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Tags New Zealand incidents , transgender incidents , transgender issues

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Old 14th March 2019, 12:03 PM   #841
cullennz
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Also, I think I should go on record as saying I would pay to see a trans only league. In any sport.
I find this slightly hard to believe.
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Old 14th March 2019, 12:06 PM   #842
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Often, but not always. Society provides certain benefits for being a woman that a lot of men might like to have access to ...
You see this argument a lot. We can't recognize trans-people as the gender of their choice because if we did, someone might take unfair advantage for something nefarious. In this case it's insurance fraud, often it's about bathroom rights.

The problem I have with the argument is that it's always used to place an additional burden on the trans-person. "We can't allow Tammy to use the women's bathroom because if we do, some man will just say they feel like a woman today and go in there and sexually assault someone."

I propose that it makes more sense to turn that burden around. If someone identifies as trans and you or someone else objects, then it's up to them to say why that person isn't trans.

So if the insurance company doesn't want to recognize the person as a woman who only wants a better rate, that's okay with me. Just as it's okay with me if the book of world records doesn't want to recognize the power-lifting feat of that person who only identified as a woman long enough to lift those weights. Pointing out that they only identified as trans for the few minutes it took to do what they wanted and have never consulted a doctor or attorney seem like perfectly viable reasons not to consider them trans.
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Old 14th March 2019, 12:08 PM   #843
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I find this slightly hard to believe.
Football? Check.
Basketball? Check.
Wrestling? Double-check.
Golf? Okay, maybe not, but I can't watch golf anyway.
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Old 14th March 2019, 12:23 PM   #844
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
I propose that it makes more sense to turn that burden around. If someone identifies as trans and you or someone else objects, then it's up to them to say why that person isn't trans.
Then why isn't that weightlifter trans? You said he isn't, but what's your basis for that claim?

Regardless of where you want to put the burden of proof, you still need a standard if you want it to be anything other than self-declaration. If it's up to me to prove that someone isn't authentically trans, you still have to have some standard by which you can say, yes, you've proven they aren't authentically trans. Otherwise, there's nothing else except self-declaration. If you want it to be self-declaration and nothing more, then simply say so. There are consequences to that (such as the insurance thing, which isn't fraud because it's all perfectly legal), and you may be OK with those consequences, but they can't be wished away.

Quote:
So if the insurance company doesn't want to recognize the person as a woman who only wants a better rate, that's okay with me.
It may be OK with you, but it's not OK with the government. The insurance company doesn't have the legal right to refuse recognition in that case.

Quote:
Pointing out that they only identified as trans for the few minutes it took to do what they wanted and have never consulted a doctor or attorney seem like perfectly viable reasons not to consider them trans.
So is that your standard then? They have to consult a doctor or attorney (the guy in the insurance case did consult a doctor)? It has to be sustained for some period of time? You can make your standard whatever you want it to be, but you have to have one or you can't claim anyone's inauthentic.
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Old 14th March 2019, 12:25 PM   #845
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Did you read the linked decision? The mother's opinion on the transition plays no part in the judge's consideration. In fact, the notion that either parent would have insight into the welfare of the child is completely absent. Only the child's desires and the opinions of the doctors are given any weight whatsoever.
Yes, I skimmed the decision. The mother was on board with it. I don't think it would have made it to court if she wasn't.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Moreover, there's a very troubling reliance on the asserted risk of suicide. This is troubling because there are lots of reports that kids are coached to say that they are feeling suicidal or will attempt suicide if they don't get what they want. There seems to be no effort by the court to determine if this risk is real.
Is that really the case? Or is it only an assertion from the anti-Trans crowd?

The fundamental question here is what if the child transitions, then later changes their mind and regrets it for the rest of their lives? That a very real and important consideration. We should try to make sure it's really the best choice for the child.

But another and equally important consideration is what if the child should transition, and that transition is delayed so the opportunity to make it as natural as possible is lost? The child would also regret that for the rest of their lives. That's no less a tragedy as the first scenario.

I'm going to posit that it's inevitable that there will be circumstances where the choice is made the wrong way, and that no matter what policies are put in place that there will be times when there is a result that is regretted. With that in mind, I don't see that delayed transitioning is the less regrettable outcome to the trans-person.
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Old 14th March 2019, 12:32 PM   #846
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Yes, I skimmed the decision. The mother was on board with it. I don't think it would have made it to court if she wasn't.
That appears in the summary of the case. It plays zero part in the reasoning of the judge's decision.

