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Old 6th March 2019, 02:04 PM   #121
ponderingturtle
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Your posts have no connection to anything that anyone is actually saying.
Look we need a totally new air traffic control system at least every 5 years. That is the very nature of how computers work and trying to keep any of that working is wrong.

I mean no one should expect their furnace or car to be reparable, just buy a new one when the company stops supporting it.

That is exactly the point, that these planned obsolescence and corporate controlling of items you own are moving out of luxury novelty electronics and into more and more fundamental pieces of home, business and travel infrastructure.
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Old 6th March 2019, 02:10 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Look we need a totally new air traffic control system at least every 5 years. That is the very nature of how computers work and trying to keep any of that working is wrong.



I mean no one should expect their furnace or car to be reparable, just buy a new one when the company stops supporting it.



That is exactly the point, that these planned obsolescence and corporate controlling of items you own are moving out of luxury novelty electronics and into more and more fundamental pieces of home, business and travel infrastructure.

Yes, but we are talking about stuff regular people buy everyday and you brought up air traffic. No one is sitting at home worrying about having to upgrade their home ATC system. Thatís an entirely different problem one created by an entirely different set of circumstances.


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Old 6th March 2019, 02:13 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Yes, but we are talking about stuff regular people buy everyday and you brought up air traffic. No one is sitting at home worrying about having to upgrade their home ATC system. Thatís an entirely different problem one created by an entirely different set of circumstances.
I brought up using old equipment to maintain not quite as old manufacturing equipment as a reason why longevity of say laptops that I was using was important, Then of course this is meaningless. So where specifically does the right to repair start?
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Old 6th March 2019, 02:17 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Look we need a totally new air traffic control system at least every 5 years. That is the very nature of how computers work and trying to keep any of that working is wrong.

I mean no one should expect their furnace or car to be reparable, just buy a new one when the company stops supporting it.
This thread isn't about companies stopping support for a product.

Quote:
That is exactly the point, that these planned obsolescence and corporate controlling of items you own are moving out of luxury novelty electronics and into more and more fundamental pieces of home, business and travel infrastructure.
Are they? What's your evidence for that?
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Old 6th March 2019, 02:42 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
Part of the problem with losing the right to repair also shows up in the Internet of Things technology. What do you do when you've built your "Smart Home" and then the company drops that standard and adopts a new one that's not compatible? Or even worse, just goes bankrupt. On a smaller scale, and recently happened, what if their servers crash and suddenly your lights don't work.

Do you really want to have to replace your kitchen appliances, lights, thermostat, toaster and security systems every time a company changes direction, gets bought out, or dies entirely? Because without Right to Repair, nobody would be allowed to support that older technology or fix it, and the company could simply brick all the smart features, or the entire appliance, depending on how it was built.

I'm a technophile, but I'm also a little cautious after many years of learning skills that promptly became useless (hey, I can do computer typesetting with paper tape machines, which was useful for about 3 years before it was made obsolete) and going through generations of tech devices.

If you want to have to send your phone to Apple every time it needs a minor repair, that's your business. If you want to use the IoT as an excuse to remodel your house regularly, that's nice. But a lot of us don't want to do that. We want things that can be repaired locally and supported as long as they can function. To do otherwise is hugely wasteful of time, money and resources. I don't think that makes me a Luddite.


But see, people are calling for legislation that would outlaw the way most consumers have expressed their preferences.


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Old 6th March 2019, 02:56 PM   #126
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Years ago I expressed my consumer preferences by throwing away a nearly brand new all-in-one ink jet printer, because:

1. It had run out of color ink.
2. The reason it had run out of color ink was that it was using color ink to somehow supposedly "enhance" the quality of the black and white printing I'd been doing.
3. Having run out of color ink, it was no longer capable of printing in black and white, nor copying in black and white, nor scanning, nor faxing, until the color ink cartridges were replaced.
4. A set of replacement color ink cartridges cost twice as much as the heavily discounted price I'd paid for the printer.

