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Tags donald trump , Russia-Ukraine war , US-Russia relations , US-Ukraine relations

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Old 12th May 2022, 09:33 PM   #41
Nosi
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post

Now you can argue that you'd don't poke the bear, but then why is Biden willing to do so?
Despite being very close friends, Biden and Obama are very different men. Also, back when Obama was running this show, Putin hadn't shown himself to be a complete lunatic.
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Old 12th May 2022, 10:51 PM   #42
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Almost... Rand Paul did a half-turn to Ukraine:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...nd-paul-senate
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Old 13th May 2022, 12:14 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Here's a good backgrounder on US support for Ukraine over the last decade or so. Spoiler:

Obama was much worse on arms sales to Ukraine than Trump, even in the aftermath of the annexation of the Crimea.



Snip





Now you can argue that you'd don't poke the bear, but then why is Biden willing to do so?
I’ll give points to Trump for providing missiles to Ukraine. If I were American, I would probably take points off for him using the aid as a tool of extortion against a political rival, though.

My guess is that ultimately much of this policy is carried out by a core military and national security apparatus that has to be signed off on by the presidents so it probably is not so much a matter of credit or blame for the chief executive. That said, the buck stops with them so see my first paragraph.
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Old 13th May 2022, 12:21 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
Trump would pull out of Ukraine faster than he pulled out of Stormy Daniels.
Judging by the size of his fingers, he didn't have to pull out very far.
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Old 13th May 2022, 12:58 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Judging by the size of his fingers, he didn't have to pull out very far.
Now, now, they make penis pumps in extra small, too. Even ones shaped for toadstools.
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Old 13th May 2022, 06:33 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Here's a good backgrounder on US support for Ukraine over the last decade or so. Spoiler:

Obama was much worse on arms sales to Ukraine than Trump, even in the aftermath of the annexation of the Crimea.



Snip





Now you can argue that you'd don't poke the bear, but then why is Biden willing to do so?
Your attempt at a one-dimensional, single-variable interpretation fails.

In Obama's term Ukraine was in the process of coming to grips with the corruption in her politics. The uncertainty in supporting a questionable regime would naturally inspire a more tepid flow of aid. With the election of Zelensky, the mandate of a more democratic administration was established. And then of course the latest outrage by Russia moved the needle seismically.

Context has a way of putting issues into focus. Try to expand beyond the simplistic, disingenuous practice of ignoring it.
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Old 13th May 2022, 07:07 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Your attempt at a one-dimensional, single-variable interpretation fails.

In Obama's term Ukraine was in the process of coming to grips with the corruption in her politics. The uncertainty in supporting a questionable regime would naturally inspire a more tepid flow of aid. With the election of Zelensky, the mandate of a more democratic administration was established. And then of course the latest outrage by Russia moved the needle seismically.

Context has a way of putting issues into focus. Try to expand beyond the simplistic, disingenuous practice of ignoring it.
To add to this - Obama seemed concerned about escalation and weapons proliferation (in addition to corruption). Obama's administration also sometimes seemed to delay making decisions while they analyzed and reanalyzed certain issues.

But - at no point did Obama ever seem pro-Russian in anyway. He didn't praise the merits of totalitarianism.

Compare that to the Republican Party since Trump first got the nomination. Trump is still a major force in that party, and he's generally pretty pro-Russian in this current conflict. The Qanon and Conspiracy Theory people have a strong presence in that party and they now seem to be very strongly pro-Russian with all their idiot ideas about biolabs and George Soros and Hunter Biden/Burisma and everything else.

The Democratic party has little equivalent to that, other than the communist far left which has little power in the U.S.
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Old 13th May 2022, 07:42 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Nosi View Post
Trump will never turn on Putin, as Putin knows where the "bodies are buried" including the underage girls.
Also. What possible dirt could Putin have which if released would lower #45’s approval rating a single point?

Not sleeping with underaged girls.
Not giving classified material to Russia.
Not telling state secrets to hookers in a bugged hotel room.
Not written negotiations for Trump Tower Moscow.
Not tax returns showing how little he paid.
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Old 13th May 2022, 11:22 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Judging by the size of his fingers, he didn't have to pull out very far.
Pass the microscope so I can see!
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Old 13th May 2022, 01:53 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Quote:
Obama was much worse on arms sales to Ukraine than Trump, even in the aftermath of the annexation of the Crimea.
Your attempt at a one-dimensional, single-variable interpretation fails.

In Obama's term Ukraine was in the process of coming to grips with the corruption in her politics. The uncertainty in supporting a questionable regime would naturally inspire a more tepid flow of aid.
Plus, correct me if I am wrong...

But I don't think Trump personally had much to do with providing aid to the Ukraine. Funding was authorized by congress with the expectation that Trump would distribute the aid, until he decided to blackmail the Ukraine into helping him steal the election. It wasn't until after his scheme was found out that he decided to do what Congress had expected him to do in the first place.

You might complain "Obama didn't do enough", but what he did he did openly, without having to do it because he was caught in a scandal.
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Old 13th May 2022, 11:21 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Plus, correct me if I am wrong...

But I don't think Trump personally had much to do with providing aid to the Ukraine. Funding was authorized by congress with the expectation that Trump would distribute the aid, until he decided to blackmail the Ukraine into helping him steal the election. It wasn't until after his scheme was found out that he decided to do what Congress had expected him to do in the first place.

You might complain "Obama didn't do enough", but what he did he did openly, without having to do it because he was caught in a scandal.
Congress not only expected him to do it, but he was required by law to do it.

