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Tags airplane incidents , American Airlines

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Old 4th March 2019, 05:44 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I fail to see how medically untrained flight crew baselessly ejecting the visibly disabled is a rational way to control the spread of disease.
That's a good way to put it.
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Old 4th March 2019, 05:47 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
If the disease was a contagious one, the flight staff would be heroes....
And if they were carrying small pox virus ...

I can't believe how many posts there are here from people who think rashes are dangerous or there is no way to tell.
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Old 4th March 2019, 05:48 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
And on the other side we just bar anyone who hasn't had blood work done in the last 12 hours from flying at all. Safety is the most important thing, after all, far better to ground nine hundred million healthy than allow a single sick person to put others at risk!
There you go! That's what I'm trying to say.
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Old 4th March 2019, 06:17 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
What you describe is the situation already. International flights are a disease vector. Flight crews with no medical expertise occasionally hassling only those passengers with visible ailments will have such little effect in the spread of the disease that it is hard to consider it a useful endeavor.
Good point.

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
How are flight crews to discern between an ordinary cough and tuberculosis? Is it COPD or SARS? Someone with a cold and rubella? Someone with a skin condition or smallpox? They can ask, and they have no idea if what they are being told is a lie or not. If flight crews really want to stop the ill from flying, they will need doctors to screen patients. Flight attendants following intuition will be both ineffective and needlessly cruel to the disabled.
Exactly.

When SARS was spreading (and that one was extremely contagious) they set up heat screeners at airports to detect passengers with fevers. Maybe with all this concern in the thread people would suggest re-implementing that screening?
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Old 4th March 2019, 06:22 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I've known people with psoraiasis and it can look alarming, but it is very characteristic of a dry skin condition (scaliness, redness, dryness). Looking at the kid in the photo it is clear the baby has this group of condition. (NB: In the medical profession psoriasis, ichthyosis and eczema are variations of similar conditions and treated similarly). It is extremely common and unlikely to be confused with 'spotty' illnesses such as measles or chickenpox.

In wikipedia they do like to find the most extreme and gory looking photos to illustrate a medical condition.
Actually those are three different classes of diseases. Psoriasis and eczema might be treated the same. I didn't see anywhere that suppressing the immune response was recommended for ichthyosis but I could have missed it. A genetic protein abnormality is different from the immune system over-reacting. On the other hand, maybe the immune system is involved attacking the abnormal protein?
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Old 4th March 2019, 06:23 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Purleese. I have travelled abroad four times this year already. The first occasion I came down with an unpleasant sore throat and cough, which I blame on the flight.

Air-borne illnesses can't really be identified just by looking at someone.

You couldn't catch a retrovirus such as AIDS from simply breathing it in or sitting next to someone. You'd need to share body fluids.
Even TB that is airborne is very rarely spread on planes.
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Old 4th March 2019, 06:24 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Shrugs* If you want to turn "Hey if you are showing symptoms carrying some sort of paperwork to show you aren't contagious" into a Nazi-esque SHOW ME YOUR PAPERS so be it.

Hell if you bring an oxygen tank or a portable dialysis machine or vials of insulin there's procedures (of varying degrees) to follow. I don't see this as any different.
When are you going to actually pay attention here and respond to the posts instead of repeating your mistaken idea of contagious rashes?
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Old 4th March 2019, 06:27 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Right, so clearly we need a full physical at well. I'm sure it won't take more then, oh, 8 or 9 hours per passenger.
Add a couple days for cultures to come back.
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Old 4th March 2019, 06:29 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
...

It also ignores the fact that one of the most common airline-associated disease vectors is not passengers, it's airline staff themselves.
Very good point.
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Old 4th March 2019, 06:30 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
It is all very tricky as I see it. We cannot ask gate agents and attendants to be medical diagnosticians and public health experts but we do want the airlines to identify and prevent from flying someone with a very serious infectious disease such as Ebola. On the other hand we probably don't want airlines to prevent people with common colds from flying even though they are likely to infect many of their fellow passengers.

It is both a matter of the ability to spot a dangerous disease by eye (something trained MDs usually cannot do) and where to draw the line. Certainly someone with a nasty looking but non-infectious skin disease should be allowed to fly, whereas someone with scabies (a nasty and highly infectious skin disease spread by mites) probably should not. What of leprosy, which has very low infectivity even if not treated and virtually none if undergoing treatment? The CDC has a list of "reportable" public health threats, many of which are not directly infectious from person to person and are therefore irrelevant here. However the sublist of CDC reportable diseases that are directly infectious would probably be useful for drafting a no-fly list.

