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Old 7th March 2019, 07:48 PM   #3721
William Parcher
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Joe, you should start a straw man factory. Assembly line style.
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Old 7th March 2019, 08:01 PM   #3722
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Joe, you should start a straw man factory. Assembly line style.
Joe is not the poster in this thread constructing strawmen.

You and a couple of others must be running out of straw at this point though...
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Old 7th March 2019, 08:24 PM   #3723
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
Joe is not the poster in this thread constructing strawmen.

You and a couple of others must be running out of straw at this point though...
Straw men coming out of Joe's Straw Man Factory...


Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
fan fiction about how it's not the cop's fault. Funny that.
Who the hell is saying that the killing of Jean is not Guyger's fault? This is a straw man.

Quote:
Writing 90 pages of "The defense can just like totes just say this and she's gonna walk LOLZ"
There aren't 90 pages here saying that Guyger will be acquitted. With laughter as well? This is a straw man.
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Old 8th March 2019, 12:07 AM   #3724
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
For reference today a was the first time in 30 years a police officer was convicted of an unlawful killing in the state of Florida.
Shows how good their police officers are, just one bad apple in 30 years!
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Old 8th March 2019, 06:01 AM   #3725
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
To me, you have nicely described manslaughter, which the Texas Rangers originally wanted to charge, and which seems to me to fit the case.

Yet she is charged with murder.
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
That's right and it's why the appropriate charge is negligent homicide/manslaughter.

But instead she's been charged with murder.

Do we know that the jury cannot find her guilty of a lesser charge?
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Old 8th March 2019, 06:09 AM   #3726
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Then I need help understanding a murder charge.

In my mind, a murder charge would mean that she decided to kill him knowing that he is an innocent man in his own home and isn't an intruder in her home.
If I sincerely believe that every otherhuman is a villain out to get me am I justified in committing genocide?
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Old 8th March 2019, 06:24 AM   #3727
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
If I sincerely believe that every otherhuman is a villain out to get me am I justified in committing genocide?
You may appeal to the "not guilty by reason of insanity" defense.

Holding that belief may qualify.
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Old 8th March 2019, 08:03 AM   #3728
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
If I sincerely believe that every otherhuman is a villain out to get me am I justified in committing genocide?
What?
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Old 8th March 2019, 08:06 AM   #3729
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Do we know that the jury cannot find her guilty of a lesser charge?
I don't know.

I can't see her escaping a conviction for reckless homicide/negligent homicide/manslaughter or whatever they call the charge that is lesser than murder.

Although I have been there, I do not know or fully understand The Republic of Texas.
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Old 8th March 2019, 08:51 AM   #3730
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I don't know.

I can't see her escaping a conviction for reckless homicide/negligent homicide/manslaughter or whatever they call the charge that is lesser than murder.
....[/i].

The differences in the crimes have been explained above. She intended to kill him (the presumption when you deliberately shoot someone); it was not an accident. That's what makes it murder.
Quote:
Murder generally means that the accused is charged with intentionally or knowingly killing another person. The definition for murder in Texas is broader than that, and it includes deaths that were caused unintentionally, where the accused acted with the intent to cause serious bodily injury and committed an act that was clearly dangerous to the life of another. Murder can also be charged against a person who is committing a felony commits an act that is clearly dangerous to human life and causes a death.
https://www.versustexas.com/murder/
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Old 8th March 2019, 08:51 AM   #3731
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
What?
I said: If I sincerely believe that every otherhuman is a villain out to get me am I justified in committing genocide?
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Old 8th March 2019, 09:20 AM   #3732
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I said: If I sincerely believe that every otherhuman is a villain out to get me am I justified in committing genocide?
What?
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Old 8th March 2019, 09:42 AM   #3733
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
What?
Which part of the question do you need help with?
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Old 8th March 2019, 09:49 AM   #3734
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Which part of the question do you need help with?
I'm not actually sure. I don't understand the question. Maybe a rephrasing will help me.

I see the word genocide so I wonder if it's a Hitler question but I don't know really.
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Old 8th March 2019, 09:53 AM   #3735
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Maybe a rephrasing will help me.
Am I justified in committing genocide, assuming that I sincerely believe that every human on earth is a genuine threat to me?
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Old 8th March 2019, 10:04 AM   #3736
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Do we know that the jury cannot find her guilty of a lesser charge?
I believe that may be available for the defense to argue before jury instructions.
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Old 8th March 2019, 10:35 AM   #3737
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Am I justified in committing genocide...
Never.

I didn't focus on the rest of this question because whatever it says or asks doesn't matter.
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Old 8th March 2019, 01:21 PM   #3738
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Am I justified in committing genocide, assuming that I sincerely believe that every human on earth is a genuine threat to me?
Are you going with the dictionary defenition of "justified"?
Or are you asking if it is legal in Texas to do so?

