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Tags robert kraft , sex scandals , sports incidents

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Old 26th February 2019, 06:54 AM   #161
William Parcher
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I don't know what to say. DM reported him as being the name that is bigger than Kraft. Maybe they think that because he is involved in big politics.

Maybe it's Kraft who is the biggest name.
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Old 26th February 2019, 06:56 AM   #162
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John Childs is not a familiar name to me.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.blo...titution-sting

Private equity rich guy apparently.

I'm going to guess he's not a "bigger name" than Robert Kraft to most people.
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Old 26th February 2019, 07:05 AM   #163
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We could ask the question...

Who was the person who actually decided that there was a bigger name than Kraft, and according to what criteria did they decide?
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Old 26th February 2019, 07:07 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
We could ask the question...

Who was the person who actually decided that there was a bigger name than Kraft, and according to what criteria did they decide?
*Michael Cohen sits shaking his head with arms folded across chest*
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Old 26th February 2019, 07:16 AM   #165
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The more basic question is if there was a "bigger name" then Kraft... why did the news bury the lead so to speak? Why not open with the "Bigger name" and then mention Kraft?
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Old 26th February 2019, 07:22 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The more basic question is if there was a "bigger name" then Kraft... why did the news bury the lead so to speak? Why not open with the "Bigger name" and then mention Kraft?
It's possible that police leaked Kraft's name before any other name and before the full list was available to reporters.
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Old 26th February 2019, 07:23 AM   #167
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IIRC, Kraft's name was leaked to the press before his arrest warrant was issued.
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Old 26th February 2019, 09:03 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Perhaps he was counting on not being recognized by the prostitute. A "high class" prostitute might be more likely to recognize him and figure out who he is in real life. At a place like this, just another unremarkable old man.
... whose chauffeur drives him around in a Bentley.
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Old 26th February 2019, 09:11 AM   #169
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In (a very tiny) amount of defense he could just be one of the rich people who has literally no idea how the world works and honestly thought getting dropped off in a 225,000 dollar car by a chauffeur at a strip mall wouldn't be seen as weird.
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Old 26th February 2019, 09:12 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
It often is just two consenting adults making a business deal. A person has access to an event like the Superbowl. They say to another adult, "There's good money involved if I get you into the event so you can have sex for money with rich people. We can split the money."

The second adult consents. They head off to the Superbowl, make a bunch of money but get raided by police. One of those consenting adults is now a human trafficker.

Human trafficing is a catchall phrase that makes innocuous activity sound really bad in order to help with conviction rates.
If innocuous activities are being treated as trafficking in the way you suggest then I expect (1) an example that isn't so completely asinine that it defies credulity and (2) citations, what a concept!
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Old 26th February 2019, 09:21 AM   #171
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Consent is not the same thing as enjoyment or "being really into it."

A prostitute who doesn't like prostituting but is still an open and willing participant in the transaction isn't a sex slave, they're just a person who hates their job. There's a support for that. It's called everybody. We meet at the bar every night after work.
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Old 26th February 2019, 09:42 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
If innocuous activities are being treated as trafficking in the way you suggest then I expect (1) an example that isn't so completely asinine that it defies credulity and (2) citations, what a concept!
I see claims made all the time that the vast majority of prostitutes are victims of human traficking. However, the evidence offered in support of these claim is laughably slim to non-existent. As far as I am concerned, the burden of proof is on the people making these claims, and they have not met that burden.
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Old 26th February 2019, 10:00 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
I see claims made all the time that the vast majority of prostitutes are victims of human traficking. However, the evidence offered in support of these claim is laughably slim to non-existent. As far as I am concerned, the burden of proof is on the people making these claims, and they have not met that burden.

I'm not sure what you are waiting for, a trial and verdict I guess? The police claim to have video of the traffickers picking up the women at the airport, and corresponding video with those same men moving the women around from spa to spa. They are only busting the johns and the traffickers, not the women. The conditions were allegedly deplorable, and the whole reason that they were found out was because of women cooking dinner where they lived - at a strip mall massage place.



