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Tags transgender incidents , transgender issues , transgender rights

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Old 16th September 2020, 08:02 AM   #121
d4m10n
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Yes, and they aren't shy about white knighting for the entire female gender...
Surely you mean female sex?

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
...despite indications that their positions are not widely held by those they purport to speak for.
Which survey data are you looking at? I linked to one upthread, but it doesn't support your contention here.
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Old 16th September 2020, 08:02 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I concede it would end sex segregation, which could be replaced by gender segregation. This would satisfy the rationale for the segregation to begin with. My point is that, for all practical purposes, gender segregation that is trans-inclusive is a drop-in replacement that satisfies all the needs of current sex-segregation, and has the added benefit of protecting the civil rights of a vulnerable minority group.
It's not a drop-in replacement, though. The problem of sex identification has been largely solved. The problem of gender identification has not. And gender identification does not address the concerns of women who want safe spaces that exclude men because of their sex. Your solution simply consists of wishing the problem away, and calling anyone who doesn't agree a bigot.
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Old 16th September 2020, 08:05 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It sounds like your position is that transwomen are men, but should be treated as women where practical to do so. And the rest of the debate is about what we can agree is practical.
It doesn't sound like that to me . it sounds like what he is saying is that the whole issue of what transwomen 'are' is neither here nor there if the problems can be solved by treating transwomen as if they are women. Certainly the example of sex-segregation that was given can be addressed by allowing trans people to use the housing of their choosing regardless of what you personally think they are or are not.
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Old 16th September 2020, 08:10 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I'm sorry you misinterpret me so badly. Perhaps it's my fault you came to such a poor conclusion.
Indeed, As you say, you've been sloppy with semantics. But I think I interpret your position better than you do.

You say, "transwomen are women", but you don't mean they're literally identical to ciswomen in every way. And you say transwomen should be treated as women in every practical way, but not in impractical ways (such as giving them ob-gyn exams or forgoing prostate exams, presumably). This seems to stick pretty closely to the biological basis: Transwomen aren't (literally) women, but we should accommodate their self-identity where practical. We should not adopt the impracticality of actually believing they're literally women.

I think the biggest difference is that you would like to adopt the language of pretense and impracticality, even though it would be a strawman to accuse you of believing that language to be literally true.
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Old 16th September 2020, 08:10 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The decision narrowly applies to employment. There is no wider recognition that transgender identity is a protected class federally. It remains lawful in many states to discriminate against trans people in housing and other non-employment parts of society.

Several states have passed explicitly anti-trans laws requiring them to use bathrooms consistent with their biological sex, regardless of their transitioned gender identity.

Trans people are routinely the targets of hate crimes and only some states classify them as such.

Only some states have included gender identity as a protected class in their civil rights statutes.

It remains legal federally and in many states for parents to compel their children to attend conversion therapy, which is widely regarded as little more than psychological torture.

Trans people are largely considered "mentally unfit" for military service, a reversal of previous policy.

The few advances that trans people have made over the last few years are perceived to be in great danger of being eliminated by a new conservative SCOTUS, which is probably why anti-trans legal advocacy groups like the ADF deem it a good time to bring such litigation.
Pretty good run down. I know i'm glad I transitioned in Nevada, where I had protections in case my landlord would try to kick me out (a very real concern of ours.)

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Despite the strawmanning, this is what is meant by "Trans women are women". It's not about denying biological reality, it's a statement about practical realities. Trans women are women in the sense that they should be treated as women for all practical purposes. The difference between a trans woman and a cis man is much larger than the difference between a trans woman and a cis woman.

From the lens of social policy, gender identity is much more significant category than a strictly clinical view of sex. Trans acceptance fits fine into any rationale to divide the genders. It makes more sense to put a trans man, vagina and all, into a men's dorm rather than to make a bearded dude go live in a women's dorm.

inb4 idiotic claims about transwomen demanding hysterectomies or whatever nonsense is sure to follow.
Yep, there are differences between cis and trans women, but we should both be treated as women. I've never said anything like "I am like a cis woman in every way possible! Even though I have XY chromosomes and lack a uterus and ovaries!", I'm saying "I have enough in common with cis women that I should be considered the same, and my genetics and lack of reproductive capacity shouldn't be a factor."

