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Old 15th March 2019, 06:38 AM   #321
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Two things here, first very little (if any) of that terrorism was anywhere near the massacres of dozens of people inspired directly by Islam we see on a weekly basis.

Yes, weekly. There was a broadly comparible attack by Islamic extremists carried out in India four weeks ago: 49 dead and 48 wounded.

https://www.deccanherald.com/nationa...ns-718430.html

Second, unless you're an elf, 30 years should be long enough to be called "many years".

McHrozni
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.
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Old 15th March 2019, 06:42 AM   #322
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Nearly all shootings were inside the mosque. He shoots people on the sidewalk nearby both as he is on foot and also as he is driving away. He seemed to shoot at any visible human within a few blocks of the Al Noor mosque. Some may have had no relation to the mosque. He was standing outside the mosque shooting pedestrians a block away. Like a walking sniper.



He walked into the mosque with a single rifle and many high capacity banana clips. He was carrying so many clips that he dropped at least one on the floor (later picking it up and loading it). He would rapidly reload the rifle with a fresh clip. No doubt he was practiced.

His station wagon was parked next to the mosque. It was filled with many more guns and ammo all waiting to be used. At one point in the massacre, he walks out and goes back to the car. He switches rifles getting a new one from the cargo area. It looks like the same kind of rifle. So he also gets more clips as well and then goes back into the mosque with a fresh gun and more clips. Now he starts being very methodical about examining the piles of bodies looking for the still living which he then shoots multiple times. He did not want to leave a single person alive.
That seems to support my point that the semi-auto, magazine loaded rifle being the preferred weapon for spree killings. Any shots taken with a shotgun while driving around were just targets of opportunity. For the mass slaughter, a rifle with lots of spare mags is the obvious preferred weapon. I doubt the gunman could have been nearly as deadly with something that is capacity restricted and slow to reload by its very design, like a tube-fed pump shotgun.
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Old 15th March 2019, 06:47 AM   #323
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
That seems to support my point that the semi-auto, magazine loaded rifle being the preferred weapon for spree killings. Any shots taken with a shotgun while driving around were just targets of opportunity. For the mass slaughter, a rifle with lots of spare mags is the obvious preferred weapon. I doubt the gunman could have been nearly as deadly with something that is capacity restricted and slow to reload by its very design, like a tube-fed pump shotgun.
I'm now going to revise what I said. I now think that the very first gun he takes into the mosque is an assault-style semi-auto shotgun. Then he goes back to the car and switches for an assault-style semi-auto rifle.

For this massacre (mostly in mosque and some on street) he uses both shotguns and rifles. He is never carrying or using more than one at a time.
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Old 15th March 2019, 06:50 AM   #324
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Two things here, first very little (if any) of that terrorism was anywhere near the massacres of dozens of people inspired directly by Islam we see on a weekly basis.
Your blinkers are showing. Again.
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Old 15th March 2019, 06:50 AM   #325
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
That we should approach Islam-inspired massacres in the same manner as we do this one and not treat them with undue additional curtesy we currently do.

McHrozni
I'd say we have treated right wing terror with "curtesy" for far too long. I agree, we need to start treating it like we have treated Islamist terror. I simply don't think the two of us agree which has been treated more stringently.
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Old 15th March 2019, 06:54 AM   #326
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I'm now going to revise what I said. I now think that the very first gun he takes into the mosque is an assault-style semi-auto shotgun. Then he goes back to the car and switches for an assault-style semi-auto rifle.

For this massacre (mostly in mosque and some on street) he uses both shotguns and rifles. He is never carrying or using more than one at a time.
I haven't watched the video, and am undecided if I ever will, but it should be easy to tell. A semi-auto shotgun, even a magazine fed one, will not hold more than say 10 shells, unless it's a big drum magazine which would be fairly obvious to spot.

A semi-auto, magazine fed shotgun is similar to a semi-auto rifle in that they are fast to reload, though the capacity is less. I would consider them significantly different than the average tube fed pump shotgun that are most common.

My point remains that someone wanting to kill lots of people very quickly is likely to choose a magazine fed, semi auto weapon, if available. They are better for the task.
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Old 15th March 2019, 06:55 AM   #327
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
The NZ Police keep a list of acceptable weapons and their category, it's downloadable from their site, so it is a bit more then just a PR move.
Imposing restrictions based on cosmetic features rather than functionality is fundamentally pointless. That's just about the only detail I agree with "gun rights advocates" on.

