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Tags donald trump , Trump administration , Trump controversies

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Old 31st December 2021, 11:31 PM   #201
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Warp12 has made it clear that he thinks criticising bad people for doing bad things automatically makes good people who do good things just as bad, and deserving of having bad things said about them in return. So don't hold your breath for such a response.
Let's be honest here: "Good" and "Bad" are often subjective terms. In this forum, the default is that conservative views and people are generally "bad".

People often make disparaging remarks about others, primarily because of their political affiliation and views. I see this whole "good" and "bad" as more of the "us vs. them" attitude, in many cases. Especially around here.

You can't really tell me it is ok to wish death or suffering upon someone if you are a Dem, but it is not ok to do it if you are a conservative. That all comes back to this subjective realm of what defines good and bad. I mean, think of this: I have been accused of voting for Trump, and even accused of being a Christian, here...apparently those things would make me a "bad" person. Imagine how dumb it would sound if I were accusing people of voting for Biden and being atheists. But that is this little world.

The hypocrisy level is through the roof. And some people don't like to hear it.
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Old 31st December 2021, 11:33 PM   #202
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is it bad to claim that the election was stolen when it clearly wasn't?
or is that good?
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Old 31st December 2021, 11:42 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
is it bad to claim that the election was stolen when it clearly wasn't?
or is that good?
It is a false claim. I think that many people believe it to be true, though. I wouldn't call it "good", but I wouldn't characterize everyone who believes it as being a "bad" person.

Again, though, we were talking primarily about a war of ugly words. So, in my mind, if you decide these are bad people based upon such a thing, and you make distasteful remarks about them, you should expect the same, and possibly worse in return, when they deem something you do as being wrong.

You don't get to whine and cry about it. You've already played your hand, virtue-wise.

Last edited by Warp12; 31st December 2021 at 11:44 PM.
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Old 31st December 2021, 11:44 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
is it bad to claim that the election was stolen when it clearly wasn't?
or is that good?
It's bad beyond the ordinary sense of bad. It teases the border of treason bad.
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Old 1st January 2022, 12:04 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
It is a false claim. I think that many people believe it to be true, though. I wouldn't call it "good", but I wouldn't characterize everyone who believes it as being a "bad" person.

Again, though, we were talking primarily about a war of ugly words. So, in my mind, if you decide these are bad people based upon such a thing, and you make distasteful remarks about them, you should expect the same, and possibly worse in return, when they deem something you do as being wrong.

You don't get to whine and cry about it. You've already played your hand, virtue-wise.
Here, I'll alter that question slightly.

Is it bad to claim that the election was stolen when it one knows that it wasn't as a political strategy, especially when one knows that it's not even close to a harmless lie?
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Last edited by Aridas; 1st January 2022 at 12:07 AM.
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Old 1st January 2022, 12:09 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Let's be honest here: "Good" and "Bad" are often subjective terms.
That's obviously true, but it's still possible to define these terms by an objective measure (number of people harmed, say) and to compare the policies and actions of different political parties using that measure.

Quote:
You can't really tell me it is ok to wish death or suffering upon someone if you are a Dem, but it is not ok to do it if you are a conservative.
I wouldn't tell you that, no. I would, however, have more sympathy and understanding for the wishing of death and suffering on someone who is doing other people real harm than on someone who is trying to make their lives better.

Quote:
The hypocrisy level is through the roof. And some people don't like to hear it.
It's only hypocrisy if the two cases being compared are truly comparable. Sometimes they are, and your criticism is justified. And sometimes they aren't, and pretending they are is disingenuous.
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Old 1st January 2022, 12:12 AM   #207
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Democrats, in the person of Al Gore, had a very solid claim to have their election stolen. But Gore believed that trust in elections was more important than winning.
mower, we have a majority of Republican who think winning is more important.

It takes a special kind of effort to "both side" what is going on today.
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Old 1st January 2022, 12:15 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Here, I'll alter that question slightly.

Is it bad to claim that the election was stolen when it one knows that it wasn't as a political strategy, especially when one knows that it's not even close to a harmless lie?
Yes, that is bad, in my view.

However, if you use that as your excuse to engage in hateful rhetoric, you should expect exactly the same in return when you or those you support are deemed bad by those with opposing views. It sets the tone of the battle.

Nobody should be crying foul over it.
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Old 1st January 2022, 12:19 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Democrats, in the person of Al Gore, had a very solid claim to have their election stolen. But Gore believed that trust in elections was more important than winning.
More likely, he simply saw the writing on the wall: he wasn't going to win Florida. This was pretty clear.

Knowing that, he took the opportunity to do the best thing he could...present an image of virtue for the party.

Your claim is the typical Dem game: "We did this because we are so virtuous!". Ignoring political reality in the process.

