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Old 4th August 2022, 10:34 AM   #81
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Regardless there's no other context where "The customers might treat the workers badly" is seen as an argument we have to address as to whether or not the job should be legal to perform.
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Old 4th August 2022, 12:07 PM   #82
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Ya an old lady complaining that her soup is cold is totally on the same planet as a naked sex worker being "abused and hurt" by some prick.
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Old 4th August 2022, 05:57 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I think it boils down to the associations we have in the States. A prostitute is usually a streetwalker, often with drug issues (Atlantic City/New York area boy here). We don't really have clean/safe sex workers around here. It's a sordid gig for sordid people.
I agree with that, and it makes a huge difference.

There's also a thing in NZ you probably wouldn't be aware of - if you tell someone here you're a christian, the person you tell will probably walk slowly away shaking their head. Christians are not well-regarded here unless they're old ladies who grew up in the 1950s, when it was acceptable. The country's most-despised person, a piece of walking, talking faeces, is a christian bloke called Brian Tamaki, and that's what people expect a christian to be like.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Although, technical sidebar time: what in the ever loving hell could she do to be worth $500/hour?
I don't know who pays $500 for it - the charge at my friend's brothel is $250 for an hour, plus extras if requested. Extras being golden showers and other not-terribly extreme stuff. Dominatrices may charge more.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Are these women that talented, or is do they cater to unusually well-off yet lonely clientele? not being snarky or anything. I just don't get it.
The typical client is a married man who spends 3/4 of his time talking about what a frigid bitch his wife is.

I have morning tea with the girls now and then and it's the funniest hour of the month every time I go there. It really does make me ask who's exploiting whom, because the clients are universally sad, grey men who wouldn't ever get laid if they weren't already married.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Right, but again: in the States it is largely reversed. Haven't heard of any nearby church with abuses, but dead prostitutes are a real and ongoing thing.
Yes, you really have built an opposite world over there. Given the propensity Kiwi blokes have for murdering their wives/girlfriends/partners, I'd be very surprised if prostitutes had a greater chance of being murdered than any other female.
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Old 4th August 2022, 05:59 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
I think what's being disputed is your ability
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Old 4th August 2022, 06:38 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Well, as someone who did it for a while, I can confidently say that Uber drivers get ****** all the time. Mainly by Uber.
As someone who also did it for a while, I can confidently agree with that.
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Old 4th August 2022, 06:47 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Did I miss me saying something in this thread? I don't think I ever claimed that sexual abuse or harassment was part of the job. My example explicitly showed that it wasn't, as if the men got unruly at all they were aggressively, and quickly dealt with by security on-hand. Which was a general rarity on the show.
One person I know who worked in a legal brothel told me that they had a Panic Button always very close nearby. If they hit the button, security would be in the room within seconds. And as you said, they were not gentle. The customer would be out on their probably bare ass, and they would not be welcomed back to that establishment afterward.
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Old 4th August 2022, 06:52 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
One person I know who worked in a legal brothel told me that they had a Panic Button always very close nearby.
The ABC store I buy my cigars from has a panic button. Every bank... ever has a panic button. The front check-in desk of the Cancer Treatment Center I work at has a panic button.
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Old 4th August 2022, 06:54 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The ABC store I buy my cigars from has a panic button. Every bank... ever has a panic button. The front check-in desk of the Cancer Treatment Center I work at has a panic button.
Exactly. Why would a sex worker at a legal brothel not have one?
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Old 4th August 2022, 06:58 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Exactly. Why would a sex worker at a legal brothel not have one?
They should, I just don't get what point beyond that is being made exactly.

Again "Costumers might get violent" is not an argument for an occupation being made illegal.
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Old 4th August 2022, 07:00 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Again "Costumers might get violent" is not an argument for an occupation being made illegal.
Not even the occupation of costume designer.
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Old 4th August 2022, 07:05 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
They should, I just don't get what point beyond that is being made exactly.

