ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 19th August 2020, 03:42 PM   #321
RolandRat
Muse
 
RolandRat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 528
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
You're asking why we should take advice on how to overcome [problem A] from the people who successfully overcame [problem A] rather than from the people who caused [problem A]?

I dunno, that seems pretty straightforward to me. I mean, I think advice from someone who has successfully cleaned graffiti off of the side of buildings would probably be a better option for how to get graffiti off of walls than advice from the person who put the graffiti there in the first place. But maybe that's just me.
Yet hackers seem to get employed as security consultants.
RolandRat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2020, 03:44 PM   #322
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 12,450
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Ok, but I hit that already, too. I think our break is that I am concerned with consequences, not obedience. To use a more trivial example, I will speed if I think I can get away with it safely, even though the law says not to.

The law says your not supposed to jump people. But I'm not going in a bad neighborhood running my mouth, even if the law says I can. Consequences are the only factor on my radar.

Eta: Emily's Ninja got me more eloquently
It's a concept I can understand, but which is also difficult to express.
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2020, 03:46 PM   #323
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 12,450
Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
Oh, it absolutely was.
And it was totally his own damn fault that the abortion doctor got himself shot, too. And that girl in the short skirt - she had that coming to her too.
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2020, 03:46 PM   #324
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 15,876
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post


"If you cannot convince a Jew, acquaint their body with the rack."

- paraphrased from Torquemada


And still some within this thread (dealing with acceptable - and unacceptable, and illegal - reactions to racial abuse) cannot fathom the irony......
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2020, 03:47 PM   #325
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 7,511
Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Yeah.... you ought to read up about how/why laws are made (and unmade) in modern liberalised democracies. I touched on the subject in a recent post here (HINT: we're a long way from "tablets of stone" in 2020)
I'm not interested in your political propaganda. Anyone who actually uses critical thinking will test these claims about where laws come from, or more in particular, whose interests they serve.

But even so, let's assume that most people agreed with the decrees of your book of laws, that doesn't mean that skeptics are required to agree with the tenets of it. That would be an ad populum.

Quote:
You can't possibly be comparing a) actions during war under illegal occupying forces with b) 2020 in the USA or Europe, can you? YOU CAN?? Wow.
I'm not comparing them, I'm pointing out the irony in your argument of "it's illegal therefor it should not be done" when applied to the subject of nazis.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin

Last edited by caveman1917; 19th August 2020 at 04:02 PM.
caveman1917 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2020, 03:48 PM   #326
RedStapler
Muse
 
RedStapler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Posts: 761
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
And it was totally his own damn fault that the abortion doctor got himself shot, too. And that girl in the short skirt - she had that coming to her too.
Anything else besides useless strawmen? And cut down this "holier than thou" attitude, it's tiring.

Last edited by RedStapler; 19th August 2020 at 03:49 PM.
RedStapler is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2020, 03:49 PM   #327
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 7,511
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
You're asking why we should take advice on how to overcome [problem A] from the people who successfully overcame [problem A] rather than from the people who caused [problem A]?
No I am not.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2020, 03:50 PM   #328
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 15,876
Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
The man who got punched was not just ranting. He had picked out three people for special attention and was doing all he could to goad them into a fight.


*sigh*

But he did not hit (or make any physical contact) with any of those three men.

And none of those three man had the right - in law or in ethics - to puch him in the face (and with such force that he was knocked unconscious).

Maybe I should give up trying to explain this. Maybe you could try asking a lawyer or a judge or a police oficer or a legislator why "he was asking for it" doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2020, 03:50 PM   #329
Distracted1
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 4,909
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
You're asking why we should take advice on how to overcome [problem A] from the people who successfully overcame [problem A] rather than from the people who caused [problem A]?

