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Old 19th August 2020, 04:15 AM   #201
SuburbanTurkey
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
I hate disorganized mobs of all stripes so I generally oppose these extrajudicial skirmish in the streets thing between so-called Nazis and militant antiracists. Mistaken identity is far too easy and noncombatants get caught in the crossfire all the time.

More to the general point of the thread I don't like doxxing and going much further than shaming someone in the moment. Anything further if serious enough can be taken care of by law enforcement.
There have been multiple occasions where the doxxing work of online antifa types has lead directly to law enforcement action.

It's quite clear that cops are often unwilling to investigate these cases unless the evidence is brought to them in a neat package and they are publicly shamed into action.
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Old 19th August 2020, 04:35 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post

Whether physically confronting nascent fascists is an effective strategy is a point that can be debated, but painting modern antifascists as the real brownshirts is grossly intellectually dishonest, and I find it hard to believe anyone proposes this argument in good faith.
It's awfully common nowadays. I have no idea why so many people went down this extremely stupid route. We truly live in Bizarroworld.
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Old 19th August 2020, 05:23 AM   #203
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No need to worry about racists on the tube.

Oh yeah, by the way, some British person attacked a migrant who landed in Kent after crossing the channel in a rubber dinghy. Tory's are disavowing this obvious manifestation of their racist policies for now, but the time may come where official and unofficial violence against "outsiders" becomes the norm.

Daily Mail fascists are clapping like seals in the comment section, a job well done protecting their isle from the foreign hordes.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a9677131.html
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Old 19th August 2020, 07:32 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Just as long as the side you support are doing the bashing.....
Well, that's what it comes down to, doesn't it? People who chin racists on trains feel they're doing what's right, and racists who chin people feel much the same way. It's just a cycle of violence that isn't going away because it's the nature of people to fight, often literally, over what they feel to be right, whether it's football, race, politics, religion, music, or an average bird who you think is giving you the eye and your mate Terry thinks is giving him the eye, lol.

Personally, I'm okay with violence. I was once berated on here for openly claiming I'd have smacked a bloke who was wearing a Hillsborough "Rent-A-Kill" shirt when it popped up in a thread. Having happily chinned someone on a train before who was being a nuisance to passengers, I don't really care one way or another about this story being discussed. That said, it's better to not get physically involved if you don't honestly have to, and I see many in here playing the role of Billy Big Bollocks, but I wonder how many would truly back up their talk, because it's one thing typing hard, another thing acting hard, and another thing entirely when it comes to backing up that talk in reality.

Having worked with Carlisle Security in the UK, who work with public transport, most of these trains have security/transport police not far away, able to get on the train a few stops away, providing someone blows the whistle. Here in Liverpool, there's a simple number people can text for free that appears on the train's destination screens in each carriage, so if anything like that were to happen, a simple text would alert the proper people who could then board said train asap.

If people want to play the hero, go for it, but be aware that you may be the one getting locked up for it, or, if you can't actually handle yourself, you may be the one getting put in a hospital bed. Don't act hard, be sensible about it. There's nothing wrong with standing up for people, but don't act like you're Grant Mitchell if you're actually Ian Beale, because when it comes down to it, you're the one being held accountable for your actions.
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Old 19th August 2020, 08:57 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The attempts to link modern day antifascists to the fascists of the 30's is ahistorical to the point of absurdity. I noticed in your description you totally elide the existence of left wing antifascists. I suppose that would cause a problem of painting the history as one of violent fascists vs non-violent good people, but the reality is that antifascists confronted fascists in quite bloody street brawls during this time.

Why compare today's antifa to brownshirts when the much more apt comparison exists?
First of all, I wasn't talking all the antifa, but just the subset of knuckle-dragging neanderthals who think it's OK to go punch someone just because they're not agreeing with your political views. That's not all the antifa, sorry.

But for those who do think that the proper thing to do is exactly what the brownshirts did, yeah, other than in the delusions of said knuckle-draggers, the more apt comparison IS with the brown shirts.

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifaschistische_Aktion

Informally organized groups of ideologically diverse people taking direct action to defend their communities from organized fascist street fighters, sounds awfully familiar if you ask me.

Whether physically confronting nascent fascists is an effective strategy is a point that can be debated, but painting modern antifascists as the real brownshirts is grossly intellectually dishonest, and I find it hard to believe anyone proposes this argument in good faith.
As even your Wiki link will tell you, those were a self DEFENSE organization. They weren't the ones going around looking to start a fight and beat someone up for not being on their side of the political spectrum. They were just trying to defend themeselves when the brown-shirts came and tried to do that.

