“Woke”

[HansMustermann]

Originally Posted by uke2se

Do you have a black friend?

Sure, tell us more. Like exactly why do you have to bring up your imaginary black friend so much? And is he even actually aware of being your friend? Did you actually ask him what he wants, or do you just presume that you can do the age of colonialism thing and speak for him? There's a reason why "I'm not racist, I have a black friend" is not a positive stereotype. So sit down and enlighten us why you feel some need to write THAT trope so compulsively

[Donal]

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

It's not from "nowhere", it came from a dialect of English sometimes called African-American Vernacular English (AAVE). It has since taken on additional baggage since crossing into other dialects of English. As a word and as a concept it probably does not deserve the level of hatred directed at it.

damn it, why did you have to spoil the fun of white people trying to define woke? I mean the irony of some of these comments was delicious.

[bluesjnr]

Originally Posted by uke2se

I was asking you if you had a black friend. That was before I learned you were German and sadly didn't have the opportunity to. Now I'm asking because it obviously ticks you off and I find that funny.

I think you need to re-read HansMustermanns response. He seems to be expanding on the point you made.

[HansMustermann]

Originally Posted by uke2se

I was asking you if you had a black friend. That was before I learned you were German and sadly didn't have the opportunity to. Now I'm asking because it obviously ticks you off and I find that funny.

And I'm asking YOU right back if you've actually asked that supposed black friend what he actually wants, or you're just doing the 19'th century thing of just assuming you're entitled to speak in his name. "Mission to civilize" and all that...

Because we've reached the point where, as I've provided a link before, actual people who are blacks, women or both, are asking the white saviour types to go away and stop speaking in their name.

Or you know that new anti-woke (or more accurately, free of woke stuff) comic that was discussed even on this board? That's not made by some some white southern nazi, it's made by a BLACK guy, and otherwise quite outspoken AGAINST the entertainment industry's being out to "beat people over the head with stuff like social justice." (Author's own words.) That's right, we're at the point where a black guy would rather make his own comic, FREE of the BS you guys are pushing in his name. Meanwhile the supposedly progressive white saviour types were actually trying to cancel him for it.

THAT is the point we've got to with that pseudo-progressive keyboard-warrior nonsense, regardless of whether you want to call it "woke" or any other name. It's no longer even trying to actually be an ally, it's being the annoying guy sitting at the bar next to a big black guy and trying to pick a fight for him.

[catsmate]

Originally Posted by Blue Mountain

Is it just me, or do others here when they see the word “woke" to describe people or institutions see it as shorthand for “I don't like people telling me I shouldn't hate on blacks and treat women as sex objects”?

<>

I'm interested in hearing the thoughts of others on this.

Yes. Basically it's an admission of suppressed bigotry.

[Suddenly]

Originally Posted by Blue Mountain

I added “politically correct” as a tag because, in contrast to “woke,” I view it as inclusiveness gone wild, to the degree where it's used a cudgel to shut down discussion because some snowflake somewhere might be offended. Certainly having one's ideas being challenged can sting, but people should be encouraged to separate criticism of their ideas from criticism of their person.

It's the same thing. These are mostly benign concepts that are about being aware of how the way we behave supports and reinforces inequality and maybe we should stop being oblivious and make some changes.

Then people who are benefiting from inequality feel all attacked and sad that they aren't the center of attention and start using the terms as pejoratives. Largely justifying this by focusing on the most aggressive use of these concepts, some of which are real but most somewhere between overexaggerated distortions and flat out urban legends.

We see the same with pretty much any term that addresses inequality. CRT, intersectionality, representation, privilege etc.

[Armitage72]

Don't forget "Get Woke, Go Broke", often directed at companies like Marvel/Disney, who have the nerve to create movies and TV shows with stars who aren't straight white men, obviously condemning them to inevitable financial ruin.

[uke2se]

Originally Posted by HansMustermann

And I'm asking YOU right back if you've actually asked that supposed black friend what he actually wants, or you're just doing the 19'th century thing of just assuming you're entitled to speak in his name. "Mission to civilize" and all that...

Because we've reached the point where, as I've provided a link before, actual people who are blacks, women or both, are asking the white saviour types to go away and stop speaking in their name.

Or you know that new anti-woke (or more accurately, free of woke stuff) comic that was discussed even on this board? That's not made by some some white southern nazi, it's made by a BLACK guy, and otherwise quite outspoken AGAINST the entertainment industry's being out to "beat people over the head with stuff like social justice." (Author's own words.) That's right, we're at the point where a black guy would rather make his own comic, FREE of the BS you guys are pushing in his name. Meanwhile the supposedly progressive white saviour types were actually trying to cancel him for it.

