Merged: Russian (genocidal) internal propaganda and goals about Ukraine

[Jimbo07]

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

Yes, they could've attacked Taiwan many many times before, this is nothing new. What is new is China may look at the response by the West on Russia's little special military operation and make the totally rational decision that a war against Taiwan will cost them far more than it will gain them.

Yeah, and looking at the performance of Russian kit, and looking at the value of Russia having your back, etc.

[dudalb]

Originally Posted by The Don

Nope,. If they do then Russia will salami slice and ethnically cleanse their way across the country.

But you are a fan of it happening in the 30s and 40s so it's no surprise that you are a fan of it now.

Its' called "THe Sudatenland strategy".
Czechlsovakia ceded...due to pressure from Britian under Chamberlain and France the Sudentenland to Germany whereupon Hilter promised that he had made his last territorial demand in Europe, and six months later he took over what was left of Czechoslovakia.
And since when has Putin shown that he can be trusted about ANYTHING?

[dudalb]

Originally Posted by SpitfireIX

FTFY

Let's face it, the Soviet Union and the Russian Empire were pretty much the same thing under different lables with different rhetoric to justify it.

[dudalb]

Originally Posted by Foster Zygote

As soon as we run out of trees we're going to "liberate" our English speaking neighbors in Canada. But it's a secret, so don't mention anything to them.

"ANd here is footage of our boys keeping the peace in Newly Annexed Canada"

Rememver that bit from the prologue to the first Fallout Game.....

[dudalb]

Originally Posted by lomiller

Most Russian speaking Ukrainians want nothing to do with being part of Russia.

It's amazing how many Slavic countires hate and fear Russia, self procliamied Mother of all Slavic nations.

[Border Reiver]

Originally Posted by dudalb

"ANd here is footage of our boys keeping the peace in Newly Annexed Canada"

Rememver that bit from the prologue to the first Fallout Game.....

Activate Defence Scheme No. 1

[Michel H]

Originally Posted by lomiller

Most Russian speaking Ukrainians want nothing to do with being part of Russia.

Is this true?

Let's see:
Crimea population: 2,400,000
Donetsk People's Republic: 2,300,000 (in 2018)
Luhansk People's Republic: 1,400,000 (in 2017)
Total: about 6.1 million

On the other hand, it is estimated that about 30% of Ukraine's population are native Russian speakers: 0.3 x 44 million = 13.2 million.

So, it would seem that a little less than half of Russian speakers in Ukraine likes Russia. Most of the other half (in Kharkiv, for example) probably now hates Russia, because of the current "special military operation", which is particularly painful to them.

[Jack by the hedge]

You seem to be presuming that everyone still alive in the Donbas and Crimea loves Russia. That's ludicrous.

Also, consider that almost the entire population of Ireland speaks English. Does that mean they want England to reconquer their country? Almost the entire population of Scotland speaks English. If Scotland voted for independence from the UK (just as Ukraine voted overwhelmingly for independence in 1991) would England have the right to invade?

Of course not. It's ridiculous, and your constantly pretending that speaking Russian is an indication that a Ukrainian is pro-Russian is similarly specious, nonsensical and untrue.

[Michel H]

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge

You seem to be presuming that everyone still alive in the Donbas and Crimea loves Russia. That's ludicrous.

Also, consider that almost the entire population of Ireland speaks English. Does that mean they want England to reconquer their country? Almost the entire population of Scotland speaks English. If Scotland voted for independence from the UK (just as Ukraine voted overwhelmingly for independence in 1991) would England have the right to invade?

Of course not. It's ridiculous, and your constantly pretending that speaking Russian is an indication that a Ukrainian is pro-Russian is similarly specious, nonsensical and untrue.

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge

You seem to be presuming that everyone still alive in the Donbas and Crimea loves Russia. That's ludicrous.

There have been referendums, in Crimea and in the people's republics, which supported government policies.

See, for example: http://duma.gov.ru/en/news/54258/ (for a Russian viewpoint).
And:

Quote:

Ukraine rebels hold referendums in Donetsk and Luhansk
Published 11 May 2014
...
Ukraine's interim President Olexandr Turchynov has admitted many in the east supported pro-Russian militants, but warned the referendums were "a step towards the abyss".