And whose word do we take for the nature of the disease? The patient's word? A "doctor's note" from the passenger that may or may not be valid? Do we grab a suspicious passenger and force them into lab tests and a several day wait before they can board a plane?

This may be one of those awful problems with no ideal answers.
It's easily resolved with a little training and some specific guidelines.
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Old 4th March 2019, 06:33 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Because there are times you can't tell it's not worth it to try?

Because one person could be sick we shouldn't check others?

That is done mental gymnastics right there just to seem like the most open minded kid on the playground.
No, because a flakey dry skin rash isn't on the worry list.

If you are going to screen customers, at least use specific written guidelines rather than leaving stewards to freak out over harmless icky skin.
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Old 4th March 2019, 06:34 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
Seem to recall that during one of the big respiratory outbreaks (SARS maybe?) they walked passengers in affected areas through thermal scanners. Anyone running a fever was pulled aside to be checked for symptoms. That doesn't catch all prodromal illnesses but would get a lot of the contagious ones before they were showing full-fledged symptoms.
Yep, that was SARS.

For ebola they were asked which countries they'd been in and screened that way.
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Old 4th March 2019, 06:35 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Much as I would like to side with the passenger I cannot. It is truly not worth the risk, however small that risk it might appear.

This is no way changes the way I feel about airlines that have acted badly in the past, such as assaulting a passenger and physically dragging him unconscious off a flight for no other reason than they bumped him so their the own airline staff could fly.
Sigh.

Why are you singling out icky rashes? On what basis is that a concerning symptom?
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Old 4th March 2019, 06:37 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
All which were not the symptoms the passenger was presenting with (and therefore are irrelevant)

Let me put you in the flight attendant's shoes

You see a passenger with a severe rash. It looks very bad, and very contagious. You decide that it isn't your business and you are not qualified to assess it, so you say nothing.

How to you feel about this?

Halfway into the flight, that passenger's rash has grown much, much worse, they have developed a fever, and they are coughing and sneezing. The passengers either side of her and in the row directly in front are all starting to show signs of a rash.

By the time the flight is almost at its destination, the original passenger is now coughing blood, and the nearby passengers are all falling more seriously ill. Other passengers are showing signs of a rash.

How do you feel about this now?
And what responsibility to you place on the airline and it's incompetent training?
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Old 4th March 2019, 06:40 PM   #95
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I should also point out that the crew having no training ejecting a non-contagious person is also going to be the same untrained crew missing the contagious passenger.
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Old 4th March 2019, 08:02 PM   #96
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Requiring "certain kinds of passengers" to have a special permission slip (from what authority?) to do things other people get to do automatically seems like a non-starter.

Apply the same "safety of other guests" logic to the grocery store, a restaurant, the movie theater, public transportation, etc.
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Old 4th March 2019, 08:21 PM   #97
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The airline should give her a free (one way) ticket to Molokai.
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Old 4th March 2019, 09:04 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
That's a good way to put it.
And it even makes sense, if you ignore getting a doctors note, which would be written by a medical professional, taking the judgement out of the hands of the staff.
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Old 4th March 2019, 09:08 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
No, because a flakey dry skin rash isn't on the worry list.

If you are going to screen customers, at least use specific written guidelines rather than leaving stewards to freak out over harmless icky skin.
Doctors note takes care of it without making staff make a diagnosis.

Really simple way to word it in the employee handbook

"In any case where there is question as to a customers ability to fly in a manner that is medically safe for all passangers and staff, the opinion of a licensed medical professional in the country in which the issue takes place will be required as staff are not trained to diagnose any disease. "
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Old 4th March 2019, 09:11 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Requiring "certain kinds of passengers" to have a special permission slip (from what authority?) to do things other people get to do automatically seems like a non-starter.

Apply the same "safety of other guests" logic to the grocery store, a restaurant, the movie theater, public transportation, etc.
Gun collectors/owners are "Certain kinds of passangers" that we have special rules for in regards to flights.

We actually have lots of "special" types of passangers, why are carriers of disease suddenly different?
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Old 4th March 2019, 09:23 PM   #101
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Doesn't American Airlines use MedLink or some other similar service to make these types of decisions?
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Old 4th March 2019, 09:28 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Gun collectors/owners are "Certain kinds of passangers" that we have special rules for in regards to flights.

We actually have lots of "special" types of passangers, why are carriers of disease suddenly different?
Is a gun a condition that one is born with? Or otherwise afflicted with in a manner entirely outside of one's control? Is it not possible to remove a gun no matter how many specialists are visited?

Then we're talking about not even remotely the same thing.