Again "Costumers might get violent" is not an argument for an occupation being made illegal.
Damn good thing no one is making such an argument.
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Old 4th August 2022, 07:06 PM   #92
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"People might get violent" is literally the state of New Jersey's justification for infringing on the right to bear arms.
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Old 4th August 2022, 07:09 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Damn good thing no one is making such an argument.
I'm sure sex workers are in good enough shape to run fast enough away from any attacker.
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Old 4th August 2022, 07:17 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
"People might get violent" is literally the state of New Jersey's justification for infringing on the right to bear arms.
Come visit scenic Jersey, my dude. You will thank god that these people are not carrying.
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Old 4th August 2022, 07:20 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
They should, I just don't get what point beyond that is being made exactly.

Again "Costumers might get violent" is not an argument for an occupation being made illegal.
Yes. I'm agreeing with you. And with plague311. Most if not all customer service occupations have practices and policies in place to deal with belligerent or abusive customers.

The point here is that when it is fully legal, there's really nothing special about sex work. It's a job like any other. It can even be one that a person enjoys doing. All of the negative stereotypes exist purely because it has been illegal and therefore a criminal enterprise for so long.

Want to get tough on organised crime? Legalise drugs and prostitution. That'll break their backs. And the best part? Tax revenue. These are two big industries, which could contribute in a big way to the local economy.
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Old 4th August 2022, 07:45 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Come visit scenic Jersey, my dude. You will thank god that these people are not carrying.
Sorry. Ethnic bigotry played for laughs isn't really my thing. Do you have anything else?
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Old 4th August 2022, 07:46 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Yes. I'm agreeing with you. And with plague311. Most if not all customer service occupations have practices and policies in place to deal with belligerent or abusive customers.
In how many of those customer service occupations are you naked and alone with a man who believes he has rented your body for whatever sexual ends he deems fair to him? I mean, prostitution has built-in vulnerabilities not present in most lines of work.

And it's not like comparable damage can happen to a prostitute, compared to a sales associate. It would take a bit longer to be able to sexually assault someone in a public place, compared to the nude woman and client in a private room. The prostitute is physically a hairsbreadth away from the y/n line by the nature of the work. A cashier, not so.

Quote:
The point here is that when it is fully legal, there's really nothing special about sex work. It's a job like any other. It can even be one that a person enjoys doing. All of the negative stereotypes exist purely because it has been illegal and therefore a criminal enterprise for so long.
That's what I was saying to The Atheist upthread. It sounds to an American ear like suggesting "hey, let's legalize protection rackets. That'll be fine". It's kind of not-fine by it's nature.

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Want to get tough on organised crime? Legalise drugs and prostitution. That'll break their backs. And the best part? Tax revenue. These are two big industries, which could contribute in a big way to the local economy.
How'd that work after prohibition got repealed in the US? Dried up that criminal activity, did it? I think they just expand into new territory, rather than go to work at Wal Mart.
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Old 4th August 2022, 07:49 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Sorry. Ethnic bigotry played for laughs isn't really my thing. Do you have anything else?
I got sophmoric toilet humor. That work for you?

Plus it's not ethnic bigotry by any standard. New Jerseyans are not a widely recognized ethnic group. Plus they are my peeps. You don't want me carrying either. Just trust me on that point.
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Old 4th August 2022, 08:16 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
One person I know who worked in a legal brothel told me that they had a Panic Button always very close nearby. If they hit the button, security would be in the room within seconds. And as you said, they were not gentle. The customer would be out on their probably bare ass, and they would not be welcomed back to that establishment afterward.
That is 100% correct in all respects.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Damn good thing no one is making such an argument.
You know what occupation is struggling with violent clientele right now?

Supermarket and grocery store workers.

USA - https://retailwire.com/discussion/re...nd-themselves/

UK - https://www.theguardian.com/business...d-eye-to-theft

NZ - https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/128...-higher-prices
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Old 4th August 2022, 08:31 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
In how many of those customer service occupations are you naked and alone with a man who believes he has rented your body for whatever sexual ends he deems fair to him? I mean, prostitution has built-in vulnerabilities not present in most lines of work.
This misrepresents the nature of legal sex work.

