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Old 8th January 2023, 06:07 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
“Young man”? So they are prosecuting him as a man now?
Prosecuting, you say. Only in you own mind, perhaps?
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Old 8th January 2023, 06:15 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
The time has come to ask the hard questions such as… how many doors did this school have?

Would a good child with a gun have stopped a bad one?

Is there a mental health crisis in America?

How can we push that to the agenda to distract from the problem of guns in society while also doing nothing about the problem we identify?

Is that a squirrel?
It also takes us to the scenario that if teachers were armed as many politicians and others seem to have put forward would she have shot the kid dead? Because that is why people want the teachers armed so they can "deal with" the criminal brandishing a gun in a school.
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Old 8th January 2023, 08:52 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
It also takes us to the scenario that if teachers were armed as many politicians and others seem to have put forward would she have shot the kid dead? Because that is why people want the teachers armed so they can "deal with" the criminal brandishing a gun in a school.
Well, not so fast. A second teacher could shoot the first teacher, preventing the first teacher from shooting the kid. Problem solved.

Or if the first teacher was particularly beloved, a third teacher could shoot the second teacher, and again -- problem solved.
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Old 8th January 2023, 08:54 AM   #44
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The BBC has an update on the teacher's condition plus more details on the shooting.
Quote:
The condition of a Virginia teacher left seriously injured when she was shot by a six-year-old pupil has shown signs of improvement, authorities say. Abby Zwerner suffered life-threatening injuries after she was shot with a handgun at Richneck Elementary School in the city of Newport News on Friday. Mayor Phillip Jones told the BBC that Ms Zwerner's recovery was "trending in a positive direction". But he added that she remained in a critical condition after the incident. BBC link
The parent of another child in the first grade said that after being shot, teacher Abby Zwerner's immediate response was to yell for the students to run from the classroom.

Meantime, police have not released any information as to how the child obtained the weapon. They have said the shooting followed an "altercation" and did not appear to be accidental.
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Old 8th January 2023, 09:03 AM   #45
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I saw an article, again I think on the BBC, that said her condition had been downgraded from critical to serious. The subtext is more optimistic than not.
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Old 8th January 2023, 09:03 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Yes it does

“Someone who is in custody or has been taken into custody has been arrested and is being kept in prison until they can be tried in a court.”
Not when used for children. As I suspect others have already made clear before I hit the button, "custody" in the case of a child does not mean prison. Parents are default custodians of a child, and when parents fail, others take temporary or permanent or joint custody. In divorce cases it's the common term for which parents are physically responsible for things like housing, feeding, and parental decisions.
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Old 8th January 2023, 09:06 AM   #47
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I remember reading about the way Norway treated children who killed (deliberately) when they were under the age of criminal responsibility - which I think is relatively high in Norway. It was all about trying to grow the kid into a responsible citizen and not at all about punishment. I don't think the results were any worse than the "string em up and throw away the key" systems.
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Old 8th January 2023, 10:00 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
In Scotland, a 6 year old taken into police custody does not mean they are now being held in a cell. It means they have been taken to a place of safety under emergency care, which is usually a foster or children's home and they are then in effect in the custody of the social work department.

From the original article "“The individual is a 6-year-old student,” Drew said. “We have been in contact with our commonwealth attorney and some other entities to help us best get services to this young man.” it would appear he got a ride in a police car to the station as other arrangements for his care were made.
Quite: in England it's more likely to be a local authority's secure accomodation, should such still exist. I also know of instances of CAMHS in-patient units being used, especially if there is a low (or higher) secure unit available (we had a lad, older than this one, admitted as an emergency overnight after taking a heavy object to someone's head one place I worked).
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Old 8th January 2023, 11:07 AM   #49
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Hopefully there will be news soon on the arrest of the person who was the owner of the gun.
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Old 8th January 2023, 12:04 PM   #50
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No one is going to state the obvious? Fine. I'll do it.

The Second Amendment *chords of angelic music plays in in the background* says the rights of the People to bear arms shall not be infringed. The 6 year old is a People. I assume the only issue is the government's intrusion to have a CCW permit?