Again, I realize that some knuckle-draggers don't actually have anything to "contribute" (and that's some heavy air quotes around "contribute") than being aggressive, violent idiots, and want to tell themselves that they're heroes if they do go start some violence. But nope. If all you have in common with a historical organization is half of its name, but otherwise stand for what they were trying to STOP, that doesn't mean you're the same.
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Old 19th August 2020, 10:27 AM   #206
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Just chiming in that if you want to advocate street violence against words, you are in fact a criminal or are at least a cheerleader for them.

Not that there's anything wrong with that. One of my favorite videos is Richard Spencer getting replay-punched to the tune of Hollaback Girl. But you have to acknowledge that you're not on Team Good Guy anymore. You are down in the gutters with the other wannabe cowboys. You kill someone if he cracks his skull on the drop, that's 100% on you. No excuses. You cowboys ok with that?
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Old 19th August 2020, 10:43 AM   #207
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He punched me on the Tube.
Lucky he didn't hit your Globes.
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Old 19th August 2020, 10:49 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Just chiming in that if you want to advocate street violence against words, you are in fact a criminal or are at least a cheerleader for them.

Not that there's anything wrong with that. One of my favorite videos is Richard Spencer getting replay-punched to the tune of Hollaback Girl. But you have to acknowledge that you're not on Team Good Guy anymore. You are down in the gutters with the other wannabe cowboys. You kill someone if he cracks his skull on the drop, that's 100% on you. No excuses. You cowboys ok with that?
Generally speaking, such action should be organized at the community level. Not that I will condemn the actions of individuals acting on their own, but the most effective kinds of action are those in which the entire community makes it clear that racists and fascists will not be tolerated.
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Old 19th August 2020, 10:59 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Generally speaking, such action should be organized at the community level. Not that I will condemn the actions of individuals acting on their own, but the most effective kinds of action are those in which the entire community makes it clear that racists and fascists will not be tolerated.
Sounds like 'might makes right'. To be clear, I'm ok with breaking certain laws big and small. Its the potential consequences that need to be accepted, warts and all.

Say the racist twat was seriously hurt or killed. Would it have been worth it? Explaining to your kids why daddy has to live in prison and you are losing your home, that kind of thing. Don't know about you, but my family's well-being is worth more than some drunken sap's ramblings on a subway. Maybe a different approach would be more productive?

Talk is cheap. Violence can be expensive.
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Old 19th August 2020, 11:03 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Sounds like 'might makes right'. To be clear, I'm ok with breaking certain laws big and small. Its the potential consequences that need to be accepted, warts and all.

Say the racist twat was seriously hurt or killed. Would it have been worth it? Explaining to your kids why daddy has to live in prison and you are losing your home, that kind of thing. Don't know about you, but my family's well-being is worth more than some drunken sap's ramblings on a subway. Maybe a different approach would be more productive?

Talk is cheap. Violence can be expensive.
And as the guys trying to intimidate and shove Jeremy Joseph Christian learned, there can be lethal consequences to you when you assault these train nutbags.
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Old 19th August 2020, 11:10 AM   #211
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Can't find any non tabloid sources, apologies for posting this trash here:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/124467...cist-unmasked/

Turns out Mr. Steele is the son wealthy parents and works for their company. Big shock there.

He also claims he doesn't want to press charges and is seeking help for his behavior.

If that's sincere, he may well have had the racism punched right out of him.

May be a moot point, as I've yet to see any sources claiming to ID the three men who were the targets of his racial abuse.
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Old 19th August 2020, 11:35 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
I think we're even past the point where mistaken identity is the biggest problem. As we've seen in such threads, you can be accused of being a nazi, or at the very least a part of the problem, for merely not supporting some knuckle-dragging neanderthals' 'right' to beat up whoever they dislike. You don't even have to actually say anything racist, much less actually nazi, nor even be confused with anyone who actually did say such a thing. If you're not with them, then you're already the enemy.

Do you actually mean that? It sounds absurd. Not even the Nazis wanted the "'right' to beat up whoever they dislike." They were pretty explicit about the groups that they wanted the right to beat up: communists, left-wing social democrats, Jews, gypsies and homosexuals. Those were the true enemies of the Aryan people, according to the Nazis, and a lot of those enemies weren't just beat up, they were killed outright, as were other undesirables, primarily the mentally retarded or the mentally ill. Not because they were considered to be actual enemies, but because the Nazis wanted to purify the race and get rid of deadweight.
Later Slavs were added to the list to make Lebensraum for the Aryans.