I dunno, that seems pretty straightforward to me. I mean, I think advice from someone who has successfully cleaned graffiti off of the side of buildings would probably be a better option for how to get graffiti off of walls than advice from the person who put the graffiti there in the first place. But maybe that's just me.
To abuse your analogy, whose advice should we solicit if we wish to address the problem of graffiti as a whole?
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2020, 03:50 PM   #330
RedStapler
Muse
 
RedStapler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Posts: 761
Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
And still some within this thread (dealing with acceptable - and unacceptable, and illegal - reactions to racial abuse) cannot fathom the irony......
It is absolutely acceptable to break a racists face.
RedStapler is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2020, 03:51 PM   #331
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 26,633
Wow, this is a fast-moving thread.

Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
...

2) It is never correct to respond to such behaviour with physical violence, even if the person is "looking for a confrontation" (unless the person has initiated a physical assault upon you)
Rugby figured that out years ago, when it was decided that retaliation is as bad the initial assault and should be penalised accordingly.

Society always lags sport by a few years.

Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I thought it had peaked when I was called a nazi sympathiser for calling on police action rather than vigilante violence, but no.
You have to admit, that's pretty funny as well as absurd.

I love the way the left has suddenly become Nazis.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2020, 03:52 PM   #332
RedStapler
Muse
 
RedStapler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Posts: 761
Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post

Maybe I should give up trying to explain this.
Yeah, you really should, since you are not explaining but ranting.
RedStapler is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2020, 03:52 PM   #333
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 12,450
Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
It's the "where he merits it appropriate to do so" that I'm wondering about. Even a speeding ticket (assuming one gets caught when one is speeding) has real consequences in terms of things like increased car insurance premiums.

So in one sense, a very rich person might (and often, apparently, does) think: "I don't care about speeding, because I don't care about being caught speeding, because I don't care about having to pay a fair bit more for my car insurance".

And I notice that Thermal indeed used the "speeding" example in his own reply to my post. But of course traffic offences are a different order of magnitude from criminal offences.

And that is precisely why I wondered what types of laws Thermal might find it "appropriate" to break. Would he ever find it "appropriate" to steal a bar of chocolate from a supermarket? Would he ever find it "appropriate" to make materially false declarations on a mortgage application? Would he ever find it "appropriate" to force himself sexually onto a date after dinner, despite the woman saying no? Would he ever find it "appropriate" to punch in the face someone who was using inflammatory (and criminal) language? And if none of these, then WHICH?

And in each of the above cases, would his decision about whether or not to deem it "appropriate" take into account his perceived likelihood of being caught?
My take on Thermal is that he's a pretty good guy. I would guess that he would be willing to break smallish laws that he disagrees with, like speeding, maybe drugs (no idea if he indulges), but is also completely willing to pay the price of those actions if caught.

I don't get the impression that Thermal would engage in theft, vandalism, or any kind of aggressive violence. But he might, I surmise, be quite willing to beat up a thief or a vandal or someone trying to harm someone else - even if it constitutes assault. And he'd be willing to pay the price for that too.

He might very well be willing to initiate violence against someone spouting racist abuse at another person, in extreme circumstances. But he wouldn't be arguing that he should be "allowed" to do so, or that it was morally right to do so. I think he'd still recognize and acknowledge that he broke the law in doing so, but that he felt it was a fair trade.

That's my impression... but I could be wrong
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2020, 03:53 PM   #334
RedStapler
Muse
 
RedStapler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Posts: 761
nvm
RedStapler is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2020, 03:53 PM   #335
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 12,450
Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
It was a criminal act. He totally deserved it. That said, I expect if the police catch the guy who threw the punch they will come to the decision to charge him. I would agree with that decision.
If you commit a criminal act, let's say you shoplift a candybar... does that imply that you deserve getting punched into unconsciousness?
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2020, 03:53 PM   #336
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 15,876
Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
Anything else besides useless strawmen? And cut down this "holier than thou" attitude, it's tiring.


They're not strawman (yes, I know how sophisticated and "knowing" that term seems). They're actually a form of reductio ad absurdum - except that in this case they don't even have to go so far as to become absurd in order to prove the point (or rather, to disprove yours).
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2020, 03:55 PM   #337
Distracted1
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 4,909
Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
*sigh*

But he did not hit (or make any physical contact) with any of those three men.

