Continuation Today's Mass Shooting (2)

[smartcooky]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

By already having a register of ownership and the backing of the vast majority of the population and legislators.
Same as in the UK after Hungerford for assault weapons and and Dunblane for handguns

Same here after the Christchurch Mosque shootings. The legislation for compulsory buyback and banning of semi-automatic weapons was passed through Parliament 119-1.

[dudalb]

Originally Posted by smartcooky

As long as you have such a backwards SYSTEM in your House of Government, that allows the MINORITY to dictate to the MAJORITY what legislation can be passed, NO presdient can ever be held to blame for not getting things done.

As long as you have such a backwards judicial system that gives wholly unqualified people lifetime appointments to your highest court, a system that allows one party to have dominance and influence over laws YEARS after those who appointed them have gone from office, you will continue to suffer things like having religious and political dogma take away your human rights and ability to change laws that YOUR PEOPLE want changed!!!!


You need to do away with the filibuster, permanently and for everything. No other civilized country in the world has a system where the majority needs the consent of the minority to pass laws and legislation.

You need to do away with Presidential nominations and political appointments of Judges, and instead, have experience and qualifications as the basis for the various levels of federal benches.

You need to do away with lifetime appointments to the benches of the Circuit Courts and SCOTUS. Six years maximum term followed by three years standdown before possible reappointment with a maximum to two terms, and forced retirement at 65.

The system in America is broken, badly. Nothing in America is going to change until the system changes.

Then who should make the appointments? If you have two equally qualified candiates who picks between them?
And "expreince and qualifications" is a pretty neblous term anyway
I agree there should not be life appointments.
Problem with you solutions is they are too technocratic and ignore the fact that any system is only as good as the people who run it. Something the technocrats like to forget.
I am not syaing changes should not be made but if you get the wrong people in charge any system is not going to work.

[angrysoba]

Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg

Oh, I don't know.

Exactly. Hardly any. They’re on Instagram.

[dudalb]

Originally Posted by The Don

Remember, it's the 75% of the US population who support gun control who are the real villains and the real threat to public safety.

But that 75% differs a lot on what "gun control" should be.
Read the polls more carefully.

[The Great Zaganza]

Originally Posted by lauwenmark

And what exactly could you try? As long as there is no strong will to change things in the majority of the population, that's pointless.

People will pray, mourn, and tweet; that's it. They won't do anything, because the majority of them is not ready to sacrifice their private entertainment for the life of others.

mandatory gun insurance would be one thing.
A tax on gifting/inheriting guns would provide both the funds and the data to monitor where a lot of currently obscure guns are.
Pushing money into the CDC doing a lot more research on gun deaths.

[dudalb]

Originally Posted by lionking

Yes this is obvious. Are you happy with this?

An honest answer would be “I accept gun deaths, including massacres of young children, is an acceptable cost of our second amendment rights”.

Are you prepared to make this statement?

You don't get it. "Things are terrible and there is nothing we can do about it" is the cool, angst driven attitude to have nowdays among colllege students and much of the Intelleginesia in the US.
IMHO this is just moody Teenage Angst extended beyond the teen age years.

[dudalb]

Originally Posted by Lurch

To those who might take offense over my missives and rants about American insanity leading to a hate-on... The numbing repetitiveness of vile events like this, the political and societal climate that fosters them, the squalid valuation of money and power over the lives of even children, and the obscene indifference in certain quarters sure does make it hard to like y'all as a group.

Don't tell me your ancestors were Empire Loyalists, right?

[dudalb]

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

There are a ton of things we could TRY, for zorg's sake.
If someone tells you that it's hopeless, they usually have a vested interest in not doing anything.

Of course If we are doomed, then no need to actually get off your butt and do something.
And of course, I think you have a certain "The sooner we have fascism the sooner we will have the Glorous People's Revolution" feeling among some here.

[Nessie]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

You have just listed all the reasons given over the years against the move from single shot to magazine loading then to semi auto rifles for the military.

If what you say is true then why don't the military still use single shot or bolt action rifles?

That you can't see why having a 30 round magazine, semi auto rifle isn't an aid to killing lots of people quickly is mind boggling.

I am not saying it is not an aid. Instead, I have shown evidence that even single or limited shot firearms can be used in mass shootings to great effect.

Do snipers not tend to use single or limited shot rifles?

[dudalb]

Originally Posted by Nessie

I am not saying it is not an aid. Instead, I have shown evidence that even single or limited shot firearms can be used in mass shootings to great effect.

Do snipers not tend to use single or limited shot rifles?

You just want all private ownership of guns banned, period.
That will never ,every happen in the US. It just politiclly impossible.
Anyway, the real problem is with assault weapons. Let's concentrare on that.

