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Old 14th March 2019, 05:16 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
New York Times has a headline saying that Santa Anita will be banning drugs and whips. I haven't read the article.
That's fine for the fans - but what about the problem with horse deaths?
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Old 14th March 2019, 05:22 PM   #42
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Old 14th March 2019, 05:34 PM   #43
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Reports now that today at Santa Anita a horse doing a workout broke both front legs.
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Old 14th March 2019, 07:28 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Reports now that today at Santa Anita a horse doing a workout broke both front legs.
Appears to be true: https://www.detroitnews.com/story/sp...rack/39202209/

That really would tend to indicate the track has some problem nobody's identified.

I wonder what the death rate on turf v dirt is. I'll try to find some data.
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Old 14th March 2019, 07:40 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I wonder what the death rate on turf v dirt is. I'll try to find some data.
I suspect turf has a lower break-down rate. Then again, turf moves to dirt (in NA, at least) when conditions are not that good.
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Old 14th March 2019, 10:52 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by jsfisher View Post
I suspect turf has a lower break-down rate. Then again, turf moves to dirt (in NA, at least) when conditions are not that good.
You just won a chocolate fish - dirt is indeed worse than turf, but both are inferior to synthetic for safety.

10 years old, but I doubt much has changed: https://aaep.org/sites/default/files...0110000405.pdf
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Old 15th March 2019, 07:08 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I don't see anything in the way of cruelty involved in the sport. For starters, the horse weighs roughly 10 times as much as the jockey, so if it wants to, it can throw him/her off and kick them to death. They're also a lot smarter than people give them credit for and love the competition. (well, the good ones do, anyway)

Racing worldwide has very strict rules about being hit with the whip, or jigger use, and 101 other things that might happen under the umbrella of cruelty.

Compared to farming of any kind, horse racing is pretty mild. Sure, there are bad eggs, but there are bad eggs everywhere. Horse people generally have an extreme love of horses and would rather cut their arm off than hurt one.



Each to their own.

I imagine the death rate is higher among jockeys, because if you get hit by a 500 kg horse, it's going to do a more damage than even Foreman, but I don't see many punch-drunk jockeys.

That's cruel - condemning a person to a life of brain damage sanctioned by the sport. (As you know, I love boxing as you do, but I wouldn't call it "better" than racing.)
Don't get me wrong, you won't find me petitioning against it or anything, I just don't enjoy it. It seems wrong to me, but that's just me.

I'm not a vegetarian or anything, I just don't like to see animals suffering, but with that being said, some race horses are very well taken care of, obviously. There's been 11 horse deaths since the year 2000 at the Grand National here in the UK, which isn't that many when you consider it, but it's still a bit more than I'd like to know about. I read that there's about one death per every 250 races, but I don't know if that's just here in the UK or worldwide. Between 2010 and 2017, four horses were killed at the National, and one at 2018's race. That seems quite unnecessary to me.

I think, for me, boxing gets a pass, as boxers sign up for the job and know the problems that can arise, whereas horses don't get that option. On the face of it, it's not a major issue, but it's just something I don't feel right about watching and thus I don't.

I'm also not mad about eating horse meat, I just wish those sneaky sods had told me about it. It's like the time I realized that the ham in Muslim takeaways was actually bloody turkey.
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Old 15th March 2019, 07:11 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
New York Times has a headline saying that Santa Anita will be banning drugs and whips. I haven't read the article.
Horses are pretty hardcore. They've got massive penises, they love whips and they take ketamine like champs.
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Old 15th March 2019, 07:20 AM   #49
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At least these racehorses suffered and died for a noble cause.
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Old 15th March 2019, 07:42 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
At least these racehorses suffered and died for a noble cause.
To carry miniature Irish blokes to the finish line. To be fair, Irish blokes are renowned for racing towards lines, cocaine use in Ireland is bloody rampant so it is!
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Old 15th March 2019, 10:50 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Between 2010 and 2017, four horses were killed at the National, and one at 2018's race.
The only surprise is that a lot more don't die doing it.