THAT is the point we've got to with that pseudo-progressive keyboard-warrior nonsense, regardless of whether you want to call it "woke" or any other name. It's no longer even trying to actually be an ally, it's being the annoying guy sitting at the bar next to a big black guy and trying to pick a fight for him.

Those are a lot of words just to say that you don't have a black friend.

I like the "It's a BLACK GUY" trope included there though.

[Lothian]

Woke seems a quicker way of saying "political correctness gone mad".
It always is presented and a negative or silly position as opposed to a rational one. It is a bullying term used to belittle people. I find my default is to be against anyone using the term.

[HansMustermann]

Originally Posted by uke2se

Thos are a lot of words just to say that you don't have a black friend.

So... you dodged any actual question, go back to just insisting that yeah but you have a black friend as if that gives you more street cred? Heh.

See, I'm not the one going "but I have a black friend", nor giving a flip about whether you believe I have one or not. Not in this thread, nor in the other. YOU on the other hand feel some compulsive need to plaster that claim about yourself across more than one page and thread.

I'm literally saying I haven't yet seen a case of anyone insisting that no, they're totally progressive because they have a black friend, who wasn't using it to cover for their being a closet racist. There's a reason why that's a stereotype. Maybe you're the first one where that doesn't apply. I suppose there has to be a first for everything. Or maybe not

So yeah, continue hammering on how you're totally on the blacks' side because you have a black friend. Heh. Yeah, that'll convince me it's not the usual case

[uke2se]

Originally Posted by HansMustermann

So... you dodged any question, go back to insisting that you have a black friend as if that gives you more street cred? Heh.

See, I'm not the one going "but I have a black friend", nor giving a flip about whether you believe I have one or not. Not in this thread, nor in the other. YOU on the other hand feel some compulsive need to plaster that claim about yourself across more than one page and thread.

I'm literally saying I haven't yet seen a case of anyone insisting that no, they're totally progressive because they have a black friend, who wasn't using it to cover for their being a closet racist. There's a reason why that's a stereotype. Maybe you're the first one where that doesn't apply. I suppose there has to be a first for everything. Or maybe not

So yeah, continue hammering on how you're totally on the blacks' side because you have a black friend. Heh. Yeah, that'll convince me it's not the usual case

Lots of emojis and angriness. Would you like a black friend?

[JoeMorgue]

*Raises hand* Hey is anyone even going to pretend this isn't just going to be the "Cancel Culture" and "CTR" threads again?

[HansMustermann]

Originally Posted by uke2se

Lots of emojis and angriness. Would you like a black friend?

So, your contribution is still just trolling and baiting? Gee, what a surprise that that's still all the intellectual contribution you can provide

And no, friends are not something that you get just to tick some checkbox. You have to have some connection with someone, not just have a name on some social media list, and not just because they'd fill some diversity quota. So no thanks, I'll find my own friends.

Which is why I'm suspecting that your supposed black "friend" doesn't even know he's your "friend". (And imagine me doing some very conspicuous Dr Evil style air quotes there.) It's probably just some guy who didn't yet tell you to shut up at the smoking area. Sure seems that way with the other people who think that saying they have one proves some kind of street cred.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

*Raises hand* Hey is anyone even going to pretend this isn't just going to be the "Cancel Culture" and "CTR" threads again?

I could try.

There are three "real" meanings 1) that originates in the black English speaking culture of the USA, 2) one that has been culturally appropriated from the black English speaking culture of the USA and 3) one which means "them".

[Brainster]

Woke is essentially equivalent to sanctimonious. Note that several of the woke defenders around here have referred to their superior moral code.

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by Donal

damn it, why did you have to spoil the fun of white people trying to define woke? I mean the irony of some of these comments was delicious.

The Monkey's definition is an assumption. Its not like it's historical breakdown and usage is a matter of demonstrable fact.

We could just as easily assert that "woke" was popularized by someone who was functionally illiterate, or worse: someone who thought "this is how them black people talk".

[Suddenly]

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

*Raises hand* Hey is anyone even going to pretend this isn't just going to be the "Cancel Culture" and "CTR" threads again?

Of course it is. It's all the exact same dynamic about the same subject matter.

[wareyin]

Was Cracker Barrel (old southern americana barn/country store style restaurant chain well known for discriminatory hiring practices) "woke" for simply adding plant based sausage to the menu?

