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Old 31st May 2022, 01:01 PM   #321
dudalb
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Originally Posted by Shadowdweller View Post
I disagree in the strongest possible terms. The American criminal justice system - of which the courts are at least a part - is in dire need of more transparency, not less. Far worse distortions occur when people and institutions are free to make baseless or fabricated claims about court proceedings without the possibility and ease of public oversight.

Effective democracy requires knowledge and perspective in the hands of the voting public.
We saw what happened with the circus that was the OJ trial.
I think you can have transpercy without brodacasting the trial. Inevitably both sides begin playing to the TV audience, which distorts the process.
I beleive the court system should be open to scrutiny but I thin reporters in the courtroom can do that fine. I don't think you need live broaccasts of the proceedings to have public oversight.
I suspect you are not old enough to remember what a total fiasco broadcasting the OJ trial was.
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Old 31st May 2022, 01:15 PM   #322
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I think you are a little too confident if you claim that it's impossible for Depp to prevail in this case, but as I am not a lawyer, my opinion on this ain't worth much.

For starters, if it was truly that bad, then why did the judge allow it to go forward?

It would be highly irresponsible of a judge to not summarily dismiss a case that had no possible hope of prevailing, wasting valuable court time on a nuisance lawsuit.
I think Depp can prevail in the case, but that won't help his pretty much moribund career.
Yeah, he is one year younger then Cruise, but Depp has aged pretty badly, Cruise has not.
I also think Depp petty much scrwed his pooch before this broke, Audiences were tired of his "Look at how wierd I am and how funny I dress" act, (except for Jack Sparrow) and his attempt as a comeback in a serious role in "BLack Mass" was a flop.
And he got fired from the role of the Villian in the Harry Potter "Fantastic Beasts" spin off series.
I am amused how some people here got get the basic law of entertainment:
You are only as powerful as you last box office take. Depp has not had a good box office take in a long time.
I suspect , if Disney does reboot the Pirates series, Depp will do a cameo as Jack Sparrow, and that will be it.
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Old 31st May 2022, 01:16 PM   #323
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I would not be surprised if it's a verdict were Depp wins but the amount awarded is derisory...sort of a "technically you are right but your are still a bad person" kind of thing.
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Old 31st May 2022, 05:57 PM   #324
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That's... not what he said. He wasn't claiming that they wrote the texts. He was using that possibility as a hypothetical to make the point that he had no idea of the provenance of certain text messages. His ACTUAL claim is that he didn't write the texts.

Was he lying that he didn't write the texts in question? Possibly. But that hasn't been proven.
It wasn't a lie, it was a ridiculous "hypothetical" with no chance of being true. OK.
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Old 31st May 2022, 06:04 PM   #325
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Jury has retired for the night.
SOme talk that the Judges instructions to the jury favored Heard. Of course one of the things they teach you in law school is that the judge can insturct all he wants, but once a jury goes into the jury room, they can do just about whatever the hell they want as far as a verdict goes.
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Old 31st May 2022, 06:07 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Jury has retired for the night.
SOme talk that the Judges instructions to the jury favored Heard. Of course one of the things they teach you in law school is that the judge can insturct all he wants, but once a jury goes into the jury room, they can do just about whatever the hell they want as far as a verdict goes.

https://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/circui...structions.pdf

Here are the instructions so you can judge for yourself.


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Old 31st May 2022, 07:28 PM   #327
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Originally Posted by whoanellie View Post
It wasn't a lie, it was a ridiculous "hypothetical" with no chance of being true. OK.
Did you actually listen to his words, or did you only read about what he said? Because if you actually listen to his words, his meaning is pretty clear. He never claims that Amberís lawyers wrote that. Which is why he subsequently talks about how someone with access to his phone could have written it. Heardís lawyers didnít have access to it at the time. They were not even Heardís lawyers at the time.

Again, itís possible he could be lying, but 1) you misrepresented what he actually said, and 2) they never proved he was lying, unlike Heard who was caught out on multiple lies on the stand. And Iím not even talking about the stuff where other people contradict her or where her version isnít believable, Iím talking solid incontrovertible proof of lies.
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Old 31st May 2022, 07:37 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
We saw what happened with the circus that was the OJ trial.
I think you can have transpercy without brodacasting the trial. Inevitably both sides begin playing to the TV audience, which distorts the process.
I beleive the court system should be open to scrutiny but I thin reporters in the courtroom can do that fine. I don't think you need live broaccasts of the proceedings to have public oversight.
I suspect you are not old enough to remember what a total fiasco broadcasting the OJ trial was.
You make two mistakes here. The first is assuming that it wouldnít have been a fiasco if it wasnít broadcast, the second is believing that there is no value in broadcasting a fiasco. The first is unwarranted, the second is wrong.

