The Jan. 6 Investigation - Page 5

Skeptic Ginger · 29th July 2021, 06:46 PM

Originally Posted by Joecool

Who said the GOP congress was against "any investigation"?

Or turning the spin around, why was Pelosi against a bipartisan investigation?

You're joking right?

acbytesla · 29th July 2021, 06:49 PM

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

Did anyone die there? Felony Murder requires that those charged are involved with the crime that was happening at the time of the killing, only those directly involved can be charged, there is nothing arbitrary about that.

It's arbitrary because you're picking a single event when this insurrection was hundreds of events. If the first barricade isn't broken through there is no opportunity to break into the chambers. All these people are involved in an insurrection. In my view the guy who broke through the front door is just as guiltyas those trying to break into the Senate chamber.

Skeptic Ginger · 29th July 2021, 06:50 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

Maybe. But other windows and doors were broken through by the rioters. Do you charge anyone near those locations? This seems too arbitrary.

Come on Mr Tesla, don't be so willing to write off the guy that broke the windows in the door Babbitt climbed through when she got shot. Some of those people trying to bash down that specific door at that specific time are more than implicated in a specific crime that resulted in a death. No one is saying everyone who broke a window or a door down is connected to everything else that happened.

Skeptic Ginger · 29th July 2021, 06:53 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

It's arbitrary because you're picking a single event when this insurrection was hundreds of events. If the first barricade isn't broken through there is no opportunity to break into the chambers. All these people are involved in an insurrection. In my view the guy who broke through the front door is just as guiltyas those trying to break into the Senate chamber.

That doesn't mean this was all or none lawbreaking. It's not up to your view, it's up to the law and the prosecutors.

acbytesla · 29th July 2021, 07:00 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Come on Mr Tesla, don't be so willing to write off the guy that broke the windows in the door Babbitt climbed through when she got shot. Some of those people trying to bash down that specific door at that specific time are more than implicated in a specific crime that resulted in a death. No one is saying everyone who broke a window or a door down is connected to everything else that happened.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

That doesn't mean this was all or none lawbreaking. It's not up to your view, it's up to the law and the prosecutors.

I'm sorry, I'm not a fan of felony murder especially in theses circumstances. IMV, this is far worse. I think many of these people including Trump should see an end like Saddam Hussein. They should swing. But not for felony murder.

PhantomWolf · 29th July 2021, 07:01 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

It's arbitrary because you're picking a single event when this insurrection was hundreds of events. If the first barricade isn't broken through there is no opportunity to break into the chambers. All these people are involved in an insurrection. In my view the guy who broke through the front door is just as guiltyas those trying to break into the Senate chamber.

But that isn't how the law works. The law requires it to be only those involved in the crime occurring at the time of the death, and only those involved specifically in that crime. This is the exact opposite of arbitary. It's saying that if you were at place A and involved in the committing of Crime B when person C was killed, you are able to be charged with Felony Murder. Just because person Y was down the hallway committing crime E at the time and thus doesn't get charged, doesn't make it arbitrary. Even if Crime B and Crime E are the exact same statutes being broken unless there is a strong and valid connection between those crimes such as the participants all agreeing to do them in a conspiracy, then there is no ability to charge people outside the group commiting the crime at the time of the killing.

acbytesla · 29th July 2021, 07:04 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

That doesn't mean this was all or none lawbreaking. It's not up to your view, it's up to the law and the prosecutors.

You're right, It isn't. But my bet is no one will be charged with felony murder. We can bet avatars. The loser has to use the avatar the other picks for them for a month.

Stacyhs · 29th July 2021, 07:06 PM

Ziggurat's downplaying of the threat made to both Pence and Pelosi is duly noted:

They didn't actually FIND the people they were threatening to kill so no actual attempt was made! How dare you contend that was their intent?

This handwaving away is just typical "It wasn't that bad! You're just being emotional" crap.

acbytesla · 29th July 2021, 07:07 PM

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

But that isn't how the law works. The law requires it to be only those involved in the crime occurring at the time of the death, and only those involved specifically in that crime. This is the exact opposite of arbitary. It's saying that if you were at place A and involved in the committing of Crime B when person C was killed, you are able to be charged with Felony Murder. Just because person Y was down the hallway committing crime E at the time and thus doesn't get charged, doesn't make it arbitrary. Even if Crime B and Crime E are the exact same statutes being broken unless there is a strong and valid connection between those crimes such as the participants all agreeing to do them in a conspiracy, then there is no ability to charge people outside the group commiting the crime at the time of the killing.

OK then. You might be right.

But I stand by my argument that no one will stand trial facing that charge.

smartcooky · 29th July 2021, 07:07 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

You can call it whatever you want, it remains true. Insulting me won't change that. More investigation won't find what they've been unable to find any trace of so far.

And really, what do you expect? You expect a grand conspiracy spearheaded by the likes of that idiot with a buffalo hat and face paint? That's how you topple the US federal government? Please. They might find a few loons in a basement who "conspired", but there isn't going to be anything else, no matter how long you look.

You clearly have not read the superseding conspiracy indictments against the 12 Oath Keepers. Here is some reading for you...

https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/pres...82471/download

The indictment goes into great detail about the pre-planning, recruitment and training these people did - where they stayed, how they travelled to and from DC, and what they did on January 6, including communications and messages, code names, the equipment they brought with them such as combat gear, radio comms equipment and firearms caches held nearby with a "Quick Reaction Force" of additional, as yet unindicted members ready to go if Trump's order came and the shooting started.

