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Tags michael jackson , sex scandals

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Old 27th June 2016, 07:18 PM   #241
Checkmite
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
It has to do with the declaring of his actions right and wrong. Who gets to decide? Society changes it's mind on these things more often than I change my socks. Why should I accept what society claims is right or wrong? Why should I accept what you declare as right and wrong?
The society that one currently lives in, by whose rules one must operate - usually by force of law - decides. A society that other people lived in hundreds of years ago, has nothing to do with anything. If you personally decide you want to be a trailblazing moral rebel I suppose that's great, do what you do - but you must leave other people's kids out of it.

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
You are aware that the children that spent time with Jackson on the ranch did so with their families? That Jackson didn't just invite the kids, that the parents were present too, that the time he spent with them was done with the approval of the parents that were there at the time?

Even the initial complaint, one of the claimed cases of Micheal and Jordan in bed together, the father of Jordan put Micheal in the boy's room, and Jordan climbed onto the bed with Micheal. What did the father do? He just let them sleep.
Michael Jackson also paid these parents considerable amounts of money, and it undeniably had an effect on what parents were willing to abide and for how long. A key cornerstone of even Jackson's own legal defense is that as soon as the checks stopped, the parents became much more disapproving of and uncooperative with his personal relationship with their sons. If you choose to believe this suggests the parents were unscrupulous I wouldn't try to dissuade you; but it also makes it hard to argue that the parents had both eyes willfully open when deciding whether or not to agree to letting Jackson take them into his room alone.
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Old 27th June 2016, 08:51 PM   #242
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Quote:
in the same room as me without an adult witness (and probably videotape).
The 2nd time 'round he DID have an adult witness. The Arviso kids claimed the witness and MJ showed them adult porn that night.

So far as the books: MJ owned over a million books. The TWO in question were both sent to him by a fan. They were singled out by the prosecution because they were in MJ's closet or bathroom(?) (with about 10,000 others), and because he had written in one of them. He wrote a note about how carefree the subjects looked, and how much he wanted that for his own children.

He did have thousands of art books, and used many of them as source materials and inspiration for his own art (as do I, if someone looked through my personal collection they'd find some strange crap).

But all of MJ's actual porn was normal, vanilla, heterosexual stuff.

All of his homes were searched, as was his family's home. They did not find anything illegal.
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Old 27th June 2016, 09:05 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
The society that one currently lives in, by whose rules one must operate - usually by force of law - decides.
What society did Jackson live in?

He lived in an insular world where most of people around him were those directly benefitting from his largess -his employees, and his guests.

None of those people wanted to say "No, this is not the right thing to do, and you could get yourself in trouble for it".

Someone upstream mentioned Jackson getting whiny when someone tried to put their foot down with him. But that's part and parcel of being raised with that kind of money -no one ever, ever, ever said "NO" to him, and was able to make it stick. Someone was always willing to look the other way for a price. As a result, I don't think the man ever really understood boundaries, limits, or the natural consequences of some actions.

And I don't think he's alone in that. Consider how many celebrity lives might be different if those around them said "No" more often?

One sentence could change the face of the entire entertainment industry as we know it:
"No, _________, you may not have any more drugs."

But no one is able to say it, because someone else will make it happen for a price.


But of all the "someones" in his live -friends, family, employees, guests, etc the prosecution was never able to find enough evidence or people to corroborate their charges.

If MJ ever did anything wrong, no one was able to prove it.
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Old 27th June 2016, 09:08 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
He did have thousands of art books, and used many of them as source materials and inspiration for his own art (as do I, if someone looked through my personal collection they'd find some strange crap).
This is a good point here. I have looked at some pretty weird stuff over the course of my life, either books, film, internet, yet I consider myself pretty ordinary. Judging someone by the most extreme stuff you can find in a collection gathered over years is the textbook definition of confirmation bias.
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Old 27th June 2016, 10:08 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry View Post
This is a good point here. I have looked at some pretty weird stuff over the course of my life, either books, film, internet, yet I consider myself pretty ordinary. Judging someone by the most extreme stuff you can find in a collection gathered over years is the textbook definition of confirmation bias.
It's also important to note that the list of titles they took as "evidence" from Jackson's home was not just a couple of books that people can quibble over whether they were child porn. There were hundreds of titles. Both books and magazines. The porn - some well-known magazines - was adult heterosexual porn. The films were adult hetero porn. He had hundreds of nudist, not nudie, magazines from the thirties... collectors items that could've fetched two hundred bucks a copy from collectors of such stuff. In all those hundreds, the police and prosecutors found NOT EVEN ONE item of child porn.

The claim that all of this was merely part of Michael's grooming of them comes from the prosecutor. It's entered into the records as conjecture with no proof other than the bias of the people who wish to believe it. Further, wasn't he caught trying to hand the accuser one of the magazines in a pre-trial deposition. How nice if no one had noticed that [the defense attorney caught him at it and the judge wouldn't allow it] and the cops had then fingerprinted it.

One of the articles caught out the accusers blatantly lying. The magazine the kid swore to having been shown by MJ on a fixed date wasn't yet published on that date, and in fact only came out after MJ and the family had ceased to have any social interaction.