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Ok. Civil rights protections for trans people might mean the end of sex segregated dorms as you define it, but not mean the end of gender segregated dorms, which would be nearly identical to the previous practice except accommodating trans people. Women's shelters, dorms, and other spaces would remain essentially the same.
Sex is ultimately irrelevant in this discussion, but they keep trying to bring it up in order to muddle things. It's essentially genetic determinism, which is a concept that has some... unfortunate consequences throughout history. This is all about gender, which is much more complex of an issue.

And I have never had any desire to get rid of single-sex areas. As a woman I have come to realize just how important those spaces are to us, they provide a measure of safety and security when we feel we need it. It is just another strawman.

And imo, I would just ignore the people trying to call you a transphobe, they are just projecting their own ignorance and bigotry onto you. They've tried to do this to others like LondonJohn with no success. "Trans women are women." never meant there are no differences. Just that we are treated no differently unless absolutely necessary.

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Old 16th September 2020, 08:16 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
inb4 idiotic claims about transwomen demanding hysterectomies or whatever nonsense is sure to follow.
Like the transman who showed up at the hospital with pregnancy complications, and had an unnecessarily negative healthcare outcome because he identified himself to the hospital as a man, and was triaged as such?

Idiotic claims and nonsense like that?
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Old 16th September 2020, 08:22 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Where are you getting your reliability data?
There is no reliability data as there is no reliability.

"Feeling sexually excited" or "Believing the words you say" are subjective experiences and cannot have reliable objective measurements (at least not until the brain can be probed in extreme detail).

There may be correlations between the measurement and what people admit to. Someone who signed up for a study on sexual arousal and who has told the researchers what excites them beforehand may admit they were excited by the stimulus designed to excite them and that may correlate with physical correlates of excitement that the test subjects were allowed to have. Give them an incentive to cheat however -- an accusation of paedophilia for example -- and all that "reliability" flies out of the window.
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Old 16th September 2020, 08:23 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You say, "transwomen are women", but you don't mean they're literally identical to ciswomen in every way.
Again, these two statements are not equivalent. "transwomen are women" is asserted more fully as "the set of women has two subsets, the set of transwomen and the set of ciswomen" so even under "transwomen are women" it is the case that it is false that "transwomen are identical to ciswomen in every way" - otherwise they wouldn't be two distinct subsets of the set of women. The strawman is Turkey's, when challenged on the claim "transwomen are women" he substitutes the much stronger claim "transwomen are identical to ciswomen in every way" and then - correctly though irrelevantly - denies having made that claim and crying strawman.
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Old 16th September 2020, 08:31 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
Pretty good run down. I know i'm glad I transitioned in Nevada, where I had protections in case my landlord would try to kick me out (a very real concern of ours.)



Yep, there are differences between cis and trans women, but we should both be treated as women. I've never said anything like "I am like a cis woman in every way possible! Even though I have XY chromosomes and lack a uterus and ovaries!", I'm saying "I have enough in common with cis women that I should be considered the same, and my genetics and lack of reproductive capacity shouldn't be a factor."



Sex is ultimately irrelevant in this discussion, but they keep trying to bring it up in order to muddle things. It's essentially genetic determinism, which is a concept that has some... unfortunate consequences throughout history. This is all about gender, which is much more complex of an issue.

And I have never had any desire to get rid of single-sex areas. As a woman I have come to realize just how important those spaces are to us, they provide a measure of safety and security when we feel we need it. It is just another strawman.

And imo, I would just ignore the people trying to call you a transphobe, they are just projecting their own ignorance and bigotry onto you. They've tried to do this to others like LondonJohn with no success. "Trans women are women." never meant there are no differences. Just that we are treated no differently unless absolutely necessary.
what do you have in common with women that all humans don’t that doesn’t revolve to a sex stereotype?

“twam doesn’t mean what it says” is just gaslighting. also, the claim you don’t want to be treated differently from real women is misleading af, you want to oblige people to treat you that way and you want to use the power of the state to do so.
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Old 16th September 2020, 08:32 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
There is no reliability data as there is no reliability.

"Feeling sexually excited" or "Believing the words you say" are subjective experiences and cannot have reliable objective measurements (at least not until the brain can be probed in extreme detail).

There may be correlations between the measurement and what people admit to. Someone who signed up for a study on sexual arousal and who has told the researchers what excites them beforehand may admit they were excited by the stimulus designed to excite them and that may correlate with physical correlates of excitement that the test subjects were allowed to have. Give them an incentive to cheat however -- an accusation of paedophilia for example -- and all that "reliability" flies out of the window.
Yeah, measuring sexual arousal based on erections is very flawed. I can say having been a man in the past, we tend to get erections at the slightest things and sometimes completely randomly. It really does have a mind of it's own sometimes. And there have also been plenty of times I was sexually excited without a measurable physical reaction.

