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Old 18th August 2020, 10:27 AM   #161
d4m10n
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
tell you what, if a decently sized movement of Christian Identity nuts start gaining steam, I think you should start swinging.
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...of-the-people/
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Old 18th August 2020, 10:29 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
And here I thought it was that whole Freedom of Speech and Freedom to Assemble thing... Silly me, thinking that protected rights in the US are actually protected, and not just selectively applied depending on whether or not you approve of the people doing the speaking or assembling.
Ahh yes, the freedom to assemble. Seems for the fash, that also often seems to include the freedom to commit political violence directly in front of cops without consequence or interference.

The world of the omnipotent liberal state that referees civil rights and keeps everyone within the boundaries of acceptable expression doesn't exist outside your head. The cops clearly have their own interests, and more often than not, it's the nazis they line up with. You may have some suicide pact with the first amendment, but I trust you'll understand that others might have alternative plans.

The people chanting "jews will not replace us" want to commit violence, they will commit violence, and the people in charge of stopping them will look the other way, as they always do. Act accordingly.
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Old 18th August 2020, 10:29 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
You get all hysterical when a Nazi gets decked, you claim Antifa uses fascist methods.
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.
This "Nazi-cuddler" word you keep using sounds like it belongs in another language like Dutch or something and then awkwardly translated into English. Where'd you pick up this expression?

Last edited by zooterkin; 19th August 2020 at 07:50 AM.
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Old 18th August 2020, 10:30 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Hey, if you deck out Matt Shea, you won't hear me complaining. I might even buy you a beer.

ETA: I think you'll find that there is heavy overlap between Christian identity radicals, such as Matt "kill the nonbeliever" Shea and the other far right radical groups like white nationalists. Should push come to shove, I think they'll find themselves in a pretty seamless alliance.
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Old 18th August 2020, 10:39 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Millions of dead Ukrainians, Cambodians, and Chinese might well disagree. I mean, given the chance.
Yep like american democracy is based on genocide. So clearly that is morally unacceptable as well.
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Old 18th August 2020, 10:40 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by Ron Obvious View Post
This "Nazi-cuddler" word you keep using sounds like it belongs in another language like Dutch or something and then awkwardly translated into English. Where'd you pick up this expression?
I made it up myself. I originally made it in German: "Nazikuschler".

The word nazi-cuddler is a combination of the words "Nazi" and "to cuddle"

Hope I could help you out.
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Old 18th August 2020, 10:44 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yep like american democracy is based on genocide.
Fascinating perspective. Thanks for sharing.
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Old 18th August 2020, 10:46 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
I made it up myself. I originally made it in German: "Nazikuschler".
I thought as much. I don't think it really works in English and you may want to consider another expression.
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Old 18th August 2020, 10:47 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Fascinating perspective. Thanks for sharing.
Millions of dead natives agree after all.
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Old 18th August 2020, 10:48 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
We talk about punching a Nazi, you bring up stabbing a radical preacher. What is wrong with you?
It's a legitimate question.

Is it only nazis? And how do you confirm they're actually nazis?
Does it extend to any racism or is it exclusively limited to naziism?
Does it extend to other forms of bigotry?
Do the targets of this allowable violence need to belong to an organized group of some sort?
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Old 18th August 2020, 10:53 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Millions of dead natives agree after all.
Which specific events are you referencing?
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Old 18th August 2020, 10:57 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
You get all hysterical when a Nazi gets decked, you claim Antifa uses fascist methods. Last time I checked these were the traits of a Nazi-cuddler.
"Hysterical"? Such a nice, not at all misogynistic term for a woman speaking her mind. Even letting that slide, I don't believe my posts could rationally be considered hysterical.

