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Old 15th February 2019, 10:18 AM   #121
angrysoba
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
Maybe this is a really dumb thing to think (I'm assuming it must be since no one else has really brought it up), or maybe I've just seen a bit too much Homeland, but wouldn't a real concern of taking these people back be that they could then become terrorists on UK soil? Unless they're jailed literally for life upon return, couldn't they be playing the long game?

I'm NOT saying they should or would be jailed for life. I'm just asking - is this a realistic concern?
An unrepentant Jihadi might be a terrorist threat? Please, stop talking common sense!
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Old 15th February 2019, 10:36 AM   #122
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Problem solved, it seems....
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Old 15th February 2019, 10:42 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Ah. Yeah, there we have it, I guess.
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Old 15th February 2019, 10:50 AM   #124
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As I said

Originally Posted by baron View Post
The US has openly stated the UK is too soft on returning terrorists and, tired of the UK government's lack of concrete action, wants to stick them all in Guantanamo.
It will only be solved if they get to her before she gets to a consulate, assuming the UK don't man up during that period.

One option the UK may have is to make her subject of an exclusion order, meaning she can't return to the UK within a two year period, then hope she's either killed, taken to Guantanamo or undergoes a change of mind. Or, possibly, new legislation can be introduced in the interim period to ensure she can never return.
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Old 15th February 2019, 11:08 AM   #125
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Is there a non-paywalled version of the full article?
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Old 15th February 2019, 11:19 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Read the article. She regrets nothing and liked the ISIS lifestyle. She had to flee because the alternative was a nice greeting from home in form of a bomb on the head, and that danger is still not over:
If I start a bar fight and then grab a child and use it to absorb a punch meant for me that's on me, not the guy throwing the punch.
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Old 15th February 2019, 11:44 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
If I start a bar fight and then grab a child and use it to absorb a punch meant for me that's on me, not the guy throwing the punch.
It's actually a fundamental principle of war crimes: The combatant who mingles with civilians is responsible for the civilian harm that arises from attempts to put a stop to him.

Caveat: Those attempting to stop him must still adhere to the principles of military necessity and proportionality, or be liable for war crimes themselves.

I'm not sure "guy blocking a punch in a bar fight" is a great analogy. On the other hand, "guy setting up a command post in a hospital" is usually a legit target for airstrikes, and the harm to the hospital and its occupants is entirely on him. Similarly, "soldier who bivouacs with his family" is the one responsible for his family's safety, not the ones attacking him. See also, "enemy commander who attends a wedding".
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Old 15th February 2019, 11:50 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
An unrepentant Jihadi might be a terrorist threat? Please, stop talking common sense!
When common sense clashes with ideology,common sense often loses..with bad consquences.
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Old 15th February 2019, 05:08 PM   #129
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I guess we'll have to wait and see if the UK does allow her back. Apparently the law at present does require the UK to accept the return of all UK nationals, even in situations like this, so she could appoint lawyers who would press that case against any opposition from the UK government.

On the other hand, a number of lawyers and security experts and others have been interviewed on BBC radio over the last couple of days, and they say there are various precedents for either delaying the implementation of that law (i.e. Ms Begum may have to sit about waiting for up to two years whilst the legal issues are resolved), or else there are ways in which that specific law could be overruled anyway. On top of which government spokesmen have made it clear that they do not want her back in this country if she poses any possible risk at all (though government MP's often say things like that, and then later have to change their minds).
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Old 15th February 2019, 05:26 PM   #130
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We have the Canadian version only ours is 46 years old and claims she joined up on a "humanitarian mission". Save the women and children. She claims she "didn't know all the politics".

She just decided to throw on a tent and enter a war zone ? She's 46 years old.

Link
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Old 15th February 2019, 05:53 PM   #131
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slightly offtopic:
what is the situation re: committing what would be considered crimes in the country you are from, in other countries?

for example, Irish citizens coming to the UK to get abortions because it's illegal in ireland, they do not get arrested or punished when they get back to Ireland as far as I know?

another example, In japan the legal age of consent is 13, if a UK citizen sleeps with a 14 year old in japan, do they get arrested when they get back to the UK?

Or a really good example, what if a UK citizen goes to saudi arabia and gets a job being an executioner, or a hand lopper offa, do they get arrested when they get back to the UK?

Last edited by p0lka; 15th February 2019 at 06:00 PM.
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Old 15th February 2019, 06:08 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
We have the Canadian version only ours is 46 years old and claims she joined up on a "humanitarian mission". Save the women and children. She claims she "didn't know all the politics".

She just decided to throw on a tent and enter a war zone ? She's 46 years old.

Link
Either she is lying or she is Darwin Award level stupid.
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Old 15th February 2019, 06:16 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by IanS View Post
I guess we'll have to wait and see if the UK does allow her back. Apparently the law at present does require the UK to accept the return of all UK nationals, even in situations like this, so she could appoint lawyers who would press that case against any opposition from the UK government.