As has been mentioned previously, nothing happens until money changes hands. I'll tell you another thing that nothing happens until: an agreement is made between the sex worker and the client as to the exact nature of the service provided. There is no such thing as "whatever sexual ends he deems fair to him". Everything is agreed to up-front. Any deviation from that constitutes a breach of contract.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
And it's not like comparable damage can happen to a prostitute, compared to a sales associate. It would take a bit longer to be able to sexually assault someone in a public place, compared to the nude woman and client in a private room. The prostitute is physically a hairsbreadth away from the y/n line by the nature of the work. A cashier, not so.
You think a cashier is immune to assault? I have a friend who is a retail manager who was assaulted just a few weeks ago.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
That's what I was saying to The Atheist upthread. It sounds to an American ear like suggesting "hey, let's legalize protection rackets. That'll be fine". It's kind of not-fine by it's nature.
To an American ear, yes. We're telling you what it sounds like to an Australian and a New Zealand ear, where the industry is legal and regulated. Are you saying that you don't believe us?

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
How'd that work after prohibition got repealed in the US? Dried up that criminal activity, did it? I think they just expand into new territory, rather than go to work at Wal Mart.
I think it's fair to say that quite a lot of the activity of organised criminals is in the area of drugs and prostitution, where those things are illegal. No, it certainly won't make the gangs go away, but it will take away an appreciable percentage of their business.
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Old 5th August 2022, 12:38 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
That is 100% correct in all respects.



You know what occupation is struggling with violent clientele right now?

Supermarket and grocery store workers.

USA - https://retailwire.com/discussion/re...nd-themselves/

UK - https://www.theguardian.com/business...d-eye-to-theft

NZ - https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/128...-higher-prices
Why did you include that UK link? It's an entirely anecdotal, unsubstantiated piece about the rise of poverty in the UK and people not being able to afford to buy basic food items and resorting to stealing amongst other tactics. The nearest it gets to mentioning violence is when it quotes a worker saying,

Quote:
“You’re in a uniform, they don’t see you as a person, they see you as an extension of this company you work for, so people shout at you.” Customers annoyed that a product is no longer on special offer will shout at him, he says. “Fuses of people are short. People are under pressure.”

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Old 5th August 2022, 03:50 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Why did you include that UK link? It's an entirely anecdotal, unsubstantiated piece about the rise of poverty in the UK and people not being able to afford to buy basic food items and resorting to stealing amongst other tactics. The nearest it gets to mentioning violence is when it quotes a worker saying,
Did you miss these bits?

Quote:
Thefts have increased, she says, and the supermarket has started to employ a security guard
Quote:
Supermarket workers tell of people getting to know the time when items get reduced and using physical force to get to them.
Quote:
There has been a change in atmosphere, James says. Customers are ruder and more aggressive.
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Old 5th August 2022, 06:13 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Did you miss these bits?
No, not at all but it's a bit of stretch to hold them up as evidence of violence and sexual assault, which is what we were talking about.

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Thefts have increased, she says, and the supermarket has started to employ a security guard
Said security guard to stop thefts, I'll wager and since there is no mention of violent thefts I'm confident I'm right.

Quote:
Supermarket workers tell of people getting to know the time when items get reduced and using physical force to get to them.
Close, but I know exactly what is going on here. This is when perishables get discounted (commonly called "whoopsies"), they are put in a specific section of the fresh produce aisle. Some customers will lift things off the trolley before they are re-priced and shelved, some will push past other customers and perhaps staff to get that reduced morsel first. It's not even handbags at 20 paces level of "violence".

Quote:
There has been a change in atmosphere, James says. Customers are ruder and more aggressive.
As I said, a bit of a stretch to equate this to the level of potential violence we're talking about in this thread.

Anyhow, don't mind me. I don't know why I feel the need to be so picky about this.