So, the company almost certainly took a loss on the deal, the environment took a loss, but I got my initial purchase money's worth out of it, and then certainly didn't want it around after that. I considered continuing to buy a series of them and using them until the initial ink supply ran out and then throwing them away. Fortunately, other manufacturers offered options that were more economical in the long run.
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Old 6th March 2019, 03:38 PM   #127
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And now, they put much smaller starter ink supplies in the machines to make that less reasonable.
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Old 6th March 2019, 03:40 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
And now, they put much smaller starter ink supplies in the machines to make that less reasonable.
Unless you need to print a lot of photos in high quality (in which case you should be buying an expensive ink jet printer, not a cheap disposable one), there's really no reason to get an ink jet rather than a laser printer.
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Old 6th March 2019, 04:29 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
Part of the problem with losing the right to repair also shows up in the Internet of Things technology. What do you do when you've built your "Smart Home" and then the company drops that standard and adopts a new one that's not compatible? Or even worse, just goes bankrupt. On a smaller scale, and recently happened, what if their servers crash and suddenly your lights don't work.
That is why you buy "hubless" devices. The problem I'm starting to see right now is that certain things, like doorbell cameras, operate on the 2.4 network, and not the 5.0 one. This is largely due to range limitations. Hubless devices only need the internet to change a setting, but you can still manually turn them on of off.

Honeywell has partnered with my energy provider, so that they will give me a one time credit of some dollar amount if I give control over my thermostat so they can better manage demand during the hot central Texas summer. I thought about it, and decided against it. Don't need the money, don't want to be forced to work from home and not be comfortable.
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Old 6th March 2019, 04:43 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
But see, people are calling for legislation that would outlaw the way most consumers have expressed their preferences.


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The right to repair, is not at the forefront of peoples buying decision. Never has been. That is the reason that things like the MagnusonĖMoss Warranty Act. In fact, since the act was created, most of this anti-consumer behavior has come to an end.

People did not buy Apple products because they can't be fixed. Much like you said, you didn't even think about it. So how is that a choice?
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Old 6th March 2019, 04:50 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
But see, people are calling for legislation that would outlaw the way most consumers have expressed their preferences.


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What it amounts to is that consumers are too stupid to make good decisions and therefore should let the all wise government make it for them.
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Old 6th March 2019, 04:52 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Yes, but we are talking about stuff regular people buy everyday and you brought up air traffic. No one is sitting at home worrying about having to upgrade their home ATC system. Thatís an entirely different problem one created by an entirely different set of circumstances.


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That is one hell of an apple and oranges comparasion, I admit.
I also note one person stated that you don't buy books from Amazon for your Kindle , but rent them. I don't see Amazon holding a gun to anybody's head making them buy book for their kindle.
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Old 6th March 2019, 04:54 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Look we need a totally new air traffic control system at least every 5 years. That is the very nature of how computers work and trying to keep any of that working is wrong.

I mean no one should expect their furnace or car to be reparable, just buy a new one when the company stops supporting it.

That is exactly the point, that these planned obsolescence and corporate controlling of items you own are moving out of luxury novelty electronics and into more and more fundamental pieces of home, business and travel infrastructure.
So now computers are a luxury novelty? What world are you living in?
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Old 6th March 2019, 05:02 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
So now computers are a luxury novelty? What world are you living in?
Ponderingturtle was saying that computers are an example of something that used to be a luxury novelty but are now more fundamental pieces of home, business and travel infrastructure. Actually, it was planned obsolescence and corporate control of items that was doing that.

I'm not sure how you read the same thing that I did and took it to mean that computers were a luxury novelty.
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Old 6th March 2019, 05:18 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I also detect a good deal of good old fashioned Ludditism here.
What!!!? You see, this is how far we've let technology rule our lives and pushed society down the rat hole!!! Once upon a time, an Łber-curmudgeonly comment like this use to mean something! It would have been backed-up with a proper diatribe about the virtues of being mechanical minded-of having the "mechanic's touch" and "why isn't your generation interested in fixing stuff?"

