ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 25th February 2019, 04:16 AM   #241
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,777
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Er, I was being tongue-in-cheek.

Yes, I know! I started from the bottom and worked my way up the posts, so in the meantime I have discovered my mistake!
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2019, 04:17 AM   #242
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Moomin Valley
Posts: 15,088
Originally Posted by dann View Post
I think that Baylor's point is that if she'd been a racist, she would never have left Scandinavia to go anywhere in the rest of the world. She could then have stayed biassed and ignorant, and white supremacists wouldn't have tried to kill her.
It goes to show how out of touch with reality Baylor is. Truth is, nordics love their holidays in sunnier climes. The key motivation being sun.
__________________
If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2019, 04:18 AM   #243
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,777
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I passed the psychology exam. I can quote the names behind the theory.

Congratulations. But I am very well-read in this field as well. Being fully aware of the dangers of smoking and deciding to continue to smoke without being in denial about the facts is not cognitive (!) dissonance. It's not very clever, but it's not cognitive dissonance.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2019, 04:22 AM   #244
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,777
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It goes to show how out of touch with reality Baylor is. Truth is, nordics love their holidays in sunnier climes. The key motivation being sun.

I need to go to the Canaries and/or Cuba at least for times a year. I can live with the cold, but I just can't stand the darkness of November, December, January and February.
And I tend to have a bit of cognitive dissonance about jet fuel, CO2 and global warming!
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2019, 04:24 AM   #245
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Moomin Valley
Posts: 15,088
Originally Posted by dann View Post
Congratulations. But I am very well-read in this field as well. Being fully aware of the dangers of smoking and deciding to continue to smoke without being in denial about the facts is not cognitive (!) dissonance. It's not very clever, but it's not cognitive dissonance.
Ah, but I didn't say that. I alluded to the level of psychological discomfort felt. Denial or justification are just a couple of the several ways people deal with cognitive dissonance. For example, not all smokers deny it causes cancer.
__________________
If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2019, 04:25 AM   #246
baron
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,627
Originally Posted by dann View Post
Congratulations. But I am very well-read in this field as well. Being fully aware of the dangers of smoking and deciding to continue to smoke without being in denial about the facts is not cognitive (!) dissonance. It's not very clever, but it's not cognitive dissonance.
Actually, it is. It's a common example in the field.

Quote:
Lets say a woman smokes cigarettes despite knowing it can lead to lung cancer. She continues to do it because she tells herself she needs the cigarettes to help her deal with anxiety. Or maybe shell say she doesnt smoke nearly enough cigarettes for them to cause serious harm. In this example, shes reducing the dissonance by convincing herself the behavior is okay in her mind.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2019, 04:29 AM   #247
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,777
Originally Posted by baron View Post
Actually, it is. It's a common example in the field.

Quote:
Let’s say a woman smokes cigarettes despite knowing it can lead to lung cancer. She continues to do it because she tells herself she needs the cigarettes to help her deal with anxiety. Or maybe she’ll say she doesn’t smoke nearly enough cigarettes for them to cause serious harm. In this example, she’s reducing the dissonance by convincing herself the behavior is okay in her mind.

Thank you for proving my point.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2019, 05:50 AM   #248
Thermal
Philosopher
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NJ USA. We Don't Like You Either
Posts: 6,712
Originally Posted by baron View Post
Actually, it is. It's a common example in the field.
I thought the rationalizing was the coping mechanism for resolving the dissonance, rather than the dissonance itself?
__________________
"Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2019, 05:51 AM   #249
Gilbert Syndrome
Philosopher
 
