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Old 3rd June 2022, 12:45 PM   #81
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Like I said.

Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
The [TRAs] have an argument that seems to go, "some people have anomalies in their sex chromosomes and some people have congenital malformations of their sex organs, therefore normal intact men with no anomalies of either chromosomes or sex organs should be allowed to claim the identity of "woman" and enter all women's intimate spaces. Hairy cock and balls and all." No it makes no sense.
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Old 3rd June 2022, 04:13 PM   #82
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I found this to be a worthwhile read on the topic of DSDs and the term "intersex".

https://differently-normal.com/2021/...n-of-intersex/
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Old 3rd June 2022, 08:29 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
There are two obviously different sexes. The vast majority of people develop in ways that make them easily divided into the two obviously different sexes. In some extreme edge cases the division becomes somewhat more difficult.

And, as always, this is about traducing some very rare edge cases into justification for claiming that transsexual identity really does transcend the biological binary of sex.
With a LOT of blurring between the two, more than those with an axe to grind are willing to admit. Because the same tissues give rise to the external organs of both sexes, the degree of sex-normative appearance varies from individual to individual. There's the foot-long males, who are the extreme end of the obviously-male spectrum, and the females who have almost no externally visible clitoris. Then there's the labia, same tissue which form the scrotum, and the wide variety of morphologies those tissues can show (of which we have decided which are 'normal', and which require surgical involvement).

And that's only the externally visible bits. When I went through microbiology one of the tests the class used to do was genotyping where students would spot out their blood to show whether they were XX or XY, and the professor said why we no longer did the test is that students kept finding out they were XXX or XYY or even more chromosomes and that's not a private way to find out such a private (and potentially damaging, with the belief that extra sex chromosomes damage the person, making them more prone to crime and less intelligent) medical datum. That's why I say that the rate of genetypic abnormalities is unknown, because 'students in a particular class at a particular university' are not a representative group---but obviously extra sex chromosomes aren't *that* damaging, if they've made it to college.

I really don't know why anyone wants to staunchly defend a public restroom. I've cleaned them both, and there's nothing sacred about a women's restroom, nor about a men's. They're both places with toilets and sinks. Wouldn't it be better to seek to protect something like a lactation room, only needed for the sacred arts of motherhood? (TERFs are still ignoring FtM I note)
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Old 3rd June 2022, 08:51 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
And, as always, this is about traducing some very rare edge cases into justification for claiming that transsexual identity really does transcend the biological binary of sex.
People will always try to find justifications for their behavior - and who are we to deny them? It's not like we haven't done the same...
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Old 4th June 2022, 12:19 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post

I really don't know why anyone wants to staunchly defend a public restroom. I've cleaned them both, and there's nothing sacred about a women's restroom, nor about a men's. They're both places with toilets and sinks. Wouldn't it be better to seek to protect something like a lactation room, only needed for the sacred arts of motherhood? (TERFs are still ignoring FtM I note)
Which planet do you live on?
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Old 4th June 2022, 01:23 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
(TERFs are still ignoring FtM I note)
As well they should be, in a thread which isn't about unambiguous F's who want to be perceived as M's, but rather those who have not been blessed with unambiguous sexual morphology.

I get that LGBTQ has recently gained an "I" at the end, but that doesn't mean we have to discuss all the letters in any thread about any one of them.