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I would also point out that aside from family incidents (we have had a few mass shootings of family members), we haven't had a serious mass shooting since Aramoana until today, and today was a operation that took 2 years of meticulous planning and preparation.

I very much doubt that our gun laws were at fault here.
Hopefully they won't be. If the AR-15 was in any way NZ legally-sanctioned - stolen or not - I would think that changes are inevitable.
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Old 15th March 2019, 06:58 AM   #328
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Here is the very first gun that he takes into the mosque. I believe that this is a high-capacity tube-fed semi-auto shotgun.

https://siena.rosselcdn.net/sites/de...?itok=mnf1s6N5
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Old 15th March 2019, 06:59 AM   #329
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Old 15th March 2019, 06:59 AM   #330
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I will not link to any photos that show any dead bodies.
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Old 15th March 2019, 07:05 AM   #331
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Here is the very first gun that he takes into the mosque. I believe that this is a high-capacity tube-fed semi-auto shotgun.

https://siena.rosselcdn.net/sites/de...?itok=mnf1s6N5
I agree. Max capacity would be 9 rounds of 12 gauge, if not less. That is strange to me that someone would choose that over a rifle. Reloading such a shotgun is not a fast process compared to that of a rifle.
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Old 15th March 2019, 07:11 AM   #332
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I agree. Max capacity would be 9 rounds of 12 gauge, if not less. That is strange to me that someone would choose that over a rifle. Reloading such a shotgun is not a fast process compared to that of a rifle.
It never gets reloaded. When he runs out (or decides to stop) he goes out to the car to get a rifle. Nobody stops him walking in and out of the mosque. He is in no hurry. Methodical and calculated. Like a video game or a movie. It's surreal how he dominates and destroys all human life in his visual field.
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Old 15th March 2019, 07:14 AM   #333
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
It never gets reloaded. When he runs out (or decides to stop) he goes out to the car to get a rifle. Nobody stops him walking in and out of the mosque. He is in no hurry. Methodical and calculated. Like a video game or a movie. It's surreal how he dominates and destroys all human life in his visual field.
I suppose that makes sense, fire it empty and dump it for something else.

With the video, the manifesto, and the 8chan memes all over the literal murder weapons, I hope this is some kind of turning point for how we deal with the alt-right. It's time for the kid gloves to come off.

At least in the US, a good deal of effort has been expended in fighting overseas sources of terror. Not nearly enough has been done about the domestic supply of right wing terrorism.
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Old 15th March 2019, 07:18 AM   #334
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Here is a rifle at the mosque. At this point he is in walking sniper mode outside at the parking lot and sidewalks. There is a clip attached to the right side of the gun but he is also carrying more clips.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D1qoBe7UgAAsrq0.jpg
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Old 15th March 2019, 07:24 AM   #335
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Here is a second rifle at the mosque. What is that sighting thing? Is that a video camera sight?

https://www.esdiario.com/images/carp...enable=upscale
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Old 15th March 2019, 07:28 AM   #336
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He uses the shotgun to shock and suppress the people, then switches to a semi-automatic rifle.

He has given a lot of thought to this.
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Old 15th March 2019, 07:32 AM   #337
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Three long guns sitting on the passenger seat. One of these is the pump-action shotgun that he uses while driving. There are still more guns behind him in the cargo area.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/wwR3q0SknnU/maxresdefault.jpg
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Old 15th March 2019, 07:38 AM   #338
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Here is a second rifle at the mosque. What is that sighting thing? Is that a video camera sight?

https://www.esdiario.com/images/carp...enable=upscale
Both look like common red dot sights. The first looks like it could be an aimpoint, but it's hard to say. Maybe magnified, maybe just 1x.

Here's an aimpoint that looks to have a similar profile https://www.aimpoint.com/product/aimpoint-compm4/

The second is a holographic sight, probably just an unmagnified red dot. I'm guessing EOTech, which is used by military, or some knockoff. here's a variety of EoTechs that have a similar appearance: https://www.eotechinc.com/holographic-weapon-sights
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Old 15th March 2019, 07:39 AM   #339
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At least 2 guns in the cargo area. We see a rifle and a shotgun. The red things are gas cans.

http://prod.static9.net.au/fs/b5adc7...e-d4cf4d702d71
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Old 15th March 2019, 07:45 AM   #340
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
At least 2 guns in the cargo area. We see a rifle and a shotgun. The red things are gas cans.