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Is that really the case? Or is it only an assertion from the anti-Trans crowd?
From what I can tell, that's sometimes really the case. See my above source. There's no way to tell if it's what happened in this specific case, but the possibility exists.

Quote:
I'm going to posit that it's inevitable that there will be circumstances where the choice is made the wrong way, and that no matter what policies are put in place that there will be times when there is a result that is regretted. With that in mind, I don't see that delayed transitioning is the less regrettable outcome to the trans-person.
Of course the wrong decision will sometimes be made, regardless of who is empowered to make the decision. And I'm not claiming to have any insight at all into what the right decision should be in this case.

But you claimed that the decision should be made by the parents, doctor, and child. And in this case, it's not. It's being made by the doctor and the child. The court is explicitly ignoring the input of the parents. Seriously, at no point does the court give any weight to whether or not the parents might know what's best for the child.
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Old 14th March 2019, 12:35 PM   #847
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Then why isn't that weightlifter trans? You said he isn't, but what's your basis for that claim?
I already answered that. You just didnít quote that part.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Regardless of where you want to put the burden of proof, you still need a standard if you want it to be anything other than self-declaration.
Alright, sure. But itís not up to you and me to hash it out. Iím content to leave it to the professionals who study and work with the issue.


Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It may be OK with you, but it's not OK with the government. The insurance company doesn't have the legal right to refuse recognition in that case.
Iím pretty sure that if the insurance industry can give different rates to women and men, that they can deny giving the rates of one gender to a person of the other gender. If you have evidence to the contrary, Iíd love to see it.
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Old 14th March 2019, 12:35 PM   #848
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Football? Check.
Basketball? Check.
Wrestling? Double-check.
Golf? Okay, maybe not, but I can't watch golf anyway.
Chess Boxing (Yes it really is a sport)

Cheese Rolling

Shin Kicking

Horse Dressage

Rhythmic Gymnastics

Bog Snorkelling

The annual watching people play video games thing

?
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Old 14th March 2019, 12:37 PM   #849
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
But you claimed that the decision should be made by the parents, doctor, and child. And in this case, it's not. It's being made by the doctor and the child. The court is explicitly ignoring the input of the parents. Seriously, at no point does the court give any weight to whether or not the parents might know what's best for the child.
To me it seems that the two parents disagree. I think it's more likely than not that if the mother didn't support the transition that there would never have been a case for the judge to rule on.

Which, in my opinion, means that the parents opinions were considered, only one of them was overruled.
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Old 14th March 2019, 12:38 PM   #850
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There's a huge difference between a judge saying, "the mother is in favor of this, and that's important to consider" and a judge saying, "the mother is in favor of this, but that isn't relevant".

Or in the judge considering the mother's opinion so irrelevant that they don't even mention it in their ruling. It's hard to argue that the judge took the mother's opinion into account, when they literally don't take it into account.
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Old 14th March 2019, 12:39 PM   #851
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
To me it seems that the two parents disagree.
Probably. But the court doesn't care. The court didn't say, given the disagreement between the parents, the doctor's opinion tips the scales. The court says only the doctor's and the child's opinion matters.

Quote:
I think it's more likely than not that if the mother didn't support the transition that there would never have been a case for the judge to rule on.
Likely in the sense that the mother probably hooked the child up with both the doctor and a lawyer. But that plays no role in the court's reasoning.
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Old 14th March 2019, 12:49 PM   #852
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Chess Boxing (Yes it really is a sport)

Cheese Rolling

Shin Kicking

Horse Dressage

Rhythmic Gymnastics

Bog Snorkelling

The annual watching people play video games thing

?
I feel like I must see transgender chess boxing. It's not a thing yet, but it seems inevitable.

Shin kicking?
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Old 14th March 2019, 12:51 PM   #853
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Alright, sure. But itís not up to you and me to hash it out. Iím content to leave it to the professionals who study and work with the issue.
It very much is for us to decide, since we live in a democracy and people want to use the power of government to enforce the decision.

Quote:
Iím pretty sure that if the insurance industry can give different rates to women and men, that they can deny giving the rates of one gender to a person of the other gender. If you have evidence to the contrary, Iíd love to see it.
Canada has an actual standard for what constitutes authentically trans: a legal change in your designated sex. The guy who wanted a better insurance rate satisfied that standard. The insurance company has no grounds to contest it. They have to give him the women's rate, because legally, he is a woman. It's all in the link.
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Old 14th March 2019, 12:52 PM   #854
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Probably. But the court doesn't care. The court didn't say, given the disagreement between the parents, the doctor's opinion tips the scales. The court says only the doctor's and the child's opinion matters.