I am not sure exactly who you are talking about when you mention "some knuckle-dragging neanderthals," but based on the context, it sounds as if they are the people who want to put a stop to nazis. Is that assumption correct?

If it is, I would like to hear you explain 1) why you describe them as racially inferior to Homo sapiens, "knuckle dragging", and 2) why you think that people who beat up nazis want to beat up "whoever they dislike."
To me, it seems to be a very specific group of people they want to beat up, nazis, and not just everybody they happen to dislike for whatever reason, so it would be interesting to hear your point of view on this.
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Old 19th August 2020, 12:00 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Can't find any non tabloid sources, apologies for posting this trash here:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/124467...cist-unmasked/

Turns out Mr. Steele is the son wealthy parents and works for their company. Big shock there.

He also claims he doesn't want to press charges and is seeking help for his behavior.

If that's sincere, he may well have had the racism punched right out of him.

May be a moot point, as I've yet to see any sources claiming to ID the three men who were the targets of his racial abuse.
Got my doubts that he's seen the err of his ways. It was his mommy speaking for him in that article, who likely doesn't want bad press for their financial and social status.
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Old 19th August 2020, 12:07 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Got my doubts that he's seen the err of his ways. It was his mommy speaking for him in that article, who likely doesn't want bad press for their financial and social status.
Perhaps. I would guess that getting your ass beat in public and having everyone pretty much agree you had it coming is a bit of wake up call. True introspection may be happening here.

If not, then chalk up another win for cancel culture, which is at least making these racists more reticent to speak their minds. Rich parents having to reign in their fail-sons may not be the optimal outcome, but it's a small victory nonetheless.
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Old 19th August 2020, 12:12 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
If not, then chalk up another win for cancel culture, which is at least making these racists more reticent to speak their minds.
Congratulations! You've unlocked the achievement "praising vigilante violence against abhorrent speech."
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Old 19th August 2020, 12:13 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Nazism has as a principle killing millions of our fellow citizens, that has nothing to do with the failure of it to model actual human behaviour.

No form of communism has as a principle the killing of millions of our fellow citizens.
Do you object to my parallel with Sharia law?
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Old 19th August 2020, 12:18 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
Dude, look at his body language when they get up. He asks for it and then he gets what he wants.

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Do uppity women, minorities who don't know their place and queers get what they want too?
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Old 19th August 2020, 12:20 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Generally speaking, such action should be organized at the community level. Not that I will condemn the actions of individuals acting on their own, but the most effective kinds of action are those in which the entire community makes it clear that racists and fascists will not be tolerated.
Let me get this clear... You are advocating for organized intentional violence against people that you deem to be racists and/or fascists, is that right?
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Old 19th August 2020, 12:21 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Congratulations! You've unlocked the achievement "praising vigilante violence against abhorrent speech."
A bit late, should have unlocked that one months ago.

You can keep trying to shame me by restating this, but it doesn't really work when I am explicitly saying that violence against public displays of racism and fascism is not only excusable, but an imperative.
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Old 19th August 2020, 12:24 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Do you actually mean that? It sounds absurd. Not even the Nazis wanted the "'right' to beat up whoever they dislike." They were pretty explicit about the groups that they wanted the right to beat up: communists, left-wing social democrats, Jews, gypsies and homosexuals.
Sure, sure, that's what they said, and they were very explicit about it. Just like some of the advocates in the US right now are very explicit about wanting the right to beat up nazis and fascists.

The real question is whether or not the Nazis only beat up communists, left-wing social democrats, Jews, gypsies, and homosexuals... or whether they also beat up people that were simply accused of or insinuated to be in one of those categories?

Being explicit about which groups are allowable targets for violence is only useful if there's a requirement to demonstrate beyond a reasonable doubt that the target actually belongs to that group prior to beating them up.
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Old 19th August 2020, 12:26 PM   #221
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I asked this yesterday and it seems to have been missed. So I shall ask again:

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
It's a legitimate question.

Is it only nazis? And how do you confirm they're actually nazis?
Does it extend to any racism or is it exclusively limited to naziism?
Does it extend to other forms of bigotry?
Do the targets of this allowable violence need to belong to an organized group of some sort?
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Old 19th August 2020, 12:29 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
You can keep trying to shame me by restating this, but it doesn't really work when I am explicitly saying that violence against public displays of racism and fascism is not only excusable, but an imperative.
People also claimed that violence against public displays of homosexuality were not only excusable, but an imperative. And that violence against public displays of abortion were not only excusable, but an imperative. And that violence against public displays of Catholicism were not only excusable, but an imperative.

