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Old 8th September 2020, 06:25 AM   #81
shuttlt
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
To you and I maybe, it's difficult to understand why one would not want to inform oneself about politics in order to be able to make better decisions at the ballot box. But I do think it's mistaken (and perhaps even patronising) to assume that those who are not in the same position as us have either taken the conscious decision not to become informed, or are intrinsically stupid.
Is there a country on Earth where the majority of voters are "well informed"? I'm also not sure what constitutes being well informed. The investment in time that is required to be well informed in the sense of having reached an independent judgement on the facts rather than just having absorbed one's own side's list of talking points is considerable. Very few people that I know, if anybody, is informed in that way.
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Old 8th September 2020, 07:48 AM   #82
LondonJohn
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Is there a country on Earth where the majority of voters are "well informed"? I'm also not sure what constitutes being well informed. The investment in time that is required to be well informed in the sense of having reached an independent judgement on the facts rather than just having absorbed one's own side's list of talking points is considerable. Very few people that I know, if anybody, is informed in that way.

Oh I entirely agree with you (and it's one further reason why I think it's unfair to consider semi-informed or uniformed voters as either "wilfully ignorant" or "fools").

But that's not the point I'm trying to make. The point I'm trying to make is that it's unrealistic for people who are well-informed to suppose that the electorate as a whole will make voting choices as similarly well-informed people.

For example (and to take this into hypothetical territory to avoid getting into specific real-world political debate):

Suppose a well-informed voter in Crapland says: "President Labium has a dreadful record in health policy - she voted twice in 2018 against parliamentary amendments which would have ensured that every hospital had at least 30 incubation chambers for premature children. Voters are bound to bear that in mind in the forthcoming election".

I'm arguing that voters across Crapland actually are probably as likely to decide whether or not to vote for President Labium based upon either 1) existing party preferences/loyalties, or 2) how impressive President Labium looked when she opened the nationally-televised Pan-Dorkorean games which were held in Crapland this year....
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Old 8th September 2020, 07:57 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Is there a country on Earth where the majority of voters are "well informed"?

In my experience, Cubans are better educated and tend to be better informed about conditions in their own country as well as in the rest of the world than people in other countries I'm familiar with.

And I think you exaggerate the "investment in time that is required to be well informed" etc.
You obviously can't have detailed knowledge about what goes on in every single country or government office, but it's not difficult to find out if for some reason it becomes relevant for you to know.

That people tend to prefer not to know or prefer 'alternative facts' to actual knowledge is an entirely different question. And the "investment in time that is required to become" properly misinformed is even more comprehensive. Cognitive dissonance requires a lot of time and effort, and you will often need to attend rallies to have like-minded people confirm your faith. You don't need that with actual knowledge. Facts are in most ways much easier to acquire than alternative lies because the facts usually make sense. The lies don't.


ETA: Cubans tend to be quite well-informed about white supremacists, too.
Trump's response to Charlottesville events denounced (Granma.cu, Aug. 22, 2017)

Quote:
Referring to Floyd's murder, Pedroso stated that this was not an isolated case, but a consistent saga of human rights violations based on skin color and ethnicity, underpinned by centuries of structural racism, profound economic inequality, which perpetuate that country's political, social and legal system, founded on slavery, elite privilege and dispossession of the majority.
The reality," the Cuban diplomat said, "is that racism and police violence against people of African descent and minorities are not exceptions or errors of that system. They are the system!
Racism and police violence are not the fault of the system. They are the system! (Granma.cu, June 18, 2020)
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 8th September 2020, 08:05 AM   #84
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Why did this thread devolve into whether Trump voters are racist?

Back on topic, what better vetting processes and employment wording should be used to keep out these folks from positions in both the police and the military? I'll spend a dollar extra to make sure 50 cents wasn't spent giving these people training. And if they are found out on the job, they need removal to be quick and easy.

Wonder what the largest problems are for law enforcement cracking down on these groups. The splinter cell aspects comes to mind, where each group is just ideologically similar but completely autonomous to do as they please.
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Old 8th September 2020, 08:21 AM   #85
dann
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
Why did this thread devolve into whether Trump voters are racist?

Could it be because white supremacists tend to be Trump voters?

Quote:
Wonder what the largest problems are for law enforcement cracking down on these groups.

Other countries seem to be able to do it: Germany Disbands Elite Military Unit Following Reports Of Right Wing Extremism (NPR, July 1, 2020)
But that doesn't explain why groups like this appear in the armies and law enforcement units in the first place.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 8th September 2020 at 08:26 AM.
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Old 8th September 2020, 08:30 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Nope, rioting and looting are not terrorist acts, they are rioting and looting.

Terrorist acts are planned by organisations. They involve explosives or firearms and are aimed at indiscriminate random killing of as many people as possible.