Not having a male sex drive anymore, I can see just how wildly fluctuating and intense it can be in comparison. It was more of a burden than anything. I don't miss it.
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Old 16th September 2020, 08:36 AM   #131
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so we know that transition doesn’t help ppl with gender incongruence, and actually harms them. we also know gender is a ******** construct. So my question is why is trans considered a valid identity category like woman? humans deserve to be treated with dignity and be free from oppression, period. That I have to say this obvious thing pisses me off. But the best evidence points to trans being a harmful thing — in the way it’s treated and in the incidence of a bunch of mental health issues. so what’s the point of it?
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Old 16th September 2020, 08:42 AM   #132
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Boudicca let me just speak plainly to you - I don’t hate you. my posts are hostile yes, this topic gets me heated up. but trust love, I don’t hate you or want you dead or harmed or whatever composite golem image of a ‘terf” You might have. just felt like I needed say that
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Old 16th September 2020, 08:46 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Surely you mean female sex?

Which survey data are you looking at? I linked to one upthread, but it doesn't support your contention here.
Trans inclusion in athletics is probably going to remain a sticking point for many people who might otherwise be trans-accepting. I suspect that trans rights will only come to America if forced by the courts, just like gay marriage. There are lots of reactionary bigots in this country, and they are very well represented in the halls of power.

I was referencing more to the claims that trans inclusions in women's only spaces, like shelters and locker rooms, was perceived as a threat by cis women. In the countries where this is happening, like Canada or the UK, women are more likely than men to support such policies.

In canada, this poll shows that a large majority of Canadians support the trans anti-discrimination laws, and women are more likely than men to be trans allies:

http://angusreid.org/transgender-issues/

Likewise, a UK poll shows that women are more likely than men to support trans rights.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics...sgender-rights

The people white knighting on these issues in the name of women are literally in opposition to the majority view of these women they claim to represent.
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Old 16th September 2020, 08:48 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by MisAndreG View Post
Boudicca let me just speak plainly to you - I don’t hate you. my posts are hostile yes, this topic gets me heated up. but trust love, I don’t hate you or want you dead or harmed or whatever composite golem image of a ‘terf” You might have. just felt like I needed say that
That's cute, intentions don't amount to ****.

Trans people will continue to suffer unless the laws change. If you oppose those laws, you accept those consequences.

Pat yourself on the back on not being a TERF though.

Since we're all speaking plainly and out of love <3
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Old 16th September 2020, 08:49 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by MisAndreG View Post
so we know that transition doesn’t help ppl with gender incongruence, and actually harms them. we also know gender is a ******** construct. So my question is why is trans considered a valid identity category like woman? humans deserve to be treated with dignity and be free from oppression, period. That I have to say this obvious thing pisses me off. But the best evidence points to trans being a harmful thing — in the way it’s treated and in the incidence of a bunch of mental health issues. so what’s the point of it?
You, along with your allies here, know NOTHING about us and you continue to show it.

I tried to deal with my dysphoria through therapy and medication to help my depression and anxiety and only led to more and more alcoholism, until it got to the point where I knew I would die if I continued on and so I decided to transition.

Nearly four sober years later and I am far happier than I have ever been and everyone notices it. It's not like I don't still deal with depression and anxiety, but my dysphoria was only part of that (a big part but still), and transitioning relieved a lot of my hatred and disgust with myself to the point where I can have a normal life and not want to kill myself.

Transitioning works, it is as simple as that. And I support it for anybody who feels it is what they need to do to feel whole.
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Old 16th September 2020, 08:51 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by MisAndreG View Post
Boudicca let me just speak plainly to you - I don’t hate you. my posts are hostile yes, this topic gets me heated up. but trust love, I don’t hate you or want you dead or harmed or whatever composite golem image of a ‘terf” You might have. just felt like I needed say that
I don't care what you or anybody else here thinks of me. You people can treat me with hostility all you want to, I've gotten used to it by now.

I ultimately don't give a crap about your opinions on us, as long as we have the law on our side to protect us from people like you.
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Old 16th September 2020, 08:55 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
I don't care what you or anybody else here thinks of me.
Your entire existence in this thread is founded on arguing that is vitally important what other people think of you.