(https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27360146)


I see no reason to believe that Russia is always "against the people" (in Ukraine).

Quote:

Of course not. It's ridiculous, and your constantly pretending that speaking Russian is an indication that a Ukrainian is pro-Russian is similarly specious, nonsensical and untrue.

This is actually not what I said:

Originally Posted by Michel H

So, it would seem that a little less than half of Russian speakers in Ukraine likes Russia. Most of the other half (in Kharkiv, for example) probably now hates Russia, because of the current "special military operation", which is particularly painful to them.

[eerok]

Originally Posted by Michel H

There have been referendums, in Crimea and in the people's republics, which supported government policies.

These were fraudulent, and their occupation of Crimea and Donbas is illegal.

Originally Posted by Michel H

I see no reason to believe that Russia is always "against the people" (in Ukraine)

Then you're not paying attention. They're actively trying to erase Ukraine as a nation and a culture, and Ukrainians as a people.

[Michel H]

Originally Posted by eerok

These were fraudulent, and their occupation of Crimea and Donbas is illegal.

No:

Quote:

According to a poll of the Crimeans by the Ukrainian branch of Germany's biggest market research organization, GfK, on January 16–22, 2015: "Eighty-two percent of those polled said they fully supported Crimea's inclusion in Russia, and another 11 percent expressed partial support. Only 4 percent spoke out against it.

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_C...ferendum_polls)

Watch the first two minutes of this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QOPpUQKDbQ.

Simplistic views about Russia and the government of Russia don't help Ukraine.

[eerok]

Originally Posted by Michel H

No:

The polls were different before Russia invaded Crimea and terrorized Ukrainians. In any case, Ukraine's internal matters are not the legitimate concern of Russia, whose aggression against a sovereign nation was illegal and remains so.

Originally Posted by Michel H

Simplistic views about Russia and the government of Russia don't help Ukraine.

Simple things can be true. Russia is the villain here, and you are willfully blind.

I see no evidence that you want to help Ukraine. If they bend the knee to Russia, they're finished as a nation, culture, and people.

[Captain_Swoop]

Originally Posted by Michel H

No:

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_C...ferendum_polls)

Watch the first two minutes of this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QOPpUQKDbQ.

Simplistic views about Russia and the government of Russia don't help Ukraine.

If you don't support Russia you go to jail and get 're-educated' or just disappear and turn up dead in a hole in the ground along with the other people that didn't support Russia.

It's an old system but it works.

[Jack by the hedge]

Originally Posted by Michel H

This is actually not what I said:

You said there were 6.1 million people in Donetsk, Luhansk and Crimea before the war, and that there were 13.2 million native Russian speakers in all of Ukraine.

Somehow these two statistics led you to infer "a little less than half of Russian speakers in Ukraine likes Russia". How did you reach that conclusion? What calculation did you perform?

[Michel H]

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge

You said there were 6.1 million people in Donetsk, Luhansk and Crimea before the war, and that there were 13.2 million native Russian speakers in all of Ukraine.

Somehow these two statistics led you to infer "a little less than half of Russian speakers in Ukraine likes Russia". How did you reach that conclusion? What calculation did you perform?

We know that referendums took place in Crimea, and in the two people's republics, and that the local pro-Russian governments won these referendums (with big majorities).

Of course, some people did vote for Kiev, but there are (or were) certainly some pro-Moscow people in Russian-speaking areas of Ukraine where no referendum happened as well (in Kharkiv, for example).

One might argue that the Zelensky government (and its predecessors) are committing a crime against humanity (through various economic sanctions and direct military action) by trying to impose their rule in some regions (Crimea, for example) where Kiev is deeply rejected.

Nobody (or almost nobody) in the West seems to care about that, yet democracy is important.

[The Don]

Originally Posted by Michel H

We know that referendums took place in Crimea, and in the two people's republics, and that the local pro-Russian governments won these referendums (with big majorities).

Were those referendums carried out in a free and fair way ?
No, there was mass voter intimidation

Did the results of those referendums reflect the actual votes cast ?
Who knows, there was no independent oversight, but Russia has plenty of prior form of this kind of thing

Was there a mass movement of people just prior to those referendums which would have skewed the results ?
Yes, there was ethnic cleansing on an industrial scale

Bearing that in mind, it's hardly surprising the results turned out the way they did.