But, hey.... he was weird and kinda delicate and effeminate to our manly-macho-man eyes, so he must've been a paedophile, right?
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Old 27th June 2016, 11:33 PM   #246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post

What convinced you?
Already explained earlier in the thread; but for your benefit:
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Already explained earlier in the thread; but for your benefit:

Quote:
Quote:

IIRC, Jackson owned an "art book" comprised entirely of artistic nudes of prepubescent boys, and the book was kept together with a supply of actual (adult) pornography. I think this is rather strongly suggestive of the artistic material's actual purpose for Jackson; and I'm even going to go further than Babbylonian and opine that in conjunction with all of the other unfortunate facts about the man and his tastes and habits I think it makes a case beyond any reasonable doubt that he was a male-fixated pedophile. Given that, and with Jackson's regular access to and frequently arranging special "alone times" specifically with young boys, it would be quite surprising to me if he had actually not molested at least some of them. As to whether he molested the specific ones who accused him, obviously there's no concrete proof.
To my understanding, the reports the book was "kept together with a supply of actual (adult) pornography" is a subtle twisting of the facts. I believe they were found in the same room, however MJ had literally thousands of books. I read somewhere once he bought an entire used bookstore -the whole inventory, at once.

Considering MJ was rich beyond what most of us can dream of, an edgy and popular entertainer, a relatively young man, and loved art and photography, I think it would have been stranger if there was NOT an oddball item here or there.

If they had found nothing -literally nothing- that might give one pause, that (IMO) might have been a hint that he had purposefully hidden a cache of such materials. Because if he did, those two items would've been in his secret stash, and not just lying 'round in boxes with all the other stuff.

MJ reminds me of ME in regard to the books -if I turn around and look behind me, an entire bookcase (stuffed) is entirely buried under boxes of more books. The entire living room is filled with books. My studio space is filled with more -and some of them might make anyone raise an eyebrow. I only keep some of them for a single image or a single paragraph -but I can't bring myself to simply tear out what I like because I cannot stand to desecrate a book!

Quote:
Quote:

Not to belabor the point, but the parallels between Michael Jackson's alleged grooming process and that of Jerry Sandusky are striking. Both had an ostensibly above-board interface that by its nature provided access to children of some vulnerability (Sandusky's foundation for at-risk youth vs. Jackson's backyard amusement park for kids with medical issues). Of all the children their respective interfaces gave them access to, both Jackson and Sandusky tended to gravitate towards and single-out children of a specific sex and age-range to engineer more personal relationships with. Both took time to ingratiate themselves with their (alleged, in Jackson's case) targets' parents and families, while still creating regular opportunities to be alone with the children themselves. And both used those opportunities to slowly acclimate the children to progressively more physical closeness and affectionate touching. As in the Sandusky case, even the kids who report that Jackson never fully progressed to the abuse stage with them, still describe this same escalation of contact.
In light of everything that happened, this certainly does seem suspicious. But ONLY because of what happened -to MJ and to others (both guilty and not). But are we going to say that everyone who builds an amusement park or school for kids automatically comes under an umbrella of suspicion? Really?

The hilited part has never stood up to serious scrutiny. Face it: the prosecution and the news media kayo'd themselves trying to prove these claims. They were NOT able to do so.

The media did a lot to sensationalize and twist events so they looked more damning than they really were. For instance: they reported constantly on his relationships with boys, but omitted his relationships with girls. They even cut girls out of photos they published to give the impression that MJ only liked boys. It just wasn't true.

http://rhythmofthetide.com/michael-j...e-kid-friends/

Quote:
Quote:

As I said early on, I think the material they uncovered combined with what we already know about Jackson's activities establishes his attraction beyond a reasonable doubt. Jackson was infatuated with prepubescent boys. He rather blatantly favored their company in comparison even to other children; he needed to have access to them, to be close to them, to physically touch them. He needed to spend time alone with them and privately express love and affection for them, and have that affection accepted if not reciprocated by them. He went to unusual and very extensive lengths to accommodate these wants or needs.
See above. While I realize your opinion is the popular point of view, and I can certainly understand it, having examined a great deal of the actual evidence -and lack thereof- I cannot agree with it.

I do not believe any of these sensational claims were ever proven. MJ was acquitted, because the state was unable to prove he had done anything wrong.


Of course...there's the usual caveat: if something new comes forward, I'll be happy to look at it, and my opinion is subject to revision if warranted by the discovery of actual proven facts and evidence.
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Old 28th June 2016, 01:16 AM   #247
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I personally must agree that MJ was odd and creepy in many ways, enabled by his wealth and popularity, traits that allow many very rich people to surround themselves in a bubble of support and protection. He also had serious emotional issues in terms of his views of recreating a childhood for himself and his actions with children. The mix of the two resulted in him crossing boundaries that most adults would not even approach. But at least some of these, such as sleeping in the same bed, are not inherently sexual and are certainly common for parents and prepubescent children from time to time. Bad decisions, creepy decisions, but not illegal or inevitably immoral without the facts of the details.

After a public trial and the popular press doing tabloid jounalism to.comvict him, he was still found not guily, so I must assume that he did not actually violate a law or do anything overtly criminal that could be proven. I can not know what he was thinking, nor do I care. I care what people do and not what they think. Too many people do evil things but try to justify them by thinking that they did for virtuous reasons. I have no doubt that Dictators kill millions while thinking that this is necessary for the greater good. Conversely I actually respect people who have evil thoughts but control themselves so as to never act on them.

