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Tags transgender incidents , transgender issues , transgender rights

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Old 16th September 2020, 11:47 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
A semantic one, yes. A practical one, not so much.
Hmm. That would imply that a 15 year old male, who is physically, hormonally, and biologically male, would be entitled to share the same locker room and showers in high school as a 15 year old female... on the basis of that person having self-identified as a woman, and with no diagnosis and no medical treatment.

That would obligate all of the females who use that locker room to surrender their privacy to a male.
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Old 16th September 2020, 11:49 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The difference between a trans woman and a cis man is much larger than the difference between a trans woman and a cis woman.
In what way?
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Old 16th September 2020, 11:51 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
There is not, one can feel "sexually excited" with a penile plethismograph showing nothing, and the thing showing huge response without a person feeling sexually excited. It is about as reliable as using a polygraph to see whether you are lying, which is also pseudoscience.
You know there are many other elements of sexual arousal than just whether or not a dude gets an erection, right?
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Old 16th September 2020, 11:55 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Generally speaking, civil right protections are compulsory, except when exceptions are carved out for religious and other such institutions.

If it's not mandatory, it's not a protected civil right.
not sure what you mean by compulsory here. Civil rights are negative rights, not positive rights. They're protections from what other people do to you, not obligations on others to do for you.

Right to not be fired or denied employment on the basis of gender identity - check, I'm on board with that.
Right to not be denied housing or access to public services on the basis of gender identity - check, I'm on board with that.

Right to compel other people to use specific language in reference to you - not so much.
Right to compel other people to recognize your internal sense of self in contradiction to your factual sex - not so much
Right to obligate people of the opposite sex to accept you into their sex-segregated spaces - not so much
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Old 16th September 2020, 12:01 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Yes, and they aren't shy about white knighting for the entire female gender, despite indications that their positions are not widely held by those they purport to speak for.
Once again, I will remind you that you're assuming a view not in evidence.

In generally, ciswomen support transwomen being treated as women - on the assumption that those transwomen are diagnosed with gender dysphoria, undergoing medical and hormonal treatments for that condition, and living and presenting as a woman.

The do NOT, however, support self-id ALONE granting access to male-bodied people to female services and institutions.

I've mentioned this several times, and I've provided poll data supporting this conclusion. You keep ignoring it. and repeating your false narrative here.

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Sucks that bigots are uncomfortable around trans women. That's not a good reason to not protect a vulnerable population.
Yeah, **** those females. Who the **** do they think they are, thinking they should have a voice and have their concerns be taken seriously? They're just a bunch of overreacting hysterical chicks. Those bitches really ought to know their place. Males know better than them, right?

I mean, there's definitely a fantastic reason not to protect vulnerable females, when it's a male who wants their feelings affirmed, right?
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Old 16th September 2020, 12:02 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Motte & Bailey. Make a far-going claim of fact ("transwomen are women") and then, when challenged, retreat into a much weaker moral claim ("transwomen should be treated as women for all practical purposes").
Especially when they somehow think they can bait and switch what constitutes "practical" with nobody noticing.
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Old 16th September 2020, 12:03 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I would rather landlords did not have the option to discriminate against trans renters. Complexities of religious colleges and single sex dorms aside, it's perfectly lawful for bigoted landlords to straight up prohibit trans renters from ordinary rental properties.
The premise of the 80s TV show Bosum Buddies was that the main characters (Tom Hanks Peter Scolari) wanted to live in the Susan B. Anthony Hotel because the rent is cheap. The problem is that the building is female only. So they disguise themselves as women to fool the staff and residents (except for a couple who are in on the plan).

I don't know if such hotels exist, but do you say they should not? How about sex segregated flop hostels or boarding houses?
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Old 16th September 2020, 12:04 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Thrash that strawman. Sure, you can nutpick somebody who claims that transwomen are identical to cis women in every literal way, but it ain't me baby.

Whole lot of nutpicking going on in this thread. Seems that finding jerks on twitter saying stupid things counts as skeptical evidence on these forums.
Nitpick. The word you are looking for is nitpick.