BLM and Antifa are not organisations, they are civil rights movements, and like any movement, they have radical elements that the majority of the movement's followers do want among them.

In addition, a good deal of the rioting, looting and violence that has taken place at BLM protests have been anti-BLM "fifth columnists" infiltrating their ranks and stirring up trouble in order to give the movement a bad name, actions that have suckered people like you into believing BLM is all about violence.
Furthermore, if "rioting and looting" are to be considered "terrorism", what are we to make of the various police departments that teargas entire blocks based on one dude throwing a water bottle or starting a fire - or them shooting at traffic, photographers, slashing car tires far from any actual people, etc. - actions that have been widely reported for...well, decades, really, but particularly when people who aren't straight and white insist on being left in peace?

(Don't get me wrong, I'm perfectly happy to regard these attacks as acts of terrorism, by the state against it's own citizens. But it's a bit odd to say "Oh, no, it's fine for the state to inflict violence on everyone in the area, even if they're just stuck in traffic waiting for a march to pass by.")
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Old 8th September 2020, 08:49 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Furthermore, if "rioting and looting" are to be considered "terrorism", what are we to make of the various police departments that teargas entire blocks based on one dude throwing a water bottle or starting a fire - or them shooting at traffic, photographers, slashing car tires far from any actual people, etc. - actions that have been widely reported for...well, decades, really, but particularly when people who aren't straight and white insist on being left in peace?

(Don't get me wrong, I'm perfectly happy to regard these attacks as acts of terrorism, by the state against it's own citizens. But it's a bit odd to say "Oh, no, it's fine for the state to inflict violence on everyone in the area, even if they're just stuck in traffic waiting for a march to pass by.")
Antifa is not a civil rights movement, they're vigilantes on par with the Boogaloos.
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Old 8th September 2020, 08:52 AM   #88
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If you repeat it often enough, you may actually start to believe it.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 8th September 2020, 01:23 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Is there a country on Earth where the majority of voters are "well informed"?
Switzerland, New Zealand & Australia

In New Zealand, voter turnout is high. In the last 40 years it has averaged about 89% (highest 1985 - 94%, lowest 2011 74%)

That speaks to an informed populace that trusts the process and cares enough about governance to get out and vote. We don't have voter suppression, we have the opposite, a commission that strives to make sure every eligible voter is registered. We don't have gerrymandering because the electoral boundaries are set by an independent commission that is not responsible to the NZ Government.
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Last edited by smartcooky; 8th September 2020 at 01:33 PM.
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Old 8th September 2020, 02:05 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Antifa is not a civil rights movement, they're vigilantes on par with the Boogaloos.
Focus, child.

If destroying property is "terrorism", then are police committing acts of terror when they destroy nearby property of people who are simply driving nearby or taking pictures from their own second-floor windows, or not?
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Old 8th September 2020, 05:10 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Switzerland, New Zealand & Australia

In New Zealand, voter turnout is high. In the last 40 years it has averaged about 89% (highest 1985 - 94%, lowest 2011 74%)

That speaks to an informed populace that trusts the process and cares enough about governance to get out and vote. We don't have voter suppression, we have the opposite, a commission that strives to make sure every eligible voter is registered. We don't have gerrymandering because the electoral boundaries are set by an independent commission that is not responsible to the NZ Government.

But it's not purely an issue of voter turnout percentages. It's about whether those voters are making well-informed choices when they put their mark on the ballot paper.

(However, I would suggest that there might be some sort of causal link between a) how well-informed the voter population is in a given country in general terms, and b) voter turnout percentages in that country)
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Old 8th September 2020, 09:02 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
But it's not purely an issue of voter turnout percentages. It's about whether those voters are making well-informed choices when they put their mark on the ballot paper.
I disagree, but I think the second part of your post is true

Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
(However, I would suggest that there might be some sort of causal link between a) how well-informed the voter population is in a given country in general terms, and b) voter turnout percentages in that country)
High voter turnout is an indication of a populace who are engaged in the electoral process, and who trust the process. They have more incentive to keep themselves informed, so they mostly do.

One of the reasons why the USA has such a poor turnout is that a large percentage of its people distrust politicians and they don't trust the electoral process.... and who could blame them - a Senate that is not fairly representative of the people, partisan state governments doing their level best to fix the process in their own favor by using corrupt methods such as gerrymandering to get more seats with a minority vote, deliberately reducing the number of polling stations in opposition leaning areas, or placing them such that they are difficult to get to, culling voters from the rolls based in ethnicity.

The first thing USA need to do to fix its broken electoral system is to have election day on a Saturday to maximize the number of people able to physically vote.

The second thing it needs to do is either make the electoral college such that EVERY state allocates the EC votes proportionally, or ditch the electoral college altogether and elect the president directly by popular vote.