As to the parents of MJ's playmates only speaking of their concerns after the money dwindled: IMHO they are the scum of the story. I cannot imagine a sum large enough for me to have allowed my own children at that age to be placed in this or any other dicey situation. It is hard not to think that for at least some of these parents the money (before and in the law suits after) was more important than their concerns as to their kids.

Bottom line for me? I would not have let MJ baby sit my kids, but I certainly don't have any proof that he was scum. An emotionally strange and messed up person, yes, without a conventional (or appropriate) view of acceptable behavior, but probably not consciously evil.

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Old 28th June 2016, 01:32 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Children having to share beds with other children for lack of space, is one thing. As is the same lack of space perhaps leading a child to sleep in the same bed as her parents. Very young children who may have their own beds occasionally seeking the company of their parents or other older children or family members at bed time due to anxiety or whatnot, is also "one thing".
'Lack of space' creates a necessity. The article I linked to spoke of both necessity and choice.

Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
An adult seeking out the company of an unrelated child at bed time, in a house with numerous bedrooms and plenty of space, is quite another situation entirely; and it's completely unrelated to the above-mentioned arrangements - they are not analogous or congruous circumstances at all.
Can you point me to a source which shows that it is the adult who seeked out the company of the child at bed time?

Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
These were not 5-year-olds from large families who were afraid of suddenly being alone in the big dark scary house and ran to Jackson's room saying "Michael Michael can I sleep in your room tonight?"
I am suggesting the possibility that 'being scared to sleep alone' need not be the only reason that someone might want to sleep with another human being. Humans are sociable creatures, and there's a reason 'Pyjama parties' are a thing. If there is nothing wrong with a child wanting company through the day, why can you not imagine a situation where the child wants some company before or during going to sleep?

Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
These were tweens, who occasionally even had other family staying in other rooms of the house that would easily have been available for comfort if needed, that were specifically taken by Jackson to his bedroom because he wanted them there.
Citation needed.

Also, the fact that they stayed in their own room in their own house is kind of a circular argument. As I pointed out in my first post in this thread, the decision to sleep alone is not a decision made by a child. It is a decision made by adults for the child.

Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Jordan Chandler's mother (who never claimed to have personally seen any abuse) stated that it was Jackson who came to her asking if she could let him take her son into his bedroom, and she initially refused until Jackson started crying and guilt-tripping her for not trusting him.
Citation needed.

Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
As for other "cultures around the world" where "things are different" - wholly irrelevant. Jackson was not raised in Tanzania or Belgium or Malaysia or Kamchatka, and neither were his parents. Jackson grew up in Indiana, the American urban Midwest.
It's not about other cultures, you are right. But it's also not about American culture. Michael Jackson did not grow up in the America you grew up in, with separate rooms and beds for separate family members. And more importantly, he did not feel bound by social norms because he had the celebrity and money to go beyond it. You are trying to put into a regular box a guy who felt he needed a petting zoo and an amusement park in his house.
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Old 28th June 2016, 02:15 AM   #249
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Quote:
Michael Jackson did not grow up in the America you grew up in, with separate rooms and beds for separate family members.
Small interjection: I was only speculating about that when I mentioned it upstream. I was basing my speculations on:
-I know his family wasn't rich when the band -Jackson 5- was formed.
-the travel expenses in those early days probably didn't allow for five separate rooms for the siblings
-they're black, so previous generations may have been very poor (although I really don't know), so that more communal sleeping arrangements may have been the norm for them.

Hell...it was normal for my family (also in Indiana) up 'til two generations before I was born. My grandmother was full of tales of her whole family living in a single room house. They literally did everything together, including bathing in a single tub of water.

I'm just saying: our current, generally accepted sleeping arrangements are not universal, even here in present day USA.
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Old 28th June 2016, 03:05 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Small interjection: I was only speculating about that when I mentioned it upstream. I was basing my speculations on:
-I know his family wasn't rich when the band -Jackson 5- was formed.
-the travel expenses in those early days probably didn't allow for five separate rooms for the siblings
-they're black, so previous generations may have been very poor (although I really don't know), so that more communal sleeping arrangements may have been the norm for them.
Yes, they were 10 children and their parents staying in a 2 bedroom house.
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Old 28th June 2016, 03:42 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Sure; but then you don't have an infatuation with young boys to contend with.
Bingo.

I suspect he was a pedophile; I see no convincing evidence he was a child molester.
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Old 28th June 2016, 03:46 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
What society did Jackson live in?

He lived in an insular world where most of people around him were those directly benefitting from his largess -his employees, and his guests.

None of those people wanted to say "No, this is not the right thing to do, and you could get yourself in trouble for it".
I think this sums up the matter. A lot of rich and / or powerful people end up losing their minds because of that.
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Old 28th June 2016, 04:02 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by John Nowak View Post
I think this sums up the matter. A lot of rich and / or powerful people end up losing their minds because of that.
(nods)

Exactly. And here's a citation that demonstrates exactly what I've been suspecting all along:


Quote:
Rebbie went to check. Seconds later, she popped her head around the door, waved us over, but put a finger to her lips. We all crept to the doorway and saw the funniest, cutest sight – Michael had climbed into the crib, cuddled up next to Stacee and fallen fast asleep. It was an angelic picture. Michael was 13 –
http://rhythmofthetide.com/michael-j...e-kid-friends/
(the very first story)

Here is a perfect example of no one saying "MJ, no, no, no...you don't sleep in the crib with the baby. You sleep in your bed; she sleeps in hers. Now you climb out of there so she can rest, and you either go to your room or go play. But you stay out of her crib."