Okay, moving beyond that minor peeve...

You say you don't think they're identical to ciswomen in every literal way... but you DO insist that ciswomen need to treat them as identical to ciswomen in every situation.
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Old 16th September 2020, 12:07 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I concede it would end sex segregation, which could be replaced by gender segregation. This would satisfy the rationale for the segregation to begin with. My point is that, for all practical purposes, gender segregation that is trans-inclusive is a drop-in replacement that satisfies all the needs of current sex-segregation, and has the added benefit of protecting the civil rights of a vulnerable minority group.

Apologies that I've been a bit sloppy with semantics, which I acknowledge is important in such discussions. I'll try to be clearer going forward.
No it doesn't! The needs of sex-segregation have been spelled out repeatedly, you just keep ignoring them and pretending they don't exist!

It's a drop-in solution that affirms the feelings of transgender people at the cost of the rights, privacy, and security of females!
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Old 16th September 2020, 12:08 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
No.

That's because segregation is always problematic. No matter what categories of people you think up -- {black;white}, {hutu;tutsi}, {man;woman} -- or how many categories you think up -- {catholic;protestant;jew} -- there will always be people who don't fall neatly into the any of the categories and will feel confusion over which service they should use, or not have a service available to them. Also, no matter how "equal" you think you make the "separate but equal" service, there will always be people from one or more of the categories who feel they got the worst service, and often they're not wrong.
Hooray! Let's put the large number of male rapists into the female ward of the prisons! What could possibly go wrong!
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Old 16th September 2020, 12:09 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
As best as I can tell it's the following. We live in a society were the two sexes are expected (and socially reinforced) to behave differently. Some people internalize this to the extent that they develop something called a gender identity. In some of those people that gender identity does not map to their sex, so they want society to reinforce the behaviours expected of the other sex. For this reason they change their appearance and behaviours so as to cause people to reinforce the behaviours expected of the other sex.
Which,,, by the way, reinforces stereotypes that are generally viewed as harmful to both men and women.
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Old 16th September 2020, 12:13 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
It doesn't sound like that to me . it sounds like what he is saying is that the whole issue of what transwomen 'are' is neither here nor there if the problems can be solved by treating transwomen as if they are women. Certainly the example of sex-segregation that was given can be addressed by allowing trans people to use the housing of their choosing regardless of what you personally think they are or are not.
The problem is that it's a one-sided solution. It solves the problem of transwomen not feeling affirmed by society in their gender identity... but it does it by reducing the rights, privacy, and security of females.
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Old 16th September 2020, 12:15 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
The problem is that it's a one-sided solution. It solves the problem of transwomen not feeling affirmed by society in their gender identity... but it does it by reducing the rights, privacy, and security of females.
Yes, the most sacred right of all, the right to not be around trans people.
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Old 16th September 2020, 12:15 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Religious universities already have wide latitude to ignore civil rights laws. Adding trans protections would likely do little to change that because private religious schools generally can ignore anti-discrimination law and be as bigoted as they please in these matters.

Nor am I much interested in protecting the right of religious institutions to practice bigotry under the name of orthodoxy. If it were up to me, these places would be found in violation of anti-discrimination laws for all their anti-gay and other bigoted policies, but it's not.
While most of the dorms at the University of Illinois are Coed, There are still a couple that are single sex/gender. I'm not sure exactly what coed means. When I was in school in the 80s, some floors were men, and some women (or similar arrangements). I'm not sure if that is considered coed or if the floors are now mixed. We had communal bathrooms on each floor though. If a girl was on the floor we would check that the restroom was clear and guard the door for them. It seems the trend is suites of rooms sharing a private bathroom.

So should gender are gender or sex segregated dorms OK at public universities?

ETA: Sorry, I see you addressed this in the next post. Still catching up.