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Old 5th August 2022, 10:33 AM   #104
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Are we really treating anecdotes like data right now?
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Old 5th August 2022, 11:29 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
Are we really treating anecdotes like data right now?
I'd rather read anecdotes about prostitution than anecdotes about shoplifting? soup? whatever this thread has turned into.
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Old 5th August 2022, 11:37 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
Are we really treating anecdotes like data right now?
I mean we all had one dude humblebragging about how he "tears it up" so I mean... what are the limits at this point?
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Old 5th August 2022, 11:44 AM   #107
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Both very good points
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Old 6th August 2022, 10:03 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
This misrepresents the nature of legal sex work.

As has been mentioned previously, nothing happens until money changes hands. I'll tell you another thing that nothing happens until: an agreement is made between the sex worker and the client as to the exact nature of the service provided. There is no such thing as "whatever sexual ends he deems fair to him". Everything is agreed to up-front. Any deviation from that constitutes a breach of contract.
This is a strange response. You seem to think that a potential assaulter would be deterred by his contractual agreement? And I'm not sure how such an agreement would be worded so as to be clear enough in advance. Is there a safeguard against how many foot pounds of thrust he can deliver before she considers things abusive? Your argument seems to rely on the guy's personal integrity an awful lot.

Quote:
You think a cashier is immune to assault? I have a friend who is a retail manager who was assaulted just a few weeks ago.
This is an even stranger reply. I suggested nothing about immunity. I said, and quite clearly, that a naked woman alone in a room performing sex acts is far closer to being sexually assaulted than a cashier in a public place. Bit of a chasm in difference, that.

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To an American ear, yes. We're telling you what it sounds like to an Australian and a New Zealand ear, where the industry is legal and regulated. Are you saying that you don't believe us?
Yet another strange reply. Of course I believe you, and especially in the case of NZ, which is world-renowned for its highly unique treatment of sex workers. But there are cultural differences at play, which is the perspective I am working from. NZ has sane gun restriction; the States don't. NZ has approx 3500 sex workers, and in the States it is a $14billion/year industry, mostly operating at the not exactly $500/HR end of the cost spectrum. This is not going to be an apples for apples comparison.

Basically (and I intentionally offer this as a counterpoint from the perspective of a different culture), I don't think it would work here. It sounds like prices would have to be driven very high to make it taxable and fair to the women. There are likely very few Johns interested in paying much more than their customary $50-$100 illicit tryst with a hooker, so either the illegal end rides on as-is, or a new low-end illegal market emerges, perhaps of more decadent tastes.

In the States, we have prostitution legal in some rural counties in Nevada. There are something like two dozen currently operating, many closed and seized for their various criminal activity (The Mustang Ranch is well-known for its legal troubles). Take a gander at the pics of these places. They look about as seedy as you get. The Mustang Ranch itself was originally a couple double wide trailers. So in our real world evidence, it does not appear very successful in the States. The streetwalkwrs are racking the billions, not the $500/hr workers.

Quote:
I think it's fair to say that quite a lot of the activity of organised criminals is in the area of drugs and prostitution, where those things are illegal. No, it certainly won't make the gangs go away, but it will take away an appreciable percentage of their business.
For a few minutes, sure. A few minutes later we'd see how resourceful they are in creating new markets. Just how dark those possible new markets could be is not a reassuring musing. Did the rum runners go down dramatically darker and more violent paths after repeal.of prohibition, and expand exponentially? I do believe they did. History has an annoying habit of repeating itself.
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Old 6th August 2022, 10:14 AM   #109
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To our Aussie and Kiwi parents: did you discuss prostitution as a good way to make screaming good money working part time, with little to no experience at all? The Atheist, to his credit, has acknowledged that he did not.

And no weaseling, please. I'm not asking if they showed an interest in that line of work as a career. I'm asking if you suggested to your teenage daughter or son that sucking a few strangers' cocks a week is a stellar way of getting yourself off to a good financial start. I mean, since it is no big deal and all. You can sell your labor as a burger flipper for minimum wage in near sweatshop conditions, or casually get boned on your own terms for many times more. If you are sincere in your assertion that it is no big deal, why not suggest it as a valid opportunity (and no, I don't mean to advocate it any more highly than any other possibility, but simply mention it as a viable possibility if they might be ok with it)?