All of antifa? no. Some of antifa? Let's see... intimidating people through threat of violence into not expressing their views - including political views? Yes, I think that qualifies. You might disagree what intimidating violence is a fascist technique, in which case we might discuss that. And you could argue that such behavior is not widespread among antifa supporters, and we could discuss that as well. I don't, however, think you can honestly claim that it doesn't happen at all.
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Old 18th August 2020, 11:04 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Which specific events are you referencing?
That would be the majority of american history. Millions dead clearly invalidates a form of government so this democracy crap also gets canceled for its body count.
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Old 18th August 2020, 11:24 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
That would be the majority of american history.
Oh, I see. I was thinking of millions dead as the result of specific ideologically-driven events such as the cultural revolution.
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Old 18th August 2020, 11:59 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Oh, I see. I was thinking of millions dead as the result of specific ideologically-driven events such as the cultural revolution.
How about manifest destiny as articulated by american democracy. But here I thought all you needed to do to invalidate it was tie the government as it calls itself to a few million deaths, which I did. Now suddenly that isn't good enough for you. Look the deaths invalidate communism and democracy deal with it.
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Old 18th August 2020, 12:06 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
How about manifest destiny as articulated by american democracy. But here I thought all you needed to do to invalidate it was tie the government as it calls itself to a few million deaths, which I did. Now suddenly that isn't good enough for you. Look the deaths invalidate communism and democracy deal with it.
The deaths due to communism were due to the imposition of Communism on the people, the deaths due to Nazism were due to the embracing of nazism by the people, the deaths in the US were not due to any particular political creed.
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Old 18th August 2020, 12:11 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by Lplus View Post
The deaths due to communism were due to the imposition of Communism on the people, the deaths due to Nazism were due to the embracing of nazism by the people, the deaths in the US were not due to any particular political creed.
Manifest destiny and white mans burden. As summaried by "all men are created equal" of course meaning only white men.
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Old 18th August 2020, 12:19 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Manifest destiny and white mans burden. As summaried by "all men are created equal" of course meaning only white men.
Is that supposed to be a political creed? or are you just throwing out buzzwords for us to admire?

Still, at least you agree the deaths weren't the result of Democracy.
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Old 18th August 2020, 12:21 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
You have an uninformed view of communism and nazism if you think they can be equated beyond being an ideology about how people should and will behave.

Communism does not have a principle of a "master race", there is no part of the formulation of any form of communism which says it will kill millions of its fellow citizens as part of its principles.

Yes communism when attempted at a nation level has always failed but that's because it is an ideology and therefore a crap model of how people actually behave so like all ideologies it will fail and often fail with terrible consequences. But apart from the failure when implemented it does not bear comparison to nazism.
I mean, aside from both of them being totalitarian statist ideologies, that...

... prioritize the collective over the individual...

... viciously persecute Incorrect Thought...

... and generally end up having to carry out mass extermination of undesirables...

... yeah, fascism and communism are nothign alike.
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Old 18th August 2020, 01:38 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I mean, aside from both of them being totalitarian statist ideologies, that...

... prioritize the collective over the individual...

... viciously persecute Incorrect Thought...

... and generally end up having to carry out mass extermination of undesirables...

... yeah, fascism and communism are nothign alike.
It depends whether you consider the defining characteristic of a political doctrine to be its stance on racism. If you do then they are most certainly nothing alike. On the other hand, if you consider the defining characteristic to be the numbers who die as a result of the imposition of the doctrine, then they are remarkably similar...
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Old 18th August 2020, 01:57 PM   #181
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Exclamation Looking for a generalization of the rule

If the general moral principle proposed above is substantively something like "It's good to initiate violence against people who speak in support of ideologies which have killed millions," the rule is going to include fascists and communists at the very least, probably also anyone who praises European colonialism (e.g. Columbus Day parade organizers) and those who advocate holy writ as a substitute for secular law.

ETA: I know that many will want to say that the rule only applies to people on the "wrong" side of the political spectrum from themselves. I really don't think that approach works, since anyone can ad hoc their way to moral justification if they refuse to generalize.
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Old 18th August 2020, 03:11 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
That would be the majority of american history. Millions dead clearly invalidates a form of government so this democracy crap also gets canceled for its body count.
You're being too nonspecific and likely conflating conquests that occurred before any tangible America existed and colonial expansion in the 1800s. I don't know if you are just presenting it like this to counter the anti-Marxist arguments.

Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Oh, I see. I was thinking of millions dead as the result of specific ideologically-driven events such as the cultural revolution.
Nazism and Marxism are not on the same plane. Communist thought was adopted to attempt to solve many real problems faced by the working class and peasantry who were oppressed for decades if not centuries. There were evil Marxist-Leninists on the level of Nazis for sure, but the underlying philosophy is very different from Nazism.

(anecdote; dismiss if you want) I've met plenty of Marxist communists who actually vote for some Democrats and are against the death penalty. If you can find a non-violent, non-genocidal neo-Nazi I'd love to see it.

Originally Posted by d4m10n
If the general moral principle proposed above is substantively something like "It's good to initiate violence against people who speak in support of ideologies which have killed millions," the rule is going to include fascists and communists at the very least, probably also anyone who praises European colonialism (e.g. Columbus Day parade organizers) and those who advocate holy writ as a substitute for secular law.
I don't disagree. It's sickening to see people praise killers like Che Guevara.
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Old 18th August 2020, 03:45 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
There were evil Marxist-Leninists on the level of Nazis for sure, but the underlying philosophy is very different from Nazism.
As an ethical consequentialist, I'm mostly concerned with outcomes rather than inputs.