Likely in the sense that the mother probably hooked the child up with both the doctor and a lawyer. But that plays no role in the court's reasoning.
We're going to have to agree to disagree.

When the two parents disagree, how do you think the decision should be made?
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Old 14th March 2019, 12:53 PM   #855
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It very much is for us to decide, since we live in a democracy and people want to use the power of government to enforce the decision.
So the government should have the right to make a very deeply personal decision?

How do you justify that?
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Old 14th March 2019, 01:07 PM   #856
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
We're going to have to agree to disagree.

When the two parents disagree, how do you think the decision should be made?
Once again, the court doesn't care whether the parents agree or disagree. The court doesn't care what the parents think at all. This isn't a case of doctors tipping the balance between the parents, this is a case where only the doctors matter, and the parents are, legally speaking, irrelevant to the decision. Had the court decided that the doctor's opinion tipped the scale between the parents, then that would still align with what you said you wanted (the decision to be between the parents, doctor, and child). But that isn't what happened, at all.
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Old 14th March 2019, 01:19 PM   #857
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
So the government should have the right to make a very deeply personal decision?

How do you justify that?
You seem to be confused about what I'm saying. The decision we're talking about is not what gender someone is. The decision we're talking about is what standards should apply to enforced recognition of a gender.

If government stays out of the issue completely, then no standards are necessary, we can all decide for ourselves not only what gender we want to claim, but what gender we will recognize in others.

But government isn't staying out of the issue, and transgender activists don't want it to. Government is forcing people to treat others as being of a specific gender. Since that involves the use of government power (and potentially even violence), and I have a say in how government power is exercised (because I live in a democracy), my opinion is relevant rgarding the standard government uses to decide what gender identity to enforce.
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Old 14th March 2019, 01:40 PM   #858
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Once again, the court doesn't care whether the parents agree or disagree. The court doesn't care what the parents think at all. This isn't a case of doctors tipping the balance between the parents, this is a case where only the doctors matter, and the parents are, legally speaking, irrelevant to the decision. Had the court decided that the doctor's opinion tipped the scale between the parents, then that would still align with what you said you wanted (the decision to be between the parents, doctor, and child). But that isn't what happened, at all.
You conclude that this court didn't care, but I don't agree. The case was brought to the court because the parents disagreed, so their disagreement was inherent to the case.

Setting that aside, because we're not going to be able to resolve that disagreement and I don't see any benefit to a drawn out argument over it, how do you think the decisions should be made in cases where the parents disagree?
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Old 14th March 2019, 01:41 PM   #859
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You seem to be confused about what I'm saying. The decision we're talking about is not what gender someone is.
Fair enough.
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Old 14th March 2019, 01:49 PM   #860
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
You conclude that this court didn't care, but I don't agree. The case was brought to the court because the parents disagreed, so their disagreement was inherent to the case.
Courts replicate their reasoning across cases. The next case might not involve disagreeing parents.

Quote:
Setting that aside, because we're not going to be able to resolve that disagreement and I don't see any benefit to a drawn out argument over it, how do you think the decisions should be made in cases where the parents disagree?
I'm OK with doctors tipping the balance of a disagreement between parents, because I don't see a better option. But if the case involves parents disagreeing with doctors, I don't think the court should automatically side with the doctors. But that court absolutely would do so.
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Old 14th March 2019, 01:57 PM   #861
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
I feel like I must see transgender chess boxing. It's not a thing yet, but it seems inevitable.

Shin kicking?
People come from the world over to watch the famous World Champs



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I AGREE
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Old 18th March 2019, 05:48 AM   #862
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Very much.

In video gaming it is referred to as "seal clubbing", purposely playing against people with lower skill to gain more wins. It is seen as a dishonorable tactic, and ruins the sense of fair play ranked matching gives.

Essentially trans women athletes are seal clubbing, most likely unintentionally, but the effect is the same.
In jiu jitsu we call it sandbagging. I have no idea where the term comes from, but it applies to people who avoid getting promoted to a higher belt level in order to compete and win against people at that lower level.

People are weird, and like to win, even when the win is pretty meaningless. I know a guy who celebrates "winning" and shows off his medals when there was literally no one else in his division.
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Old 18th March 2019, 05:51 AM   #863
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Government is not one of the ways a society decides to organise itself... And then you go on and admit that it is
Where did I either claim that "Government is not one of the ways a society decides to organise itself" or "admit" that it is?