You really are a long, long way behind the 8 ball here. Most everyone else here in this thread is already familiar with these facts. You have a lot of catching up to do if you want to be able to debate credibly on this topic.

Skeptic Ginger · 29th July 2021, 07:08 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

You're right, It isn't. But my bet is no one will be charged with felony murder. We can bet avatars. The loser has to use the avatar the other picks for them for a month.

I'm not giving up my adorable Arctic Snowy Owlets.

I don't know what the charges on all these guys will be. And if they plea down to lesser charges, how it that predictable?

RecoveringYuppy · 29th July 2021, 07:14 PM

Originally Posted by smartcooky

You clearly have not read the superseding conspiracy indictments against the 12 Oath Keepers. Here is some reading for you...

Could you pay more attention to what Ziggurat said? Those people are the loons in a basement he just acknowledged in the quote you just made of him.

The facts as they actually are should be fine.

dudalb · 29th July 2021, 07:15 PM

Originally Posted by Joecool

Who said the GOP congress was against "any investigation"?

Or turning the spin around, why was Pelosi against a bipartisan investigation?

Bipartisan investigation was killed by the GOP in the Senate.

You really think we are stupid enough not to know that?

That is what is annoyning about Trumpers:They all think we are as stupid as they are.

And this poster is a sad exmaple of what happens when you depend on Newxmax, FOx, and OANN for all your news.

Ziggurat · 29th July 2021, 07:20 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

No, I don't have a link to those court documents. It's likely they are still restricted to only certain clearances seeing them.

No, they are not. I already provided them.

Ziggurat · 29th July 2021, 07:22 PM

Originally Posted by smartcooky

You clearly have not read the superseding conspiracy indictments against the 12 Oath Keepers. Here is some reading for you...

You clearly didn’t read my post if you think that contradicts anything I said.

Ziggurat · 29th July 2021, 07:27 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

Ziggurat's downplaying of the threat made to both Pence and Pelosi is duly noted:

They didn't actually FIND the people they were threatening to kill so no actual attempt was made! How dare you contend that was their intent?

This handwaving away is just typical "It wasn't that bad! You're just being emotional" crap.

I said nothing about the Pence threats because I haven’t looked into them yet. I commented on the Pelosi threats that were referenced earlier because, unlike you, I actually read through the court documents that they came from. You thought they were classified and unavailable even though I already linked directly to them. How clueless is that?

And I said that no attempt was made because, get this, the woman in question never even went looking. It was always just empty posturing.

rdwight · 29th July 2021, 08:23 PM

So many thoughts on this that bounce around for me. At the time it was happening, the anxiety produced due to external things happening (to me) made it too much to follow. This was different than the general rioting going on elsewhere. Location matters. At the same time, the hyperbole in describing it is staggering. The saddest part is that I have no faith in the intentions of this investigation. Does anyone feel differently?

smartcooky · 29th July 2021, 08:45 PM

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy

Could you pay more attention to what Ziggurat said? Those people are the loons in a basement he just acknowledged in the quote you just made of him.

The facts as they actually are should be fine.

No!

He has previously claimed that no conspiracy exists. I'm going to assume he still thinks that until such time as he walks it back and admits his claim is incorrect!!!

Cain · 29th July 2021, 09:21 PM

When it comes to "life-threatening" circumstances, there's only one situation where I take officer testimony at face-value: When an agent of the state shoots unarmed Black boys. Har, har, har. In all seriousness, I'm like everyone else: I look at things on a case-by-case basis and determine if what's being said is convenient for my political beliefs.

Ziggurat · 29th July 2021, 09:32 PM

Originally Posted by smartcooky

No!

He has previously claimed that no conspiracy exists. I'm going to assume he still thinks that until such time as he walks it back and admits his claim is incorrect!!!

This is simply false. I never said there were no conspiracies of any sort. I always qualified it.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

You expect a grand conspiracy spearheaded by the likes of that idiot with a buffalo hat and face paint?

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

I doubt it. There was no grand conspiracy here.

That word is there for a reason. The kind of conspiracy that the Oathkeepers were charged with is not grand, by any stretch of the imagination. And the fact that they are already being charged also demonstrates that such pathetic conspiracies don’t require years of investigation to unravel. They come apart pretty easily.

dirtywick · 29th July 2021, 09:33 PM

Originally Posted by rdwight

So many thoughts on this that bounce around for me. At the time it was happening, the anxiety produced due to external things happening (to me) made it too much to follow. This was different than the general rioting going on elsewhere. Location matters. At the same time, the hyperbole in describing it is staggering. The saddest part is that I have no faith in the intentions of this investigation. Does anyone feel differently?

I feel a bit differently. I think the Dems plan on politically posturing as much as possible and attempting to write the narrative as much as they can, so in that sense I think the intentions aren't necessarily pure. Politicians will continue to do their jobs. But, I don't think that matters a whole lot. I think the truth looks really bad for the GOP and Trump, and I think this is so incredibly damaging that simply revealing the truth accurately is enough.

But remember why the Dems are in this position. The GOP shot down a bipartisan investigation, and the House started their own and offered bipartisan participation, and the GOP refused that also. Speaking of intentions, I'd think it would be a little curious as to why they're trying to distract by creating partisan a situation as possible and then accused the other side of being partisan. But it's pretty obvious why they don't want to talk about the investigation itself.

