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Old 7th March 2019, 09:12 PM   #361
novaphile
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Just like in the USA, it's hard when the two major parties are both right wing.
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Old 7th March 2019, 09:16 PM   #362
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It is, however, about the ways in which compulsory voting is superior to voluntary voting. And most recently, it is about how compulsory voting leads to better outcomes than voluntary voting.

But as we can see from the example of "offshore processing of refugees", this isn't always the case.
No-one has claimed that compulsory voting always results in good policy. What we're claiming is that it results in better, fairer, and more inclusive elections.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Wouldn't it be nice for you, though, if we could have a thread about how awesome Australia is in the abstract, without being allowed to examine actual implementations in reality?
Wouldn't it be nice for you, though, if you actually make arguments that address the claims rather than making **** up?
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Old 7th March 2019, 09:22 PM   #363
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I wonder if theprestige even read the two articles I posted. What am I talking about? Of course he didn't.
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Old 7th March 2019, 09:31 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Australia is a representative democracy with compulsory voting. It's hard to imagine how those camps could be the result of anything other than the votes compelled by law in Australia.

But whatever they're the result of, it's obvious that compulsory voting hasn't saved you from them.
Oh this is too ridiculous for words. Your voting system produced President Trump. So it is a stupid system by definition, right?
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Old 7th March 2019, 09:36 PM   #365
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Oh this is too ridiculous for words. Your voting system produced President Trump. So it is a stupid system by definition, right?
Now that, we can all agree on.

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Old 7th March 2019, 10:06 PM   #366
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Australia is a representative democracy with compulsory voting. It's hard to imagine how those camps could be the result of anything other than the votes compelled by law in Australia.

But whatever they're the result of, it's obvious that compulsory voting hasn't saved you from them.
As I asked previously: What makes you think they are linked? Voting gets you a government that comes with a set of policies that are a mix of good and bad. You get to vote on the package, not the line-by-line items. Offshore processing was one of those policies that has gone rotten and become a stinky mess for both parties here.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It is, however, about the ways in which compulsory voting is superior to voluntary voting. And most recently, it is about how compulsory voting leads to better outcomes than voluntary voting.

But as we can see from the example of "offshore processing of refugees", this isn't always the case.

Wouldn't it be nice for you, though, if we could have a thread about how awesome Australia is in the abstract, without being allowed to examine actual implementations in reality?
Well, let's look at it, shall we? We have offshore processing of refugees, a policy that is now irradiated troll-***** for all political parties.

Our current government has been trying to say it is good and to make it work...and has failed abjectly because the person in charge is a ****-wit Brussels sprout.

However if it was voluntary voting, there's a high probability this policy would continue. Because, like happens in the USA, if it is voluntary then the turnout is a lot lower, and there are still a bunch of sad people here who actually like Mr Brussels Sprout putting all brown Muslims in hell-holes, not just refugees, and would vote for him solely to keep that specific policy in place regardless of anything else. Fine people on both sides, don't you know.

But the government WILL be voted out in the very near future based on this plus a myriad of other shortcomings. They will be voted out because ALL of the Australian voters will be letting them know because mandatory voting means about 95% of us will vote, not just the sad troll bigots.
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Last edited by Norman Alexander; 7th March 2019 at 10:07 PM.
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Old 7th March 2019, 10:10 PM   #367
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Incidentally, you need to be careful to say "offshore detention" as opposed to "offshore processing". Words matter. I've assumed (possibly mistakenly) that you meant the former. The latter is actually a potential solution.
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Old 7th March 2019, 10:16 PM   #368
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Incidentally, you need to be careful to say "offshore detention" as opposed to "offshore processing". Words matter. I've assumed (possibly mistakenly) that you meant the former. The latter is actually a potential solution.
To be fair, I was the first one to use the phrase "offshore processing", and your point is well-taken.
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Old 7th March 2019, 11:35 PM   #369
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Just like in America, mutatis mutandi. How many election cycles has it been in Australia, since "offshore processing of refugees" first became policy?
The problem has nothing to do with the voting system. The actual reason for offshore detention camps is the fact that many Australians are racists. Politicians from all the major parties must not upset these racists or they may be voted out of office. It would not matter what voting system we have.

Remember between 1901 - 1972 Australia had the White Australia policy.
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Old 8th March 2019, 03:38 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Australia is a representative democracy with compulsory voting. It's hard to imagine how those camps could be the result of anything other than the votes compelled by law in Australia.