A fiasco behind closed doors is just as likely. Lawyers can be just as theatrical when their audience is the jury than when it is the public. In fact, itís likely worse when itís just the jury, because the jury has very limited access to information, whereas the public can much more easily find information that may contradict a lawyer (or a witness).

And when itís a fiasco, the public has a right to know. They have a right to know when prosecutors or judges or even lawyers misbehave. When itís just a court reporterís recollection of events, that stuff gets suppressed. Yes, in principle all you should need is access to the trial transcript, but in practice that just doesnít happen. A video clip is so much more effective at telling people what happened than letters on a page. Thatís reality. You may not like that, but itís not going to change.
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Old 31st May 2022, 07:40 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Did you actually listen to his words, or did you only read about what he said? Because if you actually listen to his words, his meaning is pretty clear. He never claims that Amberís lawyers wrote that. Which is why he subsequently talks about how someone with access to his phone could have written it. Heardís lawyers didnít have access to it at the time. They were not even Heardís lawyers at the time.



Again, itís possible he could be lying, but 1) you misrepresented what he actually said, and 2) they never proved he was lying, unlike Heard who was caught out on multiple lies on the stand. And Iím not even talking about the stuff where other people contradict her or where her version isnít believable, Iím talking solid incontrovertible proof of lies.
The meaning of Depp's words to Heard's attorney "You could have typed it up last night" when confronted with some very questionable texts is clear to me.
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Old 31st May 2022, 10:05 PM   #330
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
I *****g hate the corporate media and their perpetual half-truths and lying.

Apparently "Johnny Depp's fans" gave him standing ovations at a couple of gigs last weekend. This was during Jeff Beck's current tour and the first the audiences knew of his presence was when he walked on stage.

I hope people who are "informed" by these organs will have noted that they enthusiastically aided and abetted slandering Depp for years and they are not noted for retracting, let alone apologising for this kind of malfeasance.
I am wondering what you mean by this. Is there something inaccurate about how this was reported?

Apparently he has been performing each night for the last 3 nights with Beck, and Kate Moss, who recently testified in the trial, attended on the third night. All of this while the jury is still in deliberations.

https://nypost.com/2022/05/31/johnny...y-deliberates/

https://www.foxnews.com/entertainmen...london-concert

Quote:
Supermodel Kate Moss attended Johnny Depp's rock concert Tuesday in London, as he awaits a verdict in his $50 million defamation suit against his ex-wife Amber Heard, a source confirmed.

It was Depp's third performance alongside legendary guitarist Jeff Beck, and he invited Moss as his guest, according to the source.

Photos posted online show Depp on stage rocking out Tuesday — one day after receiving a standing ovation at the same venue.
Maybe your issue is that the fans in attendance are actually fans of Beck, but Depp did receive a standing ovation from them, and they have been collaborating in the past.

Quote:
The actor wore a bandana to pin back his long blonde hair. The duo performed a rendition of their 2020 collaboration “Isolation,” a cover of a song John Lennon released in 1970.
I do wonder whether it is a good idea for him to be appearing in public with Moss while the jury is still considering their verdict, although in theory it should have little bearing on the question before them, except perhaps as to her credibility as a witness.
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Old 31st May 2022, 10:44 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
... except perhaps as to her credibility as a witness.

Does it make her appear to be a victim of domestic abuse? She didn't appear in court (on a screen) as a witness of anything that happened between Heard and Depp. She appeared to deny that Depp pushed her down the stairs. That she and Depp appear to be friends in no way ruins her credibility as a witness.
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Old 1st June 2022, 01:03 AM   #332
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Does it make her appear to be a victim of domestic abuse? She didn't appear in court (on a screen) as a witness of anything that happened between Heard and Depp. She appeared to deny that Depp pushed her down the stairs. That she and Depp appear to be friends in no way ruins her credibility as a witness.
To me that they remain good friends gives more credence and credibility to what she said. Plus of course what she said seemed entirely credible, how she accidentally fell following Depp and from that I would discount those who said "I heard Depp pushed Moss down the stairs".
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Old 1st June 2022, 01:04 AM   #333
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
We saw what happened with the circus that was the OJ trial.
I think you can have transpercy without brodacasting the trial. Inevitably both sides begin playing to the TV audience, which distorts the process.
I beleive the court system should be open to scrutiny but I thin reporters in the courtroom can do that fine. I don't think you need live broaccasts of the proceedings to have public oversight.
I suspect you are not old enough to remember what a total fiasco broadcasting the OJ trial was.
I'm old enough to remember that the major issues with the Simpson trial had nothing whatsoever to do with media coverage, kid

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I think Depp can prevail in the case, but that won't help his pretty much moribund career.
Yeah, he is one year younger then Cruise, but Depp has aged pretty badly, Cruise has not.
There are credible claims that Depp has recently been given a role in a Beetlejuice sequel. Making me, shall we say, extremely skeptical as to the validity of this prediction.