Last edited by Warp12; 1st January 2022 at 12:21 AM.
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Old 1st January 2022, 12:33 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Yes, that is bad, in my view.

However, if you use that as your excuse to engage in hateful rhetoric, you should expect exactly the same in return when you or those you support are deemed bad by those with opposing views. It sets the tone of the battle.

Nobody should be crying foul over it.
There's a big if that should be there. "If" the criticisms are properly comparable and solidly based in fact and reason. There's quite the history of remarkable dishonesty on that front, especially from right-wing propagandists in the last few decades.
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Old 1st January 2022, 01:10 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
More likely, he simply saw the writing on the wall: he wasn't going to win Florida. This was pretty clear.

Knowing that, he took the opportunity to do the best thing he could...present an image of virtue for the party.

Your claim is the typical Dem game: "We did this because we are so virtuous!". Ignoring political reality in the process.

the facts are different. and your argument seems to be that doing virtuous things for bad reasons is worse (or at least equivalent) than doing bad things for virtuous reasons.

but I guess even you agree that Gore had a much better claim of having been robbed of his Presidency than Trump has, right?
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Old 1st January 2022, 01:11 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
but I guess even you agree that Gore had a much better claim of having been robbed of his Presidency than Trump has, right?
Absolutely, I agree.
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Old 1st January 2022, 01:39 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Absolutely, I agree.
thanks for that.

coming from a sense that Republicans already stole an election from them, Democrats are extra sensitive to current efforts to undermine the legitimacy of a fair one, and doubly worried about Republicans rigging future elections.

given the rhetoric used by most Republicans and right-wing talking heads, and efforts we see Red States make, these worries seem far from unfounded.
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Old 1st January 2022, 07:57 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
It is a false claim. I think that many people believe it to be true, though. I wouldn't call it "good", but I wouldn't characterize everyone who believes it as being a "bad" person.

Again, though, we were talking primarily about a war of ugly words. So, in my mind, if you decide these are bad people based upon such a thing, and you make distasteful remarks about them, you should expect the same, and possibly worse in return, when they deem something you do as being wrong.

You don't get to whine and cry about it. You've already played your hand, virtue-wise.
That didn't answer the question.
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Old 1st January 2022, 11:22 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
That didn't answer the question.
A good idea would be to read all of the questions and comments.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=208
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Old 3rd January 2022, 08:40 AM   #216
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Person A murders 10 people in the street.
Person B jaywalks.

Warp12 is saying that both people are criminals. He is correct....

He's also claiming both people are equally "wrong."
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Old 3rd January 2022, 08:42 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Person A murders 10 people in the street.
Person B jaywalks.

Warp12 is saying that both people are criminals. He is correct....
Close. He's saying "I'm saying something obviously stupid and wrong to an insane level and I'm going to make sure the discussion stays trapped at talking about THAT instead of the topic all under the guise of determining where the line is."

Being THAT wrong is an intentional flex, not simply being wrong.
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Old 3rd January 2022, 02:54 PM   #218
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The attorney general of New York state has subpoenaed Donald Trump Jr and Ivanka Trump as part of its fraud inquiry into Trump’s businesses, the New York Times reported on Monday, citing a court document.

The document was filed by lawyers for Trump in response to Letitia James’s decision to subpoena the former president himself.

Trump alleges that James’s investigation is politically motivated.

The Times said the subpoenas for Ivanka Trump and Donald Trump Jr “were served on 1 December, according to a person with knowledge of the matter”.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...torney-general
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Old 3rd January 2022, 03:05 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Trump alleges that James’s investigation is politically motivated.
That's okay because Trump's complaint about it is also politically motivated.
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Old 3rd January 2022, 03:55 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Knowing that, he took the opportunity to do the best thing he could...present an image of virtue for the party.
That sounds like a candidate responding to public pressure to take principled actions. If that starts happening a lot, I'm not going to complain much if they're doing it to get votes for their party instead of because they're virtuous in their sincere heart. That's kind of how democracy is supposed to work in a world of flawed individuals.
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Old 3rd January 2022, 08:15 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Person A murders 10 people in the street.
Person B jaywalks.

Warp12 is saying that both people are criminals. He is correct....

He's also claiming both people are equally "wrong."

Jaywalking is not a crime in many or even most jurisdictions as far as I can tell. It is a traffic infraction here in California.
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Old 3rd January 2022, 10:21 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Jaywalking is not a crime in many or even most jurisdictions as far as I can tell. It is a traffic infraction here in California.
Still works, really.