And none of those three man had the right - in law or in ethics - to puch him in the face (and with such force that he was knocked unconscious).

Maybe I should give up trying to explain this. Maybe you could try asking a lawyer or a judge or a police oficer or a legislator why "he was asking for it" doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
Yet it does.
"Fighting words" exists as a legal concept in part because it is recognized as a factor in assaults.
Stemming from the ethics of civilized behavior and acceptable responses to someone who has chosen to abandon it.
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2020, 03:55 PM   #338
RedStapler
Muse
 
RedStapler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Posts: 761
Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
They're not strawman (yes, I know how sophisticated and "knowing" that term seems). They're actually a form of reductio ad absurdum - except that in this case they don't even have to go so far as to become absurd in order to prove the point (or rather, to disprove yours).
They were strawmen, please learn what this word means.
RedStapler is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2020, 03:56 PM   #339
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 12,450
Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
People have lost their minds.
I'm pretty sure the world has gone mad.
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2020, 03:56 PM   #340
RedStapler
Muse
 
RedStapler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Posts: 761
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
But he wouldn't be arguing that he should be "allowed" to do so, or that it was morally right to do so.
More strawmen. Could you pretty please show the post where someone argued that he should be allowed to assault racists?
RedStapler is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2020, 03:57 PM   #341
Sherkeu
Graduate Poster
 
Sherkeu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Disneyland
Posts: 1,755
Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
Can you please show us your posts where you spoke out against the openly racist people in this forum?

If not, can I assume that you are only upset when a racist gets a nice beatdown?

My opinion on the use of violence applies in all cases.
Purity tests are for cults.
Sherkeu is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2020, 03:57 PM   #342
Distracted1
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 4,909
Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
They're not strawman (yes, I know how sophisticated and "knowing" that term seems). They're actually a form of reductio ad absurdum - except that in this case they don't even have to go so far as to become absurd in order to prove the point (or rather, to disprove yours).
Also logically fallacious.
https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/...io-ad-Absurdum
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2020, 03:58 PM   #343
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 12,450
Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
Also very telling that you ignore the fact that harrasing people on the train is also a crime.
Nobody is ignoring that. It's been pretty clearly stated that his crime of harassment should be handled by the authorities, NOT BY PRIVATE CITIZENS.

Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
If the guy had kept his dumb mouth shut, nothing of this would have happened.
Yep, if that bitch had just kept her mouth shut, she wouldn't have needed to be hit in the eye.

I'm actually quite disturbed by people parroting the logic of domestic abuse as if it's a reasonable justification.
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2020, 03:59 PM   #344
RedStapler
Muse
 
RedStapler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Posts: 761
Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post

My opinion on the use of violence applies in all cases.
Purity tests are for cults.
I was talking about your silly "I expect a higher standard". I asked you if you have commented on the openly racist posts in this forum.

By now, all I see is you participating in a thread where some random racist pig got a nice blow to the face and you obviously take his side.
RedStapler is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2020, 04:01 PM   #345
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 12,450
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
You don't need to be aligned with anyone's values to have a strong interest in getting the answer to a particular question right. Namely the question: what is the weakness of fascists? The fascists having a strong interest as they didn't want to fail, and the communists having a strong interest as they didn't want to be thrown into concentration camps if the fascists did not fail. So until you come up with something better, I'll go by this: It is always justified to punch a fascist.
I keep not getting answers. Let's try it again, with a slight twist.


Is it only fascists? And how do you confirm they're actually fascism?
Does it extend to any authoritarianism or is it exclusively limited to fascism?
Does it extend to other forms of oppression?
Do the targets of this allowable violence need to belong to an organized group of some sort?
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.

Last edited by zooterkin; 19th August 2020 at 11:53 PM. Reason: Removing broken quote tag
Emily's Cat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2020, 04:01 PM   #346
RedStapler
Muse
 
RedStapler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Posts: 761
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Nobody is ignoring that. It's been pretty clearly stated that his crime of harassment should be handled by the authorities, NOT BY PRIVATE CITIZENS.
Yeah, we already had that. Try reading the whole thread instead of mindlessly jumping in in the middle. The police would either have done absolutely nothing or the guy would have been fined a small amount of money, reassuring him that racist harassment is totally worth it.


Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Yep, if that bitch had just kept her mouth shut, she wouldn't have needed to be hit in the eye.

I'm actually quite disturbed by people parroting the logic of domestic abuse as if it's a reasonable justification.
Wow, another strawman, ridiculous. Do you think comparing domestic abuse with racist harassment makes you look like an informed person?

Last edited by RedStapler; 19th August 2020 at 04:03 PM.
RedStapler is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2020, 04:01 PM   #347
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 15,876
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
My take on Thermal is that he's a pretty good guy. I would guess that he would be willing to break smallish laws that he disagrees with, like speeding, maybe drugs (no idea if he indulges), but is also completely willing to pay the price of those actions if caught.

I don't get the impression that Thermal would engage in theft, vandalism, or any kind of aggressive violence. But he might, I surmise, be quite willing to beat up a thief or a vandal or someone trying to harm someone else - even if it constitutes assault. And he'd be willing to pay the price for that too.

He might very well be willing to initiate violence against someone spouting racist abuse at another person, in extreme circumstances. But he wouldn't be arguing that he should be "allowed" to do so, or that it was morally right to do so. I think he'd still recognize and acknowledge that he broke the law in doing so, but that he felt it was a fair trade.

That's my impression... but I could be wrong


And that's fair enough, at one level (and precisely part of my "wondering" was as you describe - what kind of laws was he talking about, and why).

But on the other hand, more than one serial or spree killer has stated that they knew they were going to get caught, and that they would spend the rest of their lives behind bars (or be executed), but that the killings were still worth it.

So do we allow any person to make their own personal judgement about what type/level of crime is "worth it"? Would we say to the convicted spree killer as they get taken out of court to death row "Well, you deemed it appropriate and "worth it" to kill all those people, so that's OK I guess"?


(NB: this obviously IS a form of reductio to the extreme, in order to illustrate the point. But one could easily do it for any crime in the scale. Drug dealers, for example, who judge that it's "worth it" to sell Class A drugs to kids....)
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2020, 04:02 PM   #348
Distracted1
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 4,909
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
And it was totally his own damn fault that the abortion doctor got himself shot, too. And that girl in the short skirt - she had that coming to her too.
Mr. Steeles' skirt was off, his tongue was down the guys' throat, and he was grinding against his assailants crotch saying "do me baby!", if you are going to be comparing apples and oranges.
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2020, 04:04 PM   #349
Elaedith
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,307
[quote=RedStapler;13195195]
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Nobody is ignoring that. It's been pretty clearly stated that his crime of harassment should be handled by the authorities, NOT BY PRIVATE CITIZENS.




Wow, another strawman, ridiculous. Do you think comparing domestic abuse with racist harassment makes you look like an informed person?
Do you not understand that changing the surface content of an argument to illustrate the absurdity of the underlying principle of the argument is not a strawman?
Elaedith is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2020, 04:04 PM   #350
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 12,450
Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
Can you please show us your posts where you spoke out against the openly racist people in this forum?

If not, can I assume that you are only upset when a racist gets a nice beatdown?
That's a bad assumption. Especially given that you've implied that several people, including myself and lionking, if memory serves, are racists. Not because anything we've said is racist, but because we disagree with your stance that it's moral and acceptable to punch people.
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2020, 04:04 PM   #351
Distracted1
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 4,909
Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
I was talking about your silly "I expect a higher standard". I asked you if you have commented on the openly racist posts in this forum.