Originally Posted by Michel H

Of course, some people did vote for Kiev, but there are (or were) certainly some pro-Moscow people in Russian-speaking areas of Ukraine where no referendum happened as well (in Kharkiv, for example).

And your point is ?

Originally Posted by Michel H

One might argue that the Zelensky government (and its predecessors) are committing a crime against humanity (through various economic sanctions and direct military action) by trying to impose their rule in some regions (Crimea, for example) where Kiev is deeply rejected.

You could argue such a thing but it would be a spurious argument aimed at justifying the illegal actions of the Moscow regime.

Originally Posted by Michel H

Nobody (or almost nobody) in the West seems to care about that, yet democracy is important.

Why care about something completely made up when the are real crimes against humanity committed by Russia to consider ?

[Jack by the hedge]

Originally Posted by Michel H

We know that referendums took place in Crimea, and in the two people's republics, and that the local pro-Russian governments won these referendums (with big majorities).

Of course, some people did vote for Kiev, but ...

Nobody voted for Russia. The referendums in Donetsk and Luhansk were for or against independence from Kiev. Not dependence on Russia.

And there was a counter-referendum held on the same day, in which a substantial part of Western Donetsk and many cities in Donetsk and Luhansk voted yes to: "Are you for maintaining your territorial community within Ukraine and reunification with the Dnipropetrovsk Oblast?".

Mariupol, for example, is one of the cities which voted "yes" to that. Now how about you tell me why you think the Russian invaders have some mandate to smash the hell out of that city and occupy its ruins.

After that perhaps we can deal with Ukraine's 1991 vote overwhelmingly to become an independent country, and Putin's unilateral rejection of that reality.

[Jack by the hedge]

One of the things which needs a bit of unpacking is Michel's description of "the local pro-Russian governments" in Donetsk and Luhansk.

Being opposed to the Maidan revolution and not accepting the legitimacy of the government which replaced the puppet regime in Kyiv is one thing, but it's not the same thing as wanting the Russians to invade, occupy and annex your homeland.

Wanting to remain allied with Russia is not the same thing as wanting not to be Ukrainian and wanting to be part of Russia.

[Wildy]

Originally Posted by Michel H

We know that referendums took place in Crimea, and in the two people's republics, and that the local pro-Russian governments won these referendums (with big majorities).

We also know that those referendums were illegal. Crimea and the Donbass puppet states don't have the right to unilaterally decide to secede from Ukraine and join Russia. Ukraine has the right to allow such a referendum if they wanted to, but they haven't. Likewise the proposed referendums in occupied Kherson and Zaporizhzhia Oblasts also wouldn't be considered legitimate because again, Russia doesn't have the right to allow such territorial changes from Ukraine in that way.

Maybe they could have used those illegal referendums to try and negotiate something, but instead we've ended up in the situation we're in now.

[sackett]

Calm down, fellers. Michel is using Mau Mau logic: "If one dog has spots, then all dogs have spots."

[dudalb]

Originally Posted by The Don

Were those referendums carried out in a free and fair way ?
No, there was mass voter intimidation

Did the results of those referendums reflect the actual votes cast ?
Who knows, there was no independent oversight, but Russia has plenty of prior form of this kind of thing

Was there a mass movement of people just prior to those referendums which would have skewed the results ?
Yes, there was ethnic cleansing on an industrial scale

Bearing that in mind, it's hardly surprising the results turned out the way they did.



And your point is ?



You could argue such a thing but it would be a spurious argument aimed at justifying the illegal actions of the Moscow regime.



Why care about something completely made up when the are real crimes against humanity committed by Russia to consider ?

Give up, we are dealing with a Putin fanboy here who is masqurading as being "objective" and failing badly.

[Craig4]

Originally Posted by Michel H

We know that referendums took place in Crimea, and in the two people's republics, and that the local pro-Russian governments won these referendums (with big majorities).

Of course, some people did vote for Kiev, but there are (or were) certainly some pro-Moscow people in Russian-speaking areas of Ukraine where no referendum happened as well (in Kharkiv, for example).

One might argue that the Zelensky government (and its predecessors) are committing a crime against humanity (through various economic sanctions and direct military action) by trying to impose their rule in some regions (Crimea, for example) where Kiev is deeply rejected.