Nowadays, we are forced to endure feeble comments like this. With nothing behind it! "Hey you kids, things wear out, get over it!



Now, get off my lawn!! I'm about to mow it with my climate controlled John Deere tractor mower. I'll probably have the stereo cranked up streaming my favorite music over iTunes so I won't know if I've run over anybody until it's too late"!!
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Old 6th March 2019, 05:48 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Ponderingturtle was saying that computers are an example of something that used to be a luxury novelty but are now more fundamental pieces of home, business and travel infrastructure. Actually, it was planned obsolescence and corporate control of items that was doing that.



I'm not sure how you read the same thing that I did and took it to mean that computers were a luxury novelty.


In the computer market, Apple is a smaller player. Windows based PCs are dominant and I think a big reason for that is that people who buy computers want to be able to tinker, upgrade and keep their investment in computers working as long as possible. IOW, the market has spoken.

The phone market is very different. Most people want their phones to 1)Do a lot more than just be a phone and 2)Always have latest and greatest bells and whistles. Therefore, weíve all (based on simply looking at the phone market and the numbers that are available) pretty much gotten used to the idea of buying a new phone every couple of years. I think thatís changing as the latest phones are starting to reach diminishing returns on how much better the camera can be or whatever other new features can be glommed on. But so far, the market has also spoken. By and large, weíd rather get a new phone than tinker with an older phone.

To get back to tractors, Iím not insensitive to the wants of farmers who have been repairing their own stuff since the beginning of time. I can see this as a huge disruption that threatens their livelihood and can affect the entire society. But they have very narrowly crafted concerns: they have a limited time to harvest and they canít afford to wait for service. Iíd be OK with some legislation that addressed these specific concerns.


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Old 6th March 2019, 05:56 PM   #137
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The last time we got legislation that addressed the specific concerns of farmers, we ended up with Daylight Savings.
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Old 6th March 2019, 06:07 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The last time we got legislation that addressed the specific concerns of farmers, we ended up with Daylight Savings.
I thought it was WWI. It's this ******* weekend! Man, I hate it being so early. Thanks, Obama!
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Old 6th March 2019, 07:17 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The last time we got legislation that addressed the specific concerns of farmers, we ended up with Daylight Savings.
I'm pretty sure there's been some agriculture-related legislation since then...
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Old 6th March 2019, 07:29 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I'm pretty sure there's been some agriculture-related legislation since then...
And I'm pretty sure you're doing your level best to **** up a perfectly good joke.
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Old 6th March 2019, 07:32 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
And I'm pretty sure you're doing your level best to **** up a perfectly good joke.
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Old 6th March 2019, 07:48 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
In the computer market, Apple is a smaller player. Windows based PCs are dominant and I think a big reason for that is that people who buy computers want to be able to tinker, upgrade and keep their investment in computers working as long as possible. IOW, the market has spoken.
It's much more that IBM's strength was eventually hijacked by MS than some massive group wanting to tinker with anything, really - particularly when laptops are a large part of the market and relatively inflexible as far as customization goes. There's definitely a market for tinkerers though, particularly among tower PCs.

Quote:
The phone market is very different. Most people want their phones to 1)Do a lot more than just be a phone and 2)Always have latest and greatest bells and whistles. Therefore, weíve all (based on simply looking at the phone market and the numbers that are available) pretty much gotten used to the idea of buying a new phone every couple of years. I think thatís changing as the latest phones are starting to reach diminishing returns on how much better the camera can be or whatever other new features can be glommed on. But so far, the market has also spoken. By and large, weíd rather get a new phone than tinker with an older phone.
At this point, I've found that few people care about customizing much more than software, at the maximum. Overall, I have no issue with amateur repairs voiding the warranty - you can't ask for your money back if you break the CPU or worse, pierce the battery - and in the latter case, you can't sue for damages, either. But outright suing people for their own repairs is absurd.