Those simple words may have changed history.
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Old 28th June 2016, 05:41 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
My guess is, because of the highly suggestive evidence of pedophilia the investigation revealed. Evidence of pedophilia isn't the same as evidence a particular child was molested; but Nancy Grace seems to be a loyal subscriber to the "where there's smoke, there's probably fire" philosophy.

Nancy Grace is a firm believer in "If I can kick up some dust I can sell gullible viewers on the idea that there's a fire."

It seems to have been a career long personality trait.

She was a Special Prosecutor for nearly ten years for the Atlanta/Fulton County DA's office.
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While a prosecutor, Grace was reprimanded by the Supreme Court of Georgia for withholding evidence and for making improper statements in a 1997 arson and murder case. The court overturned the conviction in that case and found that Grace's behavior "demonstrated her disregard of the notions of due process and fairness and was inexcusable." [9] As well, a 2005 federal appeals opinion by Judge William H. Pryor, Jr. found that Grace "played fast and loose" with core ethical rules in a 1990 triple murder case, including the withholding of evidence and allowing a police detective to testify falsely under oath.
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Old 28th June 2016, 05:44 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
If he was attracted to boys but never acted out on that, then you are talking about condemning someone for a thought crime.
I'm good with that. Because to condemn them for an actual crime, I have to allow the crime to occur - something I'm not keen on.
Could you explain how you would implement this? What do you do about someone you think may be having thoughts you disapprove of?

How do you get it to hold up in court?
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Old 28th June 2016, 07:41 AM   #256
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Jeez, I hope I won't be slandered in death by some soulless journalists.

Quote:
Eddie Dane's music collection contained music that glorified violence, some songs about the Holocaust and Satanism and music by artists that appeared to be transsexual, and music that was literally popular with the Nazis. (Ice T, Slayer, Ziggy Stardust, Lou Reed, Wagner).
His book collection contained detailed information about firearms and extremist political writings from the left and right. Also we discovered to our shock philosophy books that were literally popular with the Nazis. (Gun books, Celine, Das Kapital, Nietzsche)
His harddrive was encrypted for some reason.
I just realised I have quite a collection of books on psychedelics and comic books by Serpieri (don't Google at work) and art books by Giger. I have the Koran, The art of war by Sun Tzu and Machiavelli, a book by Mao Zedong, collected letters from Lenin, Soviet propaganda art prints. I own antique edged weapons, African masks, a rifle from the Crimean war etc etc.

I'm basically Satan. But better.
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Old 28th June 2016, 07:44 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Nancy Grace is a firm believer in "If I can kick up some dust I can sell gullible viewers on the idea that there's a fire."

It seems to have been a career long personality trait.

She was a Special Prosecutor for nearly ten years for the Atlanta/Fulton County DA's office.
I never watched Nancy Grace, but this thread induced me to view a few of her interviews on YouTube. IMHO- what a sleaze!
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Old 28th June 2016, 08:18 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
I never watched Nancy Grace, but this thread induced me to view a few of her interviews on YouTube. IMHO- what a sleaze!
I've watched her interview with rapper Two Chainz. I have no idea how that guy kept so calm. I wanted to punch the screen.
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Old 28th June 2016, 09:01 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by John Nowak View Post
I suspect he was a pedophile; I see no convincing evidence he was a child molester.
Pedophile, child molester, neither? Whatever. He was still guilty of being rich and famous...
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Old 28th June 2016, 09:11 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Pedophile, child molester, neither? Whatever. He was still guilty of being rich and famous...
And isn't that worst crime of all.
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Old 28th June 2016, 09:19 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Here is a perfect example of no one saying "MJ, no, no, no...you don't sleep in the crib with the baby. You sleep in your bed; she sleeps in hers. Now you climb out of there so she can rest, and you either go to your room or go play. But you stay out of her crib."

Those simple words may have changed history.
And given enough time to set up your personal comfort bubble, you can end up naked in a dark room watching Ice Station Zebra every day for years.

Which is how I expect the human race to end. Everyone in their own little virtual cell, pants-wetting insane, but it doesn't matter to anyone any more.

I recall one comment I can't source: Michael Jackson didn't have a friend in the world.
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Old 28th June 2016, 11:17 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
I just realised I have quite a collection of books on psychedelics and comic books by Serpieri (don't Google at work) and art books by Giger. I have the Koran, The art of war by Sun Tzu and Machiavelli, a book by Mao Zedong, collected letters from Lenin, Soviet propaganda art prints. I own antique edged weapons, African masks, a rifle from the Crimean war etc etc.
I've got a lot of WWII history, so my personal library has enough swastikas for a Nuremberg Rally. Really, why does every book about the Third Reich stick a swastika on the spine?

Amusingly, it seems that Alexi Leonov confused an astronaut's copy of Rise and Fall of the 3rd Reich with Mein Kampf.
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Old 28th June 2016, 12:50 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
That the profile you have in your head isn't correct.
Around 2002 I was contacted by the police about something they were told that was going on in the early 80's when I was a young boy, by someone else who had mentioned my name.

I agreed to give statements as long as my name didn't appear in any public court case or in the media as I have children and family and I didn't want them to know.
I was given anonymity, my wife knows though.
After about two years of investigation, including being driven around the country pointing out houses and making video testament, it went to court.
I had to appear as a witness, so I saw them again.