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Old 1st June 2022, 04:33 AM   #334
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I am wondering what you mean by this. Is there something inaccurate about how this was reported?

Apparently he has been performing each night for the last 3 nights with Beck, and Kate Moss, who recently testified in the trial, attended on the third night. All of this while the jury is still in deliberations.

https://nypost.com/2022/05/31/johnny...y-deliberates/

https://www.foxnews.com/entertainmen...london-concert

...
I'll explain again for those with reading comprehension problems; Jeff Beck is currently touring. These were Jeff Beck concerts. The tickets were sold weeks or months ago. The audience had no idea that Johnny Depp would appear until he walked on stage. Referring to them as "Johnny Depp's fans" is therefore wilful distortion.
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Old 1st June 2022, 04:52 AM   #335
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Originally Posted by whoanellie View Post
The meaning of Depp's words to Heard's attorney "You could have typed it up last night" when confronted with some very questionable texts is clear to me.
Either you are really bad at understanding context, or you didn't actually watch all of his testimony.
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Old 1st June 2022, 07:49 AM   #336
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
An example of the kind of MSM/corporate media/"liberal" crapola that "informs" certain people (from Vox - it's a doozy);

Why the Depp-Heard trial is so much worse than you realize

(Why the MSM/corporate media is so much worse than you realise).
Quote:
Weíre like seven years away from the dominoes meme but the small domino is ďJohnny Depp cast in Nightmare On Elm streetĒ and the big domino is ďPresident Madison Cawthorne suspends 19th amendmentĒ huh
Ah, I see it now. Don't you see what's happening? This is going to lead to women losing their voting rights! Wake up Sheeple!!
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Old 1st June 2022, 08:08 AM   #337
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Originally Posted by whoanellie View Post
The meaning of Depp's words to Heard's attorney "You could have typed it up last night" when confronted with some very questionable texts is clear to me.
Clearly you don't really understand figures of speech, or the rhetorical applications of hypotheticals.
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Old 1st June 2022, 08:38 AM   #338
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
ST has said very little about what the burden of proof is, and what he has said isn't very useful in understanding it. He is correct that the "burden of proof" lies with the plaintiff, in the sense that the plaintiff needs to show something. But what you're really asking for isn't the burden of proof, but the standard of proof. And for a civil trial, including defamation, it's "preponderance of evidence". This is a much lower standard of proof than for criminal trials where the standard is "beyond reasonable doubt". What makes defamation trials generally difficult isn't the standard of proof, but the elements of the offense, ie, the things you need to show in order to win.

That makes sense. Not from a legal perspective, I mean to say, I'm afraid I don't what the actual provisions and precedents are, as far as this defamation thing, and so couldn't begin to weigh in on how those might actually apply one way or the other, but from a general common sense perspective. It sounds weird to me that the burden of proof should be reversed like this; but perhaps, as you say, the less stringent standard of proof might provide a reasonable workaround to the near-impossibility of proving a negative.
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Old 1st June 2022, 10:49 AM   #339
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BREAKING NEWS! BREAKING NEWS! A VERDICT HAS BEEN REACHED!!!

But they won't be saying what it is for about an hour or so... stay tuned.

Actually, I've only seen about a total of three minutes of this entire trial. While I have the news on almost all the time, my attention is focused on other stories.
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Old 1st June 2022, 11:09 AM   #340
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
BREAKING NEWS! BREAKING NEWS! A VERDICT HAS BEEN REACHED!!!

But they won't be saying what it is for about an hour or so... stay tuned.

Actually, I've only seen about a total of three minutes of this entire trial. While I have the news on almost all the time, my attention is focused on other stories.
Finally this obscene spectacle comes to a close.
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Old 1st June 2022, 12:08 PM   #341
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BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE!!!

The verdict was brought out, but the jurors forgot to fill out something on the paperwork. I don't know if damages and/or liability have to be listed even if it's 0$ and regardless of the verdict.