Gilbert Syndrome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Liverpool, UK
Posts: 5,965
Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
I put less stock in that horrendous video. Even the "not racist" Danish person hasn't tried to defend whatever the hell that thing was. I'm still trying to make sense out of it. It's wonderful when a white man commits a drug crime because everyone expected a Muslim to get busted. What? That seems offensive to both Muslims and white people. The American equivalent would be a commercial where a white man gets busted for robbing a liquor store and it's wonderful that a woman watched it because she thought only black people rob liquor stores. Jaws would be on the floor if a commercial like that aired in America. My only explanation is this is the new religious craze in Scandinavia. If you want to make sense out of that train wreck, I'm all ears.
I'm the last person to jump aboard the PC Bandwagon and start yammering on about how we should love and accept radical Islamist hermits out in the mountains and apologize for even remotely upsetting them or their God, but my point is, basing anything on what people are saying in the comments section of news articles or Youtube videos is just pretty redundant, as they're mostly all illiterate, slightly retarded weirdos with nothing better to do. These are the same comment sections that bring us the flat-earthers, David Icke fans and all-round weirdly religious nutjobs of every faith imaginable.

All of this being said, I can't honestly blame an entire religion or its followers for the actions of a "few." Do I think Islam is a mess? Yep. Do I care what it's followers think? Nope. But then again, I also don't care what mental, Trump-loving, gun-toting Christians think, either.

Of course you're going to find some mental hermits willing to murder two white European girls up in the Moroccan mountains like some degenerate Hills Have Eyes savages, that shouldn't be surprising, much as it's not surprising if you get mugged walking through an inner-city park at night.

None of this proves or means anything unless you already have a narrative that you're supporting.

These two girls, unfortunately, were way too naive, and that's what it comes down to here for me. If you think it means see, I told ya all Muslims are killers, well that's no less naive than thinking you can go wandering about in the mountains of a foreign country and not come to harm. Over the last several years, there's been a few reports of backpackers being killed in many countries, and there were no religious fanatics in sight, just nutjobs. The world is full of nutjobs, and it certainly ain't limited to the Muslim community.

From what I can gather, you seem surprised that the world contains idiots, white idiots, black idiots, brown idiots, Christian idiots, Muslim idiots, Jewish idiots, etc, etc. I don't know what to tell you other than wake up and smell the human excrement.
__________________
Generic proclamation of positivity:

Scouse saying - Go 'ed, is right, nice one, boss, well in, sound, belter, made up.

Usage: 'Go 'ed, lad, get us an ale in, nice one.'
Gilbert Syndrome is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2019, 05:59 AM   #250
baron
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,627
Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
These two girls, unfortunately, were way too naive, and that's what it comes down to here for me.
Which returns us to my original point. The media obsession with convincing people that Islam is 'the religion of peace' is partly to blame for this naivety. In the same way as well-meaning liberal girls believe all immigrants are gentle, grateful refugees on the back of media campaigns, then are surprised when they're attacked and raped, it's not surprising that a gullible person who is constantly told that the most peaceful people on earth are Muslims, when broadly speaking the opposite is true, is taken off guard when a bunch of them chop off her head.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2019, 06:05 AM   #251
Gilbert Syndrome
Philosopher
 
Gilbert Syndrome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Liverpool, UK
Posts: 5,965
Originally Posted by baron View Post
Which returns us to my original point. The media obsession with convincing people that Islam is 'the religion of peace' is partly to blame for this naivety. In the same way as well-meaning liberal girls believe all immigrants are gentle, grateful refugees on the back of media campaigns, then are surprised when they're attacked and raped, it's not surprising that a gullible person who is constantly told that the most peaceful people on earth are Muslims, when broadly speaking the opposite is true, is taken off guard when a bunch of them chop off her head.
I tend not to listen to what they media has to say, and would gladly invite others to join me, but people will be people.

I think it can go both ways, some news outlets would have us believe that ISIS are planning to tunnel beneath our homes and behead our garden gnomes, while other outlets would have us believe that we're the problem, and we're responsible for the actions of radical Islamist extremists, and I'd say both sides are full of crap.
__________________
Generic proclamation of positivity:

Scouse saying - Go 'ed, is right, nice one, boss, well in, sound, belter, made up.