On the other hand, a number of lawyers and security experts and others have been interviewed on BBC radio over the last couple of days, and they say there are various precedents for either delaying the implementation of that law (i.e. Ms Begum may have to sit about waiting for up to two years whilst the legal issues are resolved), or else there are ways in which that specific law could be overruled anyway. On top of which government spokesmen have made it clear that they do not want her back in this country if she poses any possible risk at all (though government MP's often say things like that, and then later have to change their minds).
They don't really get a choice
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Old 15th February 2019, 06:57 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
They don't really get a choice
The Home Secretary seems to believe otherwise saying that he would try to block her return but also said, perhaps some what contradictorily, that she would be prosecuted if she does come back:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47248555
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 15th February 2019, 07:08 PM   #135
p0lka
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
The Home Secretary seems to believe otherwise saying that he would try to block her return but also said, perhaps some what contradictorily, that she would be prosecuted if she does come back:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47248555
yeah, our ministers don't seem to be particularly good at detail at the moment.
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Old 15th February 2019, 07:17 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
slightly offtopic:
what is the situation re: committing what would be considered crimes in the country you are from, in other countries?

for example, Irish citizens coming to the UK to get abortions because it's illegal in ireland, they do not get arrested or punished when they get back to Ireland as far as I know?

another example, In japan the legal age of consent is 13, if a UK citizen sleeps with a 14 year old in japan, do they get arrested when they get back to the UK?

Or a really good example, what if a UK citizen goes to saudi arabia and gets a job being an executioner, or a hand lopper offa, do they get arrested when they get back to the UK?
I believe you could have been prosecuted in Ireland for having an abortion in the UK, although the law is changing in Ireland now. And I am pretty sure that almost anyone could be prosecuted in Japan for sex with minors. The 13 is a red herring and really only refers to a standard across the whole of Japan. It definitely does not mean that sex with 14 year olds is legal as other city or prefectural rules vary according to circumstance, the age, the sex, the relationship of the participants. But essentially it makes it illegal for sex with school children at least up to 16 and usually up to 18 (if they are still in high school for example) and sometimes up to 20.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 15th February 2019, 07:18 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
yeah, our ministers don't seem to be particularly good at detail at the moment.
True enough. They seem to be endlessly confused by the Irish border and how it cannot be open if you leave the EU.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 15th February 2019, 07:38 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
True enough. They seem to be endlessly confused by the Irish border and how it cannot be open if you leave the EU.
Yeah.

That looks like a massive can of worms.

I heard an interview a few weeks ago saying they had 1000 UK police being trained to man a border again over Brexit.

Stupid times
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

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Old 15th February 2019, 07:39 PM   #139
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Probably should have googled a source first

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crim...ario-1.3747236
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 16th February 2019, 01:07 AM   #140
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Although she was a kid when she was groomed at some point she has to treated as the adult she now is. So if she returned she should be put on trail and if found guilty jailed etc.

As for her child, it should be removed as soon as possible and placed for adoption, her immediate family should not be able to apply for custody, they have shown they are unfit to raise children.
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Old 16th February 2019, 01:32 AM   #141
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I think it depends on what outcome you want.

If people are out for some sort of retribution for horrible crimes there is no actual evidence of her doing then jail.

If it is having an end game involving rehabilitation, if possible, chucking her in jail will be the last thing you want to do IMHO.


Will just reinforce what she now believes.
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 16th February 2019, 02:12 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I think it depends on what outcome you want.

If people are out for some sort of retribution for horrible crimes there is no actual evidence of her doing then jail.

If it is having an end game involving rehabilitation, if possible, chucking her in jail will be the last thing you want to do IMHO.


Will just reinforce what she now believes.
Ever since ISIS appeared and began raping and butchering their way across the Middle East, my response has been that they should all be hunted down and exterminated.

My view hasn't changed.
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Old 16th February 2019, 02:15 AM   #143
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Can someone explain to me why she can't be held to Syrian jurisprudence? Why does she have to go back to the UK? Why can't she be judged by Syria (where she actually committed her alleged crimes) and then suffer Syrian justice (even if that means she'll be executed)?
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Old 16th February 2019, 02:18 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by ThatGuy11200 View Post
Ever since ISIS appeared and began raping and butchering their way across the Middle East, my response has been that they should all be hunted down and exterminated.

My view hasn't changed.
She raped and butchered her way across the middle east?

Impressive
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 16th February 2019, 02:19 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by The Nimble Pianist View Post
Can someone explain to me why she can't be held to Syrian jurisprudence? Why does she have to go back to the UK? Why can't she be judged by Syria (where she actually committed her alleged crimes) and then suffer Syrian justice (even if that means she'll be executed)?
She is a UK citizen

What alleged crimes?
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 16th February 2019, 02:33 AM   #146
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Lightbulb

Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
She is a UK citizen

What alleged crimes?
Being part of a terrorist organization, for a start. And being a UK citizen does not protect you from being prosecuted in other countries if you commit crimes abroad.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 16th February 2019, 03:05 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I don't see any way to slice this that doesn't end with her in a British jail if she comes back, unless they cut her some serious slack for being underage at the time.