[ZiprHead]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

I've said it before, in the USA, people are happy with the regular sacrifice of <other people's> children to keep their guns

FTFY

[dudalb]

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

mandatory gun insurance would be one thing.
A tax on gifting/inheriting guns would provide both the funds and the data to monitor where a lot of currently obscure guns are.
Pushing money into the CDC doing a lot more research on gun deaths.

I also think..this is critical...don't treat all guns alike.
Concentrate on Assault weapons, that is where the problem is.
make insurange rates low for things like Bolt action hunting rifles, but very high for assualt weapons.
I won't get into a debate if the de facto banning of privately owned guns is a good or bad idea. but it is politcally impossible, A great many people who pools say they favor gun control don't favor a de facto ban on all weapons.

[Bob001]

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Read between the lines and the cops ran away. Somehow there was an exchange of gunfire outside, then nothing while cops waited for backup and this guy killed without interference inside.
....

Do we know that? Apparently two cops were shot, and the gunman barricaded himself in a classroom with cinder block walls and opened fire.

Quote:

"Just goes to show you the complete evil from this shooter," Lt. Olivarez told CNN.

We had local law enforcement from Uvalde Police Department, one of the school police officers as well as state troopers that arrived on scene. They were the initial officers on scene. They heard the gunfire, they were met with gunfire as they encountered this gunman who was able to shoot two police officers, nonlife threatening injuries, they are stable, they are out of the hospital, but at that point they were at a disadvantage because the gunman was able to make entry into a classroom, barricade himself inside that classroom and then that's when he just -- he started shooting children and the teachers that we talked about, two teachers were killed inside that classroom.

https://news4sanantonio.com/news/loc...ntonio-classes

[Bob001]

Originally Posted by Nessie

I am not saying it is not an aid. Instead, I have shown evidence that even single or limited shot firearms can be used in mass shootings to great effect.

Do snipers not tend to use single or limited shot rifles?

Aw, c'mon. What's your point? How do you compare a sniper selecting a single distant target from concealment to somebody going into a classroom, probably about 30-feet square, and opening fire at very close range with a rapid-fire semi-auto loaded with a 30-round magazine? How long do you think it would take to fire 30 rounds from a bolt-action deer rifle? Have you actually used guns?

[Bob001]

Originally Posted by dudalb

But that 75% differs a lot on what "gun control" should be.
Read the polls more carefully.

Some commentators are making the point that "gun control" is an antiquated and intimidating term. What proponents have been talking about for years is "gun safety."

[Captain_Swoop]

Fox guest suggests parents should be purchasing "ballistic blankets" for children instead of toys and games.

video in link

https://twitter.com/NikkiMcR/status/1529231148689285120

[Bob001]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Fox guest suggests parents should be purchasing "ballistic blankets" for children instead of toys and games.

video in link

https://twitter.com/NikkiMcR/status/1529231148689285120

Well, "bulletproof" backpacks have been around for a long time.

https://www.thehomesecuritysuperstor...roof-backpacks
https://bulletproofzone.com/collections/bags-backpacks

[Meadmaker]

I've gotten kind of confused reading about the response of local cops. Last night I read, and posted here, that there was a school cop on the scene, but other accounts seem to indicate the school cop arrived on the scene after the shooting started.

I was surprised to hear that there was a school cop at an elementary school at all.



I read there was a high school nearby. I'm wondering if the school cop was actually assigned to the high school, and travelled to the elementary school after reports of shooting. That's speculation on my part, trying to sort out apparently contradictory stories.

[catsmate]

Originally Posted by Bob001

Gov. Abbott is on TV now holding forth about how the solution to mass killings is improved mental health services.

Also fortifying schools and arming teachers.

[Rolfe]

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

I've gotten kind of confused reading about the response of local cops. Last night I read, and posted here, that there was a school cop on the scene, but other accounts seem to indicate the school cop arrived on the scene after the shooting started.

I was surprised to hear that there was a school cop at an elementary school at all.

I read there was a high school nearby. I'm wondering if the school cop was actually assigned to the high school, and travelled to the elementary school after reports of shooting. That's speculation on my part, trying to sort out apparently contradictory stories.

How a sunny Uvalde school day ended in bloodshed

This BBC version seems to have got its ducks in a row as far as I can see. There have been several updates which have corrected errors, so they seem to have been checking. Of course, they could still be wrong, but it seems like a decent account.

[lionking]

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

Did you have a massive anti-gun control "but mah freeeeedoms!" public and political party fighting against this sensible act?

There was political consensus which resulted in 700,000 semi automatics and handguns purchased by the government, handed in or confiscated.

https://www.sydney.edu.au/news-opini...rt-arthur.html

Quote:

In 1997, the year after the Port Arthur massacre, Australia had 6.52 licensed firearm owners per 100 population. By 2020, that proportion had almost halved, to 3.41 licensed gun owners for every 100 people.