Eta: oh, and im not asking for the mindlessly generic "I support my child's career decisions" thing. I'm asking if you said to your own children, who were starting out looking for a good paying job : "Have you considered prostitution?"
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Old 6th August 2022, 11:10 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
To our Aussie and Kiwi parents: did you discuss prostitution as a good way to make screaming good money working part time, with little to no experience at all? The Atheist, to his credit, has acknowledged that he did not.

And no weaseling, please. I'm not asking if they showed an interest in that line of work as a career. I'm asking if you suggested to your teenage daughter or son that sucking a few strangers' cocks a week is a stellar way of getting yourself off to a good financial start. I mean, since it is no big deal and all. You can sell your labor as a burger flipper for minimum wage in near sweatshop conditions, or casually get boned on your own terms for many times more. If you are sincere in your assertion that it is no big deal, why not suggest it as a valid opportunity (and no, I don't mean to advocate it any more highly than any other possibility, but simply mention it as a viable possibility if they might be ok with it)?

Eta: oh, and im not asking for the mindlessly generic "I support my child's career decisions" thing. I'm asking if you said to your own children, who were starting out looking for a good paying job : "Have you considered prostitution?"
.... and if not, why not? Even during tertiary educational years it means you can support a very good lifestyle working on your own terms and hours.
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Old 6th August 2022, 11:37 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
.... and if not, why not? Even during tertiary educational years it means you can support a very good lifestyle working on your own terms and hours.
I hear tell that it is even possible to do this before tertiary education. Schools should be supporting these budding entrepreneurs. This could be just the kick the economy needs.
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Old 6th August 2022, 12:36 PM   #112
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Since sex work is work, can bosses include performing sexual acts as part of a person's job duties? Some might argue oral pleasure is not part of a traditional office job, but maybe that's an oppressive, close-minded tradition we need to challenge. Anyway, let the free market decide. Advanced capitalism moves toward increased specialization, so a corporation would probably contract that work out. Instead of doing trust falls, we can strengthen morale by giving everyone blowjobs. "Colleagues" can be upgraded to "Eskimo siblings."
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Old 7th August 2022, 02:37 AM   #113
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I find it intriguing how many people in this thread seem unable to contemplate a legalised, controlled and safe prostitution system. We have it in Australia and New Zealand. Does that mean there are no prostitutes in illegal, unsafe brothels? Of course not. But most can do what they do safely. And do people imagine there is not security only a button away?

And this nonsense about parents having a sit down discussion with their daughters about prostitution as a career. Do any of those spouting this stuff have daughters?

Pretty much every parent endeavours to raise their children to be intelligent, resourceful, resilient and independent. If those objectives have been met, their children make life decisions without great input from parents. Have my wife and I had deep and meaningful discussions with our daughters about sexual health, drug taking, sexuality, prostitution as a career etc etc? **** no! Why not? Because we don’t need to. They are adults and make their choices.

Is it conceivable that a daughter may have made money as a prostitute? Of course. But does anyone seriously think they would come to me to seek my blessing?

Some of you guys have no idea of parenthood.
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Old 7th August 2022, 02:50 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Have my wife and I had deep and meaningful discussions with our daughters about sexual health, drug taking, sexuality, prostitution as a career etc etc? **** no! Why not? Because we donít need to. They are adults and make their choices.
Really?

Sex, sexual health, relationships, drugs and lots of other important subjects are & were subjects for discussion from a young age.
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Old 7th August 2022, 03:22 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Since sex work is work, can bosses include performing sexual acts as part of a person's job duties? Some might argue oral pleasure is not part of a traditional office job, but maybe that's an oppressive, close-minded tradition we need to challenge. Anyway, let the free market decide. Advanced capitalism moves toward increased specialization, so a corporation would probably contract that work out. Instead of doing trust falls, we can strengthen morale by giving everyone blowjobs. "Colleagues" can be upgraded to "Eskimo siblings."
Indeed, and why not? Giving your boss a blowie is really no more significant than doing some photocopying for him.
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Old 7th August 2022, 03:34 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Really?