Did fascism kill more people than KimismWP, StalinismWP, MaoismWP, and the Khmer Rouge?
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Old 18th August 2020, 05:08 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
As an ethical consequentialist, I'm mostly concerned with outcomes rather than inputs.

Did fascism kill more people than KimismWP, StalinismWP, MaoismWP, and the Khmer Rouge?
I don't know the answer to that question. It's worth noting that in practice Marxist-Leninist leaders behaved much more like fascists than what communist thinkers envisioned. I mean call communists delusional. But I would not put their ideology in the same league of evil as Nazism at all.

And again there are non-Marxist communists and Marxists who don't want the whole authoritarian transition at all. Hell, they were some of the first to suffer under Lenin, Stalin, etc. I struggle to see any neo-Nazis who don't applaud Hitler or don't want to continue the pogroms or implement a fascist state.
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Old 18th August 2020, 07:31 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by Ron Obvious View Post
I thought as much. I don't think it really works in English and you may want to consider another expression.
Is there a special reason for giving me this arrogant and totally useless english "lesson"?


Whatever, I don't care.
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Old 18th August 2020, 10:39 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
And again there are non-Marxist communists and Marxists who don't want the whole authoritarian transition at all.

The vast majority of us, yes. And the ones who don't are pretend Marxists.

Quote:
Hell, they were some of the first to suffer under Lenin, Stalin, etc.

It's another thing Hitler and Stalin had in common: They hated communists and Marxist.
Purgesof the Communist Party of the Soviet Union (Wiki)
I don't think Lenin was onboard with this. His main mistake was that he never managed to purge Stalin from the party, but he did warn them against him.

Quote:
I struggle to see any neo-Nazis who don't applaud Hitler or don't want to continue the pogroms or implement a fascist state.

You can often hear them deny it when they are in the polo-and-khaki stage, but then you have the recordings of what they say when they think that nobody's watching.
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Old 18th August 2020, 10:49 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
Is there a special reason for giving me this arrogant and totally useless english "lesson"?


Whatever, I don't care.

You probably shouldn't hyphenate it unless you use it as an adjective. Two words: nazi cuddler. Or maybe nazi hugger, like in tree hugger.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 18th August 2020, 11:44 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Millions of dead Ukrainians, Cambodians, and Chinese might well disagree. I mean, given the chance.
Why would they,?
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Old 18th August 2020, 11:48 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I'm not drawing a parallel between communism and naziism. That's exactly my point though. The argument that some ideology in government has, in the past, resulted in death and suffering, is not sufficient justification for preemptively persecuting and attacking those who hold those beliefs. I would not support attacking Marxists for fear that they might turn out to be Stalinesque dictators. Nor would I attack Muslims for fear that they might institute Sharia law. That fear of potential outcome does not justify or excuse the initiation of violence against others on the basis of their beliefs.
Nazism has as a principle killing millions of our fellow citizens, that has nothing to do with the failure of it to model actual human behaviour.

No form of communism has as a principle the killing of millions of our fellow citizens.
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Old 19th August 2020, 12:42 AM   #190
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Nazism didn't really have the principle of killing Jews at the point where it used the brown shirts to beat up communists and really any political opponents. Or not overtly. Even the Kristallnacht (night of broken glass) was November 1938, more than 4 years after the NSDAP had gotten rid of its own brown shirt hooligans in the Night of The Long Knives.

And even the Kristallnacht was not presented as wanting to kill some Jews. It was just the government announcing it will not protect those evil judeo-bolsheviks (and imagine me doing some conspicuous air quotes there) who had just assassinated a German ambassador. The subtext being, you know, in case you wanted to go beat up a few of them, now's your chance. Which lots of people did.

Actually sending SS sonderkommandos to murderize Jews didn't happen until the invasion of Poland in late 1939. And even after that, until the Wannsee Conference in 1942, the NSDAP leadership AND the SS were swearing that they totally wouldn't do something as barbaric as just straight up murderizing the Jews. The whole POINT of the Madagascar Plan was to be a supposely more civilized (though not REALLY) alternative to just killing them.


So why am I saying all this? Because basically the brown shirt idiots who went around beating up communists and whatnot in the early 1930's could also claim the moral high ground, just like the cretins going around committing aggravated assault against supposed nazis do nowadays. Wanting to kill some Jews wasn't why they were going around punching people in the face. On the contrary, at least as the official line went, they were just fighting against those bolsheviks and whatnot, who HAD in fact at that point already killed lots and lots of people in the USSR. They just didn't want commies in Germany, see?