However, I'll note that potentially dangerous situations such as modern cell phones are the only legitimate basis I can see for outright banning user repairs. This may have to seep into vehicles as computer controls become more ubiquitous - no, you can't hack your self-driving car's software - but for well-documented mechanical parts, I see no issues with allowing users to do their own work.
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Old 7th March 2019, 12:02 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
It's much more that IBM's strength was eventually hijacked by MS
Don't forget Intel as well.
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Old 7th March 2019, 12:09 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Simple solution

If you want a right to repair, only purchase from people who can agree to it.

That would be all well and good if there were no such thing as monopolies. And yet there is. They are everywhere. Therefore you bringing that up is both obvious and pointless.
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Old 7th March 2019, 01:18 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I also detect a good deal of good old fashioned Ludditism here.

Because good old fashioned Luddites were upset by not being allowed to make their own repairs on the new technology they purchased?

This is a rather idiosyncratic usage of the term which I suspect is not shared by many people aside from yourself.
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Old 7th March 2019, 04:13 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
This thread isn't about companies stopping support for a product.



Are they? What's your evidence for that?
See the article about losing ability to do what you want with your tractor a high budget item of your business and very important to your livelihood if you are a farmer. One that is expected to last a long time as well.

This is not solely about consumer luxury electronics.
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Old 7th March 2019, 04:34 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
What it amounts to is that consumers are too stupid to make good decisions and therefore should let the all wise government make it for them.
Yep. Consumers were happy with cars that would stab them through the heart in a car accident then Ralph Nader had to screw it all up.

No one cared that their medicine might be poison, but a little bad press over elixir sulfadamide killing a few hundred people and suddenly you have to prove your medicine is not poison.
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Old 7th March 2019, 04:36 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
So now computers are a luxury novelty? What world are you living in?
My home computer is a luxury. I can function with out it, it would not impact my business earnings or overall lifestyle if it broke. I would be upset and replace it but that is does not mean it isn't a luxury.
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Old 7th March 2019, 04:39 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Ponderingturtle was saying that computers are an example of something that used to be a luxury novelty but are now more fundamental pieces of home, business and travel infrastructure. Actually, it was planned obsolescence and corporate control of items that was doing that.

I'm not sure how you read the same thing that I did and took it to mean that computers were a luxury novelty.
Home computers certainly in general are. But in business and such they become vital to things and not every production line of every item is totally replaced every 2 years like a cell phone. That is why while those aspects get a lot of focus in the press they are in a lot of ways not the most important.

Calling up tech support and having them have to break out an outdated laptop to read your servo control program to figure out why it is not working right is exactly the kind of long term support that is very important.(and servos seem to be an area that they don't provide it very well)
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Old 8th March 2019, 01:09 PM   #150
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Speaking of "Smart" technology and the IoT, here's an interesting article from CNet about some of the problems people are having. https://www.cnet.com/news/your-landl...home-now-what/
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Old 10th March 2019, 10:01 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It's in the starter chain, the relay switch.

I'm going to call in a repairperson and see if they have a work-around solution.

What I figured and good idea, as that was the point of my previous post about the washer inlet. That if the part ain't available a work around can be. The switch you press or turn to start would most likely be a momentary contact switch and I doubt the relay is anything special. The problem is of course is the work around worth the time, effort and money or does it compromise safety.
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Old 10th March 2019, 10:10 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Welcome to manufacturing. I can still buy new PLC's that are the same as units purchased 20 years ago. Telling someone they have to replace their entire process every 10 years is not going to fly in a lot of industries.

Hell about 10 years ago we had pieces of equipment bought used in the 50's finally stop being supported by their manufacturer.

I know PLC companies that will let you know years ahead of time before a product is going to be discontinued and they will support it with repairs for another 5-10 years after that.
The servo amplifiers that are used all over the place here are like that. No longer being manufactured and reworks from vendors are the only option other than changing out motors and wiring to support new style amps.
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Old 10th March 2019, 10:54 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
That would be all well and good if there were no such thing as monopolies. And yet there is. They are everywhere. Therefore you bringing that up is both obvious and pointless.
They are not everywhere
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Old 11th March 2019, 06:07 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
But see, people are calling for legislation that would outlaw the way most consumers have expressed their preferences.