Why do you think that your belief gives you license to advocate for violence against others?
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Old 19th August 2020, 12:33 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I asked this yesterday and it seems to have been missed. So I shall ask again:
I'd answer generally, punch who you feel compelled to punch. But ya better be prepared to live with an unexpected outcome. Violence can be a deadly serious game. Make sure you accept the stakes.
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Old 19th August 2020, 12:35 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
...I am explicitly saying that violence against public displays of racism and fascism is not only excusable, but an imperative.
Hopefully everyone will spontaneously agree those are the only -isms on the table here, regardless of their own political leanings.
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Old 19th August 2020, 12:37 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Do uppity women, minorities who don't know their place and queers get what they want too?
It's open to anybody.
Try hard enough and you will find yourself able to instigate a fight.
It was very clear that is exactly what Mr. Steele was doing, and he achieved his aim.
He is not pressing charges. He knows he did that to himself.
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Old 19th August 2020, 12:40 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I'd answer generally, punch who you feel compelled to punch. But ya better be prepared to live with an unexpected outcome. Violence can be a deadly serious game. Make sure you accept the stakes.
Your position seems to be a bit different than that expressed by Suburban Turkey and RedStapler. You inherently admit that the action of punching other people is an act of criminal violence, but you are willing to commit that criminal act in some cases and take the penalty that comes with it. You seem to implicitly acknowledge that initiating violence shouldn't be generally allowed.

Both Suburban Turkey and RedStapler seem more to be saying that they think initiating violence against some people should be allowed. Not only that, but initiating violence against some people is a moral imperative.
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Old 19th August 2020, 12:40 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
A bit late, should have unlocked that one months ago.

You can keep trying to shame me by restating this, but it doesn't really work when I am explicitly saying that violence against public displays of racism and fascism is not only excusable, but an imperative.
Had Mr. Steele not been quite so obvious about spoiling for a fight, and instead was seated and calmly stating his views in a less aggressive fashion- would the assault still be acceptable?
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Old 19th August 2020, 12:41 PM   #228
dann
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
People also claimed that violence against public displays of homosexuality were not only excusable, but an imperative.

I think those people were Nazis, weren't they?!
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Old 19th August 2020, 12:42 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I'd answer generally, punch who you feel compelled to punch. But ya better be prepared to live with an unexpected outcome. Violence can be a deadly serious game. Make sure you accept the stakes.
I am just waiting for anyone to admit that the shoving of Jeremy Joseph Christian was criminal violence(assault specifically). Regarding these thugs as heroes just because they lost the fight seems excessive.
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Old 19th August 2020, 12:51 PM   #230
dann
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Sure, sure, that's what they said, and they were very explicit about it. Just like some of the advocates in the US right now are very explicit about wanting the right to beat up nazis and fascists.

The real question is whether or not the Nazis only beat up communists, left-wing social democrats, Jews, gypsies, and homosexuals... or whether they also beat up people that were simply accused of or insinuated to be in one of those categories?

Thank you. You make it clear where you are coming from with your "real question": It wasn't so bad when "the Nazis only beat up communists, left-wing social democrats, Jews, gypsies, and homosexuals." However, it would have become intolerable if they had started beating up good people: conservatives, Christians, patriots ...

Quote:
Being explicit about which groups are allowable targets for violence is only useful if there's a requirement to demonstrate beyond a reasonable doubt that the target actually belongs to that group prior to beating them up.

Do you mean if there is reason to assume that they aren't communists, left-wing social democrats, Jews, gypsies, or homosexuals?!
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 19th August 2020, 12:57 PM   #231
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If only there were some evidence to say whether peaceful means or violent means are more successful.

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/sto...itical-change/
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Old 19th August 2020, 01:09 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Your position seems to be a bit different than that expressed by Suburban Turkey and RedStapler. You inherently admit that the action of punching other people is an act of criminal violence, but you are willing to commit that criminal act in some cases and take the penalty that comes with it. You seem to implicitly acknowledge that initiating violence shouldn't be generally allowed.

Both Suburban Turkey and RedStapler seem more to be saying that they think initiating violence against some people should be allowed. Not only that, but initiating violence against some people is a moral imperative.
Auto contraire: I am generally generally not willing to do so. Because I value people, even reprehensible ones, who can at least in theory turn their lives around. Rehabilitation and all. So I don't personally advocate playing games where death is a likely card to pull.