White supremacists would object to all that, because they would lose any power they might have had.
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Last edited by smartcooky; 8th September 2020 at 09:03 PM.
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Old 8th September 2020, 10:16 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
But it's not purely an issue of voter turnout percentages. It's about whether those voters are making well-informed choices when they put their mark on the ballot paper.

(However, I would suggest that there might be some sort of causal link between a) how well-informed the voter population is in a given country in general terms, and b) voter turnout percentages in that country)
A big part of the problem is that you have a significant portion of the population who live in an information bubble of their choosing. Where all the news they get whether from Fox News, or Breitbart, or OAN only serves to indoctrinate them further in their ideology instead of getting news from a variety of sources to be more accurate. And anything that doesn't conform to their worldview they just dismiss as "Fake News'.

These people consider themselves well informed, but they just repeat whatever the talking heads are shilling to them.
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Old 9th September 2020, 12:19 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
A big part of the problem is that you have a significant portion of the population who live in an information bubble of their choosing. Where all the news they get whether from Fox News, or Breitbart, or OAN only serves to indoctrinate them further in their ideology instead of getting news from a variety of sources to be more accurate. And anything that doesn't conform to their worldview they just dismiss as "Fake News'.

These people consider themselves well informed, but they just repeat whatever the talking heads are shilling to them.
And let's not forget all those top notch, political pundits sharing memes on Facebook that are considered by many as insightful.
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Old 9th September 2020, 03:39 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
These people consider themselves well informed, but they just repeat whatever the talking heads are shilling to them.

You are making it sound much too easy now as if it requires no willpower at all to seek out these specific channels and 'talking heads'. These are the opinions that they require to hear, they look them up and they repeat them because they agree with them even when they know they aren't true.

The cognitive dissonance of many of those channels is considerable, as is the cognitive dissonance of listening to and agreeing with Donald Trump. They believe in a guy who said that the virus would go away in April, and here we are in September and it is raging worse than in March.

It's not that they simply forgot what he said back then, it's that they want to believe in the whole paradigm of the cult, which requires that they accept all the new alternative 'facts' in support of this paradigm even when they turn out to be conspicuously false tomorrow. Tomorrow they'll turn to the same channels and pundits to hear the new alternative 'facts'.
What you are seeing is not what is happening.

It takes more than just repeating what Trump says to be a member of this cult. It also takes being in denial about all his obvious lies. That is not something Fox can do for you. You have to be very actively involved in the process.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 9th September 2020, 04:27 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
A big part of the problem is that you have a significant portion of the population who live in an information bubble of their choosing. Where all the news they get whether from Fox News, or Breitbart, or OAN only serves to indoctrinate them further in their ideology instead of getting news from a variety of sources to be more accurate. And anything that doesn't conform to their worldview they just dismiss as "Fake News'.

These people consider themselves well informed, but they just repeat whatever the talking heads are shilling to them.
Or Cspan, NPR and the equal/opposite info bubble. Both sides do it.
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Old 9th September 2020, 05:24 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Or Cspan, NPR and the equal/opposite info bubble. Both sides do it.
yes, but on the Right, there are way fewer outlets than on the left.
That alone suggests less uniformity.
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Old 9th September 2020, 01:26 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Or Cspan, NPR and the equal/opposite info bubble. Both sides do it.

Except that on NPR, CNN, MSNBC etc, you also find credit given to the Trump admin for the good things that they do (few as they are)

You NEVER find criticism of Trump on Breitbart, or OAN even for the most egregious things they have done. You find justification instead, for family separations, for using violence against peaceful protestors, for firing people who tell the truth under oath about Trump.

Until recently, you never saw criticism of Trump on Faux News either, but that might be beginning to change... ever so slowly, and Trump is not happy about that; he goes on twitter rants about them when they don't fawn all over him.
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Old 9th September 2020, 11:54 PM   #99
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Whistleblower accuses Trump appointees of downplaying Russian interference and White supremacist threat (CNN, Sep. 10, 2020)
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 10th September 2020, 03:26 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Not a shock, as DOTUS has done both publicly as well.
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Old 10th September 2020, 04:26 AM   #101
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In case it wasn't obvious:

Quote:
Over the past ten years (2010-2019), right-wing extremists have been responsible for 76% of extremist-related murders in the U.S. White supremacists specifically have accounting for 60%
https://www.adl.org/murder-and-extremism-2019
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Old 10th September 2020, 05:34 AM   #102
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Quote:
A man who was arrested this week in connection with starting one of the massive wildfires in California has a history of promoting alt-right conspiracy theories.
https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brief...has-history-of

BLM rioters smash windows. Right wingers mass murder and start multi-state wildfires. There is no parity.
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