Greta Thunberg - brave campaigner or deeply disturbed? Part II.

[Skeptical Greg]

It's a distraction because it is miniscule compared to the greater problem of fossil fuels.
Yes, if no one ate meat emissions would go down, but what would be the net effect on AGW?

Of course, massive meat consumption is not going to go down, any more than the massive use of plastics and other fossil fuel driven consumables until it is forced upon us.

[Roboramma]

Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg

It's a distraction because it is miniscule compared to the greater problem of fossil fuels.
Yes, if no one ate meat emissions would go down, but what would be the net effect on AGW?

Of course, massive meat consumption is not going to go down, any more than the massive use of plastics and other fossil fuel driven consumables until it is forced upon us.

Food production accounts of a quarter of greenhouse gas emissions worldwide. It's far from miniscule.

https://ourworldindata.org/environme...mpacts-of-food

Quote:

- [hilte]Food production accounts for over a quarter (26%) of global greenhouse gas emissions.[/hilite]
- Half of the world’s habitable land is used for agriculture. Habitable land is the land that is ice- and desert-free.
- 70% of global freshwater withdrawals are used for agriculture.
- 78% of global ocean and freshwater eutrophication is caused by agriculture. - Eutrophication is the pollution of waterways with nutrient-rich water.
- 94% of non-human mammal biomass is livestock. This means livestock outweigh wild mammals by a factor of 15-to-1.
- 71% of bird biomass is poultry livestock. This means poultry livestock outweigh wild birds by a factor of more than 3-to-1

Given this, and the fact that some foods have a much higher carbon footprint/calorie (or per/gram of protein) than others, dietary changes are probably one of the easiest ways people can lower their carbon footprint.

[Stout]

Originally Posted by Darat

You seem to have missed out a stage - and that is how we produce feed for those cows, we use your "sequestered for hundreds of millions of years" carbon to make that food, to distribute that food and so on. The cows aren't simply recycling the same carbon.

That was actually a post about cow farts but yes, processing as well as transportation do factor into the equation. We've done packaging previously on this thread but we can revisit it and a now that we've touched on eating locally maybe it's time to raise the topic of eating seasonally.

Given that there's a lot of support for Thunberg, who want's to totally upend the developed world it shouldn't be to much of an ask to ask her supporters (and young people) to not only eat locally but by seasonal local vegetables and revive the lost art of preserving then for the winter. I'll bet your parents used to do this.

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally Posted by Roboramma

...
Given this, and the fact that some foods have a much higher carbon footprint/calorie (or per/gram of protein) than others, dietary changes are probably one of the easiest ways people can lower their carbon footprint.

My bad. Miniscule was a poor choice of word..

I agree it would be an easy way to change one's carbon footprint, if you are talking about cutting back on meat and sourcing all/most foods locally, but there is no indication developed countries, i.e. the populous, has any inclination to do the easy stuff voluntarily.

So, aside from the fact that it's not going to happen, I still think it's a distraction from the sort of drastic changes that Greta is calling for.

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by Stout

Given that there's a lot of support for Thunberg, who want's to totally upend the developed world it shouldn't be to much of an ask to ask her supporters (and young people) to not only eat locally but by seasonal local vegetables and revive the lost art of preserving then for the winter. I'll bet your parents used to do this.

Greta fans aren't going to give up cheese any more than they're going to give up luxury air travel. Even though that's exactly what she's calling on them - and the rest of us - to do.

People would have a much better opinion of virtue signaling if it actually meant leading by example.

[Roger Ramjets]

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

You can't wait until they're all 5 years old. You have to kill them all, now. Every last one. Okay, now that you've done that, you've got a huge amount of substandard meat - dairy cattle aren't the same as beef cattle and their steaks aren't anywhere near as good. So all that unsellable meat is going to rot. Have you taken into account the greenhouse gas emissions of millions of tons of rotting cow carcasses? Where are you going to put them? Or are you going to burn them and put all the carbon that is currently sequestered in their bodies into the atmosphere?

You wouldn't kill them all at once of course, that would be silly. Without breeding and milking the cows kept alive would produce a lot less greenhouse gas. Substandard meat is worth less yes, but meat is normally expensive in New Zealand so there would be no shortage of customers.