(note, Cracker Barrel didn't "push" plant based sausage on anyone, even the NYPost article title is exaggerating the restaurant's actions to make them seem more in your face than they really were)

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by Suddenly

Of course it is. It's all the exact same dynamic about the same subject matter.

It could be, if you're an out of touch white guy who lumps all "black people stuff" in the same pile. Is that really the discussion level here?

[Darat]

Originally Posted by Thermal

The Monkey's definition is an assumption. Its not like it's historical breakdown and usage is a matter of demonstrable fact.

We could just as easily assert that "woke" was popularized by someone who was functionally illiterate, or worse: someone who thought "this is how them black people talk".

It is, as much as any other dialect use is. It was a refrain reminding other black people to be aware of the dangers they faced as black people in the USA, especially in regards to the police - it was originally used as "stay woke".

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by wareyin

Was Cracker Barrel (old southern americana barn/country store style restaurant chain well known for discriminatory hiring practices) "woke" for simply adding plant based sausage to the menu?

(note, Cracker Barrel didn't "push" plant based sausage on anyone, even the NYPost article title is exaggerating the restaurant's actions to make them seem more in your face than they really were)

I wouldn't think so. One of my kids is a vegetarian, and appreciates a variety of non-meat options.

[wareyin]

Originally Posted by Thermal

I wouldn't think so. One of my kids is a vegetarian, and appreciates a variety of non-meat options.

I wouldn't think so either, but 'offers options to people not exactly like me' as the definition being used of "woke" certainly seems to be par for the course.

[Suddenly]

Originally Posted by Brainster

Woke is essentially equivalent to sanctimonious, particularly in the religious sense. Note that several of the woke defenders around here have referred to their superior moral code.

If people who support an position are themselves being sanctimonious this has nothing to do with the validity of that position.

And, yes, if a person sees something as a moral issue that person is going to think they are on the right side of that issue. That's how that works.

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by Darat

It is, as much as any other dialect use is. It was a refrain reminding other black people to be aware of the dangers they faced as black people in the USA, especially in regards to the police - it was originally used as "stay woke".

To assert this as factual, you would have to positively identify the originator and get confirmation on their rationale for their word choice. I don't think that's do-able. You might find the earliest cached tweet or something, but you'd have to show that the tweeterer wasn't repeating an already popular spoken phrase.

If you can't demonstrate that using the phrase "I'm woke to X" was already a common part of black speech prior to the current usage, you are kinda saying "this sounds like something a black guy would say". That's not a good look.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by Thermal

To assert this as factual, you would have to positively identify the originator and get confirmation on their rationale for their word choice. I don't think that's do-able. You might find the earliest cached tweet or something, but you'd have to show that the tweeterer wasn't repeating an already popular spoken phrase.

If you can't demonstrate that using the phrase "I'm woke to X" was already a common part of black speech prior to the current usage, you are kinda saying "this sounds like something a black guy would say". That's not a good look.

You are so far off the page I really don't know where to start.

It predates the internet by quite a few decades.

I've just gone to the fount of all-knowledge(ish) to refresh my memory in case I was wrong and it is there in black and white - goes back to the 1930s.

Woke

"... Black American folk singer-songwriter Huddie Ledbetter, a.k.a. Lead Belly, uses the phrase near the end of the recording of his 1938 song "Scottsboro Boys", which tells the story of nine black teenagers accused of raping two white women, saying: "I advise everybody, be a little careful when they go along through there – best stay woke, keep their eyes open."[9][10] Aja Romano writes at Vox that this represents "Black Americans' need to be aware of racially motivated threats and the potential dangers of white America".[4] J. Saunders Redding recorded a comment from an African American United Mine Workers official in 1940, stating: "Let me tell you buddy. Waking up is a damn sight harder than going to sleep, but we'll stay woke up longer."[11]

By the mid-20th century, woke had come to mean "well-informed" or "aware",[12] especially in a political or cultural sense.[6] The Oxford English Dictionary traces the earliest such usage to a 1962 New York Times Magazine article titled "If You're Woke You Dig It" by African-American novelist William Melvin Kelley, describing the appropriation of Black slang by white beatniks.[6]

Woke had gained more political connotations by 1971 when the play Garvey Lives! by Barry Beckham included the line: "I been sleeping all my life. And now that Mr. Garvey done woke me up, I'm gon' stay woke. And I'm gon help him wake up other black folk."[13][14] Marcus Garvey had himself exhorted his early 20th century audiences, "Wake up Ethiopia! Wake up Africa!"[5] Romano describes this as "a call to global Black citizens to become more socially and politically conscious".[4] ..."