So basically I'm seeing a disturbingly accurate parallel, to the point of being an equivalence, between the more violent brand of "anti-fascists" nowadays and the brown shirt wearing "anti-bolsheviks" back then.

But they managed to destroy democracy and the rule of the law anyway, didn't they?

And as they say, those who don't learn history are doomed to repeat the year
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Old 19th August 2020, 01:08 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I mean, aside from both of them being totalitarian statist ideologies, that...

... prioritize the collective over the individual...

... viciously persecute Incorrect Thought...

... and generally end up having to carry out mass extermination of undesirables...

... yeah, fascism and communism are nothign alike.
You are repeating the same mistake as others.
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Old 19th August 2020, 01:21 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Nazism didn't really have the principle of killing Jews at the point where it used the brown shirts to beat up communists and really any political opponents. Or not overtly.
...snip..
I use the term "Nazism" to distinguish it from the "National Socialist German Workers" platform, people today who wish to see Nazism imposed are not advocating for the "National Socialist German Workers" platform, they are advocating for an ideology that intentionally and doctrinally targets their fellow citizens to be killed.

For me it is the difference between someone advocating for Stalinism (which would be completely stupid since Stalinism was nothing but a dictatorship in which Stalin was the dictator and Stalin has - allegedly - been dead for some time) and communism.

Someone advocating for Stalinism would also be advocating for the murdering of many of their fellow citizens and I would see them being treated the same way we should treat Nazis.
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Old 19th August 2020, 01:21 AM   #193
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I hate disorganized mobs of all stripes so I generally oppose these extrajudicial skirmish in the streets thing between so-called Nazis and militant antiracists. Mistaken identity is far too easy and noncombatants get caught in the crossfire all the time.

More to the general point of the thread I don't like doxxing and going much further than shaming someone in the moment. Anything further if serious enough can be taken care of by law enforcement.
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Old 19th August 2020, 02:06 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
You are repeating the same mistake as others.
It is not a mistake - it is a difference in emphasis between the theoretical doctrines and the practical effects. Sure, theoretical communism is all sweetness and light - equality, fair shares, individuals working for the whole instead of themselves - but it ignores the selfish tribal nature of the human animal, which means there is no chance of the populace ever attaining the 100% altruism necessary for the perpetuation of communism without the need for force. Anyone who peddles communism without including the concommitant need for deaths is fundamentally dishonest.

Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I use the term "Nazism" to distinguish it from the "National Socialist German Workers" platform, people today who wish to see Nazism imposed are not advocating for the "National Socialist German Workers" platform, they are advocating for an ideology that intentionally and doctrinally targets their fellow citizens to be killed.

For me it is the difference between someone advocating for Stalinism (which would be completely stupid since Stalinism was nothing but a dictatorship in which Stalin was the dictator and Stalin has - allegedly - been dead for some time) and communism.

Someone advocating for Stalinism would also be advocating for the murdering of many of their fellow citizens and I would see them being treated the same way we should treat Nazis.
Then you need a new word. Nazism is the ideology of the National Socialist German Workers party. Maybe neo-nazism? Or maybe simply murderous racism.
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Old 19th August 2020, 02:08 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by Lplus View Post
...snip...


Then you need a new word. Nazism is the ideology of the National Socialist German Workers party. Maybe neo-nazism? Or maybe simply murderous racism.
Don't need a new word as the current use matches what I describe.
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Old 19th August 2020, 03:18 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
I hate disorganized mobs of all stripes so I generally oppose these extrajudicial skirmish in the streets thing between so-called Nazis and militant antiracists. Mistaken identity is far too easy and noncombatants get caught in the crossfire all the time.
I think we're even past the point where mistaken identity is the biggest problem. As we've seen in such threads, you can be accused of being a nazi, or at the very least a part of the problem, for merely not supporting some knuckle-dragging neanderthals' 'right' to beat up whoever they dislike. You don't even have to actually say anything racist, much less actually nazi, nor even be confused with anyone who actually did say such a thing. If you're not with them, then you're already the enemy.

Which, again, actually has disturbing parallels with the historical brown shirts in Germany and black shirts in Italy.

I'd say that essentially even supporting the rule of the law or democracy makes you 'the enemy' in some way or another... except I'm not even convinced that that is it. It seems to me like it's becoming just a self-contained case of the violent idiots just fighting for the right to be violent idiots. Whatever rationalization their specific group uses for why it's right to be a violent idiot, is just that: rationalization.
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Old 19th August 2020, 03:20 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Don't need a new word as the current use matches what I describe.
The only problem is that it also matches and is used for lots of other stuff, some of it more commonly than your use of it. So I'm not sure that a bit of clarity would hurt.
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Old 19th August 2020, 03:52 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
I think we're even past the point where mistaken identity is the biggest problem. As we've seen in such threads, you can be accused of being a nazi, or at the very least a part of the problem, for merely not supporting some knuckle-dragging neanderthals' 'right' to beat up whoever they dislike. You don't even have to actually say anything racist, much less actually nazi, nor even be confused with anyone who actually did say such a thing. If you're not with them, then you're already the enemy.