Quote:

These are the things that you have to think about before proposing "just stop eating cheese". It. Ain't. That. Simple.

Actually it is. But this is why progress never gets made. The naysayers always come up with silly objections like 'what are you going to do with all the rotting carcasses?'. Nobody is proposing that it be done instantly.

Quote:

Also - stop eating cheese? Are you crazy?

Most people eat far too much cheese.

Originally Posted by FatherLukeduke

Err, no. They export 95% of that dairy, so if they stopped consuming the 5% they keep then they would cut their emissions by 1%.

You found the deliberate mistake! (I was going to say 'production' but that would be cheating). Yes, New Zealand does export ~95% of their dairy products (might be a bit lower now due to China's Covid problems). But if other countries dropped their consumption too that export market would disappear.

Weak Chinese Demand Drags Down EU, New Zealand Dairy Exports

Quote:

New Zealand’s exports to China nearly halved from a year ago, down 46% from the historically strong volumes posted from China last year. At 22,884 tonnes, NZ’s WMP shipments to China were the lowest since last August and down 66% or 44,841 tones year on year at 22,884 tonnes.

NZ total export volumes to May 2022
Milk powders:- 125,413 tonnes
Fluid milk and cream:- 33,774 tonnes
Cheese:- 24,540 tonnes
Butter:- 15,862 tones

Also,
Domestic consumption of milk in New Zealand from 2016 to 2022 with a forecast for 2023

Quote:

At around 535,000 metric tons in 2022, the consumption volume of milk has gradually increased across New Zealand over the past five years. New Zealand has one of the highest per capita consumption rates of fresh white milk in the world.

If New Zealand cut out dairy products completely and didn't produce any for domestic or export consumption, they would cut emissions by ~20%. Or they could reduce production by 50% and cut emissions by 10%, which is still a worthwhile amount. But of course that won't happen because people like their dairy too much, as well their 4k TVs etc. (which Kiwis wouldn't be able to afford without exporting milk products). So they are attempting to reduce emissions by other means which will have negligible effect.

But don't worry, once the climate changes so much that intensive dairy farming is impracticable the problem will fix itself.

[Roger Ramjets]

Originally Posted by theprestige

Greta fans aren't going to give up cheese any more than they're going to give up luxury air travel. Even though that's exactly what she's calling on them - and the rest of us - to do.

People would have a much better opinion of virtue signaling if it actually meant leading by example.

I like cheese too, but I cut down by 75% because it was affecting my health. That's not leading by example, it's just common sense. But yesterday I went to the supermarket and oh boy were there some great examples of people signalling how not to eat.

[8enotto]

Probably 60% of the meat and a bigger portion of the fruit and veggies in the market local to me is locally produced.
We have wal mart and other big chains here too so every taste is accommodated.

Most of the veggies are fresh and quite inexpensive so most here are already doing the good deed.
Because most families not having a lot of disposable income forces them to do so.

One of the benefits of living in an area that we can pull two crops off a field in a year.
I can't see this becoming a reality in northern four seasons climates with big cities. Each area has to adapt whatever measures make sense there.

[The Don]

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, the carbon-reduction benefits of local eating are much smaller than the benefits of changing your diet to reduce the amount high carbon elements, especially meat.

In any case, as others have pointed out, it's about the whole package of measures that you as an individual can take to reduce your carbon footprint. For example:

• Mrs Don and I have not had children
• Through a combination of better insulation, ditching the AGA and lowering the thermostat, we have reduced our use of heating oil by around 30%
• A combination of not taking long-haul holidays and eliminating business air travel has reduced our airmiles by over 95%
• A combination of less travel (facilitated primarily by a change to home-working) and switching to a more efficient ICE vehicle (me) and an electric one (Mrs Don) has reduced our petrol consumption by well over 80%
• Despite now having an EV which is mostly charged at home (around 1,300 kwh per year), a combination of more careful usage and solar panels has reduced our electricity consumption by at least 20% (we have yet to experience a summer with the solar panels)
• Mrs Don and I have taken steps to de-carbon our diet. She is following a vegan diet, I am following a vegetarian diet which is in contrast to a couple of years ago where we would eat meat almost every day and often twice a day
• We try to re-use and/or buy used where practical

None of this entails living in a cave and eating moss and lichen. We live a comfortable UK (upper) middle class lifestyle broadly indistinguishable from our friends and neighbours.