Sex, sexual health, relationships, drugs and lots of other important subjects are & were subjects for discussion from a young age.
Sure, but not when they became adults. We were happy that we did enough to raise them as responsible individuals and are always there if they want to discuss anything. Beyond that, their call.
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Old 7th August 2022, 03:36 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Indeed, and why not? Giving your boss a blowie is really no more significant than doing some photocopying for him.
Another one who has no idea what they are talking about on this topic.
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Old 7th August 2022, 10:40 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I find it intriguing how many people in this thread seem unable to contemplate a legalised, controlled and safe prostitution system. We have it in Australia and New Zealand. Does that mean there are no prostitutes in illegal, unsafe brothels? Of course not. But most can do what they do safely. And do people imagine there is not security only a button away?

And this nonsense about parents having a sit down discussion with their daughters about prostitution as a career. Do any of those spouting this stuff have daughters?

Pretty much every parent endeavours to raise their children to be intelligent, resourceful, resilient and independent. If those objectives have been met, their children make life decisions without great input from parents. Have my wife and I had deep and meaningful discussions with our daughters about sexual health, drug taking, sexuality, prostitution as a career etc etc? **** no! Why not? Because we don’t need to. They are adults and make their choices.

Is it conceivable that a daughter may have made money as a prostitute? Of course. But does anyone seriously think they would come to me to seek my blessing?

Some of you guys have no idea of parenthood.
Thermal wasn't asking if you'd give your daughter your blessing. He was asking if you'd advise it as potential career choice. See, some here seem to be making the case that working as a prostitute, legally, put's the job on a par with any other out there. I think Thermals question is valid.

Would you agree that there is a certain stigma to the job? Y'know in answer to...

"So, tell me what does your daughter do?"

What would you prefer, "she's in the legal field, in HR", or "she's a sex", worker, in legalised prostitution"?

I'm happy to admit that if prostitution was legal in the UK and my son (hey, boys can be sex workers too LK) came to me years ago asking for career advice, I'd steer him clear of selling his arse being a sex worker, no matter how much money he could make and I think that makes me a good parent in that regard.

Last edited by bluesjnr; 7th August 2022 at 10:42 AM.
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Old 7th August 2022, 12:05 PM   #119
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Itís always different when itís your own kid. We can have a conversation in the abstract about the legitimacy of sex work, but Iím pretty dang sure none of us would recommend it as a career choice for our own kids. Forget any inherent dangers; itís just the basic stigma of it. And possibly knowing that your own friends could potentially be clients of your kid. Money isnít everything.

If my daughter told me she was working the brothels of Nevada, Iíd be unhappy about it. Itís not my place to tell her (as a fully grown adult) what to do, but Iíd be unhappy and would rather not talk about it or hear about it, even though I do think, in the abstract, sex work should be perfectly legal and even if I may have indulged in some aspects of sex work myself (strip bars, say).
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Old 7th August 2022, 12:52 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Thermal wasn't asking if you'd give your daughter your blessing. He was asking if you'd advise it as potential career choice. See, some here seem to be making the case that working as a prostitute, legally, put's the job on a par with any other out there. I think Thermals question is valid.
I don't.

Does anyone have a discussion with their daughter about whether cleaning toilets at McDonald's is "valid career choice"?

No, why would you?

Now, if your daughter came to you and said she was considering taking a job cleaning toilets at McDonalds, you might have a discussion with her to make sure that she has really considered all her options. I would figure the same thing would happen with prostitution.

The question to me does not seem to come from anything based in reality when it comes to parenting. I don't sit down with my kids and give them a list of acceptable careers that I recommend or approve.
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