But I also am perfectly fine with criminal activity. Sort of. The Law is not my God and whatnot. If morally justified, have at it. But you should acknowledge openly that you are not on the moral high ground. Moral gutter maybe.
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Old 19th August 2020, 01:17 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
If only there were some evidence to say whether peaceful means or violent means are more successful.

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/sto...itical-change/
I'm not holding my breath for the people decrying the violence to get off their couches to do anything, non-violent or otherwise.
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Old 19th August 2020, 01:23 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Your position seems to be a bit different than that expressed by Suburban Turkey and RedStapler. You inherently admit that the action of punching other people is an act of criminal violence, but you are willing to commit that criminal act in some cases and take the penalty that comes with it. You seem to implicitly acknowledge that initiating violence shouldn't be generally allowed.

Both Suburban Turkey and RedStapler seem more to be saying that they think initiating violence against some people should be allowed. Not only that, but initiating violence against some people is a moral imperative.


Having just picked up on this thread, I find it hard to believe that certain posters appear not to understand that punching someone in the face so hard that you knock them out, when it's not in self defence*, is a serious criminal offence in every westernised jurisdiction, usually resulting in improsonment upon conviction, And there are very sound legal and ethical reasons why this should be the case.

Frankly, I'm astonished (and somewhat disgusted) by the views of those who argue that the guy on the tube "had it coming" on acount of the words - and the marginally threatening body language - that he'd used. The guy on the tube appears to have committed a criminal offence through what he said. If a good film of him had found its way to the police, he should have been (and should be) prosecuted accordingly. But what that guy did IN NO WAY justifies, excuses or is deserving of getting punched into unconsciousness. The talk on here about "community payback" is even more shocking, and is arguably worthy of law enforcement notice in and of itself.

What should happen in this case is perfectly simple: the guy should be charged with a public order offence (based on his words and actions), and the man who punched him out should be charged with either assault or ABH. And as others have already pointed out, had that guy died of a brain haemorrhage (either from the punch itself or from hitting his head on the way down), the man who punched him should have found himself charged with murder.


* For the avoidance of doubt, "self-defence" here does not apply to someone haraguing you or others with words (no matter how vile or obscene), and nor does it apply to someone squaring up to you. In colloquial terms, the act of punching somebody out could really only be viewed as self-defence (or a judicial defence in general) if the other person had either a) started a physical assault upon you without other weapons, b) was committing a serious crime (eg rape) upon another person, c) was coming at you or another person with a deadly weapon such as a knife, or d) brandished a firearm in such a way as you reasonably thought was going to be used on you or another person. None of these apply in the situation under discussion.
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Old 19th August 2020, 01:25 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I'm not holding my breath for the people decrying the violence to get off their couches to do anything, non-violent or otherwise.


Bloody hell. There are no words.

Welcome to the critical thinking forum.
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Old 19th August 2020, 01:33 PM   #236
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It's very hard to feel any sympathy for this kind of scumbag. He was looking for a confrontation and he got it. Might even teach him to keep his mouth shut next time.
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Old 19th August 2020, 01:35 PM   #237
LondonJohn
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I'd answer generally, punch who you feel compelled to punch. But ya better be prepared to live with an unexpected outcome. Violence can be a deadly serious game. Make sure you accept the stakes.


You do realise that any punch (when not in a justified defence as I outlined a few posts upthread) is a criminal offence? Yes, some may result in a more serious criminal offence being committed. But every punch has serious consequences in any modern liberal democracy, given that the charge can be proven.
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Old 19th August 2020, 01:36 PM   #238
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
It's very hard to feel any sympathy for this kind of scumbag. He was looking for a confrontation and he got it. Might even teach him to keep his mouth shut next time.

smh
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Old 19th August 2020, 01:38 PM   #239
LondonJohn
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*checks forum description*

This is a critical thinking forum, isn't it?

Or have I fallen down some sort of rabbit hole?
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Old 19th August 2020, 01:39 PM   #240
SuburbanTurkey
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
If only there were some evidence to say whether peaceful means or violent means are more successful.

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/sto...itical-change/
To be fair, the type of community defense I'm talking about here isn't really a broader social movement. It's a single issue thing, punching racists and fash that are a danger to the community. Antifa isn't advocating for any specific political theory other than the idea that Nazis are dangerous and shouldn't be allowed to organize uninhibited.
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