A Good Toddler With a Gun would have shot the subject dead before he wounded the teacher. It's time we get realistic about relaxing concealed carry for kindergarteners. But I suppose our lefty Commies will have a problem with that, too. I remember when we were free. Make Recess Great Again!
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Old 8th January 2023, 12:14 PM   #51
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There was a lot of speculation in the thread about the handling of the child who did the shooting. A local newspaper, the Hampton Roads (Va.) Daily Press reported on this yesterday:
Quote:
The criminal justice system for juveniles in Virginia differs in many ways from that for adults. But when the child accused of committing a crime is only 6, the distinctions become even more pronounced. Young children charged with an offense as serious as a shooting can be ordered held at a juvenile detention facility, said Mario Lorello, a local defense lawyer and former Virginia Beach prosecutor who served on the office’s juvenile prosecution team for several years. But that’s unlikely for someone as young as 6, he said. A more probable option would be for prosecutors to ask a judge to place the child in the custody of the Department of Social Services, Lorello said. If the request is granted, social services would then decide the best housing choice under the circumstances. That could include keeping the child with their parents, placing them with another relative or putting them in foster care, he said. Daily Press link
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Old 8th January 2023, 01:58 PM   #52
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How many 'incidents' will it take before America realises it needs to have a real, in-depth discussion on guns?
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Old 8th January 2023, 02:06 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
A Good Toddler With a Gun would have shot the subject dead before he wounded the teacher. It's time we get realistic about relaxing concealed carry for kindergarteners. But I suppose our lefty Commies will have a problem with that, too. I remember when we were free. Make Recess Great Again!
Just think - only 4 years ago, this was parody:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 8th January 2023, 02:08 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King View Post
Quite: in England it's more likely to be a local authority's secure accomodation...
Ah but this case is not in England. Picture the 6 year old in the town jail in Rio Bravo, with Stumpy on guard in the rocking chair nursing his trusty shotgun lessn the kid's pa tries bustin' him out.
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Old 8th January 2023, 02:24 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
How many 'incidents' will it take before America realises it needs to have a real, in-depth discussion on guns?

Well one poster came into the thread just to try and mock me for a thread title I obviously did not create, but we did tackle the word "custody". We're getting there!
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Old 8th January 2023, 05:55 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by bobdroege7 View Post
Got her in the shoulder.

Good shot, no?

As to the custody question, he should be returned to his parents, no?
Well, they were thinking about sending him home with a note from his teacher, but there was a glitch.
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Old 9th January 2023, 01:42 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Well, they were thinking about sending him home with a note from his teacher, but there was a glitch.


Nice!
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Old 9th January 2023, 01:46 AM   #58
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We need 5cc of Thoughts &Prayers, stat!
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Old 9th January 2023, 03:36 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
We need 5cc of Thoughts &Prayers, stat!
Not strong enough, dilute it to 1/250th.
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Old 9th January 2023, 04:03 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
How many 'incidents' will it take before America realises it needs to have a real, in-depth discussion on guns?
If a whole class full of kindergartners getting murdered won't do it, I'd say it would have to be a very high number indeed.
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Old 9th January 2023, 04:12 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
If a whole class full of kindergartners getting murdered won't do it, I'd say it would have to be a very high number indeed.
Your avatar could be appropriate here, but it'd probably have to also say, "this is fine... But more guns would be helpful"
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Old 9th January 2023, 04:22 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
If a whole class full of kindergartners getting murdered won't do it, I'd say it would have to be a very high number indeed.
When there was little gun control change and indeed, instead there were conspiracy theories about Sandy Hook, for me, that was evidence that no shooting would cause the necessary demand and political will for a wholesale reform of gun control in the US.

That reform means removing guns from people unsuitable to have them and preventing them from getting more guns. That is how gun control works in the rest of the western world. Countries have made it difficult for people who should have guns, to get them, and easy to seize guns with those no longer suitable to have them. People with certain mental health problems, gangs, youths and certain criminal convictions find it very difficult to get a gun. That does not happen in the USA. It is easy for anyone to get a gun.

But, it also became clear, that not only was there a lack of will for change, there is also an inability to get guns under control. The problem is just too big. There are too many guns in the hands of too many unsuitable people, who will not easily give up those guns, for meaningful gun control to be possible.
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Old 9th January 2023, 06:16 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
It also takes us to the scenario that if teachers were armed as many politicians and others seem to have put forward would she have shot the kid dead? Because that is why people want the teachers armed so they can "deal with" the criminal brandishing a gun in a school.
The problem is that 6 yo children are not easy targets. They are small and move quickly. I would suggest all students chairs should be hooked up to tazers and the teachers can selectively disable the children with a panel of buttons.