ETA: I'm talking about a condition, not a disease. I notice that despite repeated efforts to steer that out of the conversation, it keeps leaping back in.

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Old 4th March 2019, 10:07 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
The airline should give her a free (one way) ticket to Molokai.
They closed that colony down when antibiotics for Hansen's Disease were successful. But it's my understanding some long term residents still live there.
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Old 4th March 2019, 10:10 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
And it even makes sense, if you ignore getting a doctors note, which would be written by a medical professional, taking the judgement out of the hands of the staff.
So then, everyone on every flight should also have a doctor's note.

What if they look sweaty?

Maybe everyone who looks Middle Eastern should have a state department note?
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Old 4th March 2019, 10:12 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Doctors note takes care of it without making staff make a diagnosis.

Really simple way to word it in the employee handbook

"In any case where there is question as to a customers ability to fly in a manner that is medically safe for all passangers and staff, the opinion of a licensed medical professional in the country in which the issue takes place will be required as staff are not trained to diagnose any disease. "
Actually that would be a piss-poor policy.

And in this case, the woman had a diagnosis.

I've written these policies, BTW. It's more systematic than "anyone with icky skin". It ain't hard and TBH, sometimes the doctors are worse at it than infection control nurses. I have stories.
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Old 4th March 2019, 10:14 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Gun collectors/owners are "Certain kinds of passangers" that we have special rules for in regards to flights.

We actually have lots of "special" types of passangers, why are carriers of disease suddenly different?
Did they pull out the policy book that said 'flaky rash' be careful of those guys?
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Old 4th March 2019, 10:57 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yeah if only there was some sort of "Make a judgement call when the person has obvious exterior physical symptoms and no paper work to back anything up" middle ground we could land at.
Obvious exterior physical symptoms of what? I have yet to see an informed opinion that the symptoms shown were anything but those of the non contagious condition that actually existed. "Ooh that looks nasty" is a pretty poor criterion.
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Old 5th March 2019, 04:57 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Someone with a skin condition or smallpox?
Very unlikely to be smallpox, given that it no longer exists at large.

True. Plenty of other poxes left. Also measles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yes. I'm saying Nazi SS Storm Troopers should force Tiny Tim off of the airplane on Christmas Eve.
Nonsense. The SS didn't have storm troopers. Those were in WWI.

Maybe not the SS, but the Nazis quite proudly called the brownshirts their Sturmabteilung.
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Old 5th March 2019, 05:17 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
I notice that most people arguing in favour of the airline staff's actions are ignoring a fairly critical point that was brought up earlier, many readily communicable diseases are contagious for several days before symptoms manifest, or may manifest mild symptoms for days longer, and are easily mistaken for a cold or allergies during that time.
I don't find this argument very convincing, however. Yes, many diseases are contagious and show no symptom during that window of time. But many show visible signs during that time, and the former is no reason to ignore the latter.

Not that I agree with the airline's decision. Just addressing your specific argument.
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Old 5th March 2019, 05:19 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
In fact, any passenger who isn't constantly performing Olympic-level gymnastic routines flawlessly is probably too ill to fly.
And those who do are probably mentally ill anyway. I mean, who does that on a plane? Weirdos.
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Old 5th March 2019, 05:22 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Halfway into the flight, that passenger's rash has grown much, much worse, they have developed a fever, and they are coughing and sneezing. The passengers either side of her and in the row directly in front are all starting to show signs of a rash.

By the time the flight is almost at its destination, the original passenger is now coughing blood, and the nearby passengers are all falling more seriously ill. Other passengers are showing signs of a rash.
What is that, the Andromeda strain?

Quote:
How do you feel about this now?
I'd check if the passengers that are sick ate steak or fish.
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Old 5th March 2019, 05:23 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Add a couple days for cultures to come back.
Well, you can use the extra time for a few more tests. I'm sure they won't mind. You know, for safety's sake.
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Old 5th March 2019, 06:44 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
What is that, the Andromeda strain?

Seriously. As has already been pointed out any disease that progresses that fast and is that contagious (none that I'm aware of, these things take days) has already infected everyone on the way to the plane -- the other passengers in the airport, the screeners at the gate, the terminal check-in staff, other airline staff, and so on. By the time the person gets on the plane, everyone has already been exposed to Captain Trips.

Quote:
I'd check if the passengers that are sick ate steak or fish.

And if any of them have a drinking problem.
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Old 5th March 2019, 06:47 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Seriously. As has already been pointed out any disease that progresses that fast and is that contagious (none that I'm aware of, these things take days) has already infected everyone on the way to the plane -- the other passengers in the airport, the screeners at the gate, the terminal check-in staff, other airline staff, and so on. By the time the person gets on the plane, everyone has already been exposed to Captain Trips.