Usage: 'Go 'ed, lad, get us an ale in, nice one.'
Gilbert Syndrome is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2019, 06:42 AM   #252
Tolls
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,416
Originally Posted by baron View Post
Which returns us to my original point. The media obsession with convincing people that Islam is 'the religion of peace' is partly to blame for this naivety. In the same way as well-meaning liberal girls believe all immigrants are gentle, grateful refugees on the back of media campaigns, then are surprised when they're attacked and raped, it's not surprising that a gullible person who is constantly told that the most peaceful people on earth are Muslims, when broadly speaking the opposite is true, is taken off guard when a bunch of them chop off her head.
Are you watching some completely different media to the rest of us?

I'm not sure that squares with reporting around ISIS, for example.

As GS has said, people get attacked backpacking all the time...all over the place. I really don't see this as a media thing.
Tolls is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2019, 07:27 AM   #253
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,777
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I thought the rationalizing was the coping mechanism for resolving the dissonance, rather than the dissonance itself?

It is the dissonance itself. There are several ways of solving the dissonance - I mentioned two in the case of smokers - or of finding ways to live with it. In an interview, James Randi mentioned a (well-known) skeptic friend of his who was also a Christian. According to Randi, he chose to believe because it made him feel good and he needed no other justification for the apparent contradiction. And Randi, the atheist, accepted his choice. Agreeing to disagree ...

ETA: I can recommend Mistakes Were Made (But Not By Me) (Wikipedia). And Baylor will be pleased to hear that, in spite of the title, it's not about Trump! (It's from 2007)
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 25th February 2019 at 07:36 AM.
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2019, 07:31 AM   #254
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,777
Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
Are you watching some completely different media to the rest of us?

I'm not sure that squares with reporting around ISIS, for example.

As GS has said, people get attacked backpacking all the time...all over the place. I really don't see this as a media thing.

The problem is that you don't see that they all happened to be daft, nave girls who would be alive today if they hadn't been anti-racists!
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2019, 07:33 AM   #255
varwoche
Penultimate Amazing
 
varwoche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 12,610
Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
... All of this being said, I can't honestly blame an entire religion or its followers for the actions of a "few." Do I think Islam is a mess? Yep. Do I care what it's followers think? Nope. But then again, I also don't care what mental, Trump-loving, gun-toting Christians think, either.
Textbook willful ignorance.

I may have a low opinion about what certain people think. But that's a far cry from not caring. Know thy enemy, etc.
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
varwoche is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2019, 07:58 AM   #256
varwoche
Penultimate Amazing
 
varwoche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 12,610
Originally Posted by dann View Post
No, she didn't, and no, she wouldn't. However, they might still have been alive if Jyllands-Posten hadn't posted its stupid Muhammad drawing, which made Danes a target for Muslim extremists.
This post prompted a lot of responses, most of which impress me as vacuous posturing based on binary thinking.

Responsibility lies with the killers of course. But that doesn't negate cause and effect. An imperfect example: If an attractive, 16 year old girl wearing skimpy clothing says she's going to a party at R Kelly's house (or Jeffrey Epstein's if you prefer) I have no problem telling her that's an idiotic, high-risk decision and she's asking for trouble. But if that trouble occurs, of course the ultimate blame lies with the perp.

It's entirely possible that the Danish publication stupidly and provocatively placed a target on the backs of traveling Danes, while at the same time the ultimate blame lies with the perps. These concepts aren't contradictory.
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
varwoche is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2019, 08:06 AM   #257
baron
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,627
Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
Are you watching some completely different media to the rest of us?

I'm not sure that squares with reporting around ISIS, for example.
Haven't I just explained this?

I said the narrative is that Islam Is The Religion Of Peace.

When ISIS are mentioned there is a big rush to declare that these types are not Muslims and furthermore, have nothing to do with Islam. This garbage is foisted upon us by everybody from mainstream media to presidents.

So other than the absolute insane extremes such as ISIS, we are told all of Islam is not just simply conforming to the mean of human behaviour but actually exceeds it, so much so it is worthy of a special title all of its own - The Religion Of Peace. Ironic, when you think that Islam incorporates by far the most violent and intolerant ideologies in the world today.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2019, 08:53 AM   #258
sadhatter
Philosopher
 
sadhatter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 8,356
Originally Posted by dann View Post
My victim blaming?!!! Did you notice the title of this thread?!
It's the absolute truth that the two Scandinavian girls might still have been alive if Jyllands-Posten hadn't started the stupid campaign against the peaceful Muslim minority in Denmark. Most of the world wouldn't have heard about Denmark otherwise, but after that, Danes became a target - even two girls who were brave enough to stand up against the homicidal terror of white supremacists in Scandinavia. (By the way, I'm happy that the Moroccans get to hear that part of the story. It will serve to make them despise the terrorist murderers so much more!)