Nobody (or almost nobody) in the West seems to care about that, yet democracy is important.

Where were the international observers? Is there anyone untainted by an association with Russia making this claim. Why assume this is one of the vanishingly rare times the Russians tell anyone the truth? What have Putin and his gangsters done to make you think you can take their word for the results? Russians simply can't be trusted.

[Michel H]

Originally Posted by Craig4

Where were the international observers? Is there anyone untainted by an association with Russia making this claim. Why assume this is one of the vanishingly rare times the Russians tell anyone the truth? What have Putin and his gangsters done to make you think you can take their word for the results? Russians simply can't be trusted.

As far as I know, there were international observers in Crimea, but not in Donbass (in the Donetsk and Luhansk people's republics):

Quote:

International Observers Find Crimean Referendum Strongly and Voluntarily Supported by the Crimean People
A group of international observers from Israel, Spain, Italy, USA, UK, Latvia, Moldova and Serbia, which were invited by the Central Electoral Commission of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea, visited the largest cities of Crimea - Simferopol, Yalta, Evpatoria, Alushta, Saki, as well as many villages in the countryside.

​All observers unanimously noted that the referendum was held in full compliance with international standards.

(https://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...250658201.html).

In Donbass,

Quote:

An opinion poll that was taken on the day of the referendum and the day before by a correspondent of the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, The Washington Post, and five other media outlets found that of those people who intended to vote, 94.8% would vote for independence. The poll did not claim to have scientific precision, but was carried out to get a basis from which to judge the outcome of the referendum, given that independent observers were not present to monitor it.

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_D...Public_opinion)

I don't think it is possible to find a solution to the current serious crisis in Ukraine by just ignoring what the local people say. This is the mistake that Kiev and its Western backers have been making since 2014, not hesitating to inflict absurd heavy sanctions on Russia.

Now, we see the consequences.

Note that I don't want to say that Russia is not committing crimes too, but these crimes occur in a certain context, which makes them more understandable.

[The Don]

Originally Posted by Michel H

As far as I know, there were international observers in Crimea, but not in Donbass (in the Donetsk and Luhansk people's republics):

(https://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...250658201.html)..

Read the report. These were not independent international observers, they were "useful idiots" invited by the Russians.

Originally Posted by Michel H

In Donbass,

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_D...Public_opinion)

I don't think it is possible to find a solution to the current serious crisis in Ukraine by just ignoring what the local people say. This is the mistake that Kiev and its Western backers have been making since 2014, not hesitating to inflict absurd heavy sanctions on Russia.

Who knows what the local people say when the referendums were not free and fair and where the population had been subject to ethnic cleansing.

Originally Posted by Michel H

Now, we see the consequences.

Note that I don't want to say that Russia is not committing crimes too, but these crimes occur in a certain context, which makes them more understandable.

Yes, and we also understand that you think the Nazis were provoked.

[Michel H]

Originally Posted by The Don

Read the report. These were not independent international observers, they were "useful idiots" invited by the Russians.



Who knows what the local people say when the referendums were not free and fair and where the population had been subject to ethnic cleansing.



Yes, and we also understand that you think the Nazis were provoked.

Yes, I guess one can say that. Declaring war on Germany in 1939 (like the UK and France did) was definitely some provocation of a very serious nature.

We also know what followed, for the Jews and many others.

[Jack by the hedge]

Originally Posted by Michel H

I don't think it is possible to find a solution to the current serious crisis in Ukraine by just ignoring what the local people say.

You posted Wikipedia links showing 3/4 of the local people opposed secession or joining Russia. But now Donbass is full of Russian invaders. That's nothing to do with what the local population want and everything to do with what Vladimir Putin wants.

You criticise Kyiv's mistakes but you find Russia's crimes understandable. It seems you hold Russia to a very different standard. Why do you do that?

[Jack by the hedge]

Originally Posted by Michel H

... Declaring war on Germany in 1939 (like the UK and France did) was definitely some provocation of a very serious nature.

That may be the single stupidest analysis of the outbreak of war that has ever been written. There the Nazis were, just peacefully murdering their way across Poland when suddenly out of nowhere...

[Michel H]

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge

You criticise Kyiv's mistakes but you find Russia's crimes understandable. It seems you hold Russia to a very different standard. Why do you do that?