And if any of them have a drinking problem.
Also, it's a domestic flight. We are already screwed if people within the country have black death 2.0.

Domestic flights are just buses that fly. You get jammed into a tube with a bunch of strangers far too close for comfort. Everyone should expect a fairly high level of general filth and accept it. I consider myself lucky anytime there aren't any visible liquid residues on or around my seat.
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Old 5th March 2019, 07:22 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Also, it's a domestic flight. We are already screwed if people within the country have black death 2.0.

Domestic flights are just buses that fly. You get jammed into a tube with a bunch of strangers far too close for comfort. Everyone should expect a fairly high level of general filth and accept it. I consider myself lucky anytime there aren't any visible liquid residues on or around my seat.

And I see plenty of sick people on buses, including one who was hacking and coughing like he had TB. Of course, he did get kicked off by the driver, but only after he started gobbing on the floor. I'd be willing to bet that buses rival planes for domestic disease transmission. I generally try to avoid touching anything on a bus I don't absolutely have to.
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Old 5th March 2019, 12:01 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I don't find this argument very convincing, however. Yes, many diseases are contagious and show no symptom during that window of time. But many show visible signs during that time, and the former is no reason to ignore the latter.

Not that I agree with the airline's decision. Just addressing your specific argument.
Obviously, but in this case the thing the staff saw, "a rash", wasn't a sign of contagiousness.

Psoriasis is not contagious. Pemphigus looks frightening, but it isn't contagious. There is a long list.
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Old 5th March 2019, 12:03 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Obviously, but in this case the thing the staff saw, "a rash", wasn't a sign of contagiousness.

Psoriasis is not contagious. Pemphigus looks frightening, but it isn't contagious. There is a long list.
No disagreement there. I was only addressing a specific argument.
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Old 5th March 2019, 01:51 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Actually those are three different classes of diseases. Psoriasis and eczema might be treated the same. I didn't see anywhere that suppressing the immune response was recommended for ichthyosis but I could have missed it. A genetic protein abnormality is different from the immune system over-reacting. On the other hand, maybe the immune system is involved attacking the abnormal protein?
I think they go hand in hand:

Quote:
Ichthyosis vulgaris
Ichthyosis vulgaris is the most common type of inherited ichthyosis, affecting 1 in 250-1,000 people. Signs and symptoms include:

skin may appear normal at birth
skin gradually becomes dry, rough and scaly, usually before the age of one
the face and the bends of the elbows and knees aren't usually affected
limbs may develop fine light-grey scales
the skin on the palms of the hands and soles of the feet may have more lines than normal and be thickened
the child often also has eczema
symptoms are often worse when it's cold and dry and improve in warm, humid conditions this means they may be more noticeable in the winter than the summer
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/ichthyosis/

Treatment:

Quote:
Treating ichthyosis
There's no cure for ichthyosis, but moisturising and exfoliating the skin daily can help prevent dryness, scaling and the build-up of skin cells.

Skincare
Your skin specialist (dermatologist) will be able to prescribe or recommend suitable moisturising treatments (emollients), which may be in the form of a cream, ointment, lotion or bath oil.
ibid

Psoriasis:

Quote:
Psoriasis is a skin condition that causes red, flaky, crusty patches of skin covered with silvery scales.

These patches normally appear on your elbows, knees, scalp and lower back, but can appear anywhere on your body. Most people are only affected with small patches. In some cases, the patches can be itchy or sore.

Psoriasis affects around 2% of people in the UK. It can start at any age but most often develops in adults under 35 years old, and affects men and women equally.
Treatment:

Quote:
Treating psoriasis
There's no cure for psoriasis, but a range of treatments can improve symptoms and the appearance of skin patches.

In most cases, the first treatment used will be a topical treatment, such as vitamin D analogues or topical corticosteroids. Topical treatments are creams and ointments applied to the skin.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/psoriasis/

corticosteroids= aka Betnovate - used to treat eczema.
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Old 5th March 2019, 02:06 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
True. Plenty of other poxes left. Also measles.




Maybe not the SS, but the Nazis quite proudly called the brownshirts their Sturmabteilung.
Dry skin conditions have zero to do with spots.

If you see a baby or a young child with a rash, together with flaky skin and scaling, I promise you it is one of the exceedingly common childhood conditions.

Leave the poor kid alone to scratch on his itch to his heart's content.
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Old 5th March 2019, 03:07 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
And if any of them have a drinking problem.
Surely you can't be serious?
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