ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 14th September 2020, 03:24 PM   #41
kookbreaker
Evil Fokker
 
kookbreaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 12,667
Incels tend to waver on their numbers. When they want to feel self-pity they consider themselves a minority (but superior) to the "normies" they disdain so much.

When they want to puff themselves up more (such as when encountering critics), they start calling anyone going through a dry spell in the sexual world an "incel".
__________________
www.spectrum-scientifics.com <- My store of science toys, instruments and general fun!

Thanks for helping me win Best Toys in Philly Voter in 2011,2012, and 2014! We won' be discussing the disappointment that was 2013.
kookbreaker is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2020, 03:28 PM   #42
pharphis
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 2,162
I agree with Delvo, those most motivated to talk about MGTOW are those who are more extreme/resentful/hateful. Label aside, there are plenty of men out there who opt out of relationships for a variety of reasons. Some because they think the deck is stacked against them, others who simply don't think it's worth their time. But those writing about it? More likely to harbor misogyny or even misanthropy (though I think that's more common among incels).

MGTOW isn't for me, but I can understand the appeal for some people. I can also understand (as silly as it sounds) why some men who are MGTOW chat with other men who are MGTOW because that's what humans do: collect around some commonalities between them for friendship, discussion, whatever.

I think some here will just blanket deny most things MGTOW folk say, including claims about how things are stacked against men in terms of dating but more especially in terms of long-term relationships. I don't really care to argue their case for them (and sometimes it is extreme IMO)
pharphis is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2020, 08:39 PM   #43
Butter!
Rough Around the Edges
 
Butter!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Deep Storage
Posts: 6,835
Originally Posted by Modified View Post
Apart from medical conditions, imprisonment, etc., there is no such thing as "involuntarily celibate", there is only "unreasonably high standards".
I don't think that's true. Not everyone can realistically find a partner at any point, especially in high school.
__________________
Ha ha ha, what a story
Butter! is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2020, 09:11 PM   #44
Modified
Philosopher
 
Modified's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,610
Originally Posted by Butter! View Post
I don't think that's true. Not everyone can realistically find a partner at any point, especially in high school.

In my high school you certainly could.
Modified is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2020, 10:54 PM   #45
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,140
In my high school, most people could, too, but literally everyone? No, I don't think so.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2020, 11:40 PM   #46
Modified
Philosopher
 
Modified's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,610
Originally Posted by dann View Post
In my high school, most people could, too, but literally everyone? No, I don't think so.
I guess if you're psychologically incapable of handling rejection it might be a problem, but most people could get over their rejection issues. Many don't have sufficient motivation to do what they might need to, but that doesn't mean they "couldn't".
Modified is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th September 2020, 01:03 AM   #47
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,140
In many cases, the rejections were probably due to misapplied motivation, which is probably the major reason for the lack of success of most incels nowadays, too.
I have heard stories from (female) colleagues about some of my overeager (male) colleagues.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th September 2020, 02:12 AM   #48
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 17,141
Nevertheless, I'd think it would be obvious that pretty much anything that involves more than one person would depend on everyone involved being interested in it. I mean, even when it comes to football or playing a boardgame, if they don't want to play with you, that's that. When I was in high school, the only other kid interested in Go in school wasn't interested in playing with ME, because he was like 20 ranks above me (I REALLY sucked) and no amount of handicap would make it even remotely challenging for him. So that was that.

I'm still kinda baffled at people thinking that someone else has all the responsibility, nay, DUTY, to give them what they want. Especially when it comes to sex, as is the case for the incels.
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?

Last edited by HansMustermann; 15th September 2020 at 02:23 AM.
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th September 2020, 07:21 AM   #49
Butter!
Rough Around the Edges
 
Butter!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Deep Storage
Posts: 6,835
This is silly. Half the kids in high school won't even go "all the way." You guys are being ridiculous.


It is definitely not true that any lonely, frustrated person can get a partner if they just lower their standards. I've heard people say this, and it kind of skeeves me out. Getting sex to happen is a process. Also, people don't come in "grades" like cuts of beef. "Oh, don't worry, the Grade D will **** you." Says who? Don't insult the Grade D like that. Maybe he/she wants someone to have a connection with. Maybe he/she is too shy to ****.
__________________
Ha ha ha, what a story

Last edited by Butter!; 15th September 2020 at 07:23 AM.
Butter! is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th September 2020, 08:15 AM   #50
Modified
Philosopher
 
Modified's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,610
Originally Posted by Butter! View Post
This is silly. Half the kids in high school won't even go "all the way." You guys are being ridiculous.


It is definitely not true that any lonely, frustrated person can get a partner if they just lower their standards. I've heard people say this, and it kind of skeeves me out. Getting sex to happen is a process. Also, people don't come in "grades" like cuts of beef. "Oh, don't worry, the Grade D will **** you." Says who? Don't insult the Grade D like that. Maybe he/she wants someone to have a connection with. Maybe he/she is too shy to ****.
You only need one. I could tell some stories that would make my point, but I'd rather not.

I can accept though that if you went to a small high school you could be unable to find a partner there. Mine had over 1600 students.
Modified is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th September 2020, 08:44 AM   #51
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 12,464
So, stepping back and thinking about the big picture here, I don't support this classification of "incels" as a terror threat. I totally understand that some incels can act as terrorists, and engage in violence and murder. But to classify something as a terror threat, I personally think it should be required to be an organization (even if franchised and loosely bound rather than centralized), and that the fundamental tenets of the organization as a whole advocate for violence as a means to meet the objectives of the organization.

I don't think incels meet that standard, which I think is fairly reasonable. Rather, it's a group of self-identified people (which might meet the first hurdle of a loose organization), who share a belief and ideology that women "owe" them sex in some way, and blame women for not getting laid. But it doesn't seem that the organization advocates for violence.