The GN course at Aintree is universally described in the racing industry as a horse killer. Solid jumps, poor landing places, and jump points angled downwards all add together to create the perfect way to try to kill your horse. When you factor in a gigantic field and lots of semi-professional and amateur riders, you might as well string barbed wire over the jumps.

Ever wonder why the really good racehorses don't go into the GN? That's why - you're taking a huge chance on your horse not coming home.

I've never understood the attraction of the GN - it's a joke, and a very bad one at that.
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Old 15th March 2019, 11:10 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
The only surprise is that a lot more don't die doing it.

The GN course at Aintree is universally described in the racing industry as a horse killer. Solid jumps, poor landing places, and jump points angled downwards all add together to create the perfect way to try to kill your horse. When you factor in a gigantic field and lots of semi-professional and amateur riders, you might as well string barbed wire over the jumps.

Ever wonder why the really good racehorses don't go into the GN? That's why - you're taking a huge chance on your horse not coming home.

I've never understood the attraction of the GN - it's a joke, and a very bad one at that.
It's been criticized over the years for its dangerous jumps, etc, and I think they were made to alter some of the course recently, though I don't know much about it.

I worked at the national once, and it made me dislike the event even more. Ladies Day is a mess, I can tell you. After a few glasses of bubbly, they're not ladies anymore!
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Old 15th March 2019, 12:46 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
....There's been 11 horse deaths since the year 2000 at the Grand National here in the UK, which isn't that many when you consider it, but it's still a bit more than I'd like to know about. I read that there's about one death per every 250 races, but I don't know if that's just here in the UK or worldwide. Between 2010 and 2017, four horses were killed at the National, and one at 2018's race. That seems quite unnecessary to me.

......
Do those English stats include deaths in training? Do any?
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Old 15th March 2019, 06:01 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
You just won a chocolate fish - dirt is indeed worse than turf, but both are inferior to synthetic for safety.

10 years old, but I doubt much has changed: https://aaep.org/sites/default/files...0110000405.pdf
Thanks. I did not know that.
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Old 16th March 2019, 12:10 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Do those English stats include deaths in training? Do any?
As far as I know, they're just the stats regarding horses that died either during or after the race itself.
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Old 16th March 2019, 03:23 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Do those English stats include deaths in training? Do any?
No, none of them will, unless the training was being done on racetrack.

Some of our trainers still work their horses exclusively on farms and it just gets thrown in a ditch. There's some paperwork submitted if the horse has been named, but otherwise it's just a blank spot and nobody takes any notice.

As I said before, the vast majority of racehorses that die are sent to the petfood factory for being no good at running.
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Old 18th March 2019, 12:31 PM   #57
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My dad was a huge horse racing fan. We went to the races in Mexico almost every weekend. And almost every weekend, one or two horses would collapse and be shot behind a screen, then carted off. They were discreet about it but it happens quite frequently in my experience. Obviously, something must be up at Santa Anita because 20 in a season sounds a bit much. My dad always attributed the frequency of horse deaths to the fact that in Mexico, there weren’t very well enforced regulations about the drugs you could give horses and thus, they were run much harder than they were supposed to in hot conditions which caused problems with dehydration. They would stumble and break legs as a result.
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Old 18th March 2019, 04:29 PM   #58
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That's possibly correct, because it's still fairly rare to see a horse put down on track.

I was at a meeting in Rotorua during the 1970s when a horse broke a leg about 100m short of the post, right in front of the main stand.

No worry about screens in those days, they just up and hit it with the pole-axe.