End result, a group of men went to prison for between 3-14 years, convicted of the rape/sexual assault of young boys aged between 11 and 15.

The profile I have in my head is correct regarding the people I met who preyed on young boys, from my experience.

Jackson fits into that profile.
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Old 28th June 2016, 12:52 PM   #264
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To find out for sure if Jacko indeed was a practicing pedophile, I contacted John Edward to do a reading for me. The first thing he said was "I am getting an 'M' or a 'J' and a 'P'.

Case closed.
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Old 28th June 2016, 01:12 PM   #265
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Is pedophile just the catchall term now? The age of the accusers would make him a hebephile.
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Old 28th June 2016, 05:18 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
In light of everything that happened, this certainly does seem suspicious. But ONLY because of what happened -to MJ and to others (both guilty and not). But are we going to say that everyone who builds an amusement park or school for kids automatically comes under an umbrella of suspicion? Really?
But here's the thing: you explain the entire situation in your very first sentence. It's not about any one single thing being a "giveaway" or "tell". It's the totality of the situation. Perhaps Michael Jackson having two (according to Wikipedia at least, which I checked earlier today - I had previously been aware of only one having been found) art books featuring nude young boys, is not of itself particularly suggestive; but add another detail - like a person who actively seeks out young boys to have personal and atypically close relationships with - and suddenly a little more consideration is warranted. Add more details, something concerning begins to emerge.

Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
The hilited part has never stood up to serious scrutiny. Face it: the prosecution and the news media kayo'd themselves trying to prove these claims. They were NOT able to do so.

The media did a lot to sensationalize and twist events so they looked more damning than they really were. For instance: they reported constantly on his relationships with boys, but omitted his relationships with girls. They even cut girls out of photos they published to give the impression that MJ only liked boys. It just wasn't true.

http://rhythmofthetide.com/michael-j...e-kid-friends/
Let's get a few things straight here. What was shown to have been untrue - or more correctly, lacking credibility - were the specific claims of the state's two primary witnesses in the 2005 trial. Other details such as the claims of other persons that weren't at stake in that particular trial, were not. Further, descriptions of Jackson's activities - the fact that he did specially favor young boys for close relationships, or the fact that he would have some of those boys alone for sleepovers in his bedroom, or that his relationships with his more special friends involved a lot of closeness and physical contact for example - they were not "disproven" at the trial; indeed they weren't even contested. Some of the "sensationalized" claims were even corroborated - several of the witnesses reported that whenever they were with Jackson in his bedroom, there was a special alarm system that would give Jackson advance warning if anyone was coming down the hall toward the bedroom. There's only one practical function for such a system; a function Jackson's defense unwittingly acknowledged when they used it to undermine the credibility of one of the accusers (who claimed to have snuck down the hall at one point and opened the door of Jackson's bedroom to witness an oblivious Jackson molesting his brother, a circumstance the defense correctly pointed out that the alarm would have prevented).

The fact that there exists a photograph of Jackson carrying the toddler sister of Jordan Chandler does not somehow "prove" Jackson was precisely as interested and time-invested in girls as he was in boys generally, or that he had just as close a relationship with Jordan's sister as he had with Jordan specifically. Jackson's charity work did not discriminate between boys and girls, and between that and his backyard kiddy park, Jackson certainly had any number of photo ops with girls as well as boys. But nobody has asserted or even suggested that Jackson ever asked for Chandler's sister to be allowed to spend the night alone with Jackson in his bedroom, the way he asked for Jordan. Not only have all of the actual accusers, and supporters of the accusers, who alleged to have been abused by Jackson been every one of them young boys, but even the "character witnesses" that Jackson's own defense team brought in to testify that Jackson did nothing in appropriate with them while they were alone with Jackson in his bedroom were all boys, and all within the same select "age of interest" during the period of their sleepover sessions. (It might be worth mentioning that coincidentally, one of those character witnesses who had originally defended him during the trial turned against Jackson a couple of years ago and now asserts that he too was molested over a period of several years.)

Why was Jordan Chandler's sister "cut out" of that one photo? Well, why was the old bushy-eyebrow white man standing on the other side of Chandler cut out of the photo as well? Maybe because neither of them had anything to do with the abuse allegations; and in the case of minors especially, some reporters have a modicum of understanding that people have a right to privacy that includes not being dragged into a matter with which they weren't involved by virtue of happening to have appeared in a random photograph with someone who was involved.
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Old 28th June 2016, 05:25 PM   #267
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Originally Posted by HenryLee View Post
Is pedophile just the catchall term now?
"Now", no. Colloquially "pedophile" has been the catchall term for decades. For what it's worth, at least some of Jackson's alleged victims would (if true) definitely put him within "technical" pedophile range.
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Old 28th June 2016, 10:22 PM   #268
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Quote:
But here's the thing: you explain the entire situation in your very first sentence. It's not about any one single thing being a "giveaway" or "tell". It's the totality of the situation. Perhaps Michael Jackson having two (according to Wikipedia at least, which I checked earlier today - I had previously been aware of only one having been found) art books featuring nude young boys, is not of itself particularly suggestive; but add another detail - like a person who actively seeks out young boys to have personal and atypically close relationships with - and suddenly a little more consideration is warranted. Add more details, something concerning begins to emerge.
I agree concerning things emerged. However, none of them stood up in court. I guarantee: if Jackson could have been accused of clipping his toenails the wrong way, the state of California would've tried.