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Old 16th September 2020, 12:17 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by TomB View Post
While most of the dorms at the University of Illinois are Coed, There are still a couple that are single sex/gender. I'm not sure exactly what coed means. When I was in school in the 80s, some floors were men, and some women (or similar arrangements). I'm not sure if that is considered coed or if the floors are now mixed. We had communal bathrooms on each floor though. If a girl was on the floor we would check that the restroom was clear and guard the door for them. It seems the trend is suites of rooms sharing a private bathroom.

So should gender are gender or sex segregated dorms OK at public universities?
Beats me. My college was the same way, floors were gender segregated in dorms with communal shower rooms, and mixed on floors were rooms or suites had private bathrooms.

I'm indifferent on the continued practice of gender segregated communal shower dorm floors, so long as this isn't a pretext for trans exclusion.
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Old 16th September 2020, 12:18 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Yes, the most sacred right of all, the right to not be around trans people.
That's a little dishonest. It's the right to not be around men in certain situations, and some people consider transwomen to be men. They would be perfectly happy to be around transmen.
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Old 16th September 2020, 12:18 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
"I have enough in common with cis women that I should be considered the same, and my genetics and lack of reproductive capacity shouldn't be a factor."
What do you have in common with ciswomen?

Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
Sex is ultimately irrelevant in this discussion, but they keep trying to bring it up in order to muddle things.
SEX is a protected class! It is absolutely relevant!

Just because you've repeatedly insisted that the concerns of females are either made up or overreactions, doesn't make them so.

Why exactly should females be obligated and compelled to accept you as the same as them in every way, when you dismiss our voices and deem us unworthy of your concern or consideration? You have demonstrated a complete lack of care or compassion for the problems and challenges that females face. Instead, you simply push them aside and repeat the age-old male claim that females are "overreacting", and it's "not a big deal".

You show zero support for issues and barriers faced by females... while simultaneously demanding that we subordinate our issues so that you can live a happier life.
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Old 16th September 2020, 12:22 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
That's a little dishonest. It's the right to not be around men in certain situations, and some people consider transwomen to be men. They would be perfectly happy to be around transmen.
Would they? Including very masculine, muscular, bearded transmen that are sexually attracted to women? I find this hard to believe.
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Old 16th September 2020, 12:25 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
There is no reliability data as there is no reliability.

"Feeling sexually excited" or "Believing the words you say" are subjective experiences and cannot have reliable objective measurements (at least not until the brain can be probed in extreme detail).
Sexual Arousal is a physical response, not a subjective psychological one. It's actually quite well studied.
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Old 16th September 2020, 12:30 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The difference between a trans woman and a cis man is much larger than the difference between a trans woman and a cis woman.
I don't see how that's physically possible in most cases. Or even socially possible.
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Old 16th September 2020, 12:30 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
Yeah, measuring sexual arousal based on erections is very flawed. I can say having been a man in the past, we tend to get erections at the slightest things and sometimes completely randomly. It really does have a mind of it's own sometimes. And there have also been plenty of times I was sexually excited without a measurable physical reaction.

Not having a male sex drive anymore, I can see just how wildly fluctuating and intense it can be in comparison. It was more of a burden than anything. I don't miss it.
For goodness sake, don't you two know anything about sexual arousal at all? erections in males and vaginal wetness in women are only one sign of sexual arousal among several, and are not always present - especially when there is sexual dysfunction and as people age.

Nocturnal erection cycles (including morning wood), by the way, is a function of vasodilation, not sexual arousal, and is usually not accompanied by the other physical symptoms of arousal.

Physical symptoms of human fight-or-flight responses can also manifest as tumescence in men, and the euphorical rush of dopamine following the adrenaline from that survival response frequently produces sexual arousal.
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Old 16th September 2020, 12:32 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by MisAndreG View Post
Boudicca let me just speak plainly to you - I don’t hate you. my posts are hostile yes, this topic gets me heated up. but trust love, I don’t hate you or want you dead or harmed or whatever composite golem image of a ‘terf” You might have. just felt like I needed say that
I'll add on to this. Boudicca, I think you're a very nice person, and I wish you the happiness and comfort in life. I fully support you presenting and expressing yourself in whatever way makes you the most content.
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Old 16th September 2020, 12:34 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Trans inclusion in athletics is probably going to remain a sticking point for many people who might otherwise be trans-accepting. I suspect that trans rights will only come to America if forced by the courts, just like gay marriage.
I will 100% support civil right protections for transgender people. I will march in public (after the pandemic is over) to secure that protection.