I know it’s a bit of a controversial suggestions but as eliminating the handguns is not possible you have to be creative.
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Old 9th January 2023, 08:54 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
How many 'incidents' will it take before America realises it needs to have a real, in-depth discussion on guns?
Been there, done that.
Quote:
The poll by the University of Chicago Harris School of Public Policy and The Associated Press-NORC Center for Public Affairs Research shows 71% of Americans say gun laws should be stricter, including about half of Republicans, the vast majority of Democrats and a majority of those in gun-owning households. Associated Press news link
Quote:
Multiple gun-rights groups tell TIME they are ramping up their own efforts to oppose anything that would be viewed as gun control—by pressuring Republicans to stand firmly against the proposals, and, if needed, taking the Biden administration to court to prevent potential new laws from being enacted...Representatives with Gun Owners of America, the Second Amendment Foundation, and the National Shooting Sports Foundation (NSSF) strongly disagree, saying many—if not all—of the House proposals infringe on existing constitutional rights and judicial precedent.

Example - Raising the age for purchasing semi-automatic weapons may go against a recent decision by a federal appeal court to overturn a California ban on sales of semiautomatic rifles to adults younger than 21. Time magazine news link
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Old 9th January 2023, 09:38 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
When there was little gun control change and indeed, instead there were conspiracy theories about Sandy Hook, for me, that was evidence that no shooting would cause the necessary demand and political will for a wholesale reform of gun control in the US.

That reform means removing guns from people unsuitable to have them and preventing them from getting more guns. That is how gun control works in the rest of the western world. Countries have made it difficult for people who should have guns, to get them, and easy to seize guns with those no longer suitable to have them. People with certain mental health problems, gangs, youths and certain criminal convictions find it very difficult to get a gun. That does not happen in the USA. It is easy for anyone to get a gun.

But, it also became clear, that not only was there a lack of will for change, there is also an inability to get guns under control. The problem is just too big. There are too many guns in the hands of too many unsuitable people, who will not easily give up those guns, for meaningful gun control to be possible.
The problem is the intentional lack of any law enforcement agency to enforce gun laws.
If an American is convicted of a crime that invalidates their right to gun ownership the totality of the enforcement is a pinky swear that the felon will get rid of all of their guns (wink,) and definitely won’t buy any more guns on the private market (nudge and a giggle.)
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Old 9th January 2023, 11:52 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
When there was little gun control change and indeed, instead there were conspiracy theories about Sandy Hook, for me, that was evidence that no shooting would cause the necessary demand and political will for a wholesale reform of gun control in the US.

That reform means removing guns from people unsuitable to have them and preventing them from getting more guns. That is how gun control works in the rest of the western world. Countries have made it difficult for people who should have guns, to get them, and easy to seize guns with those no longer suitable to have them. People with certain mental health problems, gangs, youths and certain criminal convictions find it very difficult to get a gun. That does not happen in the USA. It is easy for anyone to get a gun.

But, it also became clear, that not only was there a lack of will for change, there is also an inability to get guns under control. The problem is just too big. There are too many guns in the hands of too many unsuitable people, who will not easily give up those guns, for meaningful gun control to be possible.
And further than this, even when those states where there has been the will to make changes towards gun control, SCOTUS has stamped down hard on them, and on any attempts to make those changes because it has re-interpreted 2A by repeatedly dismissing the prefatory clause to result in a position that is so far from the original intent of the authors so as to be almost unrecognizable.
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Old 9th January 2023, 12:12 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
The time has come to ask the hard questions such as… how many doors did this school have?

Would a good child with a gun have stopped a bad one?

Is there a mental health crisis in America?

How can we push that to the agenda to distract from the problem of guns in society while also doing nothing about the problem we identify?

Is that a squirrel?
We have been taught that an armed society is a polite society.

Therefore, it seems obvious that the teacher must have been rude to the kid, and had it coming.

Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Your avatar could be appropriate here, but it'd probably have to also say, "this is fine... But more guns would be helpful"
More guns. Guns for everyone, everywhere, forever. That's the only possible solution. All else goes against God.
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Old 9th January 2023, 12:13 PM   #68
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This was obviously gang on gang violence that the librul woke order is just calling "A school shooting" to pad their numbers to advance their agenda.
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Old 9th January 2023, 12:37 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
How many 'incidents' will it take before America realises it needs to have a real, in-depth discussion on guns?
More than 30,000 gun deaths per year, year on year, hasn't made a whit of difference so far.

A conclusion I can draw is Putin does not need to invade the USA. He only needs to promote gun rights, and Americans will kill themselves in plague numbers.
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Old 9th January 2023, 12:52 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
More than 30,000 gun deaths per year, year on year, hasn't made a whit of difference so far.

A conclusion I can draw is Putin does not need to invade the USA. He only needs to promote gun rights, and Americans will kill themselves in plague numbers.
There are gun deaths in Australia too, but the difference is that gun laws are enforced. If police visit gun owners, either a visit to check on firearm safety, or for another reason and they know it’s a gun owner, they will check the gun safe. If the gun is not locked away or the safe not locked, goodbye gun.
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Old 9th January 2023, 02:56 PM   #71
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American claim they need their guns to remain free. In fact Americans are prisoners to and of their guns.
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Old 9th January 2023, 03:40 PM   #72
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Of course an armed society is a polite society. Unless you're sure you can outdraw your opponent and all his friends, you're going to be circumspect if not downright obsequious. Genuine respect or fellowship is something else.

