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Old 2nd March 2019, 11:15 PM   #1
a_unique_person
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The right to repair

Want to fix your tractor? Tough luck, say some manufacturers

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-0...epair/10864852

Quote:
The 'right to repair' concept has made headlines around the world, and applies to products such as phones, cars,*tractors and other farm machinery.

Ms Wiseman said the movement began in Massachusetts in 2012.

"Legislation was passed that basically required manufacturers of vehicles to release instructions about how people could make repairs to the vehicle if they so needed."
I would add the right to get your car serviced by the business you choose.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 11:37 PM   #2
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What about parts the manufacturers simply refuse to keep making?

I have an otherwise perfectly good dryer that has worked for 30 years but now won't start. The manufacturer no longer makes the replacement part.

I have an otherwise perfectly good Ricoh laser copier in the garage that needs a drum that is no longer made.

Couldn't get a new battery for an otherwise good camera.

And on and on it goes.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 12:48 AM   #3
Checkmite
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
What about parts the manufacturers simply refuse to keep making?

I have an otherwise perfectly good dryer that has worked for 30 years but now won't start. The manufacturer no longer makes the replacement part.

I have an otherwise perfectly good Ricoh laser copier in the garage that needs a drum that is no longer made.

Couldn't get a new battery for an otherwise good camera.

And on and on it goes.
That's a bit of a different subject; realistically, manufacturers can't be expected to keep making replacement parts for their products forever. Often third parties sell parts like that, but even they can only make them for as long as somebody somewhere is actually buying enough of them to make it worth it.

Where "right-to-repair" comes in is, particularly in the digital age, some manufacturers of computerized products are increasingly trying to limit the ability of third-parties to sell those parts and perform the repairs. And they're getting aggressive not just against those third parties, but against customers: some manufacturers are actually programming their products to stop working, completely and permanently, if they detect aftermarket component has been installed or a non-manufacturer-authorized repair performed.

Apple is the most visible example of this; they've gone so far as to push authorities to intercept third-party repair parts and prosecute the receivers for "counterfeit goods", like they were selling phony Guccis in a back alley somewhere.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 02:09 AM   #4
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Apple in Australia has been forced to replace faulty goods even if a third party attempted to repair them. They didn't like that.

Vehicle manufacturers incorporate encrypted systems in their vehicle management computers. Third parties can't maintain them.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 03:15 AM   #5
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There was a push by vehicle manufacturers in the UK around ten years or so ago to block the manufacture of third party replacements for brake shoes and pads, fan belts, shock absorbers etc on 'safety' grounds.
They wanted the govt to pass legislation so only their own parts could be fitted by their own official dealerships for reasons of safety.

It didn't fly.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 06:41 AM   #6
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Simple solution

If you want a right to repair, only purchase from people who can agree to it.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 10:13 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
What about parts the manufacturers simply refuse to keep making?

I have an otherwise perfectly good dryer that has worked for 30 years but now won't start. The manufacturer no longer makes the replacement part.

I have an otherwise perfectly good Ricoh laser copier in the garage that needs a drum that is no longer made.

Couldn't get a new battery for an otherwise good camera.

And on and on it goes.
Online sellers, third party component suppliers (whoever 'made' your dryer didn't make the parts) and soon make-shops using small scale CNC or (sigh) '3D printing'.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 11:37 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Simple solution

If you want a right to repair, only purchase from people who can agree to it.
Better solution: enshrine a right to repair as law, so nobody has to worry about people who don't want to agree to it.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 11:40 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
I would add the right to get your car serviced by the business you choose.
That was why, when I was looking to get a second car, I did not get a Tesla. From what I saw online, you don't take it to an authorized repair service, or try to do it yourself, they could disable your vehicle.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 12:02 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Better solution: enshrine a right to repair as law, so nobody has to worry about people who don't want to agree to it.
Does the state have a compelling reason to interfere? Does this solve the problem? Is it the least intrusive solution?
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Old 3rd March 2019, 12:23 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
That was why, when I was looking to get a second car, I did not get a Tesla. From what I saw online, you don't take it to an authorized repair service, or try to do it yourself, they could disable your vehicle.
I find this difficult to see actually happening
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Old 3rd March 2019, 12:26 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Online sellers, third party component suppliers (whoever 'made' your dryer didn't make the parts) and soon make-shops using small scale CNC or (sigh) '3D printing'.
At this point in time, I cannot find substitute parts for the dryer. As for the copier drum, I looked everywhere for that and never found one.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 12:30 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
That was why, when I was looking to get a second car, I did not get a Tesla. From what I saw online, you don't take it to an authorized repair service, or try to do it yourself, they could disable your vehicle.
That's the kind of behavior that makes this law necessary.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 12:50 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Couldn't get a new battery for an otherwise good camera.
What is the make and model of the camera and the part number on the battery?
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Old 3rd March 2019, 12:51 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Does the state have a compelling reason to interfere?
Yes.