Which, again, actually has disturbing parallels with the historical brown shirts in Germany and black shirts in Italy.

I'd say that essentially even supporting the rule of the law or democracy makes you 'the enemy' in some way or another... except I'm not even convinced that that is it. It seems to me like it's becoming just a self-contained case of the violent idiots just fighting for the right to be violent idiots. Whatever rationalization their specific group uses for why it's right to be a violent idiot, is just that: rationalization.
I'm a Nazi, pedophile, terrorist defender to some of these people. For speaking out against these idiots who want a crusade and a halo above their heads.

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Old 19th August 2020, 03:57 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
I'm a Nazi, pedophile, terrorist defender to some of these people. For speaking out against these idiots who want a crusade and a halo above their heads.

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You forgot Racist, Fascist and Bigot - another three words flung about as part of the cancel culture at anyone who doesn't give the impression of being a card carrying communist.
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Old 19th August 2020, 04:09 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Nazism didn't really have the principle of killing Jews at the point where it used the brown shirts to beat up communists and really any political opponents. Or not overtly. Even the Kristallnacht (night of broken glass) was November 1938, more than 4 years after the NSDAP had gotten rid of its own brown shirt hooligans in the Night of The Long Knives.

And even the Kristallnacht was not presented as wanting to kill some Jews. It was just the government announcing it will not protect those evil judeo-bolsheviks (and imagine me doing some conspicuous air quotes there) who had just assassinated a German ambassador. The subtext being, you know, in case you wanted to go beat up a few of them, now's your chance. Which lots of people did.

Actually sending SS sonderkommandos to murderize Jews didn't happen until the invasion of Poland in late 1939. And even after that, until the Wannsee Conference in 1942, the NSDAP leadership AND the SS were swearing that they totally wouldn't do something as barbaric as just straight up murderizing the Jews. The whole POINT of the Madagascar Plan was to be a supposely more civilized (though not REALLY) alternative to just killing them.


So why am I saying all this? Because basically the brown shirt idiots who went around beating up communists and whatnot in the early 1930's could also claim the moral high ground, just like the cretins going around committing aggravated assault against supposed nazis do nowadays. Wanting to kill some Jews wasn't why they were going around punching people in the face. On the contrary, at least as the official line went, they were just fighting against those bolsheviks and whatnot, who HAD in fact at that point already killed lots and lots of people in the USSR. They just didn't want commies in Germany, see?

So basically I'm seeing a disturbingly accurate parallel, to the point of being an equivalence, between the more violent brand of "anti-fascists" nowadays and the brown shirt wearing "anti-bolsheviks" back then.

But they managed to destroy democracy and the rule of the law anyway, didn't they?

And as they say, those who don't learn history are doomed to repeat the year
The attempts to link modern day antifascists to the fascists of the 30's is ahistorical to the point of absurdity. I noticed in your description you totally elide the existence of left wing antifascists. I suppose that would cause a problem of painting the history as one of violent fascists vs non-violent good people, but the reality is that antifascists confronted fascists in quite bloody street brawls during this time.

Why compare today's antifa to brownshirts when the much more apt comparison exists?

Quote:
How many people belonged to the Antifaschistische Aktion is difficult to determine because there were no membership cards. Rather, the Antifaschistische Aktion developed out of the practical participation.

As well as being involved in political streetfights, the RMSS and Antifaschistische Aktion used their militant approach to develop a comprehensive network of self-defence for communities targeted by the Nazis, for example in "tenant protection" (Mieterschutz), action against evictions.[36] Initially, the RMSS units had minimal formal membership, but in the second half of 1932 local executive boards were created to co-ordinate the activities of the KPD, the Kampfbund, the RMSS and the now illegal Roter Frontkämpferbund , with the RMSS given a more distinct and almost paramilitary defence role, often co-operating on an ad hoc basis with the Reichsbanner.[37]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifaschistische_Aktion

Informally organized groups of ideologically diverse people taking direct action to defend their communities from organized fascist street fighters, sounds awfully familiar if you ask me.

Whether physically confronting nascent fascists is an effective strategy is a point that can be debated, but painting modern antifascists as the real brownshirts is grossly intellectually dishonest, and I find it hard to believe anyone proposes this argument in good faith.
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