Quote:
that coincidentally, one of those character witnesses who had originally defended him during the trial turned against Jackson a couple of years ago and now asserts that he too was molested over a period of several years.)
Are you referring to Safechuck? It's my understanding the statute of limitations is up, so he can make these claims -and ask for cold cash- without having to worry about the kind of cross examination he would face in a criminal trial?


Quote:
Safechuck says MJ wanted a full-blown relationship with him ... to the point he performed a secret wedding ceremony with the boy with wedding ring and a marriage certificate.
Does anyone know where those artifacts are now?


Quote:
The statement by James Safechuck about Michael Jackson is as follows.


“I have finally come to know and appreciate now, after a little over a year of intensive therapy and psychiatric treatment, that this relationship was a predatory and wholly improper one, and one whereby the decedent [Jackson] used my trust and love of him as a means to victimize and sexually molest me.”

Read more at http://www.inquisitr.com/1943206/mic...ecldXAZQGcd.99
Really? Just now? He wasn't talked to at great length about these things before he testified on MJ's defense?

Quote:
Safechuck states that he came forward after learning of Robson’s accusation, and Robson himself claims that it was after the birth of his son that he realized that what had allegedly happened to him was wrong.
Read more at http://www.inquisitr.com/1944509/mic...5QC2WQYX7OK.99
Yeah...and babies cost money.....

Unlike bytewizard, I have no guru to tell me for certain what happened, any more than anyone else. All we know for sure is: MJ was acquitted, but there's still money in the coffin, and people willing to dig for it.

We shall see, I suppose, if any of these new claims ever see a courtroom.
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Old 28th June 2016, 11:14 PM   #269
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There's another aspect of this topic I've always found troubling. But I don't know how to word it to make sense. I'm gonna try, but forgive me if it doesn't come out quite right....

You see, here is where the block of butter gets cut:

Quote:
Some of the "sensationalized" claims were even corroborated - several of the witnesses reported that whenever they were with Jackson in his bedroom, there was a special alarm system that would give Jackson advance warning if anyone was coming down the hall toward the bedroom. There's only one practical function for such a system; a function Jackson's defense unwittingly acknowledged when they used it to undermine the credibility of one of the accusers (who claimed to have snuck down the hall at one point and opened the door of Jackson's bedroom to witness an oblivious Jackson molesting his brother, a circumstance the defense correctly pointed out that the alarm would have prevented).
For me, installing such an alarm system would be ludicrous. It would be expensive, and cumbersome. It would require shopping for a system that would suit my needs, work in my house, and fit within my budget (ha ha ha). It would require workmen to come to the house, require furniture to be moved and holes to be cut and I-don't-know-what-else. Probably a service contract, too, for ongoing maintenance and upgrades and repairs.

In short: it would require time, effort, money and professional help.

But for someone like MJ, all it required was to be unexpectedly awoken one morning. Just once. Someone pops open the door, sees him lying in bed and say "Oh, excuse me, sir...you're late!" He says "Damn! I need an alarm to let me know you're coming down the hall" and that is all it takes. A nod, a "yes, right away" and at the end of the workday, there's an alarm.

If I had his money! I'd have alarms and bells and whistles and blinky lights for everything imaginable. I'd have a machine that made me coffee and a doughnut five minutes before I woke up. I'd have a fridge that wouldn't need to be opened -it would give me a scrolling menu of all the contents, and suggested recipes! I'd have an escalator going downstairs and an elevator going up. I'd have an automatronic violinist playing me to sleep, and a gizmatic rooster with real feathers! to wake me up in the morning.

And I'd need people to help me make the damn things work.

Jackson could not have done the things he's accused of doing without HELP. No amount of money, or fancy alarm systems or super secret beacons or whatever would've prevented the employees and other guests to have seen what was happening. His behavior was constantly being monitored by dozens of people. Hell, every time the man changed his clothes, someone wrote an article for the Enquirer.

Yet, none of those people -the employees, the other guests, the technicians that kept his house and amusement park running, the people who fed his pets, the people who watered the roses- none of them were (as far as I know) ever charged with the crime of turning their heads while he committed felonies against children.

But there is no way he could have done it without help. All of these accusers are talking about the money, the cash, the gifts. The cars and computers, trips, clothes, toys -and the personal attention from the star himself- are fodder for a constant stream of babble about what life in his home was like, but no one mentions the cooks or the maids or the other people who must have seen all this was happening.

Where are they? Why aren't they coming forth with these kinds of allegations? Why aren't they being charged with aiding MJ's crimes? Why aren't the tabloids splashing 'round headlines with their criminal pasts family skeletons and long exposes for what they saw MJ doing with these children?
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Old 28th June 2016, 11:33 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
I agree concerning things emerged. However, none of them stood up in court. I guarantee: if Jackson could have been accused of clipping his toenails the wrong way, the state of California would've tried.
No. None of the things I have explained here that add up to convince me Jackson was a pedophile, were in any wise discredited in court. For the second time, the only thing that was discredited in court was the two primary witnesses claims of molestation. Those other extenuating facts still stand. That they were not enough to support a verdict that Jackson specifically molested that particular boy in the manner that boy and his mother claimed, does not somehow mean they are therefore disproven or discredited by association. I have not included that family's discredited claims in my personal assessment of Jackson.

Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Are you referring to Safechuck? It's my understanding the statute of limitations is up, so he can make these claims -and ask for cold cash- without having to worry about the kind of cross examination he would face in a criminal trial?
I was referring to Wade Robson, actually. In any case, Michael Jackson is dead, so limitations statute considerations are rather moot.
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Old 28th June 2016, 11:35 PM   #271
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Quote:
In any case, Michael Jackson is dead, so limitations statute considerations are rather moot.
Right. But he can still ask for money from the estate.

Further, the state could still prosecute any of MJ's staff or anyone else who had knowledge this was happening.
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Old 29th June 2016, 12:19 AM   #272
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
No. None of the things I have explained here that add up to convince me Jackson was a pedophile, were in any wise discredited in court. For the second time, the only thing that was discredited in court was the two primary witnesses claims of molestation. Those other extenuating facts still stand. That they were not enough to support a verdict that Jackson specifically molested that particular boy in the manner that boy and his mother claimed, does not somehow mean they are therefore disproven or discredited by association. I have not included that family's discredited claims in my personal assessment of Jackson.

I was referring to Wade Robson, actually. In any case, Michael Jackson is dead, so limitations statute considerations are rather moot.
There are just too many insinuations, allegations and bait-and-switches that happen unknowingly in such threads. Could I suggest that you present the strongest piece of evidence that you think suggests Michael Jackson was a child molester? We can then look at that piece.

If your claim is that that it is not one strong piece of evidence but multiple smaller pieces, we can even look at all of them.

This is of course only if we are looking for discussion. If the intent is just to announce Michael Jackson's 'guilt', we can carry on
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Old 29th June 2016, 12:20 AM   #273
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Let's think, for a moment, about who else would know if MJ did just most of what has been claimed.

First, the kids were in his bedroom. There's pretty much no dispute about that. They were there. The bedroom was a two story room, with a sleeping area upstairs, and a community gathering room downstairs. So MJ could, conceivable, look over the balcony(?) into the area downstairs, to see if everyone there was sleeping. Okay...so, he would have go get out of bed, and return to it, without the children making a ruckus. For very small children, I can see that...but older ones? They wouldn't wake up? "Hey, whatcha doin'?" "Can we watch TV?" "Can we go to the mall?" "Can we have French toast?"

Anyone who woke up just because someone was moving would be awake instantly -and listening.

Next, you have the physical evidence of the claims made. If MJ was masturbating all over the sheets, the maid -and/or whoever did the laundry- would probably know this. Granted, it's their job to wash the damn sheets, not ask questions. But if they were in that house, they would probably know there might be children in that bed. So I would imagine any stain at all would be noticed, and remembered. The same with bedwetting, which I think would be one of the first signs of abuse. "Sir, someone has wet this bed. Twice. As this is a classical sign of child sexual abuse I will be leaving early, and I'm taking these sheets with me."

I've said people didn't want to say "No" to him, and I believe it to be the truth -to an extent. I believe if anyone had genuine cause to believe these things were going on, and had means to stop it, they would've been quite vociferous in their condemnation -especially those making minimal wages. Another job is just too easy to find to risk a lifetime of prison shielding a celebrity boss.

The alarm system...I don't know how those work. But speculating (from watching TV), I'd guess it's a motion sensor in the hall. Which could be bypassed by anyone who knows where it is. Just one employee with a few doubts, a quibble over a paycheck, and even rudimentary burglary skills could probably get past it.

If the alarm was a bell that rang or a buzzer, other people would hear it, too. So anyone else in the room would be alerted if someone came down the hall.

Finally, if it was installed for safety measures, I'm sure there was a system or protocol if the alarm was not shut off in reasonable time period. That is, if it went on beeping for ten minutes, someone would go check on him. Which means someone, somewhere would know that room was beeping in the first place. And likely knew who, exactly, was in that room. So that person would also have to either have to HELP him, or be constantly fooled into ignoring it if MJ was 'busy' and didn't go turn off the damned alarm.

You see, the whole thing is like the island in Jurassic Park: the more people and systems that are involved, the more likely all kinds of things would be going wrong, and the less likely he would be able to hide it.

Finally, there are the signs of child abuse in the child, himself.

The pain, if there was any kind of penetrative sex. Are we going to say he just shut up and didn't say a word -even when other people were right downstairs? No; in fact no one even claimed that happened. Has anyone asked why not? If MJ was brazen enough to masturbate a child in bed with another child present, why would he stop there?

Wouldn't the classic signs (bedwetting, nightmares, cruelty toward animals, etc) that all is not right would be noticed by those people at that ranch who were around children all day long, everyday?

Or were they all -every one of the employees- in on it? If so, why weren't they charged, too?
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Old 29th June 2016, 12:58 AM   #274
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The kids.

Apparently they are all liars. While MJ can't be
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Old 29th June 2016, 01:23 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
There's another aspect of this topic I've always found troubling. But I don't know how to word it to make sense. I'm gonna try, but forgive me if it doesn't come out quite right....

You see, here is where the block of butter gets cut:

For me, installing such an alarm system would be ludicrous. It would be expensive, and cumbersome. It would require shopping for a system that would suit my needs, work in my house, and fit within my budget (ha ha ha). It would require workmen to come to the house, require furniture to be moved and holes to be cut and I-don't-know-what-else. Probably a service contract, too, for ongoing maintenance and upgrades and repairs.

In short: it would require time, effort, money and professional help.