Here is the sheriff William Snyder describing the Jupiter spa where the bust took place.






Quote:
KELLY: Good afternoon. So what tipped you off to sex trafficking in these massage parlors?


SNYDER: The original tip came in by way of a state health care worker. And when the worker went in, she noticed suitcases and other indications that perhaps somebody was living in this small storefront. She called us at the sheriff's office, and we began what turned into an eight-month investigation.


KELLY: You described it as a small storefront massage parlor. We're talking brothels in a strip mall. Describe the conditions that these women were living and working in.


SNYDER: They were staying inside the massage parlor for 24 hours a day, seven days a week. They were actually sleeping on the tables where they provided the illicit sexual activity.




...


SNYDER: Well, as you and I speak, one of the women that's here, we're treating her as a victim. She's in protective custody. She said that she was offered a job making a lot of money in America in a nail salon. And before she knew it, she came here and found herself in the sex trafficking industry in massage parlors.


We have NGOs helping us along with Mandarin-speaking interpreters, and we're doing our very best to try to get these women some kind of help. You alluded to it earlier, and it's true, they tend not to want to cooperate because of the coercion point. And oftentimes, and this woman said it, she feels that her family in China is at risk if she cooperates with law enforcement.






Sherriff on how they discovered the spa had people living and eating there:
Quote:
According to Snyder, investigators were tipped off through a complaint filed by the Health Department in July 2018.


“They were cooking on the back steps of the business. These women were sleeping in massage parlors, on the massage tables and had no access to transportation,” said Synder, who noted the victims were averaging eight clients a day. “If you do the math, that is about 1,500 men a year, with no days off.”

more


Quote:
"Over my dead body will any of these women be prosecuted," said Snyder, adding that the women are currently undergoing mental and physical examinations at local treatment facilities.

...



Snyder said it was clear the women were trafficked, hoping to silence talk of the possibility they were consensual sex workers. "These women are treated as human chattel and they are moved around. "Any notion out there that this is some kind of local prostitution or that these women are willing participants is categorically untrue," said Snyder.



...



"They were almost in a zombie-like appearance, it's really sad. Their lives are ruined," said Snyder. The women were performing sexual acts on a minimum of eight johns a day, according to Snyder, with no breaks or days off.



"There are men that went in there and utilized these women's services that would not have allowed their dog to be in such wretched conditions," said Snyder.




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Old 26th February 2019, 10:01 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
It often is just two consenting adults making a business deal. A person has access to an event like the Superbowl. They say to another adult, "There's good money involved if I get you into the event so you can have sex for money with rich people. We can split the money."

The second adult consents. They head off to the Superbowl, make a bunch of money but get raided by police. One of those consenting adults is now a human trafficker.

Human trafficing is a catchall phrase that makes innocuous activity sound really bad in order to help with conviction rates.
except of course that in this case the workers at the shop seem to be rather coerced with the issue of them living in the massage parlor.
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Old 26th February 2019, 10:10 AM   #175
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Oh noes! Kraft Legacy tainted!!
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Old 26th February 2019, 10:10 AM   #176
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In this case we have women charged with both trafficking and prostitution. Apparently, trafficking is not lucrative enough that you can then go onwards without prostituting yourself for money. Or, this is more complicated than can be easily understood from our armchairs.
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Old 26th February 2019, 10:28 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
In this case we have women charged with both trafficking and prostitution. Apparently, trafficking is not lucrative enough that you can then go onwards without prostituting yourself for money.
Or alternatively, they get promoted to 'management' after a while, but are still required to turn tricks every now and then.
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Old 26th February 2019, 10:34 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by timhau View Post
Or alternatively, they get promoted to 'management' after a while, but are still required to turn tricks every now and then.
Well, "management" might be the racketeering charges that we see here also. Is the trafficking charge for procuring girls in China or picking them up at the American airport, or what?
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Old 26th February 2019, 10:59 AM   #179
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Quote:
KELLY: You described it as a small storefront massage parlor. We're talking brothels in a strip mall. Describe the conditions that these women were living and working in.