I think there's a lot of danger to casting a group whose ideology is correlated with, but not directly attributable to, violence as a terror threat. That same logic would allow all muslims to be classified as terror threats on the basis of their ideology being correlated with planned and intentional violence. And I think that's a horrible idea.
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th September 2020, 10:18 AM   #52
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 17,141
Well, unless I misread the OP, they are not in fact classifying all incels as a terror threat. They just arrested one guy who was sending death threats to several people, including a bomb threat. I suspect it was the bomb threat that got him arrested by the counter-terrorism guys.
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th September 2020, 04:20 PM   #53
Delvo
Дэлво Δελϝο דֶלְבֹֿ देल्वो
 
Delvo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: North Tonawanda, NY
Posts: 8,815
Even someone who isn't prejudiced against all of them would still have to admit that their gathering places seem to be useful places to watch to find out which ones are the bad apples. It's like trying to identify Islamic terrorists: you don't need to hate all Muslims to admit that mosques can be useful places for an anti-terrorist program to pay attention to.
Delvo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 02:14 AM   #54
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 17,141
Might not be an entirely bad idea, but as I was saying, it seems to me like in this case the thread title is misleading. The berk actually mailed a bomb threat, which is probably why it fell under the jurisdiction of the counter-terrorism guys. His being an incel, probably not so much.
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 11:08 AM   #55
Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 25,775
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
So, stepping back and thinking about the big picture here, I don't support this classification of "incels" as a terror threat. I totally understand that some incels can act as terrorists, and engage in violence and murder. But to classify something as a terror threat, I personally think it should be required to be an organization (even if franchised and loosely bound rather than centralized), and that the fundamental tenets of the organization as a whole advocate for violence as a means to meet the objectives of the organization.

I don't think incels meet that standard, which I think is fairly reasonable.
I think you are mistaken. I think that in their communication spaces they very much do, and openly, advocate for violence as a means to right the "wrongs" their ideology outlines. In many of their forums they openly either advocate or fantasize about revenge-rape, invoke a coming "beta male uprising" or "Incel Rebellion", and also openly lionize individuals like Elliot Rodger and Alek Minassian who have actually committed mass murders motivated by their status as "incels".
__________________
"WHAT KIND OF BIRD?
A PARANORMAL BIRD?"
--- Carlos S., 2002
Checkmite is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 02:15 PM   #56
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 12,464
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I think you are mistaken. I think that in their communication spaces they very much do, and openly, advocate for violence as a means to right the "wrongs" their ideology outlines. In many of their forums they openly either advocate or fantasize about revenge-rape, invoke a coming "beta male uprising" or "Incel Rebellion", and also openly lionize individuals like Elliot Rodger and Alek Minassian who have actually committed mass murders motivated by their status as "incels".
What are your thoughts with respect to the rest of my post?
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Rather, it's a group of self-identified people (which might meet the first hurdle of a loose organization), who share a belief and ideology that women "owe" them sex in some way, and blame women for not getting laid. But it doesn't seem that the organization advocates for violence.

I think there's a lot of danger to casting a group whose ideology is correlated with, but not directly attributable to, violence as a terror threat. That same logic would allow all muslims to be classified as terror threats on the basis of their ideology being correlated with planned and intentional violence. And I think that's a horrible idea.
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2020, 09:06 PM   #57
Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 25,775
The first paragraph:

Quote:
Rather, it's a group of self-identified people (which might meet the first hurdle of a loose organization), who share a belief and ideology that women "owe" them sex in some way, and blame women for not getting laid. But it doesn't seem that the organization advocates for violence.
...again, I believe is mistaken for the reasons that are already mentioned. I believe the incel "community" does commonly allude to and advocate for violence as a "fix" for the problem they contend exists. It is my impression that, for instance, the "Incel Rebellion" often alluded to isn't just a meme among particularly violent incels, but is an important part of the larger "incel" ideology, and it is a highly problematic one.

Many ideologies that as a central component consider the group to be "under attack" by outside forces have as another key component a sort of secularized version of an apocalypse - a "day of reckoning" when they will finally, undeniably be proven "right" and their enemies definitively proven "wrong". It's a common thing and not in and of itself problematic; but it becomes threatening when a particular ideology forecasts its adherents themselves as the agents of that reckoning specifically through violence against The Enemy. And in my opinion, that describes the incel ideology.

Quote:
I think there's a lot of danger to casting a group whose ideology is correlated with, but not directly attributable to, violence as a terror threat. That same logic would allow all muslims to be classified as terror threats on the basis of their ideology being correlated with planned and intentional violence. And I think that's a horrible idea.
I'm not sure that the FBI has begun viewing all incels as prima facie terror threats, and I don't think the article suggests that either. But the analogy is not black and white. Most people would agree that it would be a horrible idea to treat "all Muslims" as an automatic terror threat; however, few people would disagree with treating, say, all of ISIL as a terror threat.
__________________
"WHAT KIND OF BIRD?
A PARANORMAL BIRD?"
--- Carlos S., 2002
Checkmite is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th September 2020, 12:34 AM   #58
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 17,141
Well, as long as it's mostly a fantasy, you realistically don't have the resources to keep tabs on everyone who has some form of revenge or revolution fantasy. I mean, at that point you'd also have to track all the college kids who go through some Marxist phase or such.

But if enough of them start sending bomb threats and whatnot, I'm sure they can get themselves taken more seriously by the FBI.
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th September 2020, 02:45 AM   #59
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,140
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I'm not sure that the FBI has begun viewing all incels as prima facie terror threats, and I don't think the article suggests that either.

But as soon as the FBI succeeds in honey trapping one of them, he is no longer an incel ...
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:20 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.