Quote:
Does this solve the problem? Is it the least intrusive solution?
The devil is in the details, but possibly.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 01:50 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
What about parts the manufacturers simply refuse to keep making?

I have an otherwise perfectly good dryer that has worked for 30 years but now won't start. The manufacturer no longer makes the replacement part.

I have an otherwise perfectly good Ricoh laser copier in the garage that needs a drum that is no longer made.

Couldn't get a new battery for an otherwise good camera.

And on and on it goes.
Do you think it would be profitable for them to continue to make the parts?

Keeping machines that take up space, require maintenence, safety inspections and staff is kind of expensive for the tiny minority of people who take pride in keeping technology long past its best before date.

Or to put it another way.

Would you pay the cost of a new device for these parts? If not, it is not an issue of wanting the device, but wanting the company to dance to your tune. And in that case I do not believe they could take enough actions to please you regardless so the cheapest option for them is to not bother.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 01:54 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Better solution: enshrine a right to repair as law, so nobody has to worry about people who don't want to agree to it.
Your tractor blows up, you are permanently harmed or killed.

Assuming you took a modicum of effort to throw away a receipt, how do they prove if it was a mechanical fault of the machine, or a result of the repair?

Furthermore, do you not think this could impact efficiency of recalls? Popular modification, could easily seem to be a manufacturing flaw.

So for the small cost benefit or repairing yourself, you would be driving up the price of the products.

Doesn't seem people have thought this one through.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 02:00 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Does the state have a compelling reason to interfere?

Absolutely. The state establishes and protects property rights. Right to repair is a property rights issue; it fights an erosion of property rights in which what appears to be the sale of a product to a customer is treated by the seller as a limited license to use the product that the seller can revoke at will.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 02:22 PM   #19
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I can't believe we are arguing about the right to have laws to make sure anything we buy will work forever..

Horse and buggy whip owners are turning over in their graves.. (from laughter...)
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Old 3rd March 2019, 02:28 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Better solution: enshrine a right to repair as law, so nobody has to worry about people who don't want to agree to it.
Government regulation? You'd hardly expect someone who's bought into libertarianism to accept that, would you? Remember, the market will fix everything.
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 02:30 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Simple solution

If you want a right to repair, only purchase from people who can agree to it.
How about it's my property and I can do whatever the **** I want after I purchase it? I can't even believe this is even up for discussion, oh wait yes I can, follow the lobbyist cash trail.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 02:40 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I find this difficult to see actually happening
There are several youtube channels of folks that have purchased salvage teslas with the idea of repairing them. They do in fact have problems with their support. I don't think it's "disabled" to the point it wont run, but it is in reduced functionality. I'll have to go back and see what the details were.

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Old 3rd March 2019, 02:41 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
I can't believe we are arguing about the right to have laws to make sure anything we buy will work forever..
Who is arguing for that?
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Old 3rd March 2019, 02:46 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
I can't believe we are arguing about the right to have laws to make sure anything we buy will work forever..

Horse and buggy whip owners are turning over in their graves.. (from laughter...)
And I can't believe I'm agreeing with Zig. The right to repair refers to the tendency of manufacturers to want to be the only ones who *can* or who are *allowed* to attempt repairs. Like the scifi story where if you pry open the hood of your car, you find more sealed boxes containing the operative parts of the car. Right to Repair is people demanding the right to have a chance to be able to repair the items they own.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 02:50 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
I can't believe we are arguing about the right to have laws to make sure anything we buy will work forever..

Horse and buggy whip owners are turning over in their graves.. (from laughter...)
I don't think that's the issue. The issue is whether you -- the owner of the product -- should be able to have it repaired by anyone you trust. If you happen to own a horse-drawn buggy, you should not be required to discard it if the original manufacturer can't or won't repair it, or sets conditions that you find objectionable ("Dismantle your buggy, pack it in a crate no smaller than six feet on each side, and ship it via motor freight at your expense to our dedicated repair facility in La Paz, Bolivia."). Why shouldn't the same be true of smartphones, PCs, cars, washers, etc.? How much of a lifetime hold should the original seller have on you?
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Old 3rd March 2019, 02:54 PM   #26
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At one point Telsa sent out notice of an airbag recall. But if your car was registered as "unsupported", they wouldn't perform the repair unless the car was recertified (at a cost to the owner). The federal rules apparently require the repair to be done on cars that are "safe and drivable", with Telsa trying to say that the cars are not, while the owner says it is.