I believe that, although Ukraine's crimes my seem less violent than those committed by Russia, they might actually be, in a sense, worse, because Ukraine started this crisis in 2014 by using military force against the two Donbass republics, by refusing to grant them self-governance (within Ukraine) as specified by the Minsk agreements, and imposing (with its Western allies) various (unjustified) economic sanctions on Crimea and Russia.

The West and Ukraine could probably spare themselves a lot of trouble by being less arrogant and by showing some respect for Russia, and its points of view and analyses (the same is true for their policies with respect to China by the way, something which is being much talked about these days after Pelosi's visit to Taiwan).

It is possible to achieve much more by showing some humility than by constantly throwing insults around.

[jimbob]

Originally Posted by Michel H

I believe that, although Ukraine's crimes my seem less violent than those committed by Russia, they might actually be, in a sense, worse, because Ukraine started this crisis in 2014 by using military force against the two Donbass republics, by refusing to grant them self-governance (within Ukraine) as specified by the Minsk agreements, and imposing (with its Western allies) various (unjustified) economic sanctions on Crimea and Russia.

The West and Ukraine could probably spare themselves a lot of trouble by being less arrogant and by showing some respect for Russia, and its points of view and analyses (the same is true for their policies with respect to China by the way, something which is being much talked about these days after Pelosi's visit to Taiwan).

It is possible to achieve much more by showing some humility than by constantly throwing insults around.

Well that's the second most stupid thing I have seen on this page

[eerok]

Originally Posted by Michel H

[blather elided]

As long as Russia works to bully, invade, murder, rape, and destroy the sovereign nations around it, the West will work to stop them. If you have a problem with that, it's your problem.

[Jack by the hedge]

Originally Posted by Michel H

I believe that [...] Ukraine started this crisis in 2014

I think you do believe that. Just as you believe that Britain and France started another crisis in 1939.

It's as if you give monstrous regimes a pass because <shrug> monsters gonna monster, having no agency to restrain themselves, and somehow it's entirely everyone else's responsibility to give the beast what it wants in the hope it doesn't kill us.

[Craig4]

Originally Posted by Michel H

No:

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_C...ferendum_polls)

Watch the first two minutes of this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QOPpUQKDbQ.

Simplistic views about Russia and the government of Russia don't help Ukraine.

No poll taken in Crimea could be valid with Russian occupying military and security services present. What faith could anyone have that the occupiers weren't able to see results or that the poll wasn't being done to identify loyal Ukrainians in the occupied territories?

[Michel H]

Originally Posted by Craig4

No poll taken in Crimea could be valid with Russian occupying military and security services present. What faith could anyone have that the occupiers weren't able to see results or that the poll wasn't being done to identify loyal Ukrainians in the occupied territories?

It seems to me there were some unidentified Russian soldiers without insignia in the voting rooms, I don't see how this should have been a major problem.

It is, of course, always possible to invent some extremely far-fetched excuses to reject some results you don't like, this should not convince reasonable people (there were international observers in Crimea).

I mentioned results obtained by a German polling organization, and an interview of two ladies by a well known British journalist (Steven Rosenberg) in Crimea. These two ladies had no reason to be scared.

Ukraine doesn't seem to be asking for a new referendum in Crimea. Why? Probably because they know very well they would lose it. Ukraine seems to have zero interest in democracy, and the West supports these people.

[Jack by the hedge]

Originally Posted by Michel H

It is, of course, always possible to invent some extremely far-fetched excuses to reject some results you don't like

Which reminds me, you haven't yet offered any opinion on whether we should regard the 2014 counter-referendum in Donbas as equally valid to the separatist ones you prefer to talk about.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_D...ter-referendum

[Michel H]

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge

Which reminds me, you haven't yet offered any opinion on whether we should regard the 2014 counter-referendum in Donbas as equally valid to the separatist ones you prefer to talk about.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_D...ter-referendum

It seems to me the term "counter-referendum" is slightly misleading, because (fortunately) the "Donetsk people's republic referendum" on the one hand, and the so-called "counter-referendum" seem to apply to different territories: the people's republic referendum took place (roughly) in the south-east of the Ukrainian Donetsk oblast, while the counter-referendum took place in the north-western part of the Ukrainian Donetsk oblast (according to Ukraine).