http://prod.static9.net.au/fs/b5adc7...e-d4cf4d702d71
Looks to be a ban compliant stock on the rifle, it's a thumbhole stock rather than a standard AR pistol grip stock. Are pistol grip rifles not legal in NZ? Might be more evidence of a rifle that was started life in NZ legally.
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Old 15th March 2019, 07:46 AM   #341
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My count is 4 shotguns and 2 rifles, but not certain. If that is wrong then the most likely accurate count is 3 shotguns and 3 rifles.
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Old 15th March 2019, 07:56 AM   #342
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Here is a second rifle at the mosque. What is that sighting thing? Is that a video camera sight?

https://www.esdiario.com/images/carp...enable=upscale
EOtech holographic sight or clone.
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Old 15th March 2019, 08:05 AM   #343
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Why is it important which models of autmatic rifles and shotguns he used and what accessories they had? I'm not judging, just asking.
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Old 15th March 2019, 08:12 AM   #344
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I literally just heard about this while searching Youtube for recent videos from Chistchurch. To find a freakin' terrorist mass murder not just in my hometown but my childhood neighbourhood is just a little surreal.
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Old 15th March 2019, 08:13 AM   #345
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In New Zealand, Signs Point to a Gunman Steeped in Internet Trolling (NY Times)

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A camera mounted to his head, the gunman who livestreamed part of his savage attack on two mosques in Christchurch, New Zealand, on Friday began his video by casually making reference to a current internet meme.

He appeared to be steeped in the culture of the extreme-right internet. And in the terrible minutes of video that followed, he proved to be a nonchalant, unrepentant killer.
. . .

Based on the video, the manifesto and social media posts, a picture has begun to emerge of a man primarily driven by white nationalism and a desire to drive cultural, political and racial wedges between people across the globe. That, he hoped, would stoke discord and, eventually, more violence between races.
Quote:
The gunman appeared to pair the shooting with the typical trolling tactics of the internet’s most far-right instigators, playing to a community of like-minded supporters online who cheered him on in real time as they watched bodies pile up. And the manifesto states plainly what usually goes unstated by internet trolls: By design, its author wanted to get everyone upset and arguing with each other.

One of the goals of his bloodshed, he wrote, was to “agitate the political enemies of my people into action, to cause them to overextend their own hand and experience the eventual and inevitable backlash as a result.” He said he wanted to “incite violence, retaliation and further divide.”
. . .

His choice of language, and the specific memes he referred to, suggest a deep connection to the far-right online community. The link to the livestreamed video was first posted to the /pol/ forum of 8chan, a notorious far-right space, where the gunman was hailed as a hero after the shooting.
I'm almost more shocked that there were people watching this live on the internet and actually cheering it on. And all the while he was referring to far-right internet memes and in-jokes.
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Old 15th March 2019, 08:16 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I don’t agree with this. However the guns used were obtained, Australia has proven that you can eliminate mass shootings by making semi-automatics almost impossible to obtain. PM Howard stared down the gun enthusiasts and won. I hope your PM can do the same.

Spare me the “right to own whatever gun we want” arguments.
I'd like to think that there wouldn't have been another mass shooting even without the gun ban due simply to the overall good character of Australians. In other words, that the Port Arthur perpetrator was a true terrible anomaly among those nice folks.

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Old 15th March 2019, 08:24 AM   #347
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Why is it important which models of autmatic rifles and shotguns he used and what accessories they had? I'm not judging, just asking.
In California, it's so the concept of good gun/bad gun can be reinforced.

Elsewhere, I believe it's an attempt to wrap one's head around a fact in an incident that can't be explained or rationalized by logical thinking.
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Old 15th March 2019, 08:25 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
More and more though we have what is termed "hate speech", which some countries do not protect.

NZ has a very wide interpretation of free speech, though.

I expect re-examinations of free speech laws.
We couldn't stop him getting very powerful weapons, but we surely can stop people from spreading ideas.

Keep hiring your head against that brick wall.
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Old 15th March 2019, 08:26 AM   #349
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I'm almost more shocked that there were people watching this live on the internet and actually cheering it on.
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Old 15th March 2019, 08:28 AM   #350
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Originally Posted by Carnivore View Post
I literally just heard about this while searching Youtube for recent videos from Chistchurch. To find a freakin' terrorist mass murder not just in my hometown but my childhood neighbourhood is just a little surreal.
Once that ugly reality becomes part of your world view it's a hard thing to deal with.