SNYDER: They were staying inside the massage parlor for 24 hours a day, seven days a week. They were actually sleeping on the tables where they provided the illicit sexual activity.
There is an underlying fundamental issue that must be mentioned. These women cannot use the English language and Americans cannot use the Mandarin language. If they leave the spa for any reason they will have great difficulties because nobody out there will be able to communicate with them. This would still be the situation if these women weren't trafficked and were doing this with full consent and knowledge of what goes on at the spa.

So they all sleep and cook at the spa. What would be the alternative here? House, apartment, motel, street, or what? Is the madam supposed to provide housing for all of them? Do they pay rent? They can't use the English language. Even a non-trafficked prostitute who comes with full consent and knowledge still has to deal with housing and utilities and daily needs and whatever else.
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Old 26th February 2019, 11:05 AM   #180
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Yes, the alternative to living in a strip mall massage parlor would indeed be a house, apartment, motel, street or what.
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Old 26th February 2019, 11:09 AM   #181
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Quote:
SNYDER: Well, as you and I speak, one of the women that's here, we're treating her as a victim. She's in protective custody. She said that she was offered a job making a lot of money in America in a nail salon. And before she knew it, she came here and found herself in the sex trafficking industry in massage parlors.
That sounds great. It's not anything illegal and seems to have nothing to do with trafficking.

But where was this nail girl going to live and cook her food and can she afford rent and daily needs? How is she going to live in America when we cannot use Mandarin and she cannot use English?

Was the nail salon gig also to be a human trafficking thing where she ends up never leaving the nail salon?
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Old 26th February 2019, 11:30 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
I'm not sure what you are waiting for, a trial and verdict I guess? The police claim to have video of the traffickers picking up the women at the airport...
I believe CORed was addressing the "vast majority of prostitutes [in the US]," not just the ones in this particular case.
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Old 26th February 2019, 12:09 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
I believe CORed was addressing the "vast majority of prostitutes [in the US]," not just the ones in this particular case.
Correct. I am not questioning the notion that human trafficking happens, and it looks like this particular case may be an example. I can also say that I have knows a few women who worked in (Korean) massage parlors who did not live in the parlor, and, as far as I could tell, were doing so voluntarily.

If the girls are truly vicitims of human trafficking, kudos to the cops for not prosecuting. Usually the women actually providing the services are the ones who bear the brunt of any law enforcement action.

I hope it goes without saying that, to whatever degree it actually happens, women being forced into prostitution is a terrible thing. And by forced, I mean, forced through threats of violence, not "forced" by economic circumstances.

Too a large degree, I think claims of "human trafficking" have been used by law enforcement and religious fanatics as a means manufacturing victims for what is for the most part a victimless crime, to justify continued existence and prosecution of prostitution laws.
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Old 26th February 2019, 12:39 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
That sounds great. It's not anything illegal and seems to have nothing to do with trafficking.

But where was this nail girl going to live and cook her food and can she afford rent and daily needs? How is she going to live in America when we cannot use Mandarin and she cannot use English?

Was the nail salon gig also to be a human trafficking thing where she ends up never leaving the nail salon?
You seem incredulous about immigrants finding places to live in America, and I really can't figure out why.



Also - yes, sometimes nail salons, domestic help, farm work or urban sweatshop work is human trafficking too.
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Old 26th February 2019, 02:04 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
You seem incredulous about immigrants finding places to live in America, and I really can't figure out why.
Not incredulous at all. But these people must be surrounded by others who use their language. They might be (rightfully) fearful to leave the others who use their language. In this instance, fearful to leave the spa because nobody out there uses Mandarin.