I can't see that there's a viable charge to level.
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Old 16th February 2019, 03:10 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by ThatGuy11200 View Post
Ever since ISIS appeared and began raping and butchering their way across the Middle East, my response has been that they should all be hunted down and exterminated.
Indeed. And that applies to all terrorists and direct supporters of terrorism.

Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
She is a UK citizen

What alleged crimes?
I've already listed about ten.
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Old 16th February 2019, 04:48 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Being part of a terrorist organization, for a start. And being a UK citizen does not protect you from being prosecuted in other countries if you commit crimes abroad.
FFS

Just list the crimes


15 year old going to country with terrorists, got it.

The rest?
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 16th February 2019, 04:53 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
FFS

Just list the crimes


15 year old going to country with terrorists, got it.

The rest?
FFS

She joined ISIS.

ISIS is a terrorist organization.

It is illegal to be in a terrorist organization.

That means it is a crime.

You can be arrested if you commit a crime.

Arrested by police.

Police drive cars that go nee-nah nee-nah! You may have heard or seen them.

I can’t simplify it any more than that for you.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 16th February 2019, 05:04 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
FFS

Just list the crimes
I've listed the ******* crimes! Jesus Christ!
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Old 16th February 2019, 05:07 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by The Nimble Pianist View Post
Can someone explain to me why she can't be held to Syrian jurisprudence? Why does she have to go back to the UK? Why can't she be judged by Syria (where she actually committed her alleged crimes) and then suffer Syrian justice (even if that means she'll be executed)?
She could be prosecuted in Syria, if the Syrian authorities got hold of her. At the moment she's in a refugee camp under the control of the Syrian Kurds who aren't exactly friends of the Assad regime either.
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Old 16th February 2019, 05:08 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
FFS

Just list the crimes


15 year old going to country with terrorists, got it.

The rest?
Membership of an illegal organisation carries a prison sentence of up to ten years. IS is an illegal organisation.
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Old 16th February 2019, 05:31 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
FFS

She joined ISIS.

ISIS is a terrorist organization.

It is illegal to be in a terrorist organization.

That means it is a crime.

You can be arrested if you commit a crime.

Arrested by police.

Police drive cars that go nee-nah nee-nah! You may have heard or seen them.

I can’t simplify it any more than that for you.


What's the name of the offence she'll be charged with?
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Old 16th February 2019, 05:37 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
What's the name of the offence she'll be charged with?
Membership of an illegal organisation.
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Old 16th February 2019, 05:44 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
What's the name of the offence she'll be charged with?
Membership of a proscribed organization

Quote:
Membership.
(1)A person commits an offence if he belongs or professes to belong to a proscribed organisation.
(2)It is a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (1) to prove—
(a)that the organisation was not proscribed on the last (or only) occasion on which he became a member or began to profess to be a member, and
(b)that he has not taken part in the activities of the organisation at any time while it was proscribed.
(3)A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable—
(a)on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years, to a fine or to both, or
(b)on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months, to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum or to both.
Support of a proscribed organization

Quote:
12 Support.
(1)A person commits an offence if—
(a)he invites support for a proscribed organisation, and
(b)the support is not, or is not restricted to, the provision of money or other property (within the meaning of section 15).
(2)A person commits an offence if he arranges, manages or assists in arranging or managing a meeting which he knows is—
(a)to support a proscribed organisation,
(b)to further the activities of a proscribed organisation, or
(c)to be addressed by a person who belongs or professes to belong to a proscribed organisation.
(3)A person commits an offence if he addresses a meeting and the purpose of his address is to encourage support for a proscribed organisation or to further its activities.
(4)Where a person is charged with an offence under subsection (2)(c) in respect of a private meeting it is a defence for him to prove that he had no reasonable cause to believe that the address mentioned in subsection (2)(c) would support a proscribed organisation or further its activities.
(5)In subsections (2) to (4)—
(a)“meeting” means a meeting of three or more persons, whether or not the public are admitted, and
(b)a meeting is private if the public are not admitted.
(6)A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable—
(a)on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years, to a fine or to both, or
(b)on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months, to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum or to both.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 16th February 2019, 05:44 AM   #157
3point14
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
Membership of an illegal organisation.
Thank you.
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Old 16th February 2019, 05:46 AM   #158
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If only someone had pointed that out earlier we could have been spared a full page of back-and-forth:

Oh, wait

Originally Posted by baron View Post
There is whole raft of crimes she might be in breach of, including (paraphrased) supporting terrorism, inviting support for terrorism, funding terrorism, being a member of a proscribed organisation, distributing, displaying or promoting terrorist material, receiving or engaging in terrorist training, transmitting information likely to be useful in terrorist activity, failing to report terrorist activity or the suspicion of terrorist activity to the authorities and, depending on what she's done in Syria, direct involvement in terrorist acts. And that's just a few off the top of my head.
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Old 16th February 2019, 05:48 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
If only someone had pointed that out earlier we could have been spared a full page of back-and-forth:

Oh, wait

There, there.
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Old 16th February 2019, 06:00 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
There, there.
You're right, I'm not entering into the spirit of this debate.

Does anybody know what crimes this woman can be charged with?
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