Sporting organisations are one of the ways that society decides to organise itself. Is there something that you think I should conclude from that?
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Old 18th March 2019, 05:52 AM   #864
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
I don't think the argument was that the government isn't one. Sure it is. But it's not the only one. And I think the argument was merely whether the government is the best one to solve this particular problem.

Which I don't think is nonsense.
Exactly, thank you.
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Old 18th March 2019, 07:46 AM   #865
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Beautiful, but still a league short of Andreja Pejich. Must be something in the water in Eastern Europe, because Stav Strashko is also amazing.
I looked them both up. On both of them you can still trace the male features in their faces. I find Blaire White to look completely feminine. Not saying that's a good or a bad thing. I just personally don't find it attractive when a trans woman still slightly looks like a man. But even if their faces looked completely feminine, I don't find their bodies attractive. I don't like the "bulimic supermodel" look in women.
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Old 18th March 2019, 08:55 AM   #866
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
In jiu jitsu we call it sandbagging. I have no idea where the term comes from
https://www.etymonline.com/word/sandbag
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Old 18th March 2019, 09:39 AM   #867
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
In jiu jitsu we call it sandbagging. I have no idea where the term comes from, but it applies to people who avoid getting promoted to a higher belt level in order to compete and win against people at that lower level.

People are weird, and like to win, even when the win is pretty meaningless. I know a guy who celebrates "winning" and shows off his medals when there was literally no one else in his division.

Made me look.

I got curious, because I've seen and heard the usage (basically, to deceive someone into thinking you are weaker than you are) in so many other situations.

It appears to go back at least to card playing in the 1940s as a slang term with that usage. Conjecture is that it is related to the term for someone who uses a sand filled cosh to render someone unconscious, "sandbagger", which can be traced to the 1800s.
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Old 18th March 2019, 09:47 AM   #868
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
When the two parents disagree, how do you think the decision should be made?
To a first approximation, the decision should be made by the parents finding a workable compromise between their positions, like grown-ass adults who formed exactly such a partnership on purpose.

To a second approximation, by appealing to a disinterested and binding arbitrator, who will consider their positions and take them into account when finding a workable compromise.

What actually happened was they appealed to an arbitrator who ignored their positions entirely and made a decision based on their the arbitrator's own criteria, that didn't take the parents into account.

Last edited by theprestige; 18th March 2019 at 10:28 AM. Reason: clarifying a pronoun
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Old 18th March 2019, 09:55 AM   #869
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
To a first approximation, the decision should be made by the parents finding a workable compromise between their positions, like grown-ass adults who formed exactly such a partnership on purpose.

To a second approximation, by appealing to a disinterested and binding arbitrator, who will consider their positions and take them into account when finding a workable compromise.

What actually happened was they appealed to an arbitrator who ignored their positions entirely and made a decision based on their own criteria that didn't take the parents into account.
Ok so you have to find a grown-ass adult arbitrator, too.
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Old 18th March 2019, 09:55 AM   #870
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I'd like to return to the question of why if sex and gender are distinct and seperate, that

A) Assumes that everything that was separated by sex/gender with distinguishing which one has to assumed to have been separated by gender.

B) Why that takes the option of separating things by biological sex is no longer on the table.

If "Sex and Gender aren't the same thing" is key point here, then just going "Okay well we're separating sports by biological sex" would end the conversation with no place for anyone to get upset about.
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Old 18th March 2019, 10:22 AM   #871
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
I looked them both up. On both of them you can still trace the male features in their faces. I find Blaire White to look completely feminine. Not saying that's a good or a bad thing. I just personally don't find it attractive when a trans woman still slightly looks like a man. But even if their faces looked completely feminine, I don't find their bodies attractive. I don't like the "bulimic supermodel" look in women.
Sounds fine to me - means there will be no arguments next time you, me, and those three are at a party.
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Old 18th March 2019, 10:33 AM   #872
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'd like to return to the question of why if sex and gender are distinct and seperate, that

A) Assumes that everything that was separated by sex/gender with distinguishing which one has to assumed to have been separated by gender.

B) Why that takes the option of separating things by biological sex is no longer on the table.

If "Sex and Gender aren't the same thing" is key point here, then just going "Okay well we're separating sports by biological sex" would end the conversation with no place for anyone to get upset about.
Sex and gender are closely coupled things. Gender is a social construct based on biological sex. Gender disphoria arises when your internal version of the construct doesn't match your biology. Treatment consists broadly of two things: Modifying your sex to more closely approximate your gender construct; and getting society to treat you according to your preferred gender construct, rather than the gender construct customarily assigned to your sex.