Mass gun massacres ceased after this.

[Meadmaker]

Originally Posted by Rolfe

How a sunny Uvalde school day ended in bloodshed

This BBC version seems to have got its ducks in a row as far as I can see. There have been several updates which have corrected errors, so they seem to have been checking. Of course, they could still be wrong, but it seems like a decent account.

I'm a bit confused, still, but I suppose more will come out.

It seems like there was one cop who worked at the school, and two others from the local PD, who were on the scene as the shooter got out of his car, firing.

But they couldn't keep him from getting into the school. It said they shot at him. Body armor saved the shooter maybe? With three guys shooting at him, it seems like they ought to have been able to do something to stop him, especially as he had already fired shots.

Or did they try and capture him, ordering him to stay still or get down or such, and only shoot when they realized he was not going to stop? I was picturing the ditch as something a long way from the school, but maybe it was a short run.

I don't know, and it doesn't much matter. It's a pity they didn't kill him on the way in, and the people close to the matter will be asking the same questions. Maybe they'll share the answers.

ETA: But, I've heard people calling for armed guards at schools. I guess those people haven't heard that the school actually had an armed guard, and it did no good.

[Sideroxylon]

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

I'm a bit confused, still, but I suppose more will come out.

It seems like there was one cop who worked at the school, and two others from the local PD, who were on the scene as the shooter got out of his car, firing.

But they couldn't keep him from getting into the school. It said they shot at him. Body armor saved the shooter maybe? With three guys shooting at him, it seems like they ought to have been able to do something to stop him, especially as he had already fired shots.

Or did they try and capture him, ordering him to stay still or get down or such, and only shoot when they realized he was not going to stop? I was picturing the ditch as something a long way from the school, but maybe it was a short run.

I don't know, and it doesn't much matter. It's a pity they didn't kill him on the way in, and the people close to the matter will be asking the same questions. Maybe they'll share the answers.

ETA: But, I've heard people calling for armed guards at schools. I guess those people haven't heard that the school actually had an armed guard, and it did no good.

Yes, but a good guy with a gun!

[Sideroxylon]

Originally Posted by lionking

There was political consensus which resulted in 700,000 semi automatics and handguns purchased by the government, handed in or confiscated.

https://www.sydney.edu.au/news-opini...rt-arthur.html



Mass gun massacres ceased after this.

Maybe the country that put a human on the moon needs to stop lamenting how hard it would be and bloody well have a go. Can-do attitudes or something.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Fox guest suggests parents should be purchasing "ballistic blankets" for children instead of toys and games.

video in link

https://twitter.com/NikkiMcR/status/1529231148689285120

If fox news is "suggesting" it then it is beyond doubt that a significant percentage of Americans agree with the "suggestion". A sick society getting sicker by the day.

And there are posts in this thread that provide more than adequate examples of the reasons why I seldom bother coming to these forums any more.

[Sideroxylon]

Originally Posted by Steve

If fox news is "suggesting" it then it is beyond doubt that a significant percentage of Americans agree with the "suggestion". A sick society getting sicker by the day.

And there are posts in this thread that provide more than adequate examples of the reasons why I seldom bother coming to these forums any more.

Utter pants-on-your-head lunacy spoken in earnest.

[crescent]

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

ETA: But, I've heard people calling for armed guards at schools. I guess those people haven't heard that the school actually had an armed guard, and it did no good.

Columbine had an armed guard, approached the shooters outside the building, exchanged gunfire with the two gun students and thought he almost hit one. But then they fired back and entered the building anyway.

Stoneman Douglas had an armed guard. He hid behind a trash can until more cops arrived.

People calling for armed guards at schools might need to be schooled as to the effectiveness of these guards.

[Rolfe]

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

Maybe the country that put a human on the moon needs to stop lamenting how hard it would be and bloody well have a go. Can-do attitudes or something.

This. Other than the "human" part. Which is bad grammar.

[dudalb]

Originally Posted by Steve

If fox news is "suggesting" it then it is beyond doubt that a significant percentage of Americans agree with the "suggestion". A sick society getting sicker by the day.

And there are posts in this thread that provide more than adequate examples of the reasons why I seldom bother coming to these forums any more.

If the US does go to hell be carefull; it might drag Canada down with it.
I am getting a little tired of schanfeurde about the US on display here.

[Sideroxylon]

Originally Posted by Rolfe

This. Other than the "human" part. Which is bad grammar.

Go woke, grammar broke.

[Sideroxylon]

Originally Posted by dudalb

If the US does go to hell be carefull; it might drag Canada down with it.
I am getting a little tired of schanfeurde about the US on display here.

Huff that cope.