In both cases the answer is obviously no. For different reasons.
What is the point that is supposed to illustrate?
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Old 8th March 2019, 01:54 PM   #3739
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
If I sincerely believe that every otherhuman is a villain out to get me am I justified in committing genocide?
I would say that yes you are. I would also say that if you tried to act on that belief, everyone else would be justified in turning it into a self-fulfilling prophecy.

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Old 8th March 2019, 03:20 PM   #3740
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
The differences in the crimes have been explained above. She intended to kill him (the presumption when you deliberately shoot someone); it was not an accident. That's what makes it murder.

https://www.versustexas.com/murder/
Okay murder means intended to kill or intended to shoot (same thing right?) and not an accidental shooting like a dropped gun going off or something like that.

But it's really confusing. The DPD and the Texas Rangers originally had her charged with not murder, which apparently means an accidental discharge... twice. That doesn't make any sense at all. It would have been blatantly obvious that it was never two accidental firearm discharges.

Then it takes a whole two days for the Grand Jury to decide that it wasn't really about two accidental discharges?

I'm having a WTF moment and your explanation isn't helping. Why did it take so long to bring a murder charge when Guyger herself said that she shot twice intentionally?
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Old 8th March 2019, 04:28 PM   #3741
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
.....
I'm having a WTF moment and your explanation isn't helping. Why did it take so long to bring a murder charge when Guyger herself said that she shot twice intentionally?
What don't you understand? The police don't have the final word. The prosecutor decides whether and how to charge someone. The cops had to charge her with something just to arrest her. If they had just charged her with trespassing, it wouldn't have had anything to do with the prosecutor's decision later. If the police had charged her with murder, and the prosecutor had said "I think I can only prove manslaughter" (or the equivalent), would you still be confused?

Do you think decisions made at the moment of the crime are cast in stone? That's not the way the system works.
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Old 8th March 2019, 04:35 PM   #3742
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It was never two accidental discharges. Therefore a murder charge is a simple foolproof charge.

That is unless the lesser charge of homicide/manslaughter actually can include non-accidental discharges.

Come to think of it, if she beats the murder charge then the lesser charge can't apply at all because it's only for when a gun goes off by accident.

See why my confusion isn't going away?
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Old 9th March 2019, 12:57 AM   #3743
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I’ll try to address a number of questions in one post.

The correct charge is murder. In Texas, a person commits murder if he or she “intentionally or knowingly causes the death of an individual”.

A person who is guilty of any type of criminal homicide is also guilty of lesser included charges. For example, a person who intentionally kills an individual also recklessly causes the death of an individual. A person guilty of capital murder is guilty of murder. A person guilty of murder is also guilty of manslaughter. A person guilty of manslaughter is also guilty of criminally negligent homicide. (this is established in Texas law as “Proof of a higher degree of culpability than that charged constitutes proof of the culpability charged.”) Of course, a person is only convicted of one of those crimes for a single incident.

With a charge of murder, the jury could find Guyger guilty of a lesser included charge such as manslaughter or criminally negligent homicide. They went with a charge where they could establish culpability without question in order to get an warrant without complications.

I suspect the Rangers got a warrant for manslaughter instead of murder because at that point in the investigation there may have been some questions regarding intent that they didn’t have answers for.

If Guyger is convicted of murder, the question then is whether it is a first or second degree felony. I don’t think Guyger would qualify for second degree. That would mean she was “under the immediate influence of sudden passion arising from an adequate cause”. Adequate cause means “anger, rage, resentment, or terror”. However, sudden passion means “caused by and arising out of provocation by the individual killed”. Guyger was not provoked by Jean.

Some jurisdictions have a mitigating factor for “imperfect self-defense”. That means the person was acting in self-defense but their assessment of the situation was unreasonable or not all of the conditions required for the level of self-defense were met. Texas does not have such a law (as far as I am aware). But that may be included in sentencing guidelines and the court would likely take that into consideration.

Because Guyger intentionally killed someone, she is charged with murder. It is up to her to provide a defense. The mistake of going to the wrong apartment is not a defense to murder because it does not negate her culpability. Whether or not she believed she was in her own apartment (and even whether or not she was actually in her own apartment) does not change the fact that she intentionally killed someone.

It is likely Guyger will claim self-defense. This is where the mistake of fact comes in. A person cannot claim self-defense if they are engaged in criminal activity. Guyger illegally entered Jean’s apartment. However, if she made a mistake of fact and believed she was going into her own apartment, that can negate that criminal act and entitle her to a claim of self-defense.

I don’t think the castle doctrine applies here. The law says it applies when someone enters a person’s “occupied habitation”. That didn’t happen here. Guyger was not occupying her apartment (or even what she believed was her apartment) when someone entered. It appears to me that this law is specifically worded this way to exclude the castle doctrine from situations like this.