How bad do things look when you look into why high ranking military leaders were spooked, the shake up at the pentagon, the slow response, who called Trump during the breach and what were they talking about? They're just refusing to talk about this stuff now. Nobody wants to hear about any of that? Wonder why.

dudalb · 29th July 2021, 09:41 PM

Last time I remember joecool was here,he was telling us how wonderful Trump's Hydrocholchorline (probably misspelled that was.....

dudalb · 29th July 2021, 09:41 PM

Originally Posted by smartcooky

No!

He has previously claimed that no conspiracy exists. I'm going to assume he still thinks that until such time as he walks it back and admits his claim is incorrect!!!

Don't hold your breath.....

Skeptic Ginger · 29th July 2021, 09:42 PM

Originally Posted by rdwight

So many thoughts on this that bounce around for me. At the time it was happening, the anxiety produced due to external things happening (to me) made it too much to follow. This was different than the general rioting going on elsewhere. Location matters. At the same time, the hyperbole in describing it is staggering. The saddest part is that I have no faith in the intentions of this investigation. Does anyone feel differently?

I have faith. This is an important investigation despite the GOP attempt to cover things up. A mob attacked the Capitol and tried to stop a routine procedure done to transfer power officially from one POTUS to the next.

Dump was refusing to give up his power. Do you know just how serious that was? Seven months later and there is still bull **** going on to interfere with the last election and prevent a fair one in some states in 2022.

Liz Cheney is one of the most Conservative members in Congress. She's one of a few that have stood up for the rule of law and against the Dump cult that has taken over the GOP. Pelosi is very intelligent and certainly intends to run a clean ship.

The only reason to be concerned is if one is listening to all those Dump/GOP sycophants trying to tell whoever will listen that it is a 'witch hunt'. It is not.

Skeptic Ginger · 29th July 2021, 09:47 PM

Originally Posted by dirtywick

I feel a bit differently. I think the Dems plan on politically posturing as much as possible and attempting to write the narrative as much as they can, so in that sense I think the intentions aren't necessarily pure. Politicians will continue to do their jobs. But, I don't think that matters a whole lot. I think the truth looks really bad for the GOP and Trump, and I think this is so incredibly damaging that simply revealing the truth accurately is enough.

Which makes me ask you, then why do the Democrats need to posture and force a slanted narrative?

Originally Posted by dirtywick

How bad do things look when you look into why high ranking military leaders were spooked, the shake up at the pentagon, the slow response, who called Trump during the breach and what were they talking about? They're just refusing to talk about this stuff now. Nobody wants to hear about any of that? Wonder why.

Yes, how bad do they look?

Skeptic Ginger · 29th July 2021, 09:49 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Last time I remember joecool was here,he was telling us how wonderful Trump's Hydrocholchorline (probably misspelled that was.....

hydroxychloroquine

Cain · 29th July 2021, 09:58 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

Ziggurat's downplaying of the threat made to both Pence and Pelosi is duly noted:

They didn't actually FIND the people they were threatening to kill so no actual attempt was made! How dare you contend that was their intent?

I know little about the threats, but there is a distinction to be made between a threat and a true threat. Between someone who says they're going to blow up a school and a person who has a map of the school highlighting vulnerable entry points. A person who has reconned the school documenting arrival times of service vehicles etc. Some people had zip ties, others were caught up in a monkey-see, monkey-do.

Stacyhs · 29th July 2021, 10:48 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

I said nothing about the Pence threats because I haven’t looked into them yet. I commented on the Pelosi threats that were referenced earlier because, unlike you, I actually read through the court documents that they came from. You thought they were classified and unavailable even though I already linked directly to them. How clueless is that?

And I said that no attempt was made because, get this, the woman in question never even went looking. It was always just empty posturing.

I provided those links to the articles regarding the threats made to Pelosi and Pence at 12:17 PM.

Paul2 asked me for a link to those documents at 12:37 PM.

You provided the link to them at 12:55 PM, so when Paul2 asked me for the link at 12:37 PM, you had not yet provided them.

I read Paul2's request which came before your post to I answered him immediately.

How clueless are you for not being able to figure that out?

I said they were LIKELY classified since none of the articles I provided contained links to those documents which would be expected.

Stacyhs · 29th July 2021, 11:05 PM

Originally Posted by Cain

I know little about the threats, but there is a distinction to be made between a threat and a true threat. Between someone who says they're going to blow up a school and a person who has a map of the school highlighting vulnerable entry points. A person who has reconned the school documenting arrival times of service vehicles etc. Some people had zip ties, others were caught up in a monkey-see, monkey-do.

And when those caught up in " monkey-see, monkey-do" happen to be with those monkeys when they actually find those they're looking for and threatening to 'hang' or 'put a bullet in'? People in mobs feed off each other as we saw in that insurrection. They became more violent as they urged each other on to the point of beating police officers and calling for machetes, and to use their own guns against them. The officers refraining from using their own guns in self-defense most likely kept the mob from becoming even more violent as one officer testified.

PhantomWolf · 29th July 2021, 11:30 PM

Originally Posted by dirtywick

I feel a bit differently. I think the Dems plan on politically posturing as much as possible and attempting to write the narrative as much as they can, so in that sense I think the intentions aren't necessarily pure. Politicians will continue to do their jobs. But, I don't think that matters a whole lot. I think the truth looks really bad for the GOP and Trump, and I think this is so incredibly damaging that simply revealing the truth accurately is enough.