Also reports that salvage units brought to the dealer have had repairs refused and autopilot disabled.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 03:02 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Who is arguing for that?
Yeah! What if you just want to replace the home button on your iPhone and now the touch ID doesn't work because Apple doesn't like it?

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I AGREE
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Old 3rd March 2019, 03:06 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by BowlOfRed View Post
There are several youtube channels of folks that have purchased salvage teslas with the idea of repairing them. They do in fact have problems with their support. I don't think it's "disabled" to the point it wont run, but it is in reduced functionality. I'll have to go back and see what the details were.
When the car has a "salvage" title, isn't it considered a total wreck? It no longer exists as a functional vehicle. It's not surprising that the manufacturer doesn't want it back on the road. This is how scammers do things like buy the undamaged front and back ends of two different cars that were totaled in crashes, weld them together, "wash" the title, and sell them as normal used cars.

This is just not the same as a Tesla owner getting new brakes at a chain store.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 03:24 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
When the car has a "salvage" title, isn't it considered a total wreck? It no longer exists as a functional vehicle.
So the manufacturer is the only entity that gets to make the call?

The issue is that the manufacturer sets the prices on repair parts, and Telsa vehicles tend to have prices higher than many others. Therefore a relatively minor accident can have quoted repair costs that exceed the value of the vehicle. In this case the insurance will total the car and create a salvage title.

But that doesn't mean the car is unrepairable (perhaps at a cost much less than quoted), just that the manufacturer hasn't been paid for it.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 03:25 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
When the car has a "salvage" title, isn't it considered a total wreck? It no longer exists as a functional vehicle. It's not surprising that the manufacturer doesn't want it back on the road. This is how scammers do things like buy the undamaged front and back ends of two different cars that were totaled in crashes, weld them together, "wash" the title, and sell them as normal used cars.

This is just not the same as a Tesla owner getting new brakes at a chain store.
No that is not the case. A salvage title means, in most cases, that the car must be re-inspected before it can be registered, and that it will forever have a mark on its title. While there are undoubtedly scammers out there who wash titles and hide this fact, a salvaged vehicle can be driven and traded like any other. In certain cases a title is downgraded to "destroy," and that indeed means that the car can be used only for parts and never registered again. The rules for when this happens vary and are not always consistent.

I have actually done this - bought a totalled car with a salvage title, and registered the repaired vehicle. I later sold it too, though for peanuts as it was well worn out by then. The whole deal was entirely above board. An inspector came around to my place and checked the vehicle out, and provided the necessary paperwork. It was quite a big job involving welding in a new roof and a lot of other body and glass work, but even with the purchase of tools and parts I got the resulting car for about half its going price, and drove it for years.

I don't know if anyone else here has done this, but if I were a betting man I would not bet much against Casebro.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 03:29 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I find this difficult to see actually happening
Yeah, https://www.carscoops.com/2018/05/te...telling-owner/

Keep in mind, the order of events were:

1 - car was charging fine.
2 - took it into a Tesla dealer for service unrelated to charging.
3 - Tesla determined it to be out of warranty and disabled the fast recharge feature.

There are plenty of youtube videos of people trying to repair Teslas and hitting the Tesla brick wall. I'm not saying Tesla should be providing warranty service to vehicles out of warranty. They should not be getting in the way of it either.

A salvaged title just means that the car was too expensive to repair as calculated by an insurance company. The damage could have been all cosmetic, or really extensive, you never know. It does not mean it's unsafe or mechanically defective.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 03:46 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
I can't believe we are arguing about the right to have laws to make sure anything we buy will work forever..

Horse and buggy whip owners are turning over in their graves.. (from laughter...)

Funny you should say that... my mother in law has a horse and buggy. The buggy is over 100 years old, is still in perfect working order, can still be repaired and she can still get parts for it.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 04:23 PM   #33
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MCM use to be a good place to get OEM parts for audio equipment but now they are just part of Newark electronics.


https://www.newark.com/mcm-partnersh...SAAEgJdpvD_BwE

I use rockauto for our cars parts (them that's out of warranty that is)

https://www.rockauto.com/

and Bikebandit for my motorcycle parts

https://www.bikebandit.com/parts

I found a site for appliance parts but can't recall it now, I'll have to check one of the receipts tonight.

Some stuff like furnace parts (just replaced the combustion chamber) I just get through amazon and that's an old trailer furnace.

Had to get a replacement blower fan motor support some years back for the furnace, got a universal type from I think Zicon.

http://zicontrols.com.sg/
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Old 3rd March 2019, 04:36 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
And I can't believe I'm agreeing with Zig. The right to repair refers to the tendency of manufacturers to want to be the only ones who *can* or who are *allowed* to attempt repairs. Like the scifi story where if you pry open the hood of your car, you find more sealed boxes containing the operative parts of the car. Right to Repair is people demanding the right to have a chance to be able to repair the items they own.
I recall some decades ago talk of car manufacturers wanting to have the hood unopenable by the customer or other parties. It was in relation to environmental legislation for emissions standards.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 04:49 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
That's the kind of behavior that makes this law necessary.
Agreed. Apple computers, on the other hand, have turned that behavior into an art form.