Not everyone can make these changes. Not everyone would want to. We have chosen to do this despite not having any "skin" in the game once we're dead. Undoubtedly we could make many more changes but we're either unaware of what they are or unwilling to make them (for example I'm not currently prepared to go vegan).

[The Don]

Originally Posted by theprestige

Greta fans aren't going to give up cheese any more than they're going to give up luxury air travel. Even though that's exactly what she's calling on them - and the rest of us - to do.

People would have a much better opinion of virtue signaling if it actually meant leading by example.

They don't necessarily have to give it up, just cutting down would be a major help.

Mrs Don and I used to take 2 long haul holidays a year and a couple of short haul ones. I also used to fly every week, an hour each way, to get to work.

I haven't flown long haul for more than 5 years (Mrs Don had to fly back to the States for a family bereavement) and I no longer have to fly for business. In terms of miles flown, we've reduced our "luxury air travel" by more than 95% which, while not perfect, is a major step forward.

edited to add...

My cheese consumption is far, far lower than it was but like Roger Ramjets that decision was taken for health/weight management reasons.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by The Don

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, the carbon-reduction benefits of local eating are much smaller than the benefits of changing your diet to reduce the amount high carbon elements, especially meat.

In any case, as others have pointed out, it's about the whole package of measures that you as an individual can take to reduce your carbon footprint. For example:

• Mrs Don and I have not had children
• Through a combination of better insulation, ditching the AGA and lowering the thermostat, we have reduced our use of heating oil by around 30%
• A combination of not taking long-haul holidays and eliminating business air travel has reduced our airmiles by over 95%
• A combination of less travel (facilitated primarily by a change to home-working) and switching to a more efficient ICE vehicle (me) and an electric one (Mrs Don) has reduced our petrol consumption by well over 80%
• Despite now having an EV which is mostly charged at home (around 1,300 kwh per year), a combination of more careful usage and solar panels has reduced our electricity consumption by at least 20% (we have yet to experience a summer with the solar panels)
• Mrs Don and I have taken steps to de-carbon our diet. She is following a vegan diet, I am following a vegetarian diet which is in contrast to a couple of years ago where we would eat meat almost every day and often twice a day
• We try to re-use and/or buy used where practical

None of this entails living in a cave and eating moss and lichen. We live a comfortable UK (upper) middle class lifestyle broadly indistinguishable from our friends and neighbours.

Not everyone can make these changes. Not everyone would want to. We have chosen to do this despite not having any "skin" in the game once we're dead. Undoubtedly we could make many more changes but we're either unaware of what they are or unwilling to make them (for example I'm not currently prepared to go vegan).

Don't think it will decrease a lot - probably 10% or so.

[The Don]

Originally Posted by Darat

Don't think it will decrease a lot - probably 10% or so.

Maybe.

Our "phantom load" is around 200w - 300w. At the moment the panels cover that for 4 hours on a bright day. In the summer we'd hope for maybe 10 hours. That would save us 1.5 kwh, nearly 20% of our usage on a day when Mrs Don isn't charging her car.

We're also planning on installing a car charger which automatically takes any extra solar production and uses it to charge Mrs Don's car. That would save us at least 25 kwh a week, more than 25% of our typical usage.

We'll also be able to power our washing machine and dishwasher from the panels more regularly.

[Ryan O'Dine]

Let's try something different. How about someone name a conservative spokesperson / champion / activist for the environment with a global audience -- let's say since the Regan era or later -- and we can compare and contrast methods and effectiveness with Thunberg's approach.

I'd offer a name, but I can't think of one. Someone help me out?

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by Ryan O'Dine

Let's try something different. How about someone name a conservative spokesperson / champion / activist for the environment with a global audience -- let's say since the Regan era or later -- and we can compare and contrast methods and effectiveness with Thunberg's approach.

I'd offer a name, but I can't think of one. Someone help me out?

I think we're okay, sticking to the actual topic of the thread. Especially since you don't support Thunberg's policy prescriptions anyway.