I don't think that the Dems need to posture on this, and in fact, I think that if they do then they will be doing themselves and the investigation a dis-service, and allow the Republicans to attack them over that and distract from the investigation itself. The reality of this is that it's going to be bad for the Republicans, it's just a question of how bad it will get. The Democrats really just need to call witnesses and let them talk, allow the chips to fall as they will, and reveal the picture of what happened in a sober and solemn way. All the Republicans and their supporters on FOX and OAN would have left is to attack the witnesses and make themselves look even worse.

So yeah, if I was in the Dems shoes, I'd just play it totally straight and let the Republicans continue to make fools of themselves as they try and distract from the overwhelming facts showing how invloved in it they all were.

Stacyhs · 29th July 2021, 11:46 PM

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

I don't think that the Dems need to posture on this, and in fact, I think that if they do then they will be doing themselves and the investigation a dis-service, and allow the Republicans to attack them over that and distract from the investigation itself. The reality of this is that it's going to be bad for the Republicans, it's just a question of how bad it will get. The Democrats really just need to call witnesses and let them talk, allow the chips to fall as they will, and reveal the picture of what happened in a sober and solemn way. All the Republicans and their supporters on FOX and OAN would have left is to attack the witnesses and make themselves look even worse.

So yeah, if I was in the Dems shoes, I'd just play it totally straight and let the Republicans continue to make fools of themselves as they try and distract from the overwhelming facts showing how invloved in it they all were.

Agreed. There is no need to embellish or spin anything in this. The facts themselves are bad enough. The GOP's claim that they just want to move forward because an investigation will just divide the country is pure bull crap. They know how responsible Trump and their support of his Big Lie is for that insurrection and they want to sweep it under the rug ASAP. Certain players, like McCarthy, are scared to death of it just how bad they're going to look if people have to testify under oath. Although we can expect a serious outbreak of the "I don't recall" flu.

dirtywick · 29th July 2021, 11:47 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Which makes me ask you, then why do the Democrats need to posture and force a slanted narrative?

You don't think they're going to give impassioned speeches and scold the GOP from the moral high ground? They're going to do that every chance they get.

Quote:

Yes, how bad do they look?

Not really sure why you're rolling your eyes, most of what's come out so far has looked awful for the GOP and they're doing everything they can to distract from the substance of the investigation out of some combination of culpability and fear of the wrath of Trump. Jim Jordan doesn't even want to admit he made a call to Trump. They do not want to talk about this stuff at all.

The Great Zaganza · 30th July 2021, 12:04 AM

We have a direct line of communication between the Oathkeepers and Roger Stone, and Roger Stone and Trump.
Not looking for a Conspiracy would be negligent.

smartcooky · 30th July 2021, 12:59 AM

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

We have a direct line of communication between the Oathkeepers and Roger Stone, and Roger Stone and Trump.
Not looking for a Conspiracy would be negligent.

.. and pretending there isn't one is ignorant.

smartcooky · 30th July 2021, 01:08 AM

Originally Posted by Cain

I know little about the threats, but there is a distinction to be made between a threat and a true threat. Between someone who says they're going to blow up a school and a person who has a map of the school highlighting vulnerable entry points. A person who has reconned the school documenting arrival times of service vehicles etc. Some people had zip ties, others were caught up in a monkey-see, monkey-do.

Does erecting a gallows and a rope with a hangman's noose at the end count?

Does arriving with zip-cuffs (not ordinary electrical zip-ties, but actual law enforcement issue zip-cuffs) count?

Or are these just examples of performance art?

uke2se · 30th July 2021, 01:18 AM

Originally Posted by smartcooky

.. and pretending there isn't one is ignorant.

No, it's not ignorance. Those who deny it know very well what they're doing.

The Great Zaganza · 30th July 2021, 01:26 AM

The fact that a member of Congress showed up to the rally in a bulletproof vest should be evidence enough that he believed that these were not harmless tourists.
And he ought to know.

PhantomWolf · 30th July 2021, 01:56 AM

Originally Posted by dirtywick

You don't think they're going to give impassioned speeches and scold the GOP from the moral high ground? They're going to do that every chance they get.

I think that they'll lose some of the position they could get without doing it. They need to leave those things to Cheney and Kinzinger.

Ziggurat · 30th July 2021, 04:58 AM

Originally Posted by Cain

I know little about the threats, but there is a distinction to be made between a threat and a true threat.

True.

Quote:

Between someone who says they're going to blow up a school and a person who has a map of the school highlighting vulnerable entry points. A person who has reconned the school documenting arrival times of service vehicles etc. Some people had zip ties, others were caught up in a monkey-see, monkey-do.

This zip tie guy found the zip ties in the capitol and picked them up. He did not bring them from home. He wasn’t planning to use them, and didn’t.

Ziggurat · 30th July 2021, 05:04 AM

Originally Posted by smartcooky

Does arriving with zip-cuffs (not ordinary electrical zip-ties, but actual law enforcement issue zip-cuffs) count?

Nobody arrived with zip cuffs. That story was debunked months ago, by the prosecutor in his case no less.
https://news.yahoo.com/capitol-riots...190644133.html

Why do so many people still believe the false version?