When someone I knew very well discovered their wife cheating en flagrante and murdered her and then committed suicide, my life changed forever.
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Old 15th March 2019, 08:31 AM   #351
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Why is it important which models of autmatic rifles and shotguns he used and what accessories they had? I'm not judging, just asking.
Some firearms are optimized for mass homicide with large capacity magazines that can be quickly swapped. Blast thirty rounds into the crowd as fast as you can pull the trigger then pop in another magazine and repeat.
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Old 15th March 2019, 08:32 AM   #352
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
In California, it's so the concept of good gun/bad gun can be reinforced.

Elsewhere, I believe it's an attempt to wrap one's head around a fact in an incident that can't be explained or rationalized by logical thinking.
Thank you. I'll just accept that I can't understand the need for the discussion.

To me, it's like discussing why the gunman chose NIKEs over ADIDAS shoes. Doesn't seem relevant when 49 people are dead.
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Old 15th March 2019, 08:40 AM   #353
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Senatro Anning:Australia's Answer to Representive Steve King of Iowa....
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Old 15th March 2019, 08:42 AM   #354
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Are they trying to make him a celebrity to be copied?

If it bleeds, it Leads


Some news outlest will do anything for a rating.
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Old 15th March 2019, 08:42 AM   #355
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Thank you. I'll just accept that I can't understand the need for the discussion.

To me, it's like discussing why the gunman chose NIKEs over ADIDAS shoes. Doesn't seem relevant when 49 people are dead.
In the past, mass murder events like this lead to conversations around banning of guns. Often these gun bans are limited to certain types of weapons or features. The specific weapons that are well suited for mass killing are relevant.

I am hoping that there can be more conversation around the insidious nature of alt-right politics that breeds such toxicity that someone is willing to commit such a terrible act of violence on strangers.

Call Muslims invaders and barbarians long enough, people are bound to act. There is nothing surprising about this outcome based on the narratives being peddled by the far right.

Senators Fraser Anning's comment basically boils down to "I condemn this violence, but actually, this guy had a point". Shameful.
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Old 15th March 2019, 08:43 AM   #356
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I agree. Max capacity would be 9 rounds of 12 gauge, if not less. That is strange to me that someone would choose that over a rifle. Reloading such a shotgun is not a fast process compared to that of a rifle.
2 points.

Shotgun is usually used for confusion and wounding. Big noise, lots of shrapnel, brown pants.

Also a tube feed shotgun can be fed an extra round on the go, no need to load all 8, ready to top off if one has a few seconds.
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Old 15th March 2019, 08:50 AM   #357
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
Some firearms are optimized for mass homicide with large capacity magazines that can be quickly swapped. Blast thirty rounds into the crowd as fast as you can pull the trigger then pop in another magazine and repeat.
In reality most mass shootings are perpetrated by semi-automatic firearms. If anything they are likely be more useful
than a fully automatic weapon because one is less likely to waste ammunition.
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Old 15th March 2019, 08:51 AM   #358
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
I just read this article on Australian troll pages run by people from the Balkans, published just before the attacks...

https://abc.net.au/news/2019-03-15/t...80?pfmredir=sm

It's really frightening reading. Is our open, free and democratic society really so weak against this?
That is the problem. At what point in fighting this stuff do we cease to be an open,free and democratic society?
The thing to remember is that someone can easily find good reasons to suppress radical left wing opinions as easily as you can find reasons to suppress radical right wing opnions.
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Old 15th March 2019, 08:53 AM   #359
William Parcher
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
2 points.

Shotgun is usually used for confusion and wounding. Big noise, lots of shrapnel, brown pants.

Also a tube feed shotgun can be fed an extra round on the go, no need to load all 8, ready to top off if one has a few seconds.
His shotgun blasts were deadly. I doubt that any target was more than 20 feet away. Many were much closer.

Two shotguns were used in the video. Neither was ever reloaded. It's possible that he reloaded the shotguns before arriving at the second mosque, but it isn't on video. The filming ends while he is rapidly driving towards the second mosque.
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Old 15th March 2019, 08:54 AM   #360
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41 dead at one mosque, only 7 at the other. Apparently the shooter fled when one of the intended victims at the Linwood mosque managed to snatch the shooter's gun. Well done that man. It's sobering to think this atrocity was almost even worse.
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