[Ryan O'Dine]

Originally Posted by theprestige

I think we're okay, sticking to the actual topic of the thread. Especially since you don't support Thunberg's policy prescriptions anyway.

I support her activism. I support her efforts to change people's thinking. I support her reliance on science.

I'm trying to think of a conservative activist with a global audience who tried to do promote environmentalism. It might help us put Thunberg's activism in context.

Anybody else come up with a name?

[Stout]

Arnold Schwarzenegger

[Darat]

Originally Posted by Stout

Arnold Schwarzenegger

That surprises me - didn't have a clue that he is an environmental campaigner.


ETA: Indeed he does seem to be one - he loves Greta by the way:

Quote:

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e...-a9164331.html
...snip....

Arnold Schwarzenegger praises climate activist Greta Thunberg: ‘I think politicians are listening’
Terminator star recently offered to lend Thunberg an electric car to help her get around the US
...snip...


However, he made it clear he was a fan of Thunberg, calling her “fantastic” and adding: “She’s a child and here’s children saying ‘when you screw this up with the environment, it’s our generation that’s going to suffer’, and I think that’s a very compelling message and I think politicians are listening.”


...snip...

[Skeptical Greg]

Quote:

‘I think politicians are listening’

You think?

[Ryan O'Dine]

Originally Posted by Stout

Arnold Schwarzenegger

Thank you, that's a good one. Nice to see he's a Greta fan, looks like he appreciates her methods.

I do think that adds a little perspective to her activism -- that you can come from the right and still cheer her on.

[dann]

If he's a Great fan, he can't be a proper conservative. He is obviously a commie RINO!
Arnold Schwarzenegger: Tells People Refusing to Get Vaccinated and Mask Up to Go **** Themselves

[Samson]

Originally Posted by Stout

That was actually a post about cow farts but yes, processing as well as transportation do factor into the equation. We've done packaging previously on this thread but we can revisit it and a now that we've touched on eating locally maybe it's time to raise the topic of eating seasonally.

Given that there's a lot of support for Thunberg, who want's to totally upend the developed world it shouldn't be to much of an ask to ask her supporters (and young people) to not only eat locally but by seasonal local vegetables and revive the lost art of preserving then for the winter. I'll bet your parents used to do this.

Yes
Agee jars.

[The Don]

Originally Posted by Ryan O'Dine

I support her activism. I support her efforts to change people's thinking. I support her reliance on science.

I'm trying to think of a conservative activist with a global audience who tried to do promote environmentalism. It might help us put Thunberg's activism in context.

Anybody else come up with a name?

Given that one of the core tenets of conservatism in theory should be* to maintain the status quo, advocating change would tend to run counter to that.



* - Modern large 'C' Conservatism isn't like that at all IMO. It is in favour of radical change to shake up the status quo (which is leading society to hell in a handcart) which would lead to an instatement of Conservative values to save society.

[The Don]

Originally Posted by Stout

That was actually a post about cow farts but yes, processing as well as transportation do factor into the equation. We've done packaging previously on this thread but we can revisit it and a now that we've touched on eating locally maybe it's time to raise the topic of eating seasonally.

Given that there's a lot of support for Thunberg, who want's to totally upend the developed world it shouldn't be to much of an ask to ask her supporters (and young people) to not only eat locally but by seasonal local vegetables and revive the lost art of preserving then for the winter. I'll bet your parents used to do this.

At the absolute extreme, yes, these are the kinds of steps that would be necessary.

OTOH most people could significantly reduce their carbon footprint (and by significantly I mean by tens of percent) by:

• Running a more fuel efficient vehicle and/or shift to less carbon intensive modes of transport
• Taking steps to reduce travel, professionally and recreationally
• Improving the thermal performance of your home and workspace
• The thermostat a couple of degrees closer to ambient temperature
• Replacing older, less efficient, appliances and lights with modern, more efficient ones
• Significantly reducing the amount of meat and fish that they eat

None of which means significantly compromising on lifestyle.

It's better that 100% of people reduce their carbon emissions by 20% than 10% of people reduce theirs by 75% and everyone else continues as they are.

All of those steps would also save a significant amount of money over the long term.