29th July 2021, 06:49 PM	#162
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 30,567	Originally Posted by PhantomWolf Did anyone die there? Felony Murder requires that those charged are involved with the crime that was happening at the time of the killing, only those directly involved can be charged, there is nothing arbitrary about that. It's arbitrary because you're picking a single event when this insurrection was hundreds of events. If the first barricade isn't broken through there is no opportunity to break into the chambers. All these people are involved in an insurrection. In my view the guy who broke through the front door is just as guiltyas those trying to break into the Senate chamber.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

29th July 2021, 07:00 PM	#165
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 30,567	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Come on Mr Tesla, don't be so willing to write off the guy that broke the windows in the door Babbitt climbed through when she got shot. Some of those people trying to bash down that specific door at that specific time are more than implicated in a specific crime that resulted in a death. No one is saying everyone who broke a window or a door down is connected to everything else that happened. Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger That doesn't mean this was all or none lawbreaking. It's not up to your view, it's up to the law and the prosecutors. I'm sorry, I'm not a fan of felony murder especially in theses circumstances. IMV, this is far worse. I think many of these people including Trump should see an end like Saddam Hussein. They should swing. But not for felony murder.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

29th July 2021, 07:01 PM	#166
PhantomWolf Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 21,203	Originally Posted by acbytesla It's arbitrary because you're picking a single event when this insurrection was hundreds of events. If the first barricade isn't broken through there is no opportunity to break into the chambers. All these people are involved in an insurrection. In my view the guy who broke through the front door is just as guiltyas those trying to break into the Senate chamber. But that isn't how the law works. The law requires it to be only those involved in the crime occurring at the time of the death, and only those involved specifically in that crime. This is the exact opposite of arbitary. It's saying that if you were at place A and involved in the committing of Crime B when person C was killed, you are able to be charged with Felony Murder. Just because person Y was down the hallway committing crime E at the time and thus doesn't get charged, doesn't make it arbitrary. Even if Crime B and Crime E are the exact same statutes being broken unless there is a strong and valid connection between those crimes such as the participants all agreeing to do them in a conspiracy, then there is no ability to charge people outside the group commiting the crime at the time of the killing.
	__________________ It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)

29th July 2021, 07:04 PM	#167
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 30,567	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger That doesn't mean this was all or none lawbreaking. It's not up to your view, it's up to the law and the prosecutors. You're right, It isn't. But my bet is no one will be charged with felony murder. We can bet avatars. The loser has to use the avatar the other picks for them for a month.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. . Last edited by acbytesla; 29th July 2021 at 07:05 PM.

29th July 2021, 07:07 PM	#169
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 30,567	Originally Posted by PhantomWolf But that isn't how the law works. The law requires it to be only those involved in the crime occurring at the time of the death, and only those involved specifically in that crime. This is the exact opposite of arbitary. It's saying that if you were at place A and involved in the committing of Crime B when person C was killed, you are able to be charged with Felony Murder. Just because person Y was down the hallway committing crime E at the time and thus doesn't get charged, doesn't make it arbitrary. Even if Crime B and Crime E are the exact same statutes being broken unless there is a strong and valid connection between those crimes such as the participants all agreeing to do them in a conspiracy, then there is no ability to charge people outside the group commiting the crime at the time of the killing. OK then. You might be right. But I stand by my argument that no one will stand trial facing that charge.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

29th July 2021, 06:46 PM	#161
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 92,220	Originally Posted by Joecool Who said the GOP congress was against "any investigation"? Or turning the spin around, why was Pelosi against a bipartisan investigation? You're joking right?

29th July 2021, 06:50 PM	#163
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 92,220	Originally Posted by acbytesla Maybe. But other windows and doors were broken through by the rioters. Do you charge anyone near those locations? This seems too arbitrary. Come on Mr Tesla, don't be so willing to write off the guy that broke the windows in the door Babbitt climbed through when she got shot. Some of those people trying to bash down that specific door at that specific time are more than implicated in a specific crime that resulted in a death. No one is saying everyone who broke a window or a door down is connected to everything else that happened.

29th July 2021, 06:53 PM	#164
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 92,220	Originally Posted by acbytesla It's arbitrary because you're picking a single event when this insurrection was hundreds of events. If the first barricade isn't broken through there is no opportunity to break into the chambers. All these people are involved in an insurrection. In my view the guy who broke through the front door is just as guiltyas those trying to break into the Senate chamber. That doesn't mean this was all or none lawbreaking. It's not up to your view, it's up to the law and the prosecutors.

29th July 2021, 07:06 PM	#168
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 25,326	Ziggurat's downplaying of the threat made to both Pence and Pelosi is duly noted: They didn't actually FIND the people they were threatening to kill so no actual attempt was made! How dare you contend that was their intent? This handwaving away is just typical "It wasn't that bad! You're just being emotional" crap.

29th July 2021, 07:07 PM	#170
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 21,506	Originally Posted by Ziggurat You can call it whatever you want, it remains true. Insulting me won't change that. More investigation won't find what they've been unable to find any trace of so far. And really, what do you expect? You expect a grand conspiracy spearheaded by the likes of that idiot with a buffalo hat and face paint? That's how you topple the US federal government? Please. They might find a few loons in a basement who "conspired", but there isn't going to be anything else, no matter how long you look. You clearly have not read the superseding conspiracy indictments against the 12 Oath Keepers. Here is some reading for you... https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/pres...82471/download The indictment goes into great detail about the pre-planning, recruitment and training these people did - where they stayed, how they travelled to and from DC, and what they did on January 6, including communications and messages, code names, the equipment they brought with them such as combat gear, radio comms equipment and firearms caches held nearby with a "Quick Reaction Force" of additional, as yet unindicted members ready to go if Trump's order came and the shooting started. You really are a long, long way behind the 8 ball here. Most everyone else here in this thread is already familiar with these facts. You have a lot of catching up to do if you want to be able to debate credibly on this topic.
	__________________ Science supplies evidence, invites you to analyse and evaluate that evidence, and then to draw conclusions from that Religion supplies no evidence, demands you have faith, and expects you to uncritically and automatically believe that something is true simply because "the Bible tells you so" If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list!