Some kids got pretty upset about that, which is when they figured screens might be a good thing.
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Old 19th March 2019, 05:11 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
My dad was a huge horse racing fan. We went to the races in Mexico almost every weekend. And almost every weekend, one or two horses would collapse and be shot behind a screen, then carted off. They were discreet about it but it happens quite frequently in my experience. Obviously, something must be up at Santa Anita because 20 in a season sounds a bit much. My dad always attributed the frequency of horse deaths to the fact that in Mexico, there weren’t very well enforced regulations about the drugs you could give horses and thus, they were run much harder than they were supposed to in hot conditions which caused problems with dehydration. They would stumble and break legs as a result.
Clenbuterol is something they used in horses and cows up in Mexico, I believe, as there was a pretty widespread issue with Mexican athletes popping dirty due to tainted meat. It's a fat-burning, muscle-building aide, IIRC.
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Old 22nd March 2019, 02:40 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
It's one of horse racing's dirty little secrets. I mean, it's not a secret really, just something that most casual fans probably aren't aware of, and although there may be a recent spike, horse deaths have been happening at a high rate ever since the sport was invented. Also, I think, but don't have time to look it up right now, that horses bred as race horses seem to be more suseptable to life-ending injuries than, say, other kinds of horses or wild horses.
We were at a vet visit, and he mentioned horses, because he had done a large animal residency. He said horses were ridiculously fragile. There's some bone in their lower leg, that he said can fracture when the horse is just walking. After hearing that I'm not terribly surprised a lot of them die per year. Not sure if the Santa Anita issue is an aberration or what.
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Old Yesterday, 12:54 PM   #61
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The vet was right - horses' legs, which have bones smaller than humans, carry an average of 7 times as much weight as a human, but with ~18 times the kinetic energy, because they're going a lot quicker.

They also land on one leg at full gallop, so the stress on that leg is phenomenal, and they do break a lot more legs than humans.

Another point is, I haven't yet heard of a leg break in a horse that isn't technically recoverable. The usual excuse is the horse needs to keep the weight off the leg, and they don't. Yet, when an expensive sire breaks a leg, it's held up in a gigantic sling until the leg is healed well enough to stand.

A horse called Don Eduardo - which is still the most expensive horse sold in NZ, a record that is 20 years old - broke a leg during racing and having invested that kind of money, with an assumed stud value in the $50M range, they moved the world to save him.

Ironically, he turned out to be a complete flop at stud.

The reason horses get shot when they break a leg is because they're not worth the effort and cost.

Santa Anita's an aberration on the normal statistics, though.
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Old Today, 01:18 AM   #62
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This year's Cheltenham Festival 4 horses died: https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/horse...enham-14140967

From the article: "You never like to win a race when that has happened but it is the reality of the sport.”

It's about money and prestige, animal welfare considerations are only whatever has been forced on the industry or what has increased profits and wins. Given its make up very unlikely to see any real reforms.
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Old Today, 02:31 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
This year's Cheltenham Festival 4 horses died: https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/horse...enham-14140967

From the article: "You never like to win a race when that has happened but it is the reality of the sport.”
That's far too many. NZ has about 25 racetrack deaths per year.

Originally Posted by Darat View Post
It's about money and prestige, animal welfare considerations are only whatever has been forced on the industry or what has increased profits and wins. Given its make up very unlikely to see any real reforms.
I disagree.

While the money talks, so does opposition to racing, which is very large and well-structured. There's a tipping point where politicians will look to ban racing if deaths reach unacceptable levels. This is why so much effort is being out in to find a remedy.
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Old Today, 03:51 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
That's far too many. NZ has about 25 racetrack deaths per year.







I disagree.



While the money talks, so does opposition to racing, which is very large and well-structured. There's a tipping point where politicians will look to ban racing if deaths reach unacceptable levels. This is why so much effort is being out in to find a remedy.
I shall disagree back. Thanks to the lure of betting there is huge cross population support for horse racing, those who control horse racing are quite literally the top of the UK I.e. the queen downwards.

Yes there has been some reforms but there is no groundswell for the type of reforms which would stop these deaths. A classic example was a couple of decades ago when there was quite a bit of bad publicity regarding the grand national. Yet the only reason the change were made was because of the costs to the trainers, breeders and owners, they decided the deaths were costing them too much.
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Old Today, 06:54 PM   #65
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I think you'll find UK is an aberration in those levels of support, and yes, a lot of that support is down to the old bag in Buck House. If she ever croaks you might find that dissipates quite quickly.

The rest of the world fits the profile I posted.
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