By now, all I see is you participating in a thread where some random racist pig got a nice blow to the face and you obviously take his side.
The new left.
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2020, 04:06 PM   #352
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 12,450
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Call it a hunch.
Again... what have you done?
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2020, 04:06 PM   #353
Distracted1
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 4,909
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
That's a bad assumption. Especially given that you've implied that several people, including myself and lionking, if memory serves, are racists. Not because anything we've said is racist, but because we disagree with your stance that it's moral and acceptable to punch people.
It is a fun turnabout for some of us.
Of course, that can never be the case in other threads when someone has the audacity to challenge the narrarative. Only in this one.
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2020, 04:07 PM   #354
RedStapler
Muse
 
RedStapler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Posts: 761
[quote=Elaedith;13195201]
Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post

Do you not understand that changing the surface content of an argument to illustrate the absurdity of the underlying principle of the argument is not a strawman?
I understand but that is not what she did.

A racist heckler who actively works for his face to be rearranged is in no way comparable to an innocent woman getting beaten or raped by a man who likes to beat and rape women. Therefore: A strawman.
RedStapler is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2020, 04:08 PM   #355
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 12,450
Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
Anything else besides useless strawmen? And cut down this "holier than thou" attitude, it's tiring.
Your argument is no different. It's not "holier than thou", but I will admit to "more rational than thou".
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2020, 04:08 PM   #356
RedStapler
Muse
 
RedStapler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Posts: 761
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
That's a bad assumption. Especially given that you've implied that several people, including myself and lionking, if memory serves, are racists. Not because anything we've said is racist, but because we disagree with your stance that it's moral and acceptable to punch people.
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.

Last edited by zooterkin; 19th August 2020 at 11:51 PM.
RedStapler is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2020, 04:10 PM   #357
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 12,450
Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
To abuse your analogy, whose advice should we solicit if we wish to address the problem of graffiti as a whole?
Honestly, I don't know. But I'm pretty sure that asking the people who don't think it's a problem in the first place isn't going to get you a satisfactory answer. I mean, even if I don't know who does have the answers to the problems caused by drug smuggling, I'm fairly certain that the Cartels aren't going to provide a useful answer.
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2020, 04:10 PM   #358
RedStapler
Muse
 
RedStapler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Posts: 761
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Your argument is no different. It's not "holier than thou", but I will admit to "more rational than thou".
What is rational in hysterically defending racists?
RedStapler is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2020, 04:11 PM   #359
RedStapler
Muse
 
RedStapler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Posts: 761
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Honestly, I don't know. But I'm pretty sure that asking the people who don't think it's a problem in the first place isn't going to get you a satisfactory answer. I mean, even if I don't know who does have the answers to the problems caused by drug smuggling, I'm fairly certain that the Cartels aren't going to provide a useful answer.
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.

Last edited by zooterkin; 19th August 2020 at 11:52 PM.
RedStapler is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2020, 04:14 PM   #360
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 15,876
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I don't know about the UK, but I believe that in the US the state won't pursue simple assault charges if the victim doesn't press charges. Not because the assailant is somehow in the right, but because it's just not worth the effort.

And I would say that Mr. Steele is aware that he was being an *******.

That still doesn't make the assailant's actions legal or acceptable, let alone right.


It's not so much that it's just not worth the effort, but that in a reasonable proportion of assault allegations, the alleged victim is also the only witness (or the only witness that law enforcement can even find). So if the alleged victim is unwilling to cooperate with the prosecution before making any sworn statements, it instantly becomes near-impossible for the State to prove guilt. Even if there are physical injuries on the alleged victim, all the defence has to say is "(alleged victim) got those cuts from falling against furniture" and so on - the alleged victim will not be there to refute. On top of that a great proportion of assault-style allegations are difficult to prove even with the cooperation of the alleged victim and with physical injuries - in a "(s)he said/s(he) said" battle, it's often difficult to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the alleged perpetrator assaulted the alleged victim, causing the injuries in the process.

But......... in the case under discussion in this thread, things are extremely different. In this case, police and the Crown have almost gold-standard evidence of proof BARD. By way of the video of the incident. It's effectively impossible for the puncher to defend himself in court, provided that a) law enforcement can identify and catch him, and b) he can be shown conclusively to be the man in the video who threw the punch. As I said before, those are important (and potentially game-changing) provisos here.
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:48 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.