I will not, however, remove equal protections on the basis of sex, nor will I surrender my rights, privacy, and security as a female. Especially not on the basis of self-identification alone.
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Old 16th September 2020, 12:39 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Would they? Including very masculine, muscular, bearded transmen that are sexually attracted to women? I find this hard to believe.
I think that might be the case. I think the assumption is that transmen are less likely to behave "inappropriately".

Appearance is kind of a red herring anyway. Where would you put transwomen that still look like men? Cis-women that look like men? Cis-men that look like women? Transvestites?
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Old 16th September 2020, 12:43 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
I think that might be the case. I think the assumption is that transmen are less likely to behave "inappropriately".

Appearance is kind of a red herring anyway. Where would you put transwomen that still look like men? Cis-women that look like men? Cis-men that look like women? Transvestites?
I'd like to see some evidence of that. These trans bathroom panic-mongers spend a lot of time worrying about trans invaders in the ladies room, but trans-men rarely get a mention.
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Old 16th September 2020, 12:43 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Likewise, a UK poll shows that women are more likely than men to support trans rights.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics...sgender-rights
That's exactly the same poll I provided you earlier in the thread, which you dismissed.

Yes, in general women support transgender people more than men do. But what you keep ignoring is that when the topic comes around to self-identification alone, most women do NOT support it.

There is a lack of support for people to legally change their gender, and there is no substantial agreement for doing so without a medical diagnosis and without having lived as the target gender for a period of time. There is no general support for transwomen to compete in women's sports. And there is no general support for transgender people who have NOT undergone GRS using the changing rooms of their identified gender.
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Old 16th September 2020, 12:45 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
That's exactly the same poll I provided you earlier in the thread, which you dismissed.

Yes, in general women support transgender people more than men do. But what you keep ignoring is that when the topic comes around to self-identification alone, most women do NOT support it.

There is a lack of support for people to legally change their gender, and there is no substantial agreement for doing so without a medical diagnosis and without having lived as the target gender for a period of time. There is no general support for transwomen to compete in women's sports. And there is no general support for transgender people who have NOT undergone GRS using the changing rooms of their identified gender.
not yet. Polling of younger people shows we just have to wait for the bigots to fall in the grave. Very unfortunate for trans people right now, but a better future is on the horizon.
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Old 16th September 2020, 01:02 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
You, along with your allies here, know NOTHING about us and you continue to show it.

I tried to deal with my dysphoria through therapy and medication to help my depression and anxiety and only led to more and more alcoholism, until it got to the point where I knew I would die if I continued on and so I decided to transition.

Nearly four sober years later and I am far happier than I have ever been and everyone notices it. It's not like I don't still deal with depression and anxiety, but my dysphoria was only part of that (a big part but still), and transitioning relieved a lot of my hatred and disgust with myself to the point where I can have a normal life and not want to kill myself.

Transitioning works, it is as simple as that. And I support it for anybody who feels it is what they need to do to feel whole.
Boudicca, I think a nuance you might be missing is that you have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, and you undertook treatment for it for a while before transitioning. I'm very happy that it is working for you, and that you are more comfortable and at ease, and no longer at risk for depression or suicide. I'm happy that you are thriving.

Because it works for you, however, doesn't mean that it's equally as effective for everyone. And nobody is even remotely suggesting that people for whom it is the best option should be denied treatment through transition.

There isn't really any evidence that transition without mental health support is effective for most people. And there is no evidence that transition on the basis of self-identification works at all.
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Old 16th September 2020, 01:02 PM   #189
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Yes. "I don't understand and I won't do the disservice of lying to you and saying I do, but I still support and love you and want to keep a dialog open so we can get to an understanding" is such a horrible philosophy. Can't wait for it die off.