So everything's back to the jury room and now it's undetermined (interminable?) as to when this thing is going to be over.
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Old 1st June 2022, 12:18 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by Shadowdweller View Post
I'm old enough to remember that the major issues with the Simpson trial had nothing whatsoever to do with media coverage, kid

There are credible claims that Depp has recently been given a role in a Beetlejuice sequel. Making me, shall we say, extremely skeptical as to the validity of this prediction.
I see the difference between having a a leading role in a movie and a supporting role seems to pass you by.
But then a lot of things seem to pass fanboys by.
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Old 1st June 2022, 12:24 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Ah, I see it now. Don't you see what's happening? This is going to lead to women losing their voting rights! Wake up Sheeple!!
Though from what I have read of the poster we are talking abouts opinions, he would be glad to see women losing their voting rights....
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Old 1st June 2022, 12:26 PM   #344
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Jury verdict is now being read. Jury finds in Depp's favor for his claim. Jury award amount: $15 million total ($10 million damages, $5 million punitive).

Now here's the odd part: they found for one of Amber's claims, for $2 million.
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Old 1st June 2022, 12:31 PM   #345
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Time to eat crow.

Depp wins with a total of 15 mil in damages, with a caveat that Heard won 2 mil for one specific defamatory claim made by Depp.*

Certainly unexpected for me. What a difference a jury makes, I guess Heard not being very likeable made a big difference.


* Law caps punitive damages at less than half a million, so this 15 million figure isn't quite accurate. By my math it's looking like Depp comes out with 10.35 million, less the 2 he owes Amber, so 8.35 million, plus the obvious boon to his reputation.

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Old 1st June 2022, 12:34 PM   #346
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*Shrugs* It's a defamation case and both parties are functionally insane. The idea that both parties defamed the other and in a legal sense owe damages is now that surprising to me.
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Old 1st June 2022, 12:35 PM   #347
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In Virginia, punitive damages are capped at $350,000. So Depp won't get the full Jury award. But this is still a pretty big win for Depp.
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Old 1st June 2022, 12:37 PM   #348
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
In Virginia, punitive damages are capped at $350,000. So Depp won't get the full Jury award. But this is still a pretty big win for Depp.
8 million doesn't strike me as much money for a person like Depp, but I imagine it stings quite a bit for Heard who isn't near the same level of stardom.

Seems obvious that the primary motivation was the reputation rehabilitation, which was already well served before the verdict. Winning certainly puts a cherry on top though.
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Old 1st June 2022, 12:41 PM   #349
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I see the difference between having a a leading role in a movie and a supporting role seems to pass you by.
But then a lot of things seem to pass fanboys by.
Supporting roles are awesome, though. Lots of great actors have done some of their best work, and gained their greatest renown, in supporting roles. Gary Oldman, for example. There's plenty of others.

I think it's premature to insist that his career is over. Obviously if he's still getting supporting roles in mainstream Hollywood movies, his career isn't even remotely over. Especially if public opinion swings in his favor as a result of this trial. Because that's what really matters in Hollywood.

I don't think that this is about the supposed impropriety of the spectacle. I don't think it's about the alleged damage to his career. I think it's about wanting his career to be over. I think it's about wanting this trial to ruin Depp specifically. Amber Heard could stay or go, that's not important. What's important is that Johnny Depp needs to go, and this trial needs to make that happen. I think that is what is actually important, for some people.

I just can't quite figure out why. dudalb, what has Depp done, that you believe it is inevitable that he should be - for lack of a better word - canceled?
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Old 1st June 2022, 12:42 PM   #350
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
8 million doesn't strike me as much money for a person like Depp
It's not, but it's still a huge amount for a defamation claim against an individual.

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but I imagine it stings quite a bit for Heard who isn't near the same level of stardom.
Definitely. There goes her marriage settlement.

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Seems obvious that the primary motivation was the reputation rehabilitation, which was already well served before the verdict. Winning certainly puts a cherry on top though.
I would agree with this.
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Old 1st June 2022, 12:43 PM   #351
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Jury verdict is now being read. Jury finds in Depp's favor for his claim. Jury award amount: $15 million total ($10 million damages, $5 million punitive).

Now here's the odd part: they found for one of Amber's claims, for $2 million.
Yep - maybe a slap on the wrist for Adam Waldman (who as a lawyer conducted himself unprofessionally with his public comments) rather than Depp. It is somewhat contradictory given the jury accepted that Heard *did* perpetrate a defamatory hoax, including the specific instance referred to by Waldman, when she and her sycophants called 911 twice the same evening and the responders confirmed that they saw nothing to indicate a crime had occurred.
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Old 1st June 2022, 12:46 PM   #352
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It's not, but it's still a huge amount for a defamation claim against an individual.



Definitely. There goes her marriage settlement.