The one who has been blaming the victims from the very beginning, the title of the OP, is Baylor, who seems to agree with Breivik in his criticism of Scandinavian anti-racists.
And the repulsive worldview is yours!




Thank you! That's what I've been saying was your focus the whole time: Not crimes committed by Muslim extremists, but crimes committed by Muslims - in spite of the fact that the millions of Moroccan Muslims despise and condemn these terrorists the same way that the girls and I have condemned white supremacist terrorists.




When terrorists murdering two innocent Scandinavian girls is treated as a (pseudo-)argument, it's not whataboutism to point out that blaming the alleged navety of girls for having turned them into murder victims (Yes! You guys are the actual victim blamers!) is absurd in the light of the teenagers massacred by Christian white supremacist Anders Behring Breivik!
And once again you don't deliver any proof that it is so, but you accuse me of finding "it acceptable to apologise for Islamic murderers."
With your grotesque lies, you still wonder why I'm reminded of Trump?!




You and Baylor appear to be the victim-blaiming cheerleaders for terrorism in this thread!





And where exactly do I revile free speech - and in particular, of course, "for non-Muslims", now? And where do I "support Islamic atrocities"? (As if you were ever going to back up your accusations with proof.)
Aren't you guys the ones who claimed that the "daft, nave European girls" brought it upon themselves?!
Oh, the glee that you felt when writing and reading that title!
Both of you

" I mean white extremists *mentions token extremists ***** on whites* "

" I mean muslim extremists *mentions token extremists ***** on muslims*"

Behold the horror of centrist thinking.

All cultures inspire extremists, it is how those cultures tolerate and react to those extremists that is important. But please continue to try and convince someone on the internet their entire worldview is wrong with one verbal haymaker instead of analysing these trends.
sadhatter is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2019, 09:41 AM   #259
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,777
Originally Posted by baron View Post
When ISIS are mentioned there is a big rush to declare that these types are not Muslims and furthermore, have nothing to do with Islam. This garbage is foisted upon us by everybody from mainstream media to presidents.

OK, Baron. It's time again for me to ask for evidence:
Who declares that ISIS aren't Muslims? You claim that there's not only a big rush to declare that they aren't, but it's actually "foisted upon us by everybody," so it shouldn't be too difficult for you to present us with an awful lot of examples: Everybody claims that ISIS aren't Muslims! I can imagine that you can find Muslims who will claim that ISIS aren't good Muslims or real Muslims, much the same way that most Christians will distance themselves from the Christianity of Anders Behring Breivik, but apart from that who else does? Did Obama claim that ISIS weren't Muslims? Does Trump?

Quote:
So other than the absolute insane extremes such as ISIS, we are told all of Islam is not just simply conforming to the mean of human behaviour but actually exceeds it, so much so it is worthy of a special title all of its own - The Religion Of Peace. Ironic, when you think that Islam incorporates by far the most violent and intolerant ideologies in the world today.

I can think of a lot of other "violent and intolerant ideologies in the world today," white supremacism, for example, which has proven to be far more violent in my part of the world, i.e. Scandinavia, than Muslim extremism, which Scandinavians, for the same reason, tend to fear more than Muslim extremists. The Scandinavians who fear ordinary Muslims are fortunately a minority.


ETA: I can see that Obama at one point made the claim: Strong reaction to Obama statement: 'ISIL is not Islamic' (CNN, Sep. 11, 2014), but the mainstream media, i.e. in this case the CNN, immediately pointed out that they may have sympathized with his intentions, i.e. to distinguish between Muslims and Islamic extremists, but they didn't think that his statement was correct.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 25th February 2019 at 10:08 AM.
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2019, 09:43 AM   #260
carlitos
"ms divertido"
 
carlitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 19,488
Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
This post prompted a lot of responses, most of which impress me as vacuous posturing based on binary thinking.

