The slow collapse of the NHS. - Page 2

novaphile · 13th January 2023, 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by Planigale

The main reason at present is because of a surge in admissions due to a combination of flu and covid. On a background of failure in social care. It is not really the NHS that is failing, it is social care. Many of the patients I look after are elderly, living alone, with dementia. They have deteriorated over the last two years. They get covid or flu not badly, but they take to their beds and get dehydrated or fall and can't get up. They came to hospital, they don't really need the sort of acute care* the NHS is good at delivering, but they need a prolonged period of rehab or a care home. They need a welfare and financial guardian appointed, this can take months, unfortunately they cannot leave hospital until a guardian is appointed who can agree to their going to a care home. So we have wards full of elderly frail patients we cannot just send home because they would just die. This means we have no beds to admit new patients to. So we treat sick patients in corridors whilst frail elderly with no acute medical problem occupy acute beds.

The present crisis is an acute crisis of respiratory infections that will resolve and a chronic crisis that is a social care crisis that won't. The fix needed is social care not the NHS. These elderly frail people should be detected earlier and their admissions with an acute social crisis prevented.

*Also that I am trained to deliver; we need more geriatric doctors and beds, my skills are in critically ill patients.

There are ongoing demographic changes (remember the baby boom?) that have put more pressure on the NHS and funding has not risen sufficiently to keep up.

Rising consumption of alcohol and other behaviour modifying drugs that cause accidents and injuries have an effect.

Other policy decisions, like the closure of public supported accommodation for people with mental health issues, and the closure of public supported aged care accommodation increase pressure on the NHS.

Not to mention, deliberate underfunding of equipment maintenance etc and defunding of training places for new Doctors and Nurses etc.

Pretty much part of the "One side is doing its best to destroy civilisation" that I've mentioned elsewhere.

bluesjnr · 13th January 2023, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle

Problem is current Labour policy (since 1997) is: "We'll do the same as the Tories, but won't laugh so maniacally while doing it."

A bright shining light on why it is what it is and what it will be.

novaphile · 13th January 2023, 11:29 PM

Margaret Thatcher has been quoted as claiming that "New Labour" (i.e. right-wing Labour) was her greatest achievement while in office.

Nessie · 14th January 2023, 03:46 AM

There are many suggestions that the NHS is being set up to fail by devious Tories who want to make money from the privatisation of services. I prefer Hanlon's Razor, and it is stupidity from Brexit, followed by the impact of the pandemic on a weakened health service and government incompetence, that have driven the NHS to the state it is in now.

Darat · 14th January 2023, 07:45 AM

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/dar...id-nhs-crisis/
....Private health firms have donated more than £800,000 to the Conservative Party over the past ten years, openDemocracy can reveal.

This includes companies run by wealthy tycoons who have wined and dined former prime ministers Boris Johnson and Theresa May and other senior ministers.....

Matthew Best · 14th January 2023, 07:53 AM

Originally Posted by novaphile

Rising consumption of alcohol and other behaviour modifying drugs that cause accidents and injuries have an effect.

I thought alcohol and drug consumption was going down, but perhaps I got the wrong impression.

Can you disclose your source for this information?

Darat · 14th January 2023, 08:35 AM

Originally Posted by Matthew Best

I thought alcohol and drug consumption was going down, but perhaps I got the wrong impression.

Can you disclose your source for this information?

It's very complicated- there is evidence that the over 50s alcohol consumption has increased and that many of them are drinking at levels that will cause them health issues, there is also evidence that the under 25s are drinking less than previous generations so alcohol consumption could go up even if percentages for some groups fall.

Matthew Best · 14th January 2023, 08:37 AM

I should have known it wasn't as simple as I thought. It never is.

novaphile · 14th January 2023, 04:18 PM

Originally Posted by Darat

It's very complicated- there is evidence that the over 50s alcohol consumption has increased and that many of them are drinking at levels that will cause them health issues, there is also evidence that the under 25s are drinking less than previous generations so alcohol consumption could go up even if percentages for some groups fall.

Anecdotally, under 25s are drinking less, because they prefer other drugs...

Here in Australia meth amphetamines are causing serious problems.

I had heard that meth was being used by workers because they were failing alcohol tests.

Police now routinely test for alcohol and drugs (cannabis and meth) so I'd imagine employers would follow suit.

rjh01 · 14th January 2023, 11:09 PM

Originally Posted by novaphile

Anecdotally, under 25s are drinking less, because they prefer other drugs...

Here in Australia meth amphetamines are causing serious problems.

I had heard that meth was being used by workers because they were failing alcohol tests.

Police now routinely test for alcohol and drugs (cannabis and meth) so I'd imagine employers would follow suit.

Found some stats on Alcohol Trends in Western Australia. It shows the risk decreased between 2010-2019.