[d4m10n]

Originally Posted by Thermal

Looking at d4m10ns links above and clicking on #StayWoke, peeps are still using it to describe their wokability quite seriously.

The very first time I saw a European American individual use "woke" in the OP sense of the term, it was a (former) Skepchick calling herself "woke AF" in her bio. That was maybe 2013-2014 or so, back when I was keeping up with skeptic blogs. At the time, progressive thought leaders (like the fine ladies at Skepchick) were just starting to tune in to a phrase which had been around in AAVE^WP for several decades, one which hadn't yet peaked and subsequently been appropriated by conservatives as a term of dismissal and disparagement.

[Suddenly]

Originally Posted by Thermal

It could be, if you're an out of touch white guy who lumps all "black people stuff" in the same pile. Is that really the discussion level here?

It's all in essence just conservatives repeating progressive terms in a mocking tone of voice to assure themselves that the criticism contained within is baseless.


It isn't worth getting into the finer points of what these terms are meant to be in that context. It all comes back to people who benefit from inequality using their feelings as an excuse to ignore the issue.

[IsThisTheLife]

I thought 'woke' was coined by the woke themselves (on Tumblr et al).

[Rolfe]

What does that have to do with my post?

[Darat]

Originally Posted by d4m10n

The very first time I saw a European American individual use "woke" in the OP sense of the term, it was a (former) Skepchick calling herself "woke AF" in her bio. That was maybe 2013-2014 or so, back when I was keeping up with skeptic blogs. At the time, progressive thought leaders (like the fine ladies at Skepchick) were just starting to tune in to a phrase which had been around in AAVE^WP for several decades, one which hadn't yet peaked and subsequently been appropriated by conservatives as a term of dismissal and disparagement.

Thanks for those links especially the one to the NY Times page - I was able to read that article in its entirety and it provides such a vivid peek back into American mainstream culture.

[Suddenly]

Originally Posted by Rolfe

Well, if that's the reason it's obviously sensible, but this is the first I ever heard of it. Maybe actually explaining the situation rather than cancelling people who never saw the non-existent memo might be a good idea?

I'd be interested in an example of a person using the word "Moslem" who was immediately "cancelled" with no other context.

Or is this one of those things where ever being corrected in a way that causes any discomfort is what is meant by being canceled?

[Darat]

Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife

I thought 'woke' was coined by the woke themselves (on Tumblr et al).

Tumblr of the 1930s?

[Darat]

Originally Posted by Rolfe

Well, if that's the reason it's obviously sensible, but this is the first I ever heard of it. Maybe actually explaining the situation rather than cancelling people who never saw the non-existent memo might be a good idea?

Same thing when people refer to Scottish people as "Scotch". Once the reason why this is offensive is explained, they tend to stop doing it. But it's not reasonable to take offence if no offence was meant.

Example of anyone “ cancelling people” who use Moslem?

[Myriad]

Originally Posted by Rolfe

What does that have to do with my post?

Your post dared to suggest the heretical notion that it is not always necessary to take the maximum amount of offense possible. If the plebs were to embrace the dangerous notion that they should unify to redress systematic economic injustices instead of being offended by one another, it would slightly annoy the rich. So it is imperative that posts such as yours be immediately equated with bigotry, with or without any logical pretext.

[wareyin]

Originally Posted by Rolfe

What does that have to do with my post?

In context, we have the poster who originally brought up and used the antiquated, known to be offensive spelling pointing out that those intent on using it will use alternate spellings in an obvious attempt to avoid autocensors. And we have you, claiming that unless offense is intended, no offense should be taken. (As an aside, I've seen more than a few Scots unhappy to be referred to as Scotch. It seems even using your example that offence is taken regardless of intent).

I realize this may be a cultural issue, but I hear your insistence that "Moslem" is fine and dandy in the same vein as an old white southern American insisting that using "negroes" is fine and dandy. A long time ago, maybe it was. But it hasn't been for a long time, as I demonstrated with a 20 year old link. And also as you yourself could discover with a cursory google.

[HansMustermann]

Originally Posted by Suddenly

Not using a word that translates to calling the adherents of a religion evil being waived off as "wokeness" couldn't be more on the nose.

Or it could be just the way they learned the word back then. E.g., in German it used to be the only way to say it before 1990. Muslim seems to have caught up in the meantime, but "moslem" is still in the Duden as a perfectly normal word.

It also seems to be not so clear cut to anyone who hasn't been looking for reasons to be offended on behalf of someone else, in a language you don't actually speak, that it actually means anything evil. There were actual interviews with actual Muslims on the street and pretty much it came up mostly that they prefer the way it's in Arabic, or that it sounds better. You'd think that if it actually meant "evil", you'd get a few more answers saying just that.