Criminal harassment is a thing, after all, though legal specifics can vary a bit from state to state. What Warp12 is trying to bring up to somehow say that people deserve it is neither a crime nor remotely sensible, except as an attempt at whataboutism and rationalization. It's more along the lines of "If you or anyone who can otherwise be reasonably categorized with you is perceived to have engaged in negative, heartless speech, no matter how justified or how it's done, everything is then on the table for those who take issue with such, no matter how unjustified, no matter how they choose to act, and no matter if the recipient of the revenge actually did anything or not." Childish and unreasonable, but understandable in light of human nature.

Utterly pointless other than as an attempt to shift responsibility away from those who deserve to be held responsible, of course, because even if "the left" were somehow actually composed entirely of pure saints, those with motive would still be happy to sling stones first, often, and claim justification even if "the left" ignored their attacks completely and embraced them anyways. "The left" would just be treated as simps and morons and walked all over. If it's a damned if you do and damned if you don't, I'm fine with being a flawed human that tries to make things better overall for all of us, rather than justifying, rationalizing, or embracing a road to anarchy and destruction.
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Old 4th January 2022, 02:17 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Person A murders 10 people in the street.
Person B jaywalks.

Warp12 is saying that both people are criminals. He is correct....

He's also claiming both people are equally "wrong."
Incorrect.

It is more along the lines of: "I hit you with a baseball bat. But, you stabbed me in return. See, you are in the wrong."

Personally, if someone says, "I hope your kids die in front of you", I don't see that as a big deal. As I have said, look around at the comments here in the politics section. That is a nothingburger.

And, I have already mentioned a recent instance of threats being levelled at a GOP supporter. So, as I say, it's all part of the game these days. The whole "Dems are victims" thing is not flying with me.
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Old 4th January 2022, 03:04 AM   #224
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To me it seems more like "You commit crimes, I condemn you for committing crimes, you condemn me for committing mostly imaginary crimes, I condemn you in stronger language ... "
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Old 4th January 2022, 06:14 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Incorrect.

It is more along the lines of: "I hit you with a baseball bat. But, you stabbed me in return. See, you are in the wrong."

Personally, if someone says, "I hope your kids die in front of you", I don't see that as a big deal. As I have said, look around at the comments here in the politics section. That is a nothingburger.

And, I have already mentioned a recent instance of threats being levelled at a GOP supporter. So, as I say, it's all part of the game these days. The whole "Dems are victims" thing is not flying with me.
But what are they doing? There's a qualitative difference between Americans and Trump supporters. One is attempting to prevent an authoritarian take over of the country and one is trying to steal the next election. The Trump supporters are a domestic enemy of the Constitution. If the result is Trump or one of the dogs vying to be first in line to hump his leg isn't the next president, well, omelets and eggs.
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Old 4th January 2022, 07:09 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Jaywalking is not a crime in many or even most jurisdictions as far as I can tell. It is a traffic infraction here in California.
We’re descending into pedantry here, but…

…here’s the wording of the penalty for jaywalking in Florida:

“ (19)A violation of this section is a noncriminal traffic infraction, punishable pursuant to chapter 318 as either a pedestrian violation or, if the infraction resulted from the operation of a vehicle, as a moving violation.”

So there’s a statute (law) against jaywalking. If you jaywalk, you have violated the law, but it’s not treated criminally. Is that pedantic (and confusing) enough?
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Old 4th January 2022, 01:21 PM   #227
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Oh no! What a tragedy this would be!

https://twitter.com/joncoopertweets/...30565405007873

Quote:
Donald Trump is calling for all of his followers to “drop off of Twitter and Facebook” because those social media platforms “are a disgrace to our Nation.”

Who else would NOT be sorry to see them go?
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Old 4th January 2022, 01:27 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
Oh no! What a tragedy this would be!

https://twitter.com/joncoopertweets/...30565405007873
It would be awful if his cult decided to follow this advice along with the "don't vote" advice he gave last year....
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Old 4th January 2022, 01:29 PM   #229
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Ah guys read between the lines.

They are going to leave Facebook and Twitter without trashing it on their way out.

There's a "and make sure nobody else can enjoy them before you leave" message in their that ain't too hard to see.

Again this do not end with them quietly going away and forming their own microcosm.
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Old 4th January 2022, 03:19 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
Oh no! What a tragedy this would be!

https://twitter.com/joncoopertweets/...30565405007873
He hopes they'll join his new social media platform instead. I get almost daily invitations to join it. Fat chance.
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Old 4th January 2022, 03:24 PM   #231
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Trump speech Jan 6! (in two days) He is going to win that 2020 election yet.

Republicans just can't get rid of him until well into 2025.
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Old 4th January 2022, 04:38 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
Oh no! What a tragedy this would be!

Donald Trump is calling for all of his followers to “drop off of Twitter and Facebook” because those social media platforms “are a disgrace to our Nation.”
I can't find a text copy and I don't want to post the jpeg, but this is one statement that was obviously thumbed by Trump himself. The petty spite, the single syllable words, the repetitiveness, etc.