Guyger can still claim self-defense. She would have to demonstrate that she had reason to believe that deadly force was necessary. She would have to establish that she reasonably believed Jean was attempting to use unlawfully deadly force. We don’t know much about what happened in the apartment. We know Jean was unarmed. Maybe there was something that established a reasonable belief. Maybe not.

In terms of a trial, Guyger likely has a good chance. She is the only living witness. She’s a cop. She’s was previously involved in a fatal shooting. She’s trained on when deadly force can be used. She would know what to say and what not to say. It will likely come down to. “I thought he was reaching for a gun.”

If the self-dense claim holds, Guyger could still be convicted of a lesser included charge of manslaughter or criminally negligent homicide. Manslaughter (or criminally negligent homicide) doesn’t necessarily mean it was an accident, although that is usually the case. Manslaughter means the person acted recklessly, while criminally negligent homicide obviously means the person acted with negligence. The difference between reckless and negligent is that someone is reckless if they know there is a risk, while negligent means they ought to know there is a risk.

Self-defense would defend against the actual shooting. For manslaughter or criminally negligent homicide we would look to the actions before the shooting that created the “substantial and unjustifiable risk” of circumstances where a death would occur. That means going to the wrong apartment and giving orders to Jean.

Manslaughter would not apply because reckless would mean she was “aware of but consciously disregards” the risk of circumstances. She was not aware that she was going into the wrong apartment.

However, criminally negligent homicide could apply if we say that she ought to have been aware of the risk she was creating. The risk would have to be such that “failure to perceive it constitutes a gross deviation from the standard of care that an ordinary person would exercise”. I think there is a good argument that that is the case in this case.
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Old 16th March 2019, 06:06 AM   #3744
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Time card, police training records ordered for Amber Guyger's court hearing

Originally Posted by Fox 4 News
The fired Dallas police officer charged with murdering her upstairs neighbor is scheduled to appear in court again Monday.

The Dallas County District Attorney’s Office issued subpoenas for two witnesses in the Amber Guyger investigation.

One is a lieutenant who handled Guyger's time card for the pay period before the shooting. That request likely deals with Guyger's work hours and overtime.

The other witness handles police training records and will be asked to describe courses Guyger took in the academy for use of force, arrest and seizure and de-escalation techniques...
http://www.fox4news.com/news/time-ca...-court-hearing
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Old 16th March 2019, 01:42 PM   #3745
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I said: If I sincerely believe that every otherhuman is a villain out to get me am I justified in committing genocide?

If you set out to commit genocide then you would not be justified. If you set out to kill every single person who was out to get you, which just so happened to be every other person on the planet, then that would be fine. The end result is the same but one is a hate crime I think maybe sorta. But who would prosecute you if you succeeded? I say go for it.

Anyways, weird case. I don't know what to think or say about the shooting at this juncture. At this juuuncture. Not gonna do it! Not goa d'it! Nat gaaaa daat!
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Old 16th March 2019, 03:50 PM   #3746
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
If you set out to commit genocide then you would not be justified. If you set out to kill every single person who was out to get you, which just so happened to be every other person on the planet, then that would be fine. The end result is the same but one is a hate crime I think maybe sorta. But who would prosecute you if you succeeded? I say go for it.

Anyways, weird case. I don't know what to think or say about the shooting at this juncture. At this juuuncture. Not gonna do it! Not goa d'it! Nat gaaaa daat!
I suppose, but I'm not sure if you gain much by the justification, because I think if you did feel that way you would be seriously crazy and an immediate mortal danger to everyone, and I think there would be little argument against your being stopped at any price. The argument of insane justification might be enough to get you a life of institutional incarceration if you survive long enough to get to trial, but it's not enough for an acquittal.
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Old 16th March 2019, 06:08 PM   #3747
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
So her mitigation argument to get it down to 2nd degree will probably be the "mistake of fact" line, and that anyone would be in terror if they believed an intruder was in their home.
Well, that´s the thing: it´s simply a matter of the cops wanting to eat their cake and have it too.

She´s supposedly and assumed to be a trained and experienced police officer and not just some Joe Blow who stumbles across an intruder.
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Old 16th March 2019, 10:50 PM   #3748
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
If I sincerely believe that every otherhuman is a villain out to get me am I justified in committing genocide?
I think "justified" is the wrong word. There is a legal difference between justification and excuse. There is also a difference between an excuse and an exculpation (such as a mistake of fact).

What you describe would not be justified or exculpatory, but would be excusable against criminal responsibility through a defense of insanity. That would mean you would be detained in a mental health facility until it is determined that you are no longer a threat to yourself or society.
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Old 18th March 2019, 11:52 AM   #3749
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The time cards could mean a couple of things.