Quote:
Also - yes, sometimes nail salons, domestic help, farm work or urban sweatshop work is human trafficking too.
She said she wanted to work in a nail salon. We don't know if she understood that she would be trafficked with the nail salon. We don't know if she would have agreed saying in Mandarin, "Traffick me. Please, traffick me."
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Old 26th February 2019, 04:12 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Was the nail salon gig also to be a human trafficking thing where she ends up never leaving the nail salon?
What nail salon gig? The fictional one the victim was promised as a bait-and-switch before she ended up at the massage parlor?
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Old 26th February 2019, 04:28 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Not incredulous at all. But these people must be surrounded by others who use their language. They might be (rightfully) fearful to leave the others who use their language. In this instance, fearful to leave the spa because nobody out there uses Mandarin.

She said she wanted to work in a nail salon. We don't know if she understood that she would be trafficked with the nail salon. We don't know if she would have agreed saying in Mandarin, "Traffick me. Please, traffick me."
Is this bizarre JAQ part of your comedy stylings?
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Old 26th February 2019, 05:03 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
What nail salon gig? The fictional one the victim was promised as a bait-and-switch before she ended up at the massage parlor?
Nail gigs are either fake (this instance) or real. There are thousands of nail salons in America. Have those girls been trafficked? If they cannot use English do they stay in one place and never leave?

The point is, if this woman had gotten her wish of working in a nail salon, she could have still been a victim of human trafficking.
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Old 26th February 2019, 05:06 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Is this bizarre JAQ part of your comedy stylings?
Yes, it's nothing but a pathetic horror show. Nothing I say or ask means anything ever. I expect that you will never engage me again. Never again.
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Old 26th February 2019, 05:40 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Yes, it's nothing but a pathetic horror show. Nothing I say or ask means anything ever. I expect that you will never engage me again. Never again.
You're just not funny. Please stop.
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Old 26th February 2019, 05:46 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
You're just not funny. Please stop.
Or is he edgy. I second the please stop.
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Old 26th February 2019, 06:31 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
In (a very tiny) amount of defense he could just be one of the rich people who has literally no idea how the world works and honestly thought getting dropped off in a 225,000 dollar car by a chauffeur at a strip mall wouldn't be seen as weird.
Perhaps he was just looking for some Grey Poupon?
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Old 26th February 2019, 06:41 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
If innocuous activities are being treated as trafficking in the way you suggest then I expect (1) an example that isn't so completely asinine that it defies credulity and (2) citations, what a concept!
I can give you a citation about the sorts of arguments around these issues:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_wo...s#Legalization

Quote:
Legalization

Sex worker advocates who are fighting for legalization or decriminalization of prostitution contend that criminalizing consensual sex acts among adults creates a black market which worsens the problem of forced human trafficking rather than reducing it. They decry the paternalistic attitude of what they disparagingly call "rescue missions", law enforcement raids that regard all sex workers as in need of "saving" fail to distinguish the minority of sex workers who are coerced from the vast majority who engage in sex work voluntarily.[16] Furthermore, liberal feminists such as Ronald Weitzer and Gayle Rubin, argue that the definition of sex work as inherently violent has created a “moral panic” that influences political discourse.[9][17] They contend that this "panic" has led to the construction of a trafficking victim who may actually be a woman migrating for work. These feminists argue that this can backfire because it does not protect those women who voluntarily enter into sex work.[16]
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Old 26th February 2019, 08:11 PM   #194
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See? I'm not ignorant I'm a feminist.
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Old 26th February 2019, 08:20 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
I'm not sure what you are waiting for, a trial and verdict I guess? The police claim to have video of the traffickers picking up the women at the airport, and corresponding video with those same men moving the women around from spa to spa. They are only busting the johns and the traffickers, not the women. The conditions were allegedly deplorable, and the whole reason that they were found out was because of women cooking dinner where they lived - at a strip mall massage place.

Here is the sheriff William Snyder describing the Jupiter spa where the bust took place.

Sherriff on how they discovered the spa had people living and eating there:

more
I just wanted to acknowledge this post. That all does look quite damning assuming that it's all true.