Originally Posted by Tero View Post
Trump speech Jan 6! (in two days) He is going to win that 2020 election yet.

Republicans just can't get rid of him until well into 2025.
BREAKING NEWS!! (really) He cancelled it.
I for one was probably going to watch with a concerned terror.
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Old 4th January 2022, 08:00 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
Quote:
Trump speech Jan 6!
BREAKING NEWS!! (really) He cancelled it.
I for one was probably going to watch with a concerned terror.
I am kind of split on this...

On one hand, giving Stubby McBonespurs any sort of platform to spew his nonsense is a source for all sorts of disinformation.

On the other hand, having him engage in the sort of unhinged "election was stolen" rhetoric could be a problem for some republican politicians who are in more moderate areas. (Reminding voters about the unhinged nature of republican leadership, and their unwillingness to actually tackle the issues might cause problems for the republicans in the suburbs.)

(The fact that he actually canceled the speech suggests it might be the latter.)
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Old 5th January 2022, 05:39 AM   #234
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Ground hog day is Feb 2. We could have Trump yearly come out of Mar a Lago and give an "election was stolen" speech. If he sees his shadow, then we get six more weeks of rants. If not, then he is done for the year.
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Old 5th January 2022, 06:46 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
I can't find a text copy and I don't want to post the jpeg, but this is one statement that was obviously thumbed by Trump himself. The petty spite, the single syllable words, the repetitiveness, etc.



BREAKING NEWS!! (really) He cancelled it.
I for one was probably going to watch with a concerned terror.
Brian Stelter, CNN's media reporter said last night that the event was going to be poorly attended by press. Fox and a few of the other anti-American outlets were going to be there that was about it. He reported it in a four shot panel on Don Lemon but I haven't seen ink on this yet.
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Old 5th January 2022, 06:54 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Brian Stelter, CNN's media reporter said last night that the event was going to be poorly attended by press. Fox and a few of the other anti-American outlets were going to be there that was about it. He reported it in a four shot panel on Don Lemon but I haven't seen ink on this yet.
Trump's probably going to watch the rerun on TV tomorrow, saying "Look at all those people fighting for me!"
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Old 5th January 2022, 08:58 AM   #237
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The Trumps (you know, the people who are supposedly billionaires) are finding new ways to make money...

From: Politico
The former U.S. first lady announced...she will hold an auction called The Head of State Collection featuring three items: the “iconic broad-brimmed, one-of-a-kind hat” that she wore when Emmanuel and Brigitte Macron visited the White House...a watercolor of her wearing the same hat by French artist Marc-Antoine Coulon; and a digital version of that same artwork (in the form of a non-fungible token, or NFT).

Is it just me, or does it seem weird (and a little cheesy) that the former first family is going after such sales (which would seem rather "tiny" for people that are supposedly billionaires).
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Old 5th January 2022, 09:39 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
The Trumps (you know, the people who are supposedly billionaires) are finding new ways to make money...

From: Politico
The former U.S. first lady announced...she will hold an auction called The Head of State Collection featuring three items: the “iconic broad-brimmed, one-of-a-kind hat” that she wore when Emmanuel and Brigitte Macron visited the White House...a watercolor of her wearing the same hat by French artist Marc-Antoine Coulon; and a digital version of that same artwork (in the form of a non-fungible token, or NFT).

Is it just me, or does it seem weird (and a little cheesy) that the former first family is going after such sales (which would seem rather "tiny" for people that are supposedly billionaires).
is it just me, or would that not violate all kinds of laws about making money from things taxpayers paid for?
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Old 5th January 2022, 10:12 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by Tero View Post
Ground hog day is Feb 2. We could have Trump yearly come out of Mar a Lago and give an "election was stolen" speech. If he sees his shadow, then we get six more weeks of rants. If not, then he is done for the year.
A hog is roughly equivalent to a pig, so that works for me!
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Old 5th January 2022, 12:08 PM   #240
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
The Trumps (you know, the people who are supposedly billionaires) are finding new ways to make money...

From: Politico
The former U.S. first lady announced...she will hold an auction called The Head of State Collection featuring three items: the “iconic broad-brimmed, one-of-a-kind hat” that she wore when Emmanuel and Brigitte Macron visited the White House...a watercolor of her wearing the same hat by French artist Marc-Antoine Coulon; and a digital version of that same artwork (in the form of a non-fungible token, or NFT).

Is it just me, or does it seem weird (and a little cheesy) that the former first family is going after such sales (which would seem rather "tiny" for people that are supposedly billionaires).
Probably because Donnie Bonespurs isn't really a billionaire, and he's got her on a shoestring budget.
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