Yet another straw man. No one is arguing against new products, and no one is arguing against people being allowed to treat their expensive technology as disposable.

What is being argued, for those paying attention, is legislation limiting the practice of artificial, planned obsolescence. How is allowing a third-party to repair a device which no longer fully supported by the manufacturer at all detrimental to society? I'm really not seeing any downside to doing so, and plenty of downside to allowing the billionaire megacorps to continue to push rapid planned obsolescence practices.
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Old 11th March 2019, 06:31 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
That is why you buy "hubless" devices. The problem I'm starting to see right now is that certain things, like doorbell cameras, operate on the 2.4 network, and not the 5.0 one. This is largely due to range limitations. Hubless devices only need the internet to change a setting, but you can still manually turn them on of off.

Until they no longer allow that to happen, and require that all IoT devices be connected to the network to function at all, or at least to function beyond the most basic on-off level.

Before anyone says that isn't likely to happen, it's already happening. My employer sells devices and software to medical institutions. One of those is involves re-selling a device from a third-party vendor that requires a license key in order to function. This device used to have a USB dongle that held the key, so as long as that dongle was plugged in, the device would function normally. They have since migrated to an online-only license; which means that it will only function as long as it is connected to the Internet and can communicate to the vendor's license server.

Now, that may not seem like a big thing, but as I said, this is in the medical industry, and the device handles PHI data, which involves all sorts of dangers of identity theft. So naturally the administrators would like to lock down the network as securely as possible. Problem is, locking down the network means that the device can no longer communicate with the license server, and it stops functioning.

Only a matter of time before that happens to consumer devices across the board if the megacorps have their way.
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Old 11th March 2019, 06:48 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Home computers certainly in general are. But in business and such they become vital to things and not every production line of every item is totally replaced every 2 years like a cell phone. That is why while those aspects get a lot of focus in the press they are in a lot of ways not the most important.

A huge chunk of my industry is running on systems that utilize technology that has not been updated for twenty to thirty years, typically on DOS or UNIX platforms. Far from being a problem, this is the preferred situation as these systems are incredibly stable and reliable compared to current platforms. And when you are dealing with critical patient care data, stable and reliable is crucial.

Implementing these same planned-obsolescence practices would result in thousands of lost man-hours in retraining, and hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of dollars in new equipment every cycle (roughly 5 years). Not to mention the increase in patient care errors that would inevitably result.

And before anyone tries to dismiss this as "apples to oranges" and say it would never happen, it's already happening. The company I work for has spent the last few years in a running battle with one of our biggest vendors over exactly this sort of planned obsolescence practice.
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Old 11th March 2019, 06:54 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by The Man View Post
The servo amplifiers that are used all over the place here are like that. No longer being manufactured and reworks from vendors are the only option other than changing out motors and wiring to support new style amps.
And when the controller is connected to the amp you have real issues.
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Old 11th March 2019, 07:16 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
1. Actually making it illegal for an end consumer to repair their own legally purchased product. I feel this is, in general, wrong. I purchase a widget, the widget breaks, I should be allowed to fix it.
Ah, but see: you don't own it. You own a lisence allowing you to use the widget. :\
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Old 11th March 2019, 07:42 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post

The term "late-stage capitalism" assumes a similar mantle of prophetic power. But as with Marx, there is no reason to think that such predictions will have any connection to actual events.
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
"Late stage" doesn't say anything about when "final stage" will be.
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
But you have to know itís near the final stage. But that isnít close to certain.
I've always wondered at academics who use this term why this term just floats through the peer-review/editing process with no burden to explain what they mean by this term. Sure, it is derived from Marx, but I always think of Hari Seldon when I read it and always want to ask the author, "Tell me about this 'late stage capitalism'!" though on second thoughts that's a recipe for a dull evening.
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Old 11th March 2019, 07:45 AM   #160
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I like to think we should be able to discuss "the right to fix/modify things you own" without discussing tearing down the entire system and rebuilding it from scratch.
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