If they were not just working at the massage parlor but actually living there too, it strongly suggests some kind of sex trafficking operation.
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Old 26th February 2019, 08:39 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
I think it's important to look at the whole thing from beginning to end though for a fuller understanding. It's pretty clear that this sheriff is some kind of moral crusader. I listened to the 5-minute audio clip. Towards the end he says:

Quote:
And what I said before, there's no locks on the door - there are locks. There's the coercion point that keeps them in bondage. And the person with the key is not the trafficker. It's the men who go into these parlors and avail themselves of this human misery. In the three groups we have - the women, the traffickers and the men - I believe the men are the most guilty.
So that would explain why he let the whole investigation last for months, while the women were in capitivity the whole time, 24 hours/day 7 days/week, having unprotected sex with 8 to 15 men per day for at least 6 months (according to the sheriff). So that he could ensare and arrest more of the "monsters" who were paying for it. Because he thinks they are even worse than the traffickers who decieved and coerced these women.

So the men who paid for sex, as he sees it, have the highest culpability, above even that of the traffickers. They would have had evidence to arrest the traffickers much earlier, but that would be the end of the investigation, and the end of the opportunity to arrest more "johns".
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Old 26th February 2019, 08:51 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Is this bizarre JAQ part of your comedy stylings?
Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
You're just not funny. Please stop.
ditto
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Old 26th February 2019, 11:24 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
The point is, if this woman had gotten her wish of working in a nail salon, she could have still been a victim of human trafficking.
You mean, the traffickers could have imprisoned her at a nail salon like she was baited with, rather than taken to a massage parlor instead? Yes, I think everybody realizes this is true. The traffickers could theoretically have sequestered any given victim at any front business. Who is disputing this?
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Old 27th February 2019, 12:20 AM   #199
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So here's a problem: If, as they say, this is human trafficking, why has nobody been charged with human trafficking?

From Reason:

'No Allegations of Human Trafficking' and 'Women Could've Walked Out' In Florida Massage-Parlor Prostitution Stings

Quote:
Authorities are walking back big claims about an international human-trafficking ring involving Patriots owner Robert Kraft.

Elizabeth Nolan Brown|Feb. 25, 2019 6:30 pm
Quote:
Six months is a long time, however, and it's hard to reconcile the cops' timeline with their heroic rhetoric. If the women employed at these businesses were really the victims of "modern slavery," why did police take six months to get them out of that situation? Why did it require repeat intimate undercover visits and building misdemeanor prostitution charges against all sorts of random men before these "heroes" decided to intervene?

It's one of many elements that don't add up with what prosecutors are saying in public and what's actually happened in the case.

At a press conference (partially aired on CNN) today, Palm Beach District Attorney Dave Aronberg spent most of his time talking about the theoretical horrors that could occur in situations like this. "Modern day slavery," as Aronberg called it, "can happen anywhere, including in the peaceful community of Jupiter."

However, no human trafficking charges were filed among the hundreds of (current and coming) prostitution charges, he admitted, adding that first-time offenders (like Robert Kraft) are "very unlikely to get any significant" time behind bars.

"There's no allegation that any defendant engaged in human trafficking," said Aronberg.

Police keep calling the women that worked at Orchids of Asia and the other spas that were part of the sting "trafficking victims." But most have declined to cooperate with police as such.
There's more in the rest of the article.

If everything the sheriff claims is true, then they allowed sex slaves to be raped 8 or more times per day for months on end without intervening. Just so they could bust more "johns". Yet nobody has been charged with human trafficking.
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Old 27th February 2019, 12:38 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
So here's a problem: If, as they say, this is human trafficking, why has nobody been charged with human trafficking?

From Reason:

'No Allegations of Human Trafficking' and 'Women Could've Walked Out' In Florida Massage-Parlor Prostitution Stings



There's more in the rest of the article.

If everything the sheriff claims is true, then they allowed sex slaves to be raped 8 or more times per day for months on end without intervening. Just so they could bust more "johns". Yet nobody has been charged with human trafficking.
So Reason is a Russkie troll site? Who knew?
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