29th July 2021, 07:08 PM	#171
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 92,220	Originally Posted by acbytesla You're right, It isn't. But my bet is no one will be charged with felony murder. We can bet avatars. The loser has to use the avatar the other picks for them for a month. I'm not giving up my adorable Arctic Snowy Owlets. I don't know what the charges on all these guys will be. And if they plea down to lesser charges, how it that predictable?
	Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 29th July 2021 at 07:11 PM.

29th July 2021, 07:14 PM	#172
RecoveringYuppy Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 13,487	Originally Posted by smartcooky You clearly have not read the superseding conspiracy indictments against the 12 Oath Keepers. Here is some reading for you... Could you pay more attention to what Ziggurat said? Those people are the loons in a basement he just acknowledged in the quote you just made of him. The facts as they actually are should be fine.

29th July 2021, 07:15 PM	#173
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 55,572	Originally Posted by Joecool Who said the GOP congress was against "any investigation"? Or turning the spin around, why was Pelosi against a bipartisan investigation? Bipartisan investigation was killed by the GOP in the Senate. You really think we are stupid enough not to know that? That is what is annoyning about Trumpers:They all think we are as stupid as they are. And this poster is a sad exmaple of what happens when you depend on Newxmax, FOx, and OANN for all your news.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. Last edited by dudalb; 29th July 2021 at 07:17 PM.

29th July 2021, 07:20 PM	#174
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 51,742	Originally Posted by Stacyhs No, I don't have a link to those court documents. It's likely they are still restricted to only certain clearances seeing them. No, they are not. I already provided them.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

29th July 2021, 07:22 PM	#175
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 51,742	Originally Posted by smartcooky You clearly have not read the superseding conspiracy indictments against the 12 Oath Keepers. Here is some reading for you... You clearly didn’t read my post if you think that contradicts anything I said.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

29th July 2021, 07:27 PM	#176
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 51,742	Originally Posted by Stacyhs Ziggurat's downplaying of the threat made to both Pence and Pelosi is duly noted: They didn't actually FIND the people they were threatening to kill so no actual attempt was made! How dare you contend that was their intent? This handwaving away is just typical "It wasn't that bad! You're just being emotional" crap. I said nothing about the Pence threats because I haven’t looked into them yet. I commented on the Pelosi threats that were referenced earlier because, unlike you, I actually read through the court documents that they came from. You thought they were classified and unavailable even though I already linked directly to them. How clueless is that? And I said that no attempt was made because, get this, the woman in question never even went looking. It was always just empty posturing.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

29th July 2021, 08:23 PM	#177
rdwight Muse Join Date: Dec 2016 Posts: 988	So many thoughts on this that bounce around for me. At the time it was happening, the anxiety produced due to external things happening (to me) made it too much to follow. This was different than the general rioting going on elsewhere. Location matters. At the same time, the hyperbole in describing it is staggering. The saddest part is that I have no faith in the intentions of this investigation. Does anyone feel differently?
rdwight Muse Join Date: Dec 2016 Posts: 988

29th July 2021, 08:45 PM	#178
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 21,506	Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy Could you pay more attention to what Ziggurat said? Those people are the loons in a basement he just acknowledged in the quote you just made of him. The facts as they actually are should be fine. No! He has previously claimed that no conspiracy exists. I'm going to assume he still thinks that until such time as he walks it back and admits his claim is incorrect!!!
	__________________ Science supplies evidence, invites you to analyse and evaluate that evidence, and then to draw conclusions from that Religion supplies no evidence, demands you have faith, and expects you to uncritically and automatically believe that something is true simply because "the Bible tells you so" If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list!

29th July 2021, 09:21 PM	#179
Cain Straussian Join Date: May 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 15,054	When it comes to "life-threatening" circumstances, there's only one situation where I take officer testimony at face-value: When an agent of the state shoots unarmed Black boys. Har, har, har. In all seriousness, I'm like everyone else: I look at things on a case-by-case basis and determine if what's being said is convenient for my political beliefs.
	__________________ Cain: Don't be a homo. Diablo: What's that supposed to mean? Cain: It's a heteronormative remark meant to be taken at face-value.

29th July 2021, 09:32 PM	#180
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 51,742	Originally Posted by smartcooky No! He has previously claimed that no conspiracy exists. I'm going to assume he still thinks that until such time as he walks it back and admits his claim is incorrect!!! This is simply false. I never said there were no conspiracies of any sort. I always qualified it. Originally Posted by Ziggurat You expect a grand conspiracy spearheaded by the likes of that idiot with a buffalo hat and face paint? Originally Posted by Ziggurat I doubt it. There was no grand conspiracy here. That word is there for a reason. The kind of conspiracy that the Oathkeepers were charged with is not grand, by any stretch of the imagination. And the fact that they are already being charged also demonstrates that such pathetic conspiracies don’t require years of investigation to unravel. They come apart pretty easily.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