Having said this, I respect the results of the counter-referendum too, just the way I respect the results of the republic's referendum. I don't feel I know enough to be able to distinguish quality-wise. What this "counter-referendum" means, in my opinion, is that an effort by the Donetsk people's republic to extend the territory it controls nort-west has no democratic legitimacy.

When conflicts can be solved by using referendums, we are still in a rather favorable situation. Russia's February 24 invasion has opened a much worse era, where pro-Ukrainian citizens flee advancing Russian troops (and are invited to do so by their government). This sad situation is partly caused, in my opinion, by Ukraine's stubborn refusal to cede any territory in a rational way, and by its efforts to join NATO (https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/nati...ed-it/2813488/).

I believe responsible politicians should spend less time voting money for weapons and war, less time voting for sanctions against their (imagined or real) enemies which destroy their own countries economically, and more time redrawing and rationalizing borders, in a way which is conducive to peace.

[Craig4]

Originally Posted by Michel H

It seems to me there were some unidentified Russian soldiers without insignia in the voting rooms, I don't see how this should have been a major problem.

It is, of course, always possible to invent some extremely far-fetched excuses to reject some results you don't like, this should not convince reasonable people (there were international observers in Crimea).

I mentioned results obtained by a German polling organization, and an interview of two ladies by a well known British journalist (Steven Rosenberg) in Crimea. These two ladies had no reason to be scared.

Ukraine doesn't seem to be asking for a new referendum in Crimea. Why? Probably because they know very well they would lose it. Ukraine seems to have zero interest in democracy, and the West supports these people.

The ladies were in Russian occupied Ukrainian Crimea. They had every reason to be scared. We've seen what their kind do to their own people. Ukrainians living under enemy occupation are likely even more at risk. There were no observer missions in Crimea. OSCE did not have observers. The Carter Center wasn't there. There wasn't a UN mandate for an observer mission. There were a few paid lap dogs of the Russians who showed up and did as they were told. The "observers" were invited by Russians so they carry the same presumption of dishonesty as if they were officers of the Russian state.

[Michel H]

Originally Posted by Craig4

The ladies were in Russian occupied Ukrainian Crimea. They had every reason to be scared.

I really did not expect you would say this. These two ladies seem relaxed and sincere to me (and almost laughing), and it is part of an experienced journalist's job to try to convince people to say what they really believe, in conducting interviews. If necessary, interviews can be conducted anonymously.

You might think that, as a Belgian citizen, I should always say things supportive and flattering for my own government, for fear of terrible reprisals if I dared to criticize. But I don't. Sometimes (not always) I criticize because I feel that my own government is not doing the best thing for its own citizens, and I feel it is my duty (and perhaps also my interest) to voice my disapproval.

This is how democracy works (and Russia is a democracy too, even if it is far from perfect).

Quote:

Ukraine's interim President Olexandr Turchynov has admitted many in the east supported pro-Russian militants

(https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27360146)

[Craig4]

Originally Posted by Michel H

I really did not expect you would say this. These two ladies seem relaxed and sincere to me (and almost laughing), and it is part of an experienced journalist's job to try to convince people to say what they really believe, in conducting interviews. If necessary, interviews can be conducted anonymously.

You might think that, as a Belgian citizen, I should always say things supportive and flattering for my own government, for fear of terrible reprisals if I dared to criticize. But I don't. Sometimes (not always) I criticize because I feel that my own government is not doing the best thing for its own citizens, and I feel it is my duty (and perhaps also my interest) to voice my disapproval.

This is how democracy works (and Russia is a democracy too, even if it is far from perfect).


(https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27360146)

When was the last time a Belgian opposition party member had a by-product of nuclear weapons production shoved up his nose?

[Michel H]

Originally Posted by Craig4

When was the last time a Belgian opposition party member had a by-product of nuclear weapons production shoved up his nose?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poison...der_Litvinenko

Quote:

Later that night, Lumumba was driven to an isolated spot where, according to reports, three firing squads had been assembled and commanded by Belgian contract officer Julien Gat.[143]

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patric...an_involvement)

[Craig4]

Originally Posted by Michel H

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poison...der_Litvinenko


(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patric...an_involvement)

How many governments ago was that?