Happy Pride Month, BTW.
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Old 4th June 2022, 05:42 PM   #87
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Also, everyone's forgetting about the SRY gene and its role in sex determination (or confusion). There are probably several other genes that are involved too, according to the research scientists. So it really isn't just a binary. Look up an overview of it.
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Old 4th June 2022, 05:48 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
Also, everyone's forgetting about the SRY gene and its role in sex determination (or confusion). There are probably several other genes that are involved too, according to the research scientists. So it really isn't just a binary. Look up an overview of it.
Tell us what the third sex is, and its role in procreation.
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Old 4th June 2022, 08:21 PM   #89
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Surprisingly, not every gene has a role in reproduction. Some are involved in little details like organ formation. Honestly, read a book, read a scientific paper, don't try to turn everything into a talking point.
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Old 4th June 2022, 11:51 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
Which planet do you live on?
One with interior plumbing? I've two bathrooms of my own, and guess what, both sexes here use them.
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Old 5th June 2022, 12:59 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
One with interior plumbing? I've two bathrooms of my own, and guess what, both sexes here use them.
Great. PM me your address and I'll pass it on to my friends in case they are caught short in your neighbourhood.
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Old 5th June 2022, 03:27 AM   #92
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Sure. Weird thing to be aggressive about. Everybody poops, and none of it's roses.
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Old 5th June 2022, 05:11 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
Surprisingly, not every gene has a role in reproduction. Some are involved in little details like organ formation. Honestly, read a book, read a scientific paper, don't try to turn everything into a talking point.
Then tell us more about the characteristic organs of the third sex. Is it an unusual mix of the usual organs?
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Old 5th June 2022, 04:35 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I was surprised to learn (for example) that individuals with de la Chapelle syndromeWP may be fully masculinized due to the presence of an anomalous SRY gene, despite being genetically 46,XX.
. . .

Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
Also, everyone's forgetting about the SRY gene and its role in sex determination (or confusion).
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Old 5th June 2022, 04:46 PM   #95
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Not a third sex. Just a weird mix and match failure mode in binary sex development. Arth's proposition that such things represent additional sexes beyond the two actual ones is like saying that people with cancer are a different species.
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Old 5th June 2022, 04:52 PM   #96
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Or people with a cleft palate.
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Old 6th June 2022, 10:39 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
Surprisingly, not every gene has a role in reproduction. Some are involved in little details like organ formation. Honestly, read a book, read a scientific paper, don't try to turn everything into a talking point.
But when the topic is actually about sex, and DSDs, it is a relevant question. So don't sidestep: please explain the other sexes that exist in mammals, and how they play into reproduction.
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Old 6th June 2022, 10:40 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
One with interior plumbing? I've two bathrooms of my own, and guess what, both sexes here use them.
Oooh... and do you allow complete strangers to wander in and use the same bathroom as you while you are in there peeing?
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Old 6th June 2022, 01:18 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
But when the topic is actually about sex, and DSDs, it is a relevant question. So don't sidestep: please explain the other sexes that exist in mammals, and how they play into reproduction.
Why only mammals? Are you speciesist? Do you consider those incapable of reproducing to not be members of their species?

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/a...l-pennsylvania
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Old 6th June 2022, 01:24 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
Why only mammals? Are you speciesist? Do you consider those incapable of reproducing to not be members of their species?

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/a...l-pennsylvania
Resolved: There are at least three sexes in mammals. Males, females, and females that have gone through menopause.
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Old 6th June 2022, 02:05 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
Why only mammals? Are you speciesist? Do you consider those incapable of reproducing to not be members of their species?

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/a...l-pennsylvania
Because mammals have specialized aspects of reproduction, sexual reproduction is obligate in mammals, development of the two reproductive tracts is antagonistic (and we are mammals)...
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Old 6th June 2022, 02:33 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
Also, everyone's forgetting about the SRY gene and its role in sex determination (or confusion). There are probably several other genes that are involved too, according to the research scientists. So it really isn't just a binary. Look up an overview of it.
No, everyone has not forgotten SRY - See page 1 of the thread.
What is your point about it?

There multiple genes involved in the formation of every organ and system that I can think of. The odd thing is that (some) people are trying to frame inarguably deleterious mutations (i.e. harmful in the broad sense) as natural variants, sort of like claiming that being blind is a kind of sight.

If you want to take that tact, there are very few (any?) statements that you can make about humans that don't have exceptions - (e.g. 46 chromosomes, visually oriented, 5 digits/limbs, ability to speak, well-developed frontal cortex, etc.) if you count strongly selected against mutations.


Also, DSDs are a loosely grouped together set of conditions with arbitrary boundaries. Some do not consider congenital adrenal hyperplasia a DSD (and it only arguably is in females), but for those with an interest in inflating the stats, it's critical (to their argument of DSDs being common). At the same time, mutations in CFTR (cystic fibrosis gene) result in males with no vas deferens, but it's not typically considered a DSD. Males with mutations in SOX2 (an SRY family member) often have genital abnormalities, but it's also not considered a DSD (these patients have ocular and other defects).
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Old 6th June 2022, 05:09 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
Why only mammals? Are you speciesist? Do you consider those incapable of reproducing to not be members of their species?

