrong. His life is much more important than momentarily shutting up a racist.
The guy probably going to prison for assault is of course a bad thing to happen and I agree that the guy now being exposed to the racist system is also a bad thing.

I still prefer his approach over the cowardly "Well, yeah he is harassing black people in public. Let's call the police and then I can consider the incident as done. If the same thing happens again, we'll do exactly the same and convince ourselves that we have done something to fight racism"-approach.
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Old 18th August 2020, 07:47 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I've read a few of the folks who go on about cancel culture, don't recall any of them defending racist tirades in public.
It's what they're effectively doing, however. Much like the folks that claim they support the right to protest, but then scream at every possible nonviolent protest taken against, say, police brutality, the net effect is "out of control bigots get to run the streets". Sure, they say they don't like seeing some unarmed black kid get gunned down for no reason, but they don't want to actually do anything about it, and they're happy to see people fired for kneeling during the paid patriotism display at sportsball games, tear gas being fired at marches, mass attacks on people going about their business, and the like.

And then they're just shocked when someone finally just lashes out violently after being pushed and shoved for years, as if this is unpredictable.

It's not, though.

I suppose, legally, the guy that played Mike Tyson's Punch Out with the racist blowhard should be arrested and charged, as the law requires. I feel no sympathy whatsoever for the guy that got knocked out, though - my first reaction was simply "Welp." Folks always tell black people "play stupid games, win stupid prizes" and "act like a thug, get treated like one", when they panic over a cop rushing up and sticking a gun in their face. Seems to me it applies far more to this guy than to the vast majority of police brutality victims where it gets said.
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Old 18th August 2020, 07:48 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
Ah here comes the good old "If we punch Nazis, society will become an unliveable nightmare because all of a sudden, people will randomly punch other people"

I don't think people like this have ever had a discussion with an actual Nazi. I guess they would start with the question: 'But why stop at genocide?'
And at that point, I assume they will be recruited.

Quote:
We talk about punching a Nazi, you bring up stabbing a radical preacher. What is wrong with you?

Doesn't anybody want to nuke them anymore?
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Old 18th August 2020, 07:52 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
We talk about punching a Nazi, you bring up stabbing a radical preacher. What is wrong with you?
Having given up any hope of keeping the thread on track, I'm trying to understand the practical limits of the moral principle that sometimes it's good to meet offensive words with vigilante violence.
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Old 18th August 2020, 07:56 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Having given up any hope of keeping the thread on track, I'm trying to understand the practical limits of the moral principle that sometimes it's good to meet offensive words with vigilante violence.
Keep trying.
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Old 18th August 2020, 08:03 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I don't think people like this have ever had a discussion with an actual Nazi. I guess they would start with the question: 'But why stop at genocide?'
And at that point, I assume they will be recruited.




Doesn't anybody want to nuke them anymore?
My opinion on Nazis is informed by "meeting" Nazis "counter" demonstrating, which is why I'm all for it being illegal to be a Nazi, they advocate for the deaths of millions of their fellow citizens. In the UK we have made some of the groups illegal but not enough.
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Old 18th August 2020, 08:07 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
My opinion on Nazis is informed by "meeting" Nazis "counter" demonstrating, which is why I'm all for it being illegal to be a Nazi, they advocate for the deaths of millions of their fellow citizens. In the UK we have made some of the groups illegal but not enough.
Let's write words on a piece of paper. This will magically make the Nazis disappear.

"There is no chance that they will continue to meet in secret. Sheesh, what a ridiculous thought, I mean, we made these groups illegal "

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Old 18th August 2020, 08:16 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
Let's write words on a piece of paper. This will magically make the Nazis disappear. There is no chance that they will continue to meet in secret. What a ridiculous thought.
Goodness me houses are still burgled even though it is illegal, what's the point of having a law against it?

Your "arguments" are becoming most silly.
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Old 18th August 2020, 08:18 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
Keep trying.
Okay then. Why stop at racists? Why stop at punching?
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Old 18th August 2020, 08:22 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Okay then. Why stop at racists? Why stop at punching?
Ah here comes the good old "If we punch Nazis, society will become an unliveable nightmare because all of a sudden, people will randomly punch (or kill) other people"

You need to show why and how we would not stop at racists and why we would suddenly murder everyone. By now, it seems this is all a hunch, originating in your nether regions.

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Old 18th August 2020, 08:27 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Goodness me houses are still burgled even though it is illegal, what's the point of having a law against it?