29th July 2021, 09:33 PM	#181
dirtywick Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 4,237	Originally Posted by rdwight So many thoughts on this that bounce around for me. At the time it was happening, the anxiety produced due to external things happening (to me) made it too much to follow. This was different than the general rioting going on elsewhere. Location matters. At the same time, the hyperbole in describing it is staggering. The saddest part is that I have no faith in the intentions of this investigation. Does anyone feel differently? I feel a bit differently. I think the Dems plan on politically posturing as much as possible and attempting to write the narrative as much as they can, so in that sense I think the intentions aren't necessarily pure. Politicians will continue to do their jobs. But, I don't think that matters a whole lot. I think the truth looks really bad for the GOP and Trump, and I think this is so incredibly damaging that simply revealing the truth accurately is enough. But remember why the Dems are in this position. The GOP shot down a bipartisan investigation, and the House started their own and offered bipartisan participation, and the GOP refused that also. Speaking of intentions, I'd think it would be a little curious as to why they're trying to distract by creating partisan a situation as possible and then accused the other side of being partisan. But it's pretty obvious why they don't want to talk about the investigation itself. How bad do things look when you look into why high ranking military leaders were spooked, the shake up at the pentagon, the slow response, who called Trump during the breach and what were they talking about? They're just refusing to talk about this stuff now. Nobody wants to hear about any of that? Wonder why.
dirtywick Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 4,237

29th July 2021, 09:41 PM	#182
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 55,572	Last time I remember joecool was here,he was telling us how wonderful Trump's Hydrocholchorline (probably misspelled that was.....
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

29th July 2021, 09:41 PM	#183
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 55,572	Originally Posted by smartcooky No! He has previously claimed that no conspiracy exists. I'm going to assume he still thinks that until such time as he walks it back and admits his claim is incorrect!!! Don't hold your breath.....
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

29th July 2021, 09:42 PM	#184
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 92,220	Originally Posted by rdwight So many thoughts on this that bounce around for me. At the time it was happening, the anxiety produced due to external things happening (to me) made it too much to follow. This was different than the general rioting going on elsewhere. Location matters. At the same time, the hyperbole in describing it is staggering. The saddest part is that I have no faith in the intentions of this investigation. Does anyone feel differently? I have faith. This is an important investigation despite the GOP attempt to cover things up. A mob attacked the Capitol and tried to stop a routine procedure done to transfer power officially from one POTUS to the next. Dump was refusing to give up his power. Do you know just how serious that was? Seven months later and there is still bull **** going on to interfere with the last election and prevent a fair one in some states in 2022. Liz Cheney is one of the most Conservative members in Congress. She's one of a few that have stood up for the rule of law and against the Dump cult that has taken over the GOP. Pelosi is very intelligent and certainly intends to run a clean ship. The only reason to be concerned is if one is listening to all those Dump/GOP sycophants trying to tell whoever will listen that it is a 'witch hunt'. It is not.

29th July 2021, 09:47 PM	#185
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 92,220	Originally Posted by dirtywick I feel a bit differently. I think the Dems plan on politically posturing as much as possible and attempting to write the narrative as much as they can, so in that sense I think the intentions aren't necessarily pure. Politicians will continue to do their jobs. But, I don't think that matters a whole lot. I think the truth looks really bad for the GOP and Trump, and I think this is so incredibly damaging that simply revealing the truth accurately is enough. Which makes me ask you, then why do the Democrats need to posture and force a slanted narrative? Originally Posted by dirtywick How bad do things look when you look into why high ranking military leaders were spooked, the shake up at the pentagon, the slow response, who called Trump during the breach and what were they talking about? They're just refusing to talk about this stuff now. Nobody wants to hear about any of that? Wonder why. Yes, how bad do they look?

29th July 2021, 09:49 PM	#186
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 92,220	Originally Posted by dudalb Last time I remember joecool was here,he was telling us how wonderful Trump's Hydrocholchorline (probably misspelled that was..... hydroxychloroquine

29th July 2021, 09:58 PM	#187
Cain Straussian Join Date: May 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 15,054	Getting Caught Up... Originally Posted by Stacyhs Ziggurat's downplaying of the threat made to both Pence and Pelosi is duly noted: They didn't actually FIND the people they were threatening to kill so no actual attempt was made! How dare you contend that was their intent? I know little about the threats, but there is a distinction to be made between a threat and a true threat. Between someone who says they're going to blow up a school and a person who has a map of the school highlighting vulnerable entry points. A person who has reconned the school documenting arrival times of service vehicles etc. Some people had zip ties, others were caught up in a monkey-see, monkey-do.
	__________________ Cain: Don't be a homo. Diablo: What's that supposed to mean? Cain: It's a heteronormative remark meant to be taken at face-value.

29th July 2021, 10:48 PM	#188
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 25,326	Originally Posted by Ziggurat I said nothing about the Pence threats because I haven’t looked into them yet. I commented on the Pelosi threats that were referenced earlier because, unlike you, I actually read through the court documents that they came from. You thought they were classified and unavailable even though I already linked directly to them. How clueless is that? And I said that no attempt was made because, get this, the woman in question never even went looking. It was always just empty posturing. I provided those links to the articles regarding the threats made to Pelosi and Pence at 12:17 PM. Paul2 asked me for a link to those documents at 12:37 PM. You provided the link to them at 12:55 PM, so when Paul2 asked me for the link at 12:37 PM, you had not yet provided them. I read Paul2's request which came before your post to I answered him immediately. How clueless are you for not being able to figure that out? I said they were LIKELY classified since none of the articles I provided contained links to those documents which would be expected.