But for someone like MJ, all it required was to be unexpectedly awoken one morning. Just once. Someone pops open the door, sees him lying in bed and say "Oh, excuse me, sir...you're late!" He says "Damn! I need an alarm to let me know you're coming down the hall" and that is all it takes. A nod, a "yes, right away" and at the end of the workday, there's an alarm.
Absolutely true; no doubt about it. But, once again, we're talking about just another little weight on the scale. Taken alone, absent any context, it's no work at all to imagine a way that the alarm - OR the sleepovers, OR the books with naked kid pictures in them, OR whatever other individual thing - could easily be completely innocuous. But in Michael Jackson's case, the "little things" keep coming, and one has to keep making up more hypothetical stories to explain how Jackson just kept managing to do these completely innocuous things that happened make him look kind of like a pedophile. Everybody has a limit to how many of these kinds of hypothetical stories they're willing to make up to excuse someone for something. Your limit is greater than mine.


Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Jackson could not have done the things he's accused of doing without HELP. No amount of money, or fancy alarm systems or super secret beacons or whatever would've prevented the employees and other guests to have seen what was happening. His behavior was constantly being monitored by dozens of people. Hell, every time the man changed his clothes, someone wrote an article for the Enquirer.

Yet, none of those people -the employees, the other guests, the technicians that kept his house and amusement park running, the people who fed his pets, the people who watered the roses- none of them were (as far as I know) ever charged with the crime of turning their heads while he committed felonies against children.
Well, about that - I simply disagree; nobody has contended that Jackson molested his alleged victims in the amusement park courtyard, or on the patio, or sitting out in the living room, or anywhere else that it could be said that scores of associates and visitors and employees must have witnessed any molestation if it had ever really happened. Let's be real here. In the case of any other wealthy celebrity that has ever gone down for child molestation - sticking with cases that were actually convicted or confessed to - when have large numbers of third-parties ever been able to testify they witnessed the abuse or had special knowledge it was taking place? Never, not even once. It's the abuser, the victim, and often one or two accidental witnesses that managed to see something despite the abuser's best efforts to conceal the incidents.

That said, a handful of former employees of the ranch, and one child of a former employee, did testify for the prosecution, alleging they witnessed or were victims of indiscretions by Jackson. The defense insisted they were all simply disgruntled gold-diggers, and certain of them were definitely impeachable enough - but nevertheless, there were staff with things to say about the matter.

Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Right. But he can still ask for money from the estate.
It is normal for victims and alleged victims to file civil suits against their perpetrators, especially wealthy ones. This goes for cases in which the abuse is positively ascertained or confessed to as well as cases where it hasn't been, so the fact that someone is filing a lawsuit in a sexual abuse case is not that meaningful. Since Michael Jackson is dead, the only legal option available to anyone who wants to seek justice for alleged abuse or other mistreatment is going to be a lawsuit against his estate.
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Old 29th June 2016, 01:29 AM   #276
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
The kids.

Apparently they are all liars. While MJ can't be
No; I'm not saying that. Rather, the kids seem to only be making these disclosures once the parents realize there's a payout to be had.

Or, after they're grown, and realize for themselves there's a payout to be had.

I'm the first to admit: the money muddies the water. Would these families have made these charges if there was no money to be made? The fact is: we don't know.

We do know Jordan's family took the money and ran -they refused to testify in court to the claims they were making. As a direct result, California state law was changed to prevent anyone ever doing it again, so the Arviso family was forced to wait 'til after the criminal case to be able to suit for a financial judgement. When he was acquitted I think that pretty much guaranteed they would lose...but I don't recall if they even tried? I'll have to Google that....
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Old 29th June 2016, 01:31 AM   #277
cullennz
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So the same with women accusing Bill Cosby after years?
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Old 29th June 2016, 01:54 AM   #278
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Quote:
Everybody has a limit to how many of these kinds of hypothetical stories they're willing to make up to excuse someone for something. Your limit is greater than mine.
I suppose that's true. I have been -personally- involved in situations where a large number of small, trivial events caused a form of pareidolia. Suddenly, there was nothing I could say or point to that didn't just make the picture even worse, or that didn't just sound like ********. Hell, I lost a very dear friend not two years ago because we lost our trust in each other -over a preponderance of small things, on both sides, that may have been innocent coincidence, or not. For my side, I guess I'll never really know.

Quote:
Well, about that - I simply disagree; nobody has contended that Jackson molested his alleged victims in the amusement park courtyard, or on the patio, or sitting out in the living room, or anywhere else that it could be said that scores of associates and visitors and employees must have witnessed any molestation if it had ever really happened.
No; but.... I'm almost certain I've seen allegations in this case of secret codes and cryptic handshakes and such? Further, there should have been some physical evidence somewhere that was more convincing than a couple of dusty books.

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It is normal for victims and alleged victims to file civil suits against their perpetrators, especially wealthy ones.
Yes; of course it is. I'm not arguing against the system. I'm simply pointing out that it makes the waters murky, and makes it more difficult to really determine the motives of the people involved.

But........ As a parent of four, I can tell you: if I believed MJ had touched one of my children, I would've wanted him in jail. Money would've been a secondary concern, at best, after therapy and whatever else my kid needed to have a normal life.
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Old 29th June 2016, 01:56 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
So the same with women accusing Bill Cosby after years?
I have no idea. I haven't followed that case at all.
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Old 29th June 2016, 02:10 AM   #280
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I think Bill Cosby is guilty as.

Probably the same though.

Making it up
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