Your "arguments" are becoming most silly.
You are the one who proposed that reporting Nazis to the police is all that needs to be done. Don't blame me for your "arguments".
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Old 18th August 2020, 09:20 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
Ah here comes the good old "If we punch Nazis, society will become an unliveable nightmare because all of a sudden, people will randomly punch (or kill) other people"

You need to show why and how we would not stop at racists and why we would suddenly murder everyone. By now, it seems this is all a hunch, originating in your nether regions.
Not really. If you and a racist were at a bar having a heated discussion and the racist cold-cocked you and dropped you to the floor would you then reconsider your position on racism and think to yourself "ya' know, I think those racists are right! What was I thinking?" I believe that's where they're going with this.
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Old 18th August 2020, 09:29 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Not really. If you and a racist were at a bar having a heated discussion and the racist cold-cocked you and dropped you to the floor would you then reconsider your position on racism and think to yourself "ya' know, I think those racists are right! What was I thinking?" I believe that's where they're going with this.
LOL, what are you on about? Can you cite the "Redstapler thinks that punching Nazis makes them think different"-part? If you actually bothered to read the last few pages you might have noticed that I am just happy that the Nazi-POS is likely incapacitated for life, that's all.

Again, show me where I claimed that Nazis will change their wicked ways if we punch em enough. I already made it clear (multiple times ) that I think that Nazis are unteachable. So where did you get that strawman from?
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Old 18th August 2020, 09:31 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
You seem highly confident (based on a few minutes of tape) that the American murderer and the British fellow who got knocked on his ass have the same ideology and end goals.
And how do we know if they are really racist, or just harassing people ironically for the humor in it?
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Old 18th August 2020, 09:44 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
You need to show why and how we would not stop at racists...
Why, though? Once we've established the moral principle that it's good to lash out violently at people who say offensive things in public, there isn't any obvious reason to stop at one particular -ism.

Had the bloke on the train been shouting transphobic things at trans women, would it be wrong to deck him?
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Old 18th August 2020, 09:47 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
The person who assaulted the racist had left the train and then came back to make the assault. That cannot be considered self-defence.


But that is not what happened in this incident. I agree that people engaging in public disorder should be persecuted, that people spouting off like he did should be challenged - as happened. And if they use violence against someone then retaliatory violence in self defense can be acceptable and legal.


The man was challenged by several people on the train, the evidence is not that he was specifically aiming his racism as any individual or individuals in the video.
I agree with everything you said except that one word. I am guessing that you meant "prosecuted" (institute legal proceedings against) and not "persecuted" (to harass or punish in a manner designed to injure, grieve, or afflict).
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Old 18th August 2020, 09:48 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
Do you reject the fact that he clearly tried to agitate these 3 guys?
Hmm. If I feel that you are clearly trying to agitate me, am I allowed to punch you?
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Old 18th August 2020, 09:51 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
The comments on the video suspect that the nazi has now severe brain damage. Which means he will be in some sort of nursing home soon. Prison would be great, but living as a vegetable is also great for him.
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Yeah, thanks for the good news, I hadn't seen that bit yet. Please share a link I think it would be great if this racist suffered long term, even permanent, suffering as a consequence of this incident. Let him be a lesson to other that may wish to stir race hatred and fear in the community.
This is truly an abhorrent perspective.
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Old 18th August 2020, 09:56 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
To those wringing your hands over this incident, you are aware of the high costs of racist and fascist government, right? If these nascent neo-fascist elements are successful in seizing power, as their historical predecessors did, the cost will be untold amounts of spilled blood to even have chance to remove them.

The Soviet Union won't be here to save us this time from the fascist menace, it'll be us westerners doing all the dying this time around.

These fascists must be opposed everywhere they have the courage to show their faces.
To those wringing your hands over this incident, you are aware of the high costs of sharia government, right? If these nascent Islamic elements are successful in seizing power, as their historical predecessors did, the cost will be untold amounts of spilled blood to even have chance to remove them.

These Islamist must be opposed everywhere they have the courage to show their faces.

++++

To those wringing your hands over this incident, you are aware of the high costs of communist government, right? If these nascent Marxist elements are successful in seizing power, as their historical predecessors did, the cost will be untold amounts of spilled blood to even have chance to remove them.

These Marxists must be opposed everywhere they have the courage to show their faces.
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Old 18th August 2020, 09:57 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Seriously, how can you seriously claim that the coward punch was self defence? It wasn't. It was vigilante justice, which you and others support.
It wasn't vigilante justice - there's no justice involved at all.
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Old 18th August 2020, 10:00 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Why, though?
Because it's your claim and you are basically predicting the future.

Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Once we've established the moral principle that it's good to lash out violently at people who say offensive things in public, there isn't any obvious reason to stop at one particular -ism.

Had the bloke on the train been shouting transphobic things at trans women, would it be wrong to deck him?
Setting up another cheap gotcha?
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Old 18th August 2020, 10:02 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
This is truly an abhorrent perspective.
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.

Last edited by zooterkin; 19th August 2020 at 07:47 AM.
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Old 18th August 2020, 10:03 AM   #144
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Just thinking aloud, but with the TBI and the atrocious accent, his next racist heckling may be totally incomprehensible. The language barrier may just save him from a second treatment, despite his intentions.
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Old 18th August 2020, 10:04 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
To those wringing your hands over this incident, you are aware of the high costs of sharia government, right? If these nascent Islamic elements are successful in seizing power, as their historical predecessors did, the cost will be untold amounts of spilled blood to even have chance to remove them.

These Islamist must be opposed everywhere they have the courage to show their faces.

++++

This is what the people say you so love to defend.

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
To those wringing your hands over this incident, you are aware of the high costs of communist government, right? If these nascent Marxist elements are successful in seizing power, as their historical predecessors did, the cost will be untold amounts of spilled blood to even have chance to remove them.

These Marxists must be opposed everywhere they have the courage to show their faces.
This is also what the people say you so love to defend.
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Old 18th August 2020, 10:05 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Unless you are a pacifism absolutist, you support the idea of righteous applications of violence. Don't play this canard, it's absurd.

Yes, I do think it's better when decent people are delivering the blows, and not fascists in control of the state. You really nailed me to the wall on that one.
It's not a canard. I'm not a pacifism absolutists (pacifism is dumb, imo). I am, however, staunchly non-aggressive. This is NOT self defense, or defense of another. This isn't defense in any reasonable way. This is aggression as a means to express disagreement. This is deciding that one's own beliefs about what is right and proper entitles one to commit acts of violence against those who transgress against your beliefs.

Might does not make right.
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Old 18th August 2020, 10:07 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I am, however, staunchly non-aggressive.
This is the reason why the alt-right feels safe to march through cities, screaming "Jews will not replace us! "
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Old 18th August 2020, 10:07 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
To those wringing your hands over this incident, you are aware of the high costs of sharia government, right? If these nascent Islamic elements are successful in seizing power, as their historical predecessors did, the cost will be untold amounts of spilled blood to even have chance to remove them.

These Islamist must be opposed everywhere they have the courage to show their faces.

++++

To those wringing your hands over this incident, you are aware of the high costs of communist government, right? If these nascent Marxist elements are successful in seizing power, as their historical predecessors did, the cost will be untold amounts of spilled blood to even have chance to remove them.

These Marxists must be opposed everywhere they have the courage to show their faces.

You have an uninformed view of communism and nazism if you think they can be equated beyond being an ideology about how people should and will behave.

Communism does not have a principle of a "master race", there is no part of the formulation of any form of communism which says it will kill millions of its fellow citizens as part of its principles.

Yes communism when attempted at a nation level has always failed but that's because it is an ideology and therefore a crap model of how people actually behave so like all ideologies it will fail and often fail with terrible consequences. But apart from the failure when implemented it does not bear comparison to nazism.
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Old 18th August 2020, 10:13 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
Ah here comes the good old "If we punch Nazis, society will become an unliveable nightmare because all of a sudden, people will randomly punch other people"



We talk about punching a Nazi, you bring up stabbing a radical preacher. What is wrong with you?
Think it through.

If we allow the punching of Nazis, we are saying, in effect, it's OK to punch people merely for holding abhorrent viewpoints. "Abhorrent," is a subjective word. I might find a radical preacher's views "abhorrent." Do I get to punch the abhorrent preacher because he's agitating me?

If society condones violence against one group of people for their views, I think it could indeed become a slippery slope. Once retaliatory violence is socially and legally acceptable, society (through the law) can start defining what "abhorrent" means and which groups it's acceptable to initiate violence against. Society should not condone violence against speech. You cannot initiate violence even when someone's speech is "fighting words." They can be arrested for fighting words but you are not protected against initiating violence in response. That's as it should be, IMO.
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Old 18th August 2020, 10:17 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
Setting up another cheap gotcha?
If by "cheap gotcha" you mean "Sincerely trying to understand the limits of the moral principle" you've posited here, then yes.