"I don't care what you think of the fact that it's super important you think I'm a woman" doesn't make any kind of sense. How in the Blue Blazes is "You not agreeing my gender identity is literally a hate crime that makes you a bigot" not caring what we think of you?

Do you care what we think or not?
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Old 16th September 2020, 08:56 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
You, along with your allies here, know NOTHING about us and you continue to show it.

I tried to deal with my dysphoria through therapy and medication to help my depression and anxiety and only led to more and more alcoholism, until it got to the point where I knew I would die if I continued on and so I decided to transition.

Nearly four sober years later and I am far happier than I have ever been and everyone notices it. It's not like I don't still deal with depression and anxiety, but my dysphoria was only part of that (a big part but still), and transitioning relieved a lot of my hatred and disgust with myself to the point where I can have a normal life and not want to kill myself.

Transitioning works, it is as simple as that. And I support it for anybody who feels it is what they need to do to feel whole.
But the best studies found there is no mental health benefit from cross sex hormones or gender affirming surgeries. how am I supposed to resolve your claims with the best evidence?
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Old 16th September 2020, 08:58 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Indeed, As you say, you've been sloppy with semantics. But I think I interpret your position better than you do.

You say, "transwomen are women", but you don't mean they're literally identical to ciswomen in every way. And you say transwomen should be treated as women in every practical way, but not in impractical ways (such as giving them ob-gyn exams or forgoing prostate exams, presumably). This seems to stick pretty closely to the biological basis: Transwomen aren't (literally) women, but we should accommodate their self-identity where practical. We should not adopt the impracticality of actually believing they're literally women.

I think the biggest difference is that you would like to adopt the language of pretense and impracticality, even though it would be a strawman to accuse you of believing that language to be literally true.
Someone else laid it out neater, but I'll steal it as my own.

Trans and cis women are two distinct subsets of the larger category "women". There are differences between these two subsets, but those differences don't make either not members of the women category.

The differences between cis and trans women are quite small compared to the differences between either subset of women and men.

Trans women are women, but that doesn't mean they are identical to cis women, who are also women.
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Old 16th September 2020, 09:00 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
I don't care what you or anybody else here thinks of me. You people can treat me with hostility all you want to, I've gotten used to it by now.

I ultimately don't give a crap about your opinions on us, as long as we have the law on our side to protect us from people like you.
the whole reason this is an issue is that you want to people to reflect your own self image back at you. you very much do care what people think of you

my goodness what do you think I want done to you ? I’m not some composite golem of your worst nightmares that you need protection from, let alone legal protection
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Old 16th September 2020, 09:02 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Your entire existence in this thread is founded on arguing that is vitally important what other people think of you.

"I don't care what you think of the fact that it's super important you think I'm a woman" doesn't make any kind of sense. How in the Blue Blazes is "You not agreeing my gender identity is literally a hate crime that makes you a bigot" not caring what we think of you?

Do you care what we think or not?
Only when it comes to what you support and vote for. We need the force of law to protect us from intolerant bigots, but I don't support any kind of thought police.

You can think of me as a man all you want to, but we increasingly have laws in place to protect us in case you want to start treating us as men. And I don't care if even a majority did agree with each other that we were men, the law is designed (hypothetically anyway) to ensure that minorities are protected from the bigotry of majorities.
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Old 16th September 2020, 09:03 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The differences between cis and trans women are quite small compared to the differences between either subset of women and men.
What are these differences? Or, alternately, what are the similarities? And does this mean we're back to defining women based on gender roles? Because that's a problem.
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Old 16th September 2020, 09:04 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by MisAndreG View Post
the whole reason this is an issue is that you want to people to reflect your own self image back at you. you very much do care what people think of you

my goodness what do you think I want done to you ? I’m not some composite golem of your worst nightmares that you need protection from, let alone legal protection
I don't know what you want done to me, I can't read your mind.

But i'm done with you.

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Old 16th September 2020, 09:06 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Someone else laid it out neater, but I'll steal it as my own.

Trans and cis women are two distinct subsets of the larger category "women". There are differences between these two subsets, but those differences don't make either not members of the women category.

The differences between cis and trans women are quite small compared to the differences between either subset of women and men.

Trans women are women, but that doesn't mean they are identical to cis women, who are also women.
I've said this multiple times myself in this thread.