But whatever they're the result of, it's obvious that compulsory voting hasn't saved you from them.
In order to say that the camps are the result of compulsory voting, it needs to be the case that in the absence of compulsory voting, the camps wouldn't exist.

I find that highly unlikely.
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Old 8th March 2019, 05:15 PM   #371
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
In order to say that the camps are the result of compulsory voting, it needs to be the case that in the absence of compulsory voting, the camps wouldn't exist.

I find that highly unlikely.
I would like to point out that America doesn't have compulsory voting, and also locks up refugees.

I think this shows that the connection theprestige is desperately trying to make is spurious.
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Old 9th March 2019, 06:31 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It is, however, about the ways in which compulsory voting is superior to voluntary voting. And most recently, it is about how compulsory voting leads to better outcomes than voluntary voting.

But as we can see from the example of "offshore processing of refugees", this isn't always the case.

Wouldn't it be nice for you, though, if we could have a thread about how awesome Australia is in the abstract, without being allowed to examine actual implementations in reality?
I need to point out that there's a lot more difference between voting in the USA and Australia than merely compulsory vs. voluntary. If you want to see the effect of the latter, compare countries that differ only in that aspect. Say, like Germany (which does NOT have compulsory voting) with Australia or Belgium.

My first gut instinct is that the effects of compulsory vs. voluntary are not very high compared to other differences in voting.
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Old 10th March 2019, 06:07 PM   #373
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Originally Posted by elgarak View Post
I need to point out that there's a lot more difference between voting in the USA and Australia than merely compulsory vs. voluntary. If you want to see the effect of the latter, compare countries that differ only in that aspect. Say, like Germany (which does NOT have compulsory voting) with Australia or Belgium.

My first gut instinct is that the effects of compulsory vs. voluntary are not very high compared to other differences in voting.
Well obviously the biggest difference is in the rate of voter turnout, which in Australia (as has been pointed out) is around 90% of the adult population submitting a countable vote. Compulsory voting surveys a larger proportion of the population of a country.
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Old 11th March 2019, 01:10 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Well obviously the biggest difference is in the rate of voter turnout, which in Australia (as has been pointed out) is around 90% of the adult population submitting a countable vote. Compulsory voting surveys a larger proportion of the population of a country.
I think that elgarak is referring to America's FPTP and WTA electoral college system. Both are major disincentives to people who don't wish to vote for the majority candidate and even if voting were compulsory, they wouldn't produce a democratic result.
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Old 11th March 2019, 05:33 AM   #375
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I suspect that the demographics of those that don't vote leans Democratic Party. So compulsory voting will give the Dems a higher percentage of increase than letting illegals vote.

So, what do the two parties say about compulsory voting? Anybody ever hear of a poll "among those who have no intention of voting,....." ?
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Old 11th March 2019, 05:47 PM   #376
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I think that elgarak is referring to America's FPTP and WTA electoral college system. Both are major disincentives to people who don't wish to vote for the majority candidate and even if voting were compulsory, they wouldn't produce a democratic result.
Yes, that's a fair point.

If I was Founding Fathering a country, and I wanted it to look democratic but actually not be, America would be a great model. I think that if they wanted to really fix their system, they'd have to throw out pretty much everything from the Constitution down, and rebuild the lot. Which of course is impractical, and could never really be done, so the best they can do is patch it up with fair redistricting and campaign finance reform and so forth.
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Old 11th March 2019, 07:22 PM   #377
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I think that if they wanted to really fix their system, they'd have to throw out pretty much everything from the Constitution down, and rebuild the lot.
You don't have to go that far. The problem of rogue states disenfranchising voters and gerrymandering districts would disappear if the federal government had the authority to make laws about elections as it is in Australia.
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Old 11th March 2019, 08:34 PM   #378
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You don't have to go that far. The problem of rogue states disenfranchising voters and gerrymandering districts would disappear if the federal government had the authority to make laws about elections as it is in Australia.
GAH!! States Rights! Federal overreach!! They dun come fer owr gunz!! *SPIT! and dang*

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Old 11th March 2019, 08:36 PM   #379
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Note to our American friends. You don't always come across like this to us, but some of you do sometimes.
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Old 11th April 2019, 10:03 PM   #380
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So an election has been called. Government has "gone into Caretaker" which essentially means that the politicians stop governing and start campaigning. The campaign will last until election day, and then the new government will take over, and not have to worry about campaigning until right before the next election.

That's the other nice thing about Australian elections. Campaigns are limited. This campaign is going to be a nasty one, but it least it doesn't go on all year.
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