I'm also pretty sure that one of the actual Muslims at the previous company was pronouncing it that way.

Oh wait, except apparently it doesn't mean that, unless you replace a letter with another letter. Which is as stupid as taking offense at calling someone "married" because if you change just one phoneme it sounds like saying they're "marred".


Now personally I'm all, meh, if they want to be called Muslims, fine by me. I don't even need to know why.

But that eagerness to take offense even if you have to play stupid language games for it, and assume some evil intent as the default... yeah... that's the kind of problem some of us see with a certain subculture nowadays. You can call it "woke" or anything else, but that's the problem.

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by Darat

You are so far off the page I really don't know where to start.

It predates the internet by quite a few decades.

Ya needs to work on your comprehension, ducky. I'm not far off the page. I was spot on, saying you would have to show it was already in use rather than a bald assertion. You did so. Congratulations!

Quote:

I've just gone to the fount of all-knowledge(ish) to refresh my memory in case I was wrong and it is there in black and white - goes back to the 1930s.

Woke

"... Black American folk singer-songwriter Huddie Ledbetter, a.k.a. Lead Belly, uses the phrase near the end of the recording of his 1938 song "Scottsboro Boys", which tells the story of nine black teenagers accused of raping two white women, saying: "I advise everybody, be a little careful when they go along through there – best stay woke, keep their eyes open."[9][10] Aja Romano writes at Vox that this represents "Black Americans' need to be aware of racially motivated threats and the potential dangers of white America".[4] J. Saunders Redding recorded a comment from an African American United Mine Workers official in 1940, stating: "Let me tell you buddy. Waking up is a damn sight harder than going to sleep, but we'll stay woke up longer."[11]

By the mid-20th century, woke had come to mean "well-informed" or "aware",[12] especially in a political or cultural sense.[6] The Oxford English Dictionary traces the earliest such usage to a 1962 New York Times Magazine article titled "If You're Woke You Dig It" by African-American novelist William Melvin Kelley, describing the appropriation of Black slang by white beatniks.[6]

Woke had gained more political connotations by 1971 when the play Garvey Lives! by Barry Beckham included the line: "I been sleeping all my life. And now that Mr. Garvey done woke me up, I'm gon' stay woke. And I'm gon help him wake up other black folk."[13][14] Marcus Garvey had himself exhorted his early 20th century audiences, "Wake up Ethiopia! Wake up Africa!"[5] Romano describes this as "a call to global Black citizens to become more socially and politically conscious".[4] ..."

Great. So the expression was found in a few examples, and had the same meaning. "Mr. Garvey done woke me up, and I'm gon' stay woke" is certainly the same usage.

Interesting that one of the issues cited was a black guy bitching about beatnics culturally appropriating black speech. I guess we have to discuss if white folk can actually use "Woke"?

[Suddenly]

Originally Posted by HansMustermann

But that eagerness to take offense even if you have to play stupid language games for it, and assume some evil intent as the default... yeah... that's the kind of problem some of us see with a certain subculture nowadays. You can call it "woke" or anything else, but that's the problem.

People about whom this word is being used find it offensive and wish that other people stop using it. Most people stopped using it.

That's what you call "playing stupid language games." Which is you determining what should offend other people, and in general your opinion doesn't matter.

The ones eagerly taking offense are not the people asking the word not be used, it's the people who are imagining great personal harm because they might feel foolish if corrected.

[Suddenly]

Originally Posted by Thermal

Interesting that one of the issues cited was a black guy bitching about beatnics culturally appropriating black speech. I guess we have to discuss if white folk can actually use "Woke"?

If it makes you feel any better, have at it. Part of working through these things is that these conversations can be interesting to people who aren't waking up at night in terror of being canceled because they wore the wrong color socks and some sophomore at Oberlin once wrote a editorial about how those socks are offensive to the colorblind.

I mean, try not to get to "don't even think about using ranch dressing if you've never raised cattle" type stupid, but usually when people who don't at all care about cultural appropriation try to use it as a gotcha that's where it usually ends up.

[bruto]

Originally Posted by Brainster

Woke is essentially equivalent to sanctimonious. Note that several of the woke defenders around here have referred to their superior moral code.

I do think that is what many people who use the word mean, and it is, to my mind, a cheap and unpleasant sort of "wink wink nod not" way of accusing someone of something without having to be accountable for doing so. If its original meaning was otherwise, then it's more so.