CBC Reporter takes a barely functional iMac into a genius bar. Says it's too much work to repair, you might as well buy a new one. They take it to Louis Rossmann, and he kinda knows what is going on, opens it up, fixes a pin on a bent cable, puts it back in and it works.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2_SZ4tfLns

Then there was all sorts of internet drama when Linus Tech Tips broke their 5K apple device, tried to get it serviced, and damn if Apple didn't throw up as many road blocks as they could. What was worse was all the Apple fans coming up with all sorts of excuses, as if what Apple makes is made from magical parts and not consumer level electronics.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 05:02 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
What about parts the manufacturers simply refuse to keep making?

I have an otherwise perfectly good dryer that has worked for 30 years but now won't start. The manufacturer no longer makes the replacement part.

I have an otherwise perfectly good Ricoh laser copier in the garage that needs a drum that is no longer made.

Couldn't get a new battery for an otherwise good camera.

And on and on it goes.

This is a problem I've faced my entire life. It's easy to get parts when a tool is new and you don't need them, once it's 10,15,20 years old not so much, they just want you to buy a new one. Still, I'm hesitant to say that government should step in and require a business to engage in unprofitable operations.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 05:22 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I have an otherwise perfectly good dryer that has worked for 30 years but now won't start. The manufacturer no longer makes the replacement part.
What's the part?

We don't use hot water in the washer because that input switch valve doesn't open anymore. I should probably put in a hose splitter valve. Reversed so hot, cold or both can go to the one working input when wanted.

https://www.amazon.com/Morvat-Heavy-...gateway&sr=8-5
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Old 3rd March 2019, 05:43 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by The Man View Post

Some stuff like furnace parts (just replaced the combustion chamber) I just get through amazon and that's an old trailer furnace.

Had to get a replacement blower fan motor support some years back for the furnace, got a universal type from I think Zicon.

http://zicontrols.com.sg/
....A lot of furnace parts are at least partly generic, and can be bought from suppliers that stock large quantities of them. Interestingly, perhaps because oil burners are so ubiquitous, some of the parts, despite their great precision, are incredibly cheap. If you had to buy the equivalent of a burner nozzle for your car, it would cost a fortune. You can go to a furnace parts dealer and get a nozzle drilled and milled to such precision that not only does it spray evenly, but its spray is precise as to width and pattern, and the consumption of oil per hour is precise to a hundredth of a gallon. Nowadays it costs about seven bucks.

Originally Posted by The Man View Post
I recall some decades ago talk of car manufacturers wanting to have the hood unopenable by the customer or other parties. It was in relation to environmental legislation for emissions standards.
someone wasn't thinking very well there. Can you imagine a car on fire, and no way to open the hood to put it out? Call the dealer to boost the battery? Sorry, the radiator overheated in the desert. Say your prayers.

Originally Posted by The Man View Post
What's the part?

We don't use hot water in the washer because that input switch valve doesn't open anymore. I should probably put in a hose splitter valve. Reversed so hot, cold or both can go to the one working input when wanted.

https://www.amazon.com/Morvat-Heavy-...gateway&sr=8-5
Those washing machine valves are almost entirely generic as well, the only difference generally being the finer point of how they're mounted to the washer. Try some place like Home Depot or an appliance dealer. They're really quite inexpensive, and an easy plug-in job. They're almost all even made by the same company though I forget its name.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 05:52 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
This is a problem I've faced my entire life. It's easy to get parts when a tool is new and you don't need them, once it's 10,15,20 years old not so much, they just want you to buy a new one. Still, I'm hesitant to say that government should step in and require a business to engage in unprofitable operations.
Manufactures should not be able to prevent third party maintenance.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 05:55 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
.

someone wasn't thinking very well there. Can you imagine a car on fire, and no way to open the hood to put it out? Call the dealer to boost the battery? Sorry, the radiator overheated in the desert. Say your prayers.
Ah perhaps that's why they started putting batteries in the trunk. Overheating? With an aluminum block prayers may be all you can say.


Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Those washing machine valves are almost entirely generic as well, the only difference generally being the finer point of how they're mounted to the washer. Try some place like Home Depot or an appliance dealer. They're really quite inexpensive, and an easy plug-in job. They're almost all even made by the same company though I forget its name.
Yeah, Moebob hasn't made any point of it and seems fine with cold water washing. Though I'd still like the option if I got something particularly nasty to wash.
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