29th July 2021, 11:05 PM	#189
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 25,326	Originally Posted by Cain I know little about the threats, but there is a distinction to be made between a threat and a true threat. Between someone who says they're going to blow up a school and a person who has a map of the school highlighting vulnerable entry points. A person who has reconned the school documenting arrival times of service vehicles etc. Some people had zip ties, others were caught up in a monkey-see, monkey-do. And when those caught up in " monkey-see, monkey-do" happen to be with those monkeys when they actually find those they're looking for and threatening to 'hang' or 'put a bullet in'? People in mobs feed off each other as we saw in that insurrection. They became more violent as they urged each other on to the point of beating police officers and calling for machetes, and to use their own guns against them. The officers refraining from using their own guns in self-defense most likely kept the mob from becoming even more violent as one officer testified.

29th July 2021, 11:30 PM	#190
PhantomWolf Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 21,203	Originally Posted by dirtywick I feel a bit differently. I think the Dems plan on politically posturing as much as possible and attempting to write the narrative as much as they can, so in that sense I think the intentions aren't necessarily pure. Politicians will continue to do their jobs. But, I don't think that matters a whole lot. I think the truth looks really bad for the GOP and Trump, and I think this is so incredibly damaging that simply revealing the truth accurately is enough. I don't think that the Dems need to posture on this, and in fact, I think that if they do then they will be doing themselves and the investigation a dis-service, and allow the Republicans to attack them over that and distract from the investigation itself. The reality of this is that it's going to be bad for the Republicans, it's just a question of how bad it will get. The Democrats really just need to call witnesses and let them talk, allow the chips to fall as they will, and reveal the picture of what happened in a sober and solemn way. All the Republicans and their supporters on FOX and OAN would have left is to attack the witnesses and make themselves look even worse. So yeah, if I was in the Dems shoes, I'd just play it totally straight and let the Republicans continue to make fools of themselves as they try and distract from the overwhelming facts showing how invloved in it they all were.
	__________________ It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)

29th July 2021, 11:46 PM	#191
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 25,326	Originally Posted by PhantomWolf I don't think that the Dems need to posture on this, and in fact, I think that if they do then they will be doing themselves and the investigation a dis-service, and allow the Republicans to attack them over that and distract from the investigation itself. The reality of this is that it's going to be bad for the Republicans, it's just a question of how bad it will get. The Democrats really just need to call witnesses and let them talk, allow the chips to fall as they will, and reveal the picture of what happened in a sober and solemn way. All the Republicans and their supporters on FOX and OAN would have left is to attack the witnesses and make themselves look even worse. So yeah, if I was in the Dems shoes, I'd just play it totally straight and let the Republicans continue to make fools of themselves as they try and distract from the overwhelming facts showing how invloved in it they all were. Agreed. There is no need to embellish or spin anything in this. The facts themselves are bad enough. The GOP's claim that they just want to move forward because an investigation will just divide the country is pure bull crap. They know how responsible Trump and their support of his Big Lie is for that insurrection and they want to sweep it under the rug ASAP. Certain players, like McCarthy, are scared to death of it just how bad they're going to look if people have to testify under oath. Although we can expect a serious outbreak of the "I don't recall" flu.

29th July 2021, 11:47 PM	#192
dirtywick Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 4,237	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Which makes me ask you, then why do the Democrats need to posture and force a slanted narrative? You don't think they're going to give impassioned speeches and scold the GOP from the moral high ground? They're going to do that every chance they get. Quote: Yes, how bad do they look? Not really sure why you're rolling your eyes, most of what's come out so far has looked awful for the GOP and they're doing everything they can to distract from the substance of the investigation out of some combination of culpability and fear of the wrath of Trump. Jim Jordan doesn't even want to admit he made a call to Trump. They do not want to talk about this stuff at all.
dirtywick Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 4,237

30th July 2021, 12:04 AM	#193
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 18,106	We have a direct line of communication between the Oathkeepers and Roger Stone, and Roger Stone and Trump. Not looking for a Conspiracy would be negligent.
	__________________ "When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me." - Emo Philips

30th July 2021, 12:59 AM	#194
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 21,506	Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza We have a direct line of communication between the Oathkeepers and Roger Stone, and Roger Stone and Trump. Not looking for a Conspiracy would be negligent. .. and pretending there isn't one is ignorant.
	__________________ Science supplies evidence, invites you to analyse and evaluate that evidence, and then to draw conclusions from that Religion supplies no evidence, demands you have faith, and expects you to uncritically and automatically believe that something is true simply because "the Bible tells you so" If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list!

30th July 2021, 01:08 AM	#195
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 21,506	Originally Posted by Cain I know little about the threats, but there is a distinction to be made between a threat and a true threat. Between someone who says they're going to blow up a school and a person who has a map of the school highlighting vulnerable entry points. A person who has reconned the school documenting arrival times of service vehicles etc. Some people had zip ties, others were caught up in a monkey-see, monkey-do. Does erecting a gallows and a rope with a hangman's noose at the end count? Does arriving with zip-cuffs (not ordinary electrical zip-ties, but actual law enforcement issue zip-cuffs) count? Or are these just examples of performance art?
	__________________ Science supplies evidence, invites you to analyse and evaluate that evidence, and then to draw conclusions from that Religion supplies no evidence, demands you have faith, and expects you to uncritically and automatically believe that something is true simply because "the Bible tells you so" If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list!