I would agree with this.
I get that there's a certain weird segment of the internet that thinks this whole thing has been a total vindication for Depp, but I don't see how having a court publicly dig through the dead remains of an extremely toxic relationship is a boon for anyone's reputation. They both strike me as especially unpleasant and volatile people, I wouldn't want anyone I like very much to date either of them.

I still contend that Heard should have won. I don't think it's entirely fair for her to paint the relationship as one-way abuse with her as the victim, but rather a more complicated case of mutual abuse and violence. That said, it's not defamation for someone in such a situation to claim they were violently abused, even if the unspoken implication is rather obvious and unflattering. I'm guessing that's what the jury got stuck on.

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Old 1st June 2022, 12:49 PM   #353
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Wait 'til you get a load of Heard's statement.
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Old 1st June 2022, 12:50 PM   #354
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
Yep - maybe a slap on the wrist for Adam Waldman (who as a lawyer conducted himself unprofessionally with his public comments) rather than Depp. It is somewhat contradictory given the jury accepted that Heard *did* perpetrate a defamatory hoax, including the specific instance referred to by Waldman, when she and her sycophants called 911 twice the same evening and the responders confirmed that they saw nothing to indicate a crime had occurred.
Possibly a compromise verdict made to get the jury to unanimity. Also possibly a way of saying that they didn't think Depp was completely innocent even though most of the blame is on Heard. If any of the jurors decide to speak to the press, we may find out more about their reasoning. But given the disparity in amounts of awards, and the fact that they gave zero punitive damages to Heard but large punitive damages to Depp, it's pretty clear which side the jury favored.
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Old 1st June 2022, 12:50 PM   #355
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So is Depp officially uncancelled? How does this work?

And are women really capable of lying? How is it so?
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Old 1st June 2022, 12:51 PM   #356
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Possibly a compromise verdict made to get the jury to unanimity. Also possibly a way of saying that they didn't think Depp was completely innocent even though most of the blame is on Heard. If any of the jurors decide to speak to the press, we may find out more about their reasoning. But given the disparity in amounts of awards, and the fact that they gave zero punitive damages to Heard but large punitive damages to Depp, it's pretty clear which side the jury favored.
I suppose that's why you sometimes prefer juries. Splitting the difference in this way is pretty understandable and I can see how returning a one-sided verdict in such a case might feel unsatisfying, but that's not really how the law is supposed to work. I really doubt a bench trial would have gone this way, but maybe I'm just out of touch on this one.
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Old 1st June 2022, 12:57 PM   #357
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I get that there's a certain weird segment of the internet that thinks this whole thing has been a total vindication for Depp, but I don't see how having a court publicly dig through the dead remains of an extremely toxic relationship is a boon for anyone's reputation. They both strike me as especially unpleasant and volatile people, I wouldn't want anyone I like very much to date either of them.
Depp doesn't need anyone to want to date him, he needs people to come see movies he's in. And for a lot of people, going to see a movie staring an ******* is fine, but they don't want to watch a movie with a wife beater. And he comes out of this with a jury saying that he's not a wife beater.

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I still contend that Heard should have won.
I have to ask again, how much of the trial did you actually watch? Because press coverage of the trial was pretty damn disconnected from what was actually happening in the courtroom.

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I don't think it's entirely fair for her to paint the relationship as one-way abuse with her as the victim, but rather a more complicated case of mutual abuse and violence. That said, it's not defamation for someone in such a situation to claim they were violently abused, even if the unspoken implication is rather obvious and unflattering. I'm guessing that's what the jury got stuck on.
She wasn't violently abused. Actual violent abuse looks very different. Go look up some of the pictures of Rihanna from when Chris Brown beat her up. That's what violent abuse looks like. Heard never, ever experienced anything like that from Depp.
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Old 1st June 2022, 12:58 PM   #358
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Without wishing to sound cynical, but a great PR move for Depp (and to make it extra salty for Heard) would be to pledge the damages award to the same LA kids hospital Heard "pledged" half her divorce settlement to back in 2017. That would be sweet.
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Old 1st June 2022, 01:00 PM   #359
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Worst thing about this verdict is that it's will empower those who want to put Woman back in their place.
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Old 1st June 2022, 01:03 PM   #360
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Shrugs* It's a defamation case and both parties are functionally insane. The idea that both parties defamed the other and in a legal sense owe damages is now that surprising to me.
I don;t think this will somehow "Save" Depp's career as a leading man.
That was pretty much over before this whole mess broke;he simply could not put fannies in the seat in any movie where he was not Jack Sparrow, and now he is too old for the role.
Yes, he will get parts, but I doubt they will be leading roles, and he probably won't be getting the money he used to get.
Heard's career is pretty much over also. not that she was ever really A list;she was never a box office draw the way Depp at one point was.
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