Now just to wait for everyone to always agree about everything and we'll finally be in Utopia.
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Old 16th September 2020, 01:04 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
I ultimately don't give a crap about your opinions on us, as long as we have the law on our side to protect us from people like you.
What protection do you need the law to provide you here? Do you think that MisAndreG is going to physically attack you? Do you think she's going to rouse the internet to insist that you get fired from your job? Do you think she's going to threaten you with bodily harm or suggest that you deserve to be raped?

Exactly what protection do you think you need from females?
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Old 16th September 2020, 01:06 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Someone else laid it out neater, but I'll steal it as my own.

Trans and cis women are two distinct subsets of the larger category "women". There are differences between these two subsets, but those differences don't make either not members of the women category.

The differences between cis and trans women are quite small compared to the differences between either subset of women and men.

Trans women are women, but that doesn't mean they are identical to cis women, who are also women.
And those similarities are... what? In what way are transwomen materially and substantially more like ciswomen than they are like cismen?
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Old 16th September 2020, 01:07 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I'd like to see some evidence of that. These trans bathroom panic-mongers spend a lot of time worrying about trans invaders in the ladies room, but trans-men rarely get a mention.
Maybe transmen rarely get a mention because women don't mind the possibility of transmen in their women spaces? I don't know. There's no statistics on that anywhere.
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Old 16th September 2020, 01:07 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
They aren't listening to us, and don't want to.
Why should we listen to you when you repeatedly dismiss the concerns and challenges faced by females as being not real or as exaggerated?
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Old 16th September 2020, 01:08 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Trans and cis women are two distinct subsets of the larger category "women". There are differences between these two subsets, but those differences don't make either not members of the women category.

The differences between cis and trans women are quite small compared to the differences between either subset of women and men.
I still don't know what properties make one a woman or a man under this definition.
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Old 16th September 2020, 01:08 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
You need to learn the distinction between personal thoughts, and speech and actions that affect other people.
And those distinctions, as it relates to law are... ?
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Old 16th September 2020, 01:14 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Not one person has attempted to define women based on gender roles here. The whole point of the argument is to allow people to be and thrive in whatever identity they see fit for themselves.

As I tried to say before.... tread carefully on the women are defined by their biology line because the same narrow minded bigots who want to reject trans people will turn on women just as easily.

The same biology will be blamed for women's lack of representation in management, in STEM, and a whole host of other things.
You know, I'm a LOT more concerned about the research into "gendered brains" that are used to support trans ideology (despite being immaterial and non-predictive) having that affect than appeals to gender roles and biology that are already a reality for females to deal with.
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Old 16th September 2020, 01:16 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It sounds like your position is that transwomen are men, but should be treated as women where practical to do so. And the rest of the debate is about what we can agree is practical.
Male. In fairness, if you are going to point out Suburban Turkey conflating sex and gender, it probably makes sense to use a set of terms that allows one to distinguish the two.

I realize that not everyone agrees on the terms for sex (male/female) and gender (man/woman) but we can either argue about terminology or agrue about issues. Issues are more interesting.
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Old 16th September 2020, 01:19 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Reasonable people can disagree on what constitutes sufficient "transition" when it comes to official recognition of gender.

The trans-excursionists that take an absolutist position should not be considered good-faith participants in such a conversation, as clearly the position is rooted in animus of trans people.
Uh-huh. Your treatment of people in this thread indicates that your above statement is false.
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Old 16th September 2020, 01:20 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Sure, as did mine. Like mine, I'm sure your public college was beholden to Title IX and other civil rights law, a burden not shared by private religious colleges.
Are you aware that Title IX has sex as a protected characteristic?
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Old 16th September 2020, 01:25 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Yes, the most sacred right of all, the right to not be around trans people.
Like I said, **** those dumb chicks who think they deserve rights. Don't they know they don't count as much as males do? Who the **** cares if their rights get taken away, they don't deserve them anyway, they're just worthless ******* females...
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