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/a...l-pennsylvania
Nice deflection! 10 points for not engaging!

But more seriously: Mammals because EVERY SINGLE MAMMAL ON THE PLANET IS EITHER MALE OR FEMALE, THERE IS NO THIRD SEX, AND THERE IS NO IN BETWEEN SEX. It's true of the vast majority of vertebrates too, but there are some exceptions so it's easier to just limit it to mammals. It also has the handy effect of excluding appeals to slime molds.

And... because it actually somehow needs to be said these days, which really blows my mind, infertile or non-reproducing members of a species are STILL members of that species, and indeed, are still either male or female!

A gelding is still an adult male horse.
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Old 6th June 2022, 05:59 PM   #104
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Is a spayed dog still a female? She has no uterus, no ovaries, no hormone production...

Also, I wasn't going to bother hauling slime molds out, there are plenty of higher animals with interesting reproductive habits, like parthenogenesis among reptiles, the aforementioned "half and half" birds, some of which are fertile females, if the left side of the bird is the female half. Or we can go to the bizarre reproductive life of the cute little clownfish, which stays agender until the only male in the group dies. Then if it's the top of the pecking order, it becomes the new male. If the female in the group dies instead, the male becomes female, and again, the top agender fish becomes male.

Animals with social groupings, even clownfish, generally have roles for non-reproductive members. This is apparently why two of the most socially evolved species, humans and orcas, have menopause in their females. They become highly valued members of the community, helping to raise children, make clothing, and other non-warlike tasks.

In humans, this has also been seen in cultures with gay or transgender members (not to mention gay penguins). Those with visible signs of intersexuality were usually seen as close to the spirits or gods, and became shamanic figures. Those with no outward signs of intersexuality were simply people who weren't graced with children.

Shall I go on, or are you just going to wave it away with another talking point? I was raised to be kind and polite to people, which is why I generally just avoid these threads. I certainly don't want to be dragged down to the level of discourse the trans women thread has reached. But answer me one question: if you believe that intersex people are deformed, what is your "solution" to the problem? Should they be locked up? Forced to wear labels in public? Something worse? We already have someone suggesting that the number of transgender people needs to be reduced. Do we just throw the intersex in with them? And, like Ohio school sports, who is supposed to pay for all the genetic testing?

Being cruel to people is so complicated. So many things to keep track of. So many people accusing others of things they themselves are guilty of. But when things go wrong, there must be a scapegoat, or people might direct their rage in the right direction.
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Old 6th June 2022, 06:24 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
But more seriously: Mammals because EVERY SINGLE MAMMAL ON THE PLANET IS EITHER MALE OR FEMALE, THERE IS NO THIRD SEX, AND THERE IS NO IN BETWEEN SEX.
I mean, this just isn't true. Hermaphroditic chimeras exist. Autofertilization is even possible in some mammalian species.
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Old 6th June 2022, 07:43 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
But answer me one question: if you believe that intersex people are deformed, what is your "solution" to the problem?
The most common problem experienced by those with DSDs is infertility, but as it happens there are plenty of children in need of families.
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Old 7th June 2022, 12:32 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
I mean, this just isn't true. Hermaphroditic chimeras exist. Autofertilization is even possible in some mammalian species.
Which mammalian species?
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Old 7th June 2022, 01:00 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
Shall I go on, or are you just going to wave it away with another talking point?
No, I'm just going to wave it away because your talking points are very tired and now i feel sleepy. xox

Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
We already have someone suggesting that the number of transgender people needs to be reduced.
No they're not. They're suggesting that children with gender dysphoria shouldn't be unnecessarily "transed", given puberty blockers, when going through puberty is mostly how these children come to terms with their sexed bodies.
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Old 7th June 2022, 01:02 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Manger Douse View Post
Which mammalian species?
Itís been observed in rabbits.
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Old 7th June 2022, 01:47 AM   #110
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NM - found it

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Old 7th June 2022, 04:02 AM   #111
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This reminds me of the twitter profile of a woman with a DSD. It simply reads "Not a clownfish".