Quote:

In Western Australia, those within the 20-29 year age group are most likely to drink at-risk of single occasion harm at least monthly (40.8%). This is followed by those in the 30-39 (30.9%) and 40-49 (28.4%) year old age groups.6

https://alcoholthinkagain.com.au/res...se-statistics/

13th January 2023, 04:01 PM	#41
novaphile Quester of Doglets Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Sunny South Australia Posts: 3,991	Originally Posted by Planigale The main reason at present is because of a surge in admissions due to a combination of flu and covid. On a background of failure in social care. It is not really the NHS that is failing, it is social care. Many of the patients I look after are elderly, living alone, with dementia. They have deteriorated over the last two years. They get covid or flu not badly, but they take to their beds and get dehydrated or fall and can't get up. They came to hospital, they don't really need the sort of acute care* the NHS is good at delivering, but they need a prolonged period of rehab or a care home. They need a welfare and financial guardian appointed, this can take months, unfortunately they cannot leave hospital until a guardian is appointed who can agree to their going to a care home. So we have wards full of elderly frail patients we cannot just send home because they would just die. This means we have no beds to admit new patients to. So we treat sick patients in corridors whilst frail elderly with no acute medical problem occupy acute beds. The present crisis is an acute crisis of respiratory infections that will resolve and a chronic crisis that is a social care crisis that won't. The fix needed is social care not the NHS. These elderly frail people should be detected earlier and their admissions with an acute social crisis prevented. *Also that I am trained to deliver; we need more geriatric doctors and beds, my skills are in critically ill patients. There are ongoing demographic changes (remember the baby boom?) that have put more pressure on the NHS and funding has not risen sufficiently to keep up. Rising consumption of alcohol and other behaviour modifying drugs that cause accidents and injuries have an effect. Other policy decisions, like the closure of public supported accommodation for people with mental health issues, and the closure of public supported aged care accommodation increase pressure on the NHS. Not to mention, deliberate underfunding of equipment maintenance etc and defunding of training places for new Doctors and Nurses etc. Pretty much part of the "One side is doing its best to destroy civilisation" that I've mentioned elsewhere.
	__________________ We would be better, and braver, to engage in enquiry, rather than indulge in the idle fancy, that we already know -- Plato.

13th January 2023, 04:23 PM	#42
bluesjnr Professional Nemesis for Hire Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Home. Posts: 10,806	Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle Problem is current Labour policy (since 1997) is: "We'll do the same as the Tories, but won't laugh so maniacally while doing it." A bright shining light on why it is what it is and what it will be.
	__________________ "OTP? I don' need no steenkin' OTP!"

13th January 2023, 11:29 PM	#43
novaphile Quester of Doglets Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Sunny South Australia Posts: 3,991	Margaret Thatcher has been quoted as claiming that "New Labour" (i.e. right-wing Labour) was her greatest achievement while in office.
	__________________ We would be better, and braver, to engage in enquiry, rather than indulge in the idle fancy, that we already know -- Plato.

14th January 2023, 03:46 AM	#44
Nessie Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 14,027	There are many suggestions that the NHS is being set up to fail by devious Tories who want to make money from the privatisation of services. I prefer Hanlon's Razor, and it is stupidity from Brexit, followed by the impact of the pandemic on a weakened health service and government incompetence, that have driven the NHS to the state it is in now.
	__________________ Audiophile/biker/sceptic

14th January 2023, 07:45 AM	#45
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 106,880	https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/dar...id-nhs-crisis/ ....Private health firms have donated more than £800,000 to the Conservative Party over the past ten years, openDemocracy can reveal. This includes companies run by wealthy tycoons who have wined and dined former prime ministers Boris Johnson and Theresa May and other senior ministers.....
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

14th January 2023, 07:53 AM	#46
Matthew Best Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Leicester Square, London Posts: 9,669	Originally Posted by novaphile Rising consumption of alcohol and other behaviour modifying drugs that cause accidents and injuries have an effect. I thought alcohol and drug consumption was going down, but perhaps I got the wrong impression. Can you disclose your source for this information?

14th January 2023, 08:35 AM	#47
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 106,880	Originally Posted by Matthew Best I thought alcohol and drug consumption was going down, but perhaps I got the wrong impression. Can you disclose your source for this information? It's very complicated- there is evidence that the over 50s alcohol consumption has increased and that many of them are drinking at levels that will cause them health issues, there is also evidence that the under 25s are drinking less than previous generations so alcohol consumption could go up even if percentages for some groups fall.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

14th January 2023, 08:37 AM	#48
Matthew Best Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Leicester Square, London Posts: 9,669	I should have known it wasn't as simple as I thought. It never is.

14th January 2023, 04:18 PM	#49
novaphile Quester of Doglets Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Sunny South Australia Posts: 3,991	Originally Posted by Darat It's very complicated- there is evidence that the over 50s alcohol consumption has increased and that many of them are drinking at levels that will cause them health issues, there is also evidence that the under 25s are drinking less than previous generations so alcohol consumption could go up even if percentages for some groups fall. Anecdotally, under 25s are drinking less, because they prefer other drugs... Here in Australia meth amphetamines are causing serious problems. I had heard that meth was being used by workers because they were failing alcohol tests. Police now routinely test for alcohol and drugs (cannabis and meth) so I'd imagine employers would follow suit.
	__________________ We would be better, and braver, to engage in enquiry, rather than indulge in the idle fancy, that we already know -- Plato.

14th January 2023, 11:09 PM	#50
rjh01 Gentleman of leisure Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Flying around in the sky Posts: 27,578	Originally Posted by novaphile Anecdotally, under 25s are drinking less, because they prefer other drugs... Here in Australia meth amphetamines are causing serious problems. I had heard that meth was being used by workers because they were failing alcohol tests. Police now routinely test for alcohol and drugs (cannabis and meth) so I'd imagine employers would follow suit. Found some stats on Alcohol Trends in Western Australia. It shows the risk decreased between 2010-2019. Quote: In Western Australia, those within the 20-29 year age group are most likely to drink at-risk of single occasion harm at least monthly (40.8%). This is followed by those in the 30-39 (30.9%) and 40-49 (28.4%) year old age groups.6 https://alcoholthinkagain.com.au/res...se-statistics/
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