They aren't listening to us, and don't want to.
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Old 16th September 2020, 09:09 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
And I have never had any desire to get rid of single-sex areas. As a woman I have come to realize just how important those spaces are to us, they provide a measure of safety and security when we feel we need it.
A measure of safety and security from men, when women feel they need a measure of safety and security from men. Wouldn't it make sense to open up such shelters to anyone - male or female, regardless of gender identification - who feels they need a measure of safety and security from men?

Many men are victimized by other men. Why should they have to claim to be women, in order to gain access to spaces set aside for safety from men?
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Old 16th September 2020, 09:12 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
I don't know what you want done to me, I can't read your mind.

But i'm done with you.
same. Good luck in life
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Old 16th September 2020, 09:17 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Someone else laid it out neater, but I'll steal it as my own.

Trans and cis women are two distinct subsets of the larger category "women". There are differences between these two subsets, but those differences don't make either not members of the women category.

The differences between cis and trans women are quite small compared to the differences between either subset of women and men.

Trans women are women, but that doesn't mean they are identical to cis women, who are also women.
it was said to point out a straw man you made, not for you to make a dumb argument with

Trans women are a subset of men
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Old 16th September 2020, 09:35 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
You need to learn the distinction between personal thoughts, and speech and actions that affect other people.
I have the distinction clear, you're the one waffling on it.

I asked you, very clearly, very kindly, and without ulterior motive if you say a distinction between thoughts and actions. You said no, there was not.

Now you're arguing they aren't.
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Old 16th September 2020, 09:40 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by Tomboy View Post
What are these differences? Or, alternately, what are the similarities? And does this mean we're back to defining women based on gender roles? Because that's a problem.
Not one person has attempted to define women based on gender roles here. The whole point of the argument is to allow people to be and thrive in whatever identity they see fit for themselves.

As I tried to say before.... tread carefully on the women are defined by their biology line because the same narrow minded bigots who want to reject trans people will turn on women just as easily.

The same biology will be blamed for women's lack of representation in management, in STEM, and a whole host of other things.

I don't see what anyone woman or man gains from these exclusionary definitions.... surely better to be inclusive? 'women' and 'men' encompass a broad spectrum of people and experiences, physical and mental traits. I don't see who wins in arguing definitions while real people experience real harm caused by discrimination and bigotry against them
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Old 16th September 2020, 10:30 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
There is no reliability data as there is no reliability.
Have you had a look at the study I linked upthread?

Quote:
These comparisons revealed that both methods yield strong relationships between penile response and self-report of sexual arousal and no consistent advantage was shown for the maximum amplitude or total response method of measuring penile response.
Perhaps you've seen a better study on point?
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Old 16th September 2020, 11:05 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics...sgender-rights

The people white knighting on these issues in the name of women are literally in opposition to the majority view of these women they claim to represent.
I think we should take a closer look at the results of that poll. If I'm reading it correctly, a plurality of British women disagree with the proposition that pre-op MtF individuals ought be allowed to use women's changing rooms and toilets, and an outright majority of British women disagree with the proposition that subjective self-identification should replace a medicalized process for obtaining a gender change certificate.
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Old 16th September 2020, 11:16 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
Is the same true for transgender?
Do other primates also show clear signs of being gender dysphoric?
Other mammals?
Not that I'm aware of. It's not uncommon for other mammals to adopt the gender roles of the opposite sex when there aren't enough of that opposite sex to fulfill those needs, though. I would be extremely hesitant to consider that gender dysphoria though, since it seems to be short-term role filling, rather than a persistent behavioral aspect. Also, it doesn't appear to include any element of "presentation" or "expression"... just sexually dimorphic social roles.
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Old 16th September 2020, 11:18 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
For the sake of encouraging a good faith effort from all sides...

Where I live (in the American Midwest) transgender individuals may be denied the right to compete, excrete, or disrobe with people of the same gender as themselves. This is at least in part b/c these activities were originally segregated by sex rather than gender.
[/quote]

Do cisgendered people have a right to do any of those things? Those are are social conventions, not rights, and they're based on sex differences, not gender differences.
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Old 16th September 2020, 11:37 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I think we should take a closer look at the results of that poll. If I'm reading it correctly, a plurality of British women disagree with the proposition that pre-op MtF individuals ought be allowed to use women's changing rooms and toilets, and an outright majority of British women disagree with the proposition that subjective self-identification should replace a medicalized process for obtaining a gender change certificate.
Reasonable people can disagree on what constitutes sufficient "transition" when it comes to official recognition of gender.