The way these people are treated is beyond insulting.
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Old 7th June 2022, 05:29 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
I mean, this just isn't true. Hermaphroditic chimeras exist. Autofertilization is even possible in some mammalian species.

Yes, there are old papers that breathlessly describe case studies of individual mammals with both ovarian and testicular tissue as "true hermaphrodites", then further in note that one or both gonads/reproductive tracts are underdeveloped/rudimentary. Note even in that one putative case of auto-fertilization in a domestic rabbit (that you seem to be referring to), the abstract notes "when autopsied was again pregnant and demonstrated two functional ovaries and two infertile testes.

If mammals could commonly do this, it would be about as subtle as if megalodon were still in the seas.

Bigger picture: No, there are no mammalian species that have been shown to have a class of individuals that reproduce via both oocyte and sperm production - and certainly not humans. Again, the development and maintenance of the mammalian female and male reproductive systems are antagonistic to each other. Further, there are obvious reasons why being a hermaphrodite/auto-fertilization would be selected against.

But here's where you are really getting DSDs wrong: Suppose mammals did have such a group (i.e. a class capable of successful reproduction with both gametes)- they would be both female and male and presumably a variant under some positive selection.

In contrast, people with DSDs have (often severely) reduced fertility or are completely infertile. On top of that, there are often other health issues. People with CAH (Again, the most common condition considered a DSD, but only in females) have varying degrees of issues with regulating physiological salt levels, which can be lethal.

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Old 7th June 2022, 05:47 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
This reminds me of the twitter profile of a woman with a DSD. It simply reads "Not a clownfish".

The way these people are treated is beyond insulting.
Agreed. And unfortunately, I get the sense there are now people pretending to have a DSD/ "identifying as intersex"..
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Old 7th June 2022, 05:58 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Louden Wilde View Post
Agreed. And unfortunately, I get the sense there are now people pretending to have a DSD/ "identifying as intersex"..

I had a short conversation on Twitter with a man who has Klinefelter's syndrome. He said that it's almost impossible to find a support group for people with DSDs that hasn't been infiltrated by, overwhelmed by, or was even set up in the first place by people with imaginary DSD conditions.

He spoke of people refusing to say what their diagnosis was, people getting offended by being asked what their diagnosis was (not considered an intrusive question in a support group for people with such conditions), and people claiming to have impossible chromosome complements.

He was banned from one group for daring to talk about his specific diagnosis and its problems.

ETA: I remember the Yaniv debacle, where he claimed in court that he had "both sets of sex organs". Which is of course impossible, but nobody challenged it. You only have to look at the social media posts he was making at the time to see that he's a narcissistic AGP man with a creepy menstruation fetish and an unhealthy interest in young girls just beginning to menstruate.
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Last edited by Rolfe; 7th June 2022 at 06:01 AM.
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Old 7th June 2022, 09:52 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
Is a spayed dog still a female? She has no uterus, no ovaries, no hormone production...
A spayed dog's anatomy is still arranged around the production of ova, even though some of those organs have been removed. This is a shallow argument, and it's completely inane.

Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
Also, I wasn't going to bother hauling slime molds out, there are plenty of higher animals with interesting reproductive habits, like parthenogenesis among reptiles, the aforementioned "half and half" birds, some of which are fertile females, if the left side of the bird is the female half. Or we can go to the bizarre reproductive life of the cute little clownfish, which stays agender until the only male in the group dies. Then if it's the top of the pecking order, it becomes the new male. If the female in the group dies instead, the male becomes female, and again, the top agender fish becomes male.

Animals with social groupings, even clownfish, generally have roles for non-reproductive members.
None of which has anything at all to do with humans. It's deflection and misdirection, and it serves only to obfuscate what is a very clear reality of mammals.

Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
This is apparently why two of the most socially evolved species, humans and orcas, have menopause in their females. They become highly valued members of the community, helping to raise children, make clothing, and other non-warlike tasks.

In humans, this has also been seen in cultures with gay or transgender members (not to mention gay penguins). Those with visible signs of intersexuality were usually seen as close to the spirits or gods, and became shamanic figures. Those with no outward signs of intersexuality were simply people who weren't graced with children.
And yet... all of those have a reproductive anatomy arranged around the production of either sperm or ova. So your entire argument is facile and disingenuous.

Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
Shall I go on, or are you just going to wave it away with another talking point? I was raised to be kind and polite to people, which is why I generally just avoid these threads. I certainly don't want to be dragged down to the level of discourse the trans women thread has reached. But answer me one question: if you believe that intersex people are deformed, what is your "solution" to the problem? Should they be locked up? Forced to wear labels in public? Something worse?
WTAF? Please don't imagineer hyperbolic positions and assign them to me. It is disingenuous. Acknowledging that someone has a medical condition is in absolutely NO WAY AT ALL implying that they should be mistreated. Seriously, why on earth would you even go there? This is something coming from YOUR mind, not mine.

Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
We already have someone suggesting that the number of transgender people needs to be reduced. Do we just throw the intersex in with them? And, like Ohio school sports, who is supposed to pay for all the genetic testing?
You should probably take the time to actually read the bill itself and inform your view, rather than just parroting a propagandistic sound bite.

Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
Being cruel to people is so complicated. So many things to keep track of. So many people accusing others of things they themselves are guilty of. But when things go wrong, there must be a scapegoat, or people might direct their rage in the right direction.
Lol, the only person being cruel here is you. You're the one contemplating people with CCSDs (a term that they prefer) being excluded from society, being deformed, and being mistreated. I've suggested nothing of the sort. In fact, I rather stridently advocate that people with CCSDs should be able to access appropriate medical treatment, and should NOT be USED as pawns in some ideological war about gender identity that has nothing to do with them.
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Old 7th June 2022, 09:58 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
I mean, this just isn't true. Hermaphroditic chimeras exist. Autofertilization is even possible in some mammalian species.
It's hypothetically possible in chimeric or mosaic hermaphrodites. Which are, of course, two individuals mixed together. They contain more than one distinct set of genetic material. To the best of my knowledge, there has been exactly ONE case of a sexual chimera self-fertilizing, that being a domestic rabbit.

Take a step back and think about this for just a moment. Would you be willing to say that it just isn't true that humans have a single heart... because there exist some conjoint twins with two hearts?
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Old 7th June 2022, 10:01 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
Itís been observed in rabbits.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full...8.2018.1429372

Correction to the original article. It was observed in ONE rabbit, which was a chimera.
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Old 7th June 2022, 10:03 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
This reminds me of the twitter profile of a woman with a DSD. It simply reads "Not a clownfish".

The way these people are treated is beyond insulting.
I follow and interact with several people with CCSDs, and am related to one. The treatment is incredibly dehumanizing, and it's presenting a barrier to getting appropriate medical care.
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Old 7th June 2022, 10:07 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Louden Wilde View Post
Agreed. And unfortunately, I get the sense there are now people pretending to have a DSD/ "identifying as intersex"..
Yep. And it's creating a situation where people with actual real DSDs are having trouble attaining proper treatment because their caregivers end up assuming that it's an "identity". Unless they have access to an actual specialist with knowledge of their specific condition, being appropriated by the trans umbrella corp is doing actual real harm to people with genuine medical conditions.

I'm so incredibly furious about this. I have a relative with a rare condition that prevents them going through puberty without exogenous hormones. Their specialist retired a couple of years ago, and their new endocrinologist knows nothing about the condition. They had to argue for several months because the doctor didn't want to prescribe them hormones unless they had a diagnosis of gender dysphoria to go with their "identity" of "intersex".
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Old 7th June 2022, 10:11 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
It's hypothetically possible in chimeric or mosaic hermaphrodites.
Not just hypothetically possible, but has in fact happened.

Quote:
Which are, of course, two individuals mixed together.
No.

Quote:
They contain more than one distinct set of genetic material.
Yes.

Quote:
To the best of my knowledge, there has been exactly ONE case of a sexual chimera self-fertilizing, that being a domestic rabbit.
Yes, but it's not like we go out into the world looking for animals with both fertile ova and testes.

In some species, it's probably relatively common. Chimerism (including germ line chimerism) is extremely common among marmosets, for example.

In any case, your all-caps claim isn't true. Some individual mammals are in fact genuinely sex ambiguous.
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