"Polite society" advocates want us to be prisoners, not so much of our own guns, but of theirs.
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Old 9th January 2023, 03:53 PM   #73
crescent
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Of course an armed society is a polite society. Unless you're sure you can outdraw your opponent and all his friends and six-year old children, you're going to be circumspect if not downright obsequious. Genuine respect or fellowship is something else.

"Polite society" advocates want us to be prisoners, not so much of our own guns, but of theirs and of six-year old children.
You are right. But I am immature so I had to add to it anyway.
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Old 9th January 2023, 06:39 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
When there was little gun control change and indeed, instead there were conspiracy theories about Sandy Hook, for me, that was evidence that no shooting would cause the necessary demand and political will for a wholesale reform of gun control in the US.
The gun-nuts' reaction to Sandy Hook was really a double-whammy; it effectively proved, to my mind, that gun-advocates understand innately that gun control/disarmament is the sensible and logical response to an event like Sandy Hook and the only way that so many of them felt they could argue against that was to de-legitimize the event itself and insist it be ignored.
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Old 10th January 2023, 01:25 AM   #75
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Update on the story:
Abby Zwerner: Six-year-old who shot his teacher used mother's gun

Quote:
A six-year-old child used his mother's legally purchased handgun to shoot his teacher at a US school, police say.

In a news conference on Monday, police in Virginia said the child brought the pistol to school in his backpack.

The child intentionally shot his teacher, Abigail 'Abby' Zwerner, during class on Friday. Police say she managed to escort her students to safety before calling for help for herself.

Ms Zwerner, 25, remains in hospital in a stable condition.
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Old 10th January 2023, 01:35 AM   #76
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The gun was apparently legitimately owned by the Child's mother. Something called a Taurus which I thought was a car. The teacher was shot when trying to disarm / confiscate the gun. She was shot through her hand into her upper chest, which might fit with her trying to take the gun.

Virginia apparently has no specific laws on storage of firearms. The mother and / or father maybe guilty of a class 1 misdemeanour for allowing the child access to a loaded gun. The penalty would be confinement in jail for not more than twelve months and a fine of not more than $2,500, either or both.
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Old 10th January 2023, 01:38 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I think it may be hard to know what a six year old child's intention were. In part because of how much they would really understand the consequences of any actions.
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Old 10th January 2023, 02:44 AM   #78
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This is what is meant by taking a 6 year old into custody

https://news.sky.com/story/boy-6-who...e-say-12783503

"...police officers arrived and escorted him out of the building and into a police car.
The child has been held at a medical facility since an emergency custody order and temporary detention order were issued on Friday, Mr Drew said."

He gets a ride in a police car, whilst a place of safety, which is not a police or prison cell, is found, which in this case is a medical facility, during which the paperwork approving the detention is drawn up. That is just like the procedure in the UK.
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Old 10th January 2023, 03:03 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
This is what is meant by taking a 6 year old into custody

https://news.sky.com/story/boy-6-who...e-say-12783503

"...police officers arrived and escorted him out of the building and into a police car.
The child has been held at a medical facility since an emergency custody order and temporary detention order were issued on Friday, Mr Drew said."

He gets a ride in a police car, whilst a place of safety, which is not a police or prison cell, is found, which in this case is a medical facility, during which the paperwork approving the detention is drawn up. That is just like the procedure in the UK.
Well I’m pleased to hear that. But US authorities (like Border Control) are not shy about confining young children in cages, so my question about the custody he was subject to was not ridiculous.
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Old 10th January 2023, 03:34 AM   #80
Nessie
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Well I’m pleased to hear that. But US authorities (like Border Control) are not shy about confining young children in cages, so my question about the custody he was subject to was not ridiculous.
You originally said "...but it’s reported that the child is in custody. I didn’t think that a child under the age of criminal responsibility could even be detained."

Maybe you were thinking more of how could they be detained and the practicalities of that, as you were thinking of kids being kept in cages, rather than how you worded it, by questioning whether they can be detained?

The police in the UK and I presume the USA, can literally seize a child and remove them to a place of safety and one of the reasons for doing so is if that child has committed a serious crime, along with they are with a parent who has committed a serious crime or because of parental neglect that is life-threatening.

The procedure is designed to be fast, a signature on a form and a phone call to the place of safety.
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