I notice that you've dodged the question, so I'm going to assume you do think it's good to punch the transphobe.
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Old 18th August 2020, 10:18 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Think it through.

If we allow the punching of Nazis, we are saying, in effect, it's OK to punch people merely for holding abhorrent viewpoints. "Abhorrent," is a subjective word. I might find a radical preacher's views "abhorrent." Do I get to punch the abhorrent preacher because he's agitating me?

If society condones violence against one group of people for their views, I think it could indeed become a slippery slope. Once retaliatory violence is socially and legally acceptable, society (through the law) can start defining what "abhorrent" means and which groups it's acceptable to initiate violence against. Society should not condone violence against speech. You cannot initiate violence even when someone's speech is "fighting words." They can be arrested for fighting words but you are not protected against initiating violence in response. That's as it should be, IMO.
I suppose you have to weigh this hypothetical slippery slope of antifascism, which despite a long history of bashing fascists, has not had this mission creep, to the known and explicit danger of the slippery slope of fascism, which invariably leads to state violence on a massive scale.
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Old 18th August 2020, 10:19 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
But apart from the failure when implemented it does not bear comparison to nazism.
Millions of dead Ukrainians, Cambodians, and Chinese might well disagree. I mean, given the chance.
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Old 18th August 2020, 10:20 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Think it through.

Already did.


Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
If we allow the punching of Nazis, we are saying, in effect, it's OK to punch people merely for holding abhorrent viewpoints. "Abhorrent," is a subjective word. I might find a radical preacher's views "abhorrent." Do I get to punch the abhorrent preacher because he's agitating me?

We do not "allow" the punching of Nazis nor did I ever advocate for legally allowing Nazis to be punched. Please read more than a single post before making ridiculous statements.



Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
If society condones violence against one group of people for their views, I think it could indeed become a slippery slope. Once retaliatory violence is socially and legally acceptable, society (through the law) can start defining what "abhorrent" means and which groups it's acceptable to initiate violence against. Society should not condone violence against speech. You cannot initiate violence even when someone's speech is "fighting words." They can be arrested for fighting words but you are not protected against initiating violence in response. That's as it should be, IMO.
Thanks for your opinion, feel free to come back when society has reached a level of:

"We punched Nazis, now we randomly punch everyone whose opinion we do not like"
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Old 18th August 2020, 10:20 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.
Can you support that accusation?
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Old 18th August 2020, 10:21 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I might find a radical preacher's views "abhorrent." Do I get to punch the abhorrent preacher because he's agitating me?
For the record, it is clearly abhorrent to say that unbelievers should be tortured with fire. Somehow, though, I refrained from lashing out.
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Old 18th August 2020, 10:21 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
This is what the people say you so love to defend.



This is also what the people say you so love to defend.
Who is it that you believe I'm defending? And can you provide anything to support your accusation?
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Old 18th August 2020, 10:23 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
This is the reason why the alt-right feels safe to march through cities, screaming "Jews will not replace us! "
And here I thought it was that whole Freedom of Speech and Freedom to Assemble thing... Silly me, thinking that protected rights in the US are actually protected, and not just selectively applied depending on whether or not you approve of the people doing the speaking or assembling.
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Old 18th August 2020, 10:24 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
For the record, it is clearly abhorrent to say that unbelievers should be tortured with fire. Somehow, though, I refrained from lashing out.
tell you what, if a decently sized movement of Christian Identity nuts start gaining steam, I think you should start swinging.

Unlike pastor cranks on college campuses, racists and fascists are a real and growing threat.
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Old 18th August 2020, 10:25 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Who is it that you believe I'm defending? And can you provide anything to support your accusation?
You get all hysterical when a Nazi gets decked, you claim Antifa uses fascist methods.
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.

Stop with the insults.

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Old 18th August 2020, 10:26 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
You have an uninformed view of communism and nazism if you think they can be equated beyond being an ideology about how people should and will behave.
I'm not drawing a parallel between communism and naziism. That's exactly my point though. The argument that some ideology in government has, in the past, resulted in death and suffering, is not sufficient justification for preemptively persecuting and attacking those who hold those beliefs. I would not support attacking Marxists for fear that they might turn out to be Stalinesque dictators. Nor would I attack Muslims for fear that they might institute Sharia law. That fear of potential outcome does not justify or excuse the initiation of violence against others on the basis of their beliefs.
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