Responsibility lies with the killers of course. But that doesn't negate cause and effect. An imperfect example: If an attractive, 16 year old girl wearing skimpy clothing says she's going to a party at R Kelly's house (or Jeffrey Epstein's if you prefer) I have no problem telling her that's an idiotic, high-risk decision and she's asking for trouble. But if that trouble occurs, of course the ultimate blame lies with the perp.

It's entirely possible that the Danish publication stupidly and provocatively placed a target on the backs of traveling Danes, while at the same time the ultimate blame lies with the perps. These concepts aren't contradictory.
The above is quite sensible.
carlitos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2019, 09:53 AM   #261
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,777
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I thought the rationalizing was the coping mechanism for resolving the dissonance, rather than the dissonance itself?

I found the interview with James Randi that I was talking about in post 253. It's called Still 'Amazing': A Conversation with James Randi (CSICOP's Skeptical Inquirer, March/April 2017), and he was talking about Martin Gardner. It's at the beginning of the interview.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2019, 09:54 AM   #262
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,777
Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
The above is quite sensible.

I agree.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2019, 09:57 AM   #263
Archie Gemmill Goal
Philosopher
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 5,520
Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
I tend not to listen to what they media has to say, and would gladly invite others to join me, but people will be people.

I think it can go both ways, some news outlets would have us believe that ISIS are planning to tunnel beneath our homes and behead our garden gnomes, while other outlets would have us believe that we're the problem, and we're responsible for the actions of radical Islamist extremists, and I'd say both sides are full of crap.
The media has done very little except propagate Islamophobia for years in the UK. Of course the resident racists don't think they go far enough bit then they wouldn't would they?

The same people get their news from Tommy Robinson's twitter feed and UKIP leaflets
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2019, 10:00 AM   #264
Archie Gemmill Goal
Philosopher
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 5,520
Originally Posted by dann View Post
OK, Baron. It's time again for me to ask for evidence:
Who declares that ISIS aren't Muslims? You claim that there's not only a big rush to declare that they aren't, but it's actually "foisted upon us by everybody," so it shouldn't be too difficult for you to present us with an awful lot of examples: Everybody claims that ISIS aren't Muslims!




I can think of a lot of other "violent and intolerant ideologies in the world today," white supremacism, for example, which has proven to be far more violent in my part of the world, i.e. Scandinavia, than Muslim extremism, which Scandinavians, for the same reason, tend to fear more than Muslim extremists. The Scandinavians who fear ordinary Muslims are fortunately a minority.
no no.... white people don't have violent ideologies. They just have lone wolves, mentally ill people and assorted crazies. Its only THEM that have ideologies.
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2019, 10:02 AM   #265
Doubt
Philosopher
 
Doubt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,888
Cities I have spent more than 24 hours in Europe:

Copenhagen
Stockholm
Berlin
Bamberg
Garmich
Frankfurt
Sulmona
Rome
Swiebodzin
Yaroslavl
Tolyatti
London
Amsterdam

Actual time various from 24 hours to almost 2 years in the case of Bamberg. I did not include places where I spent less than a day or rural areas such as military training areas. Years involved are from the mid 80's to 2017. Number of places where they seemed to have some wide eyed innocence about the potential for Islamic terrorism is none of them. The one country were they might just be overdoing it was Russia.

The idea that any guy on the internet spouting ideas about Scandinavian countries he has probably only seen on a computer screen in his mother's basement is laughably stupid.

The only dumber idea is when my fellow Americans try to tell me about how Dearborn Michigan is now run under Sharia law. I used to work there and it is pretty easy to find strip joints and liquor stores on google maps let alone what you can see on street view.
__________________
Doubt world tour locations:

Detroit, Mexico, Detroit, Mexico....
Repeat for all of 2017 except when on vacation.
Doubt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2019, 10:17 AM   #266
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,777
Originally Posted by Doubt View Post
The only dumber idea is when my fellow Americans try to tell me about how Dearborn Michigan is now run under Sharia law. I used to work there and it is pretty easy to find strip joints and liquor stores on google maps let alone what you can see on street view.