They may, depending on what there is, show that Guyger's doctors warned the DPD that she had sleep deprivation, which has caused sleep disorders. If the DPD knowingly scheduled her to work overtime, despite warnings, this could be bad. However it is more likely that they will try to show DPD ignoring union negotiated work limits.

The DPD could be held liable for the damages.
https://ac.els-cdn.com/S001236921830...9c098421bc3a22

Quote:
An employer may be held vicariously liable for the acts
of an employee that are performed as part of the
employee’s duties as per the legal doctrine of respondeat
superior (let the master answer).
They could also cite a blackout defense. Since she would be considered unconscious from the parking garage.
Quote:
The standard common law test of criminal liability is expressed by the
Latin phrase actus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea (the
act does not make a person guilty unless the mind is also
guilty). The guilty mental state must be present at the
time of the action for criminal liability. This requires the
act to have occurred in a conscious state, but in cases of
sleepiness-related accidents, can be extended to include
actions that begin in an unconscious state.
They cannot find her guilty if she can be shown to be in an unconscious state.

If the defense employs a sleep expert, that can portray to the judge or jury, that automatic behavior, is a state of sleep, and can be triggered by overwork, then I don't see how they will be able to find her guilty.
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Old 18th March 2019, 11:59 AM   #3750
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
Well, that´s the thing: it´s simply a matter of the cops wanting to eat their cake and have it too.

She´s supposedly and assumed to be a trained and experienced police officer and not just some Joe Blow who stumbles across an intruder.
Exactly cops are always justified in panicking and opening fire, see the philando castile case.

We hold the general public to much higher standards than the police because we know how easily spooked and violent they are.
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Old 18th March 2019, 12:01 PM   #3751
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Man people, really, really, really want there to be a "It's not murder if you're tired (and the cop is white and the guy black but we most not notice such things)" legal precedent set.
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Old 18th March 2019, 12:02 PM   #3752
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Man people, really, really, really want a "It's not murder if you're tired (and the cop is white and the guy black but we most not notice such things)" legal precedent to be set.
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Old 18th March 2019, 12:03 PM   #3753
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
What you describe would not be justified or exculpatory, but would be excusable against criminal responsibility through a defense of insanity.
That's not what I'm describing. I'm asking whether some of the mens rea supporters here would think that someone who deeply and honestly believes that the entire human race is a threat to them and that they need to kill all of them to protect their own life would be justified in acting out on their beliefs.

I mean, clearly the answer is no, so why would it be different in the case under discussion?
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Old 18th March 2019, 12:48 PM   #3754
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Man people, really, really, really want there to be a "It's not murder if you're tired (and the cop is white and the guy black but we most not notice such things)" legal precedent set.
Yea pretty much. I mean shooting an innocent bystander because you meant to shoot a tard with a toy truck is legal so why not this?
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Old 18th March 2019, 01:01 PM   #3755
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Am I justified in committing genocide, assuming that I sincerely believe that every human on earth is a genuine threat to me?
No, and No.

There is no means for every other human on earth to present an immediate threat to life and limb - NGI plea yes, self defense assertion no.
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Old 18th March 2019, 01:05 PM   #3756
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
There is no means for every other human on earth to present an immediate threat to life and limb - NGI plea yes, self defense assertion no.
Okay? This thread proves that obviously doesn't matter.

If "sitting at home literally doing nothing" can still get you two to the center mass and have people lining up to write a Lord of the Rings length epic about how your defense team is going to prove you were a little tired and therefore should (oh I'm sorry totally not saying she should, just that she could, wink, wink) walk no "Oh but they aren't a threat" gets to be put on the table. That's gone.

You don't have to prove a threat, just that you just thought they were a threat. That's the standard.
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Old 18th March 2019, 01:05 PM   #3757
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
No, and No.

There is no means for every other human on earth to present an immediate threat to life and limb
I can't speak for Belz... but when there's a global civilization bent on my destruction, I'd prefer to get started on my counter-attack *before* they get started on their murderous program.
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Old 18th March 2019, 05:06 PM   #3758
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I can't speak for Belz... but when there's a global civilization bent on my destruction, I'd prefer to get started on my counter-attack *before* they get started on their murderous program.

Good thing for you that there isn't much chance of a global civilization any time in the foreseeable future.

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Old 19th March 2019, 10:41 AM   #3759
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Man people, really, really, really want there to be a "It's not murder if you're tired (and the cop is white and the guy black but we most not notice such things)" legal precedent set.
yeah. that's pretty f'ed up. hope the prosecution doesn't go along with it.
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Old 19th March 2019, 10:42 AM   #3760
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
No, and No.

There is no means for every other human on earth to present an immediate threat to life and limb - NGI plea yes, self defense assertion no.
Ok so we agree that an unreasonable expectation of harm is not a good defense, right?

So why would it work in the policewoman's defense?
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