The trans-excursionists that take an absolutist position should not be considered good-faith participants in such a conversation, as clearly the position is rooted in animus of trans people.
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Old 16th September 2020, 11:38 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Isn't the treatment for the distress basically to treat the person of the gender that they say they identify as?
Currently, yes. An interesting observation here is that for all other conditions, the treatment is one undertaken by the patient themselves. For gender dysphoria, the treatment includes everyone who is not the patient also engaging in the treatment.

I'm a lot more willing to provide that support for someone with a diagnosis. I'm a bit less so when the person self-identifies without a diagnosis.

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
I believe that you identify as a woman and I doubt that you would a) appreciate anyone telling you that they don't agree with you b) reduce that identity to the mere presence of genitalia?

I think this reductionism potentially does women in general a disservice because if we reduce 'women' to biology then we open the door for a lot of the efforts made to help women reduce inequalities to be dismantled unless they have a biological basis. Or worse, the invention of spurious biological justifications for inequalities.

I'm sure we agree the experience of being a women is more than the experience of having female genitals and, if we do, then surely that also allows for an experience of being a woman absent female genitals? It may not be the same lived experience as you but that doesn't mean it's invalid. After all I'm sure there are all sorts of women who have all sorts of different lived experiences from you. All that is being asked is that the range of 'lived experiences of being a woman' includes transwomen.
Female identity doesn't reduce to only biology, but biology is an inherent part of that identity. The experience of being a female in society is the other part of that identity, which includes social norms and expectations of behavior, presentation, and roles. Most of those social norms are harmful to females in general, but we grow up with them as an unavoidable element of our development.

Yes, females will each have some variance in their experiences, but the general experiences are often very common across thematic concepts and expectations. Just as different females might have different sized feet... but in general female feet are smaller than male feet.

You are asking me to expand my lived experience of being a female to include transwomen. What is their lived experience that should be considered similar to that of females?

What experiences, attributes, and characteristics do ciswomen and transwomen have in common that are not shared by cismen and transmen?
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Old 16th September 2020, 11:39 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Religious institutions are given wide latitude to conduct themselves in ways that would otherwise be considered discriminatory in other contexts. A discussion of religious privilege to violate equal protection laws seems like a derail from the topic thread.

I see no reason why this hyper-specific, very special case is really relevant to whatever point about how great trans people have it in the US is supposed you seem to be making.

Ordinary landlords renting out normal homes can discriminate against trans people in many states across the country. You asked what rights trans people don't have, there's one. I have no interest in quibbling about Catholic University communal dorms or whatever you're on about.
My public university had dormitories with both sexes in them, but housed in different wings of the building. It still does, 25 years later.
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Old 16th September 2020, 11:40 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
My public university had dormitories with both sexes in them, but housed in different wings of the building. It still does, 25 years later.
Sure, as did mine. Like mine, I'm sure your public college was beholden to Title IX and other civil rights law, a burden not shared by private religious colleges.
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Old 16th September 2020, 11:41 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
There is no need to ban single-sex living quarters provided you allow trans people access to the quarters they wish to live in.
How would this work? If a person is male-bodied and identifies as a man, they are only allowed to live in the male quarters. If a person is female-bodied and identifies as a woman, they are only allowed to live in the female quarters. If a person identifies as trans, regardless of their physical sex and genitalia... they're allowed to live wherever they want to?
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Old 16th September 2020, 11:42 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
My reading of damion's post seems to be that he thinks trans protections will end the practice of sex segregated communal dorms, which doesn't really make sense for me.

Trans people would be assigned to the dorms of their gender identity, which can totally remain segregated into men/women as they are now.
Sex and Gender are not synonymous.
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Old 16th September 2020, 11:45 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I don't see how affirming trans gender identity in law would lead to the end of gender segregated dorms. Trans women could live in all women dorms and still exclude men. Likewise for trans men and all men dorms.
Tanswomen who self-id with no medical diagnosis and no hormone treatment and no alterations to their presentation would, by your ideology, be allowed to live in the female dorms, despite being physically male, having intact male genitalia, and presenting as male... based solely on their claim to be a woman.

And just screw any of the females in that dorm who object to having a male in their sex-segregated dorms.

I'd be a lot more willing to accept this approach if were not paired with insistence that self-id with no treatment at all is sufficient for a male to be considered a woman.
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