Yes, but they are Halal strip joints selling Halal liquor!
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2019, 10:20 AM   #267
rdwight
Critical Thinker
 
rdwight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 430
Originally Posted by dann View Post
No, no way at all:

It almost goes without saying that the he coward who published the Muhammed drawings still pretends to be a freedom fighter even though he would never do anything to upset the (cultural) Christian minority in Denmark and went after the Muslims merely because he expected it to serve his own interests at at the time. This was the actual 'freedom fighter' part of the story:

And some of the cartoonist knew about this and knew about the real purpose of Jyllands-Posten's stunt, of course. I've already told you about this, but here you'll find more details:

These are some of the things that racists abroad don't know and that racists in Denmark don't want to know. (Of course, racists abroad also don't want to know them.)
You are not addressing my point. Is there any indication their nationality played a roll in this? Any mention of said drawings being a cause? Anything at all to bring this up as if it pertains to this case?

I see no statistical evidence to back baylor's position, just like I see no evidence at all to go down the rabbit hole with your view. There is nothing there to suggest they would have been safer or treated differently had those images never been published.
rdwight is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2019, 10:27 AM   #268
Doubt
Philosopher
 
Doubt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,888
Talking

Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes, but they are Halal strip joints selling Halal liquor!
The G-Burqas are hot!
__________________
Doubt world tour locations:

Detroit, Mexico, Detroit, Mexico....
Repeat for all of 2017 except when on vacation.
Doubt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2019, 10:30 AM   #269
rdwight
Critical Thinker
 
rdwight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 430
Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
This post prompted a lot of responses, most of which impress me as vacuous posturing based on binary thinking.

Responsibility lies with the killers of course. But that doesn't negate cause and effect. An imperfect example: If an attractive, 16 year old girl wearing skimpy clothing says she's going to a party at R Kelly's house (or Jeffrey Epstein's if you prefer) I have no problem telling her that's an idiotic, high-risk decision and she's asking for trouble. But if that trouble occurs, of course the ultimate blame lies with the perp.

It's entirely possible that the Danish publication stupidly and provocatively placed a target on the backs of traveling Danes, while at the same time the ultimate blame lies with the perps. These concepts aren't contradictory.
Do you think your examples match the situation? Backpacking in the mountains anywhere comes with a certain amount of risk. I really haven't seen anyone point to specifics of how these women increased their risk. I also think calling them naive is a stretch. I assume they recognized there are risks, but like most people were optimistic it wouldn't happen to them. If we are going to call that naive, then every tourist that gets killed was naive because they put themselves in a place where the crime happened.

As for the publication placing a target on their backs, I haven't seen anything at all pointing to that yet. I guess everyone will speculate with their favorite position, dann's being the newspaper, others being safety around muslims in foreign countries. I just can't see getting much out of this besides they were unlucky and bad things happened.
rdwight is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2019, 10:31 AM   #270
baron
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,627
Originally Posted by dann View Post
OK, Baron. It's time again for me to ask for evidence:
Who declares that ISIS aren't Muslims?
Well, the former president of the United States for one

Quote:
No religion is responsible for terrorism
Quote:
ISIL's actions represent no faith, least of all the Muslim faith...
https://www.vox.com/2015/2/19/8065143/obama-isis-islam

https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov...-rahman-kassig

Originally Posted by dann View Post
You claim that there's not only a big rush to declare that they aren't, but it's actually "foisted upon us by everybody," so it shouldn't be too difficult for you to present us with an awful lot of examples
I'm not wasting my time presenting you with a lot of anything, do your own homework, but it became so prevalent that the likes of the BBC's Head of Religion and the Archbishop of Canterbury actually spoke out against its widespread use and absurdity.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a7060871.html

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/p...-a7427096.html

Originally Posted by dann View Post
Did Obama claim that ISIS weren't Muslims?
Yes, as I just demonstrated.