So separating sports by biological sex does not end the conversation with no place for anyone to get upset. Transwomen who wish think of themselves - and be treated by others - according to their preferred gender construct rather than their biological sex, will be left out by a separation based on biological sex, and will be upset about it.
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Old 18th March 2019, 11:16 AM   #873
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
So separating sports by biological sex does not end the conversation with no place for anyone to get upset. Transwomen who wish think of themselves - and be treated by others - according to their preferred gender construct rather than their biological sex, will be left out by a separation based on biological sex, and will be upset about it.
There are limits to what you can do to force other people to treat you the way you want to be treated. If trans people can't be treated as the sex of their choice when it comes to sports, that may be unsatisfying for them, but overall, it's a perfectly acceptable outcome, and probably the best available one.
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Old 18th March 2019, 11:17 AM   #874
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
To a first approximation, the decision should be made by the parents finding a workable compromise between their positions, like grown-ass adults who formed exactly such a partnership on purpose.

To a second approximation, by appealing to a disinterested and binding arbitrator, who will consider their positions and take them into account when finding a workable compromise.

What actually happened was they appealed to an arbitrator who ignored their positions entirely and made a decision based on their the arbitrator's own criteria, that didn't take the parents into account.
What is a "workable compromise"?
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Old 18th March 2019, 11:28 AM   #875
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I'm OK with doctors tipping the balance of a disagreement between parents, because I don't see a better option. But if the case involves parents disagreeing with doctors, I don't think the court should automatically side with the doctors. But that court absolutely would do so.
Let's make the question harder.

What if there were only one parent, and that parent was against transition on religious grounds believing that God never makes mistakes and that anyone who transitions from one gender to the other is basically saying God made a mistake in giving them the gender of their birth. This person essentially denies there is a condition called gender dysphoria.

The child really believes themselves to be the other gender and the doctors agree this is a genuine case of gender dysphoria.
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Old 18th March 2019, 11:31 AM   #876
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
There are limits to what you can do to force other people to treat you the way you want to be treated. If trans people can't be treated as the sex of their choice when it comes to sports, that may be unsatisfying for them, but overall, it's a perfectly acceptable outcome, and probably the best available one.
This is basically where I'm at, but it's different from JoeMorgue's "separate by sex and everybody's happy" proposal.

Also, policies that leave a minority unhappy on the principle that they're a minority raise some thorny issues.
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Old 18th March 2019, 11:34 AM   #877
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
What is a "workable compromise"?
Depends what the meaning of "is" is.

Are you asking a serious question? Issues of subjective values between two people are going to be specific to their values, their relationship, and the specific nature of the issue. A workable compromise is going to be whatever compromise works for those people in that particular circumstance.
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Old 18th March 2019, 11:34 AM   #878
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Also, policies that leave a minority unhappy on the principle that they're a minority raise some thorny issues.
I think there's a lot more to the justification than just trans women being a minority. But that is a relevant justification for something like sports, where popularity is a legitimately relevant consideration.
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Old 18th March 2019, 11:50 AM   #879
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Let's make the question harder.

What if there were only one parent, and that parent was against transition on [illegitimate gorunds]

The child really believes themselves to be the other gender and the doctors agree this is a genuine case of gender dysphoria.
The details of the parent's opposition to transition aren't actually relevant here, and only serves to entangle irrelevant considerations.

What's relevant is that there's a dispute between the three parties that you said should be involved in the decision. Courts will likely have to sort out such a disagreement, and will probably have to consider the validity of each party's position in such a dispute. And in such an event, the court should give full consideration to the position of the parent, even if it decides after that full consideration that their position is invalid or less persuasive than the position of the other parties in the dispute. The details of why their position is weak don't actually matter for the current discussion, and any of the parties in such a disagreement could potentially have a weak position, not just the parents.

But it still needs to be given full consideration, or else you aren't actually leaving the decision to the parents, child, and doctor.

Oh, and one more thing that didn't really come up because I haven't heard of any cases yet to test the second half of this, but we might in the future. If both parents and doctor think the child should not transition but the child thinks they should, then they should not transition. If both parents and doctor think the child should transition but the child thinks they should not, then they should still not transition. There should be an asymmetry here.
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Old 18th March 2019, 11:55 AM   #880
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post

So separating sports by biological sex does not end the conversation with no place for anyone to get upset. Transwomen who wish think of themselves - and be treated by others - according to their preferred gender construct rather than their biological sex, will be left out by a separation based on biological sex, and will be upset about it.
Biology trumps feelz.

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