[Cain]

Originally Posted by crescent

Columbine had an armed guard, approached the shooters outside the building, exchanged gunfire with the two gun students and thought he almost hit one. But then they fired back and entered the building anyway.

Stoneman Douglas had an armed guard. He hid behind a trash can until more cops arrived.

People calling for armed guards at schools might need to be schooled as to the effectiveness of these guards.

All teachers should have guns and body armor to protect our children. Too bad they're lazy govt. employees who'd rather teach CRT on Zoom in their Disney-themed jamjams.

[Rolfe]

Originally Posted by Nessie

America trying to turn back the tide of guns, is like Canute trying to turn back the tide.

Americans need to accept gun massacres is normal for them.

This article in the Guardian seems to agree with you.

Shootings aren’t a sign America is ‘broken’. It’s working exactly as intended

The writer is a former executive in the firearms industry.

[mgidm86]

Originally Posted by Checkmite

Political action is the only way to prevent or even just somewhat mitigate incidents like these, so it makes no sense to arbitrarily impose some "no political talk around this incident for X amount of time" rule.

But if you insist on doing so, I would point out that it has been a week and a half since the weekend of carnage that included separate mass shootings in Buffalo, Los Angeles, Chicago, and elsewhere; surely that's a long enough delay that it's now okay to "politicize" those incidents instead. The arguments and talking points will be largely the same.

The only way to somewhat mitigate incidents like this is for the people of this country to collectively decide they have had enough. The people with the guns, to be more precise. The rest of us are already sick of it.

What will change their minds if not this? To my sister, how the hell can you walk around with an NRA shirt? Why are these guns so important to you?

To stop events like Jan 6? Ya sure, the militia groups are the ones who perpetrated it! That argument is dead. In this case I might argue that you are the oppressors, not the government. You will not budge while 6 year olds are gunned down. We all suffer because of you.

Until this happens no restrictions will be effective. Where there is a will there is a way, and that will needs to be removed.

As for "it's too soon", that is a crock of poo. We have a new shooting every week so I guess it's always too soon.

Gun owners: is there anything that would convince you to give up your guns? All of them? Do you feel any shame at all when you hear these stories?

ETA:
I'm thinking about changing how I fish because I am getting bothered by catching and releasing (torturing fish) for fun.

I am willing to at least question my hobby on moral grounds, and those are just fish. Do you ever do this when children are killed? If it does ever bother you, how do you justify or rationalize it away?

[Dr.Sid]

Well I guess the normal 'gun enthusiast' simply thinks it's not his problem, as he wouldn't do that. If anything, he would take gun violence is one of the reason to arm himself.

[mgidm86]

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid

Well I guess the normal 'gun enthusiast' simply thinks it's not his problem, as he wouldn't do that. If anything, he would take gun violence is one of the reason to arm himself.

Like the snake eating it's own tail. Gotta arm yourself to protect yourself from the guns that they love! You are correct, they don't think they are the problem. They don't think guns are the problem.

ETA:
Also these are some of the people that guns are stolen from. Those folks are part of the problem, directly. "We didn't think junior would find the gun." Heard that one more than a few times.

[mgidm86]

Never mind, maybe off topic.

[lauwenmark]

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

mandatory gun insurance would be one thing.

Yeah, great. Because giving money is a solution when someone lost a relative in a shooting, Sure.
Now, that's going to save lives... How, exactly?

Quote:

A tax on gifting/inheriting guns would provide both the funds and the data to monitor where a lot of currently obscure guns are.

So what? The problem is not about finding where old guns are. It's that any random guy can buy military-grade weapons with zero control. That's just a measure to give people the reassuring feeling that 'something has been done'.

Quote:

Pushing money into the CDC doing a lot more research on gun deaths.

More research?! What is there to research? How much funding do you think is needed to demonstrate that selling assault guns without control is a bad idea?

[Bob001]

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

I've gotten kind of confused reading about the response of local cops. Last night I read, and posted here, that there was a school cop on the scene, but other accounts seem to indicate the school cop arrived on the scene after the shooting started.

I was surprised to hear that there was a school cop at an elementary school at all.
.....

Cops -- not security guards but actual armed police officers -- are routinely assigned to U.S. schools They're often called "resource officers." It sounds like that's what this school had.

Quote:

The gunman encountered a school district police officer, who wasn't able to stop him, Estrada said.

"He was engaged by an Uvalde ISD police officer who works here at the school. And then after that, he was engaged by two other officers from the Uvalde Police Department," Estrada said.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/25/us/uv...now/index.html

[Bob001]

Originally Posted by lauwenmark

.....
More research?! What is there to research? How much funding do you think is needed to demonstrate that selling assault guns without control is a bad idea?

The CDC has been explicitly prohibited by Congress from spending money to examine gun violence, broadly, as a public health problem.