Originally Posted by dann View Post
I can think of a lot of other "violent and intolerant ideologies in the world today," white supremacism, for example, which has proven to be far more violent in my part of the world, i.e. Scandinavia, than Muslim extremism, which Scandinavians, for the same reason, tend to fear more than Muslim extremists. The Scandinavians who fear ordinary Muslims are fortunately a minority.
Yeah, well you'll learn the same as everybody else, and then you'd wish you'd listened.

Originally Posted by dann View Post
ETA: I can see that Obama at one point made the claim: Strong reaction to Obama statement: 'ISIL is not Islamic' (CNN, Sep. 11, 2014), but the mainstream media, i.e. in this case the CNN, immediately pointed out that they may have sympathized with his intentions, i.e. to distinguish between Muslims and Islamic extremists, but they didn't think that his statement was correct.
There you go. You answered your own question. Good job I didn't waste too much time on it.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2019, 10:49 AM   #271
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure...
Posts: 8,964
Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Considering just about every person commenting on the topic thinks the same thing I do about the ignorance of Western women, yes. Nearly every comment on the YouTube video and article have stated that these girls were brainwashed by Western propaganda. You haven't even put forth an argument stating otherwise.
That'll be because the comments of racist cockwombles are proof of nothing but their own cockwomblery.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2019, 11:24 AM   #272
GlennB
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
 
GlennB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Arcadia, Greece
Posts: 24,269
Originally Posted by Doubt View Post
The idea that any guy on the internet spouting ideas about Scandinavian countries he has probably only seen on a computer screen in his mother's basement is laughably stupid.

The only dumber idea is when my fellow Americans try to tell me about how Dearborn Michigan is now run under Sharia law. I used to work there and it is pretty easy to find strip joints and liquor stores on google maps let alone what you can see on street view.
I think it was Baylor who tried to tell us that certain areas of London were Muslim "no-go areas", and mentioned Camden Town, among others. That area is thick with pubs and places that sell pork-based food. Hijabs strictly optional.
__________________
"Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut
GlennB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2019, 11:37 AM   #273
varwoche
Penultimate Amazing
 
varwoche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 12,610
Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
Do you think your examples match the situation? Backpacking in the mountains anywhere comes with a certain amount of risk. I really haven't seen anyone point to specifics of how these women increased their risk. I also think calling them naive is a stretch.
No the example doesn't match -- it involves three parties. Close enough to make the point though.

Quote:
I assume they recognized there are risks, but like most people were optimistic it wouldn't happen to them. If we are going to call that naive, then every tourist that gets killed was naive because they put themselves in a place where the crime happened.
I'm not calling them naive -- I don't know enough to form an opinion.
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
varwoche is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2019, 11:43 AM   #274
Delphic Oracle
Master Poster
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 2,875
Originally Posted by baron View Post
Yep, you wouldn't want to tar a huge group of people with the same brush. Just imagine if you did that with, say, Trump voters. Imagine the bigotry, violence and terrorism that you would cause.
Where did I do any of that?

Stay on subject.
Delphic Oracle is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2019, 12:00 PM   #275
rdwight
Critical Thinker
 
rdwight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 430
Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
No the example doesn't match -- it involves three parties. Close enough to make the point though.

I'm not calling them naive -- I don't know enough to form an opinion.
I understand your point but I don't feel it's a good representation. Maybe something like sky diving would be a better example. Known risks, but nothing done on a persons part to add to the danger beforehand, just bad luck on something bad happening.
rdwight is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2019, 12:36 PM   #276
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,777
Originally Posted by baron View Post
Well, the former president of the United States for one

https://www.vox.com/2015/2/19/8065143/obama-isis-islam

https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov...-rahman-kassig

I'm not wasting my time presenting you with a lot of anything, do your own homework, but it became so prevalent that the likes of the BBC's Head of Religion and the Archbishop of Canterbury actually spoke out against its widespread use and absurdity.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a7060871.html

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/p...-a7427096.html

Yes, as I just demonstrated.

Yeah, well you'll learn the same as everybody else, and then you'd wish you'd listened.

There you go. You answered your own question. Good job I didn't waste too much time on it.

That is so pathetic, Baron. "There you go."
You probably didn't "waste" much time on it because you soon realized that you couldn't come up with anything other than what I'd posted myself: The one sentence from Obama! Your claim was "everybody", and in particular the media. You haven't come up with one single thing, and your two quotations don't say that ISIS aren't Muslim. They only say that ISIS doesn't represent Muslims, i.e. Islam. You are embarrassing your own claims with these quotes!

"I'm not wasting my time presenting you with a lot of anything, do your own homework, but it became so prevalent that the likes of the BBC's Head of Religion and the Archbishop of Canterbury actually spoke out against its widespread use and absurdity."

Indeed, you aren't 'wasting your time' trying to prove the point because you can't. Your claim has been utterly humiliated and you weren't able to find a single thing - other than the one Obama quotation that I found for you, but I guess that to you Obama is everybody ...
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2019, 12:38 PM   #277
Baylor
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 7,278
Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
no no.... white people don't have violent ideologies. They just have lone wolves, mentally ill people and assorted crazies. Its only THEM that have ideologies.
We have grown men on this board who say this as if this is some great retort. "There are evil people in all parts of the world," is something you hear in a 5th grade social studies class.

What some people, like these two girls, are too naive to understand is that different rules apply in different parts of the world. And you need to be cognizant of these rules. I don't understand why this is controversial or hard to grasp.

Here's a warning Chinese gives its citizens when visiting London. This is blasphemous, according to the religious creed of people like dann.



I must admit, it must be weird being a non-Westerner and seeing white people get worked up over stupid stuff like this.
Baylor is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2019, 12:43 PM   #278
Baylor
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 7,278
Originally Posted by Doubt View Post
The only dumber idea is when my fellow Americans try to tell me about how Dearborn Michigan is now run under Sharia law. I used to work there and it is pretty easy to find strip joints and liquor stores on google maps let alone what you can see on street view.
Hyperbole. When an American says "Dearborn is under sharia law," she means, Dearborn is populated by Muslims. No one is surprised Muslims enjoy Western indulgences. But they don't welcome people who are not like them into their communities -- what you would call "racist."
Baylor is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2019, 12:49 PM   #279
Baylor
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 7,278
Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
These two girls, unfortunately, were way too naive, and that's what it comes down to here for me. If you think it means see, I told ya all Muslims are killers, well that's no less naive than thinking you can go wandering about in the mountains of a foreign country and not come to harm. Over the last several years, there's been a few reports of backpackers being killed in many countries, and there were no religious fanatics in sight, just nutjobs. The world is full of nutjobs, and it certainly ain't limited to the Muslim community.

From what I can gather, you seem surprised that the world contains idiots, white idiots, black idiots, brown idiots, Christian idiots, Muslim idiots, Jewish idiots, etc, etc. I don't know what to tell you other than wake up and smell the human excrement.
See my previous post regarding this. To sum up: Different rules apply in different parts of the world. To teach young people otherwise is a betrayal of trust.

American women are less susceptible (but still susceptible) as most were given a front row seat at the multicultural **** show. By everything I've seen, people from the whitest parts of the world are most likely to be taken in by "humanity is one giant rainbow" propaganda.

Last edited by Baylor; 25th February 2019 at 12:53 PM.
Baylor is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2019, 12:52 PM   #280
Doubt
Philosopher
 
Doubt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,888
Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Hyperbole. When an American says "Dearborn is under sharia law," she means, Dearborn is populated by Muslims. No one is surprised Muslims enjoy Western indulgences. But they don't welcome people who are not like them into their communities -- what you would call "racist."
No, they actually want believe that and produce videos selectively edited to make people believe it.

Dearborn is about 45% Arab but only about 29% Muslims. And few if any are interested in Sharia. Now before we go any further, do you mean by "their community" Does that include Dearborn?
__________________
Doubt world tour locations:

Detroit, Mexico, Detroit, Mexico....
Repeat for all of 2017 except when on vacation.
Doubt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:35 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.