Quote:
That law, known as the Impoundment Control Act, says that once Congress appropriates funds — like the Ukraine assistance — and the president signs the relevant spending bill, the executive branch must spend those funds. A president cannot simply ignore Congress’s direction, no matter how inconvenient or unappealing that instruction might be. If funds are withheld or shifted elsewhere, this cannot be done in secret, and Congress must approve.
https://publicintegrity.org/national...-spending-law/
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Old 13th May 2022, 11:24 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Your attempt at a one-dimensional, single-variable interpretation fails.

In Obama's term Ukraine was in the process of coming to grips with the corruption in her politics. The uncertainty in supporting a questionable regime would naturally inspire a more tepid flow of aid. With the election of Zelensky, the mandate of a more democratic administration was established. And then of course the latest outrage by Russia moved the needle seismically.

Context has a way of putting issues into focus. Try to expand beyond the simplistic, disingenuous practice of ignoring it.
Well said. Trump rallies are full of people who have difficulty understanding anything more complex than a 3 to 5 word chant.
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Old 14th May 2022, 05:11 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Now, now, they make penis pumps in extra small, too. Even ones shaped for toadstools.
Perhaps his name shouldn't be "Donald"... I think "Justin" would be more appropriate.
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Old 14th May 2022, 05:14 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Your attempt at a one-dimensional, single-variable interpretation fails.
Not to mention that it demonstrates a singular paucity of understanding with regard to geo-political matters.
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Old 14th May 2022, 12:27 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Not to mention that it demonstrates a singular paucity of understanding with regard to geo-political matters.
Most MAGAites don't impress me as particularly deep thinkers.
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Old 14th May 2022, 12:56 PM   #56
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I guess it depends on which Republicans. The more old-school ones I would expect to support Ukraine and to be fair they have provided some evidence of that with a visit to Kyiv by a delegation of four Republican Senators including McConnell and Collins.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...e_iOSApp_Other

The Trumpy politicians of course I am less confident about. The same goes for the “libertarian” ones.
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Old 14th May 2022, 01:19 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I guess it depends on which Republicans. The more old-school ones I would expect to support Ukraine and to be fair they have provided some evidence of that with a visit to Kyiv by a delegation of four Republican Senators including McConnell and Collins.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...e_iOSApp_Other

The Trumpy politicians of course I am less confident about. The same goes for the “libertarian” ones.
Hmmm....it was previously alleged by an ISF member that Pelosi et al making a congressional visit to Ukraine was nothing more than a 'political stunt'. Seems McConnell et al are not above a 'political stunt' themselves.
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Old 14th May 2022, 03:23 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I guess it depends on which Republicans. The more old-school ones I would expect to support Ukraine and to be fair they have provided some evidence of that with a visit to Kyiv by a delegation of four Republican Senators including McConnell and Collins.
The same Republicans who found out Trump blocked aid to Ukraine in order to blackmail them, and said "yup that is totally fine".

Even if some old school Republicans would want to support Ukraine, they are having less and less influence in the party, and do not have the backbone needed to stand up fore any principles.

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Old 14th May 2022, 04:14 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Hmmm....it was previously alleged by an ISF member that Pelosi et al making a congressional visit to Ukraine was nothing more than a 'political stunt'. Seems McConnell et al are not above a 'political stunt' themselves.
A cunning stunt indeed!
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Old 14th May 2022, 04:19 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Hmmm....it was previously alleged by an ISF member that Pelosi et al making a congressional visit to Ukraine was nothing more than a 'political stunt'. Seems McConnell et al are not above a 'political stunt' themselves.
Yep. Maybe that person will be along any minute to vociferously denounce this trip. Or maybe not.
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Old 14th May 2022, 05:09 PM   #61
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I hope President Zelenskyy asked 'Moscow' Mitch the question from thread title, or if they would allow Ukraine to be extorted again for Republican political gain with no meaningful accountability.
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Old 14th May 2022, 05:22 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
A cunning stunt indeed!
Stunning word play.
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Old 14th May 2022, 05:26 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
I hope President Zelenskyy asked 'Moscow' Mitch the question from thread title, or if they would allow Ukraine to be extorted again for Republican political gain with no meaningful accountability.
That was just a special Trump brain fart. The GOP would be utterly stupid to let Putin get his way in Ukraine, and I'm sure the power players fully know that.

Even if the Q morons love Putin, I think few others in America do right now.
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Old 14th May 2022, 05:42 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
A cunning stunt indeed!
Face palm!
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Old 14th May 2022, 05:45 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
That was just a special Trump brain fart. The GOP would be utterly stupid to let Putin get his way in Ukraine, and I'm sure the power players fully know that.

Even if the Q morons love Putin, I think few others in America do right now.
It would be utterly stupid, most Americans would be massively opposed to it, and the power players do know that.

But I fail to see why you think that would be at all an impediment for the GOP to do it again. That all describes most of what they GOP is doing and has been doing for a long time now.
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Old 14th May 2022, 05:58 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
It would be utterly stupid, most Americans would be massively opposed to it, and the power players do know that.

But I fail to see why you think that would be at all an impediment for the GOP to do it again. That all describes most of what they GOP is doing and has been doing for a long time now.
I don't see what advantage the GOP could get out of supporting Putin's expansionist goals. Clearly they are an attack on the West, and they will continue if not abated. It's a no-brainer, non-partisan thing from the POV of America.

Just because the GOP loves to push counterfactual fantasies most of the time doesn't mean they can't fathom the consequences of bending over for Russia.
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Old 14th May 2022, 06:11 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
I don't see what advantage the GOP could get out of supporting Putin's expansionist goals. Clearly they are an attack on the West, and they will continue if not abated. It's a no-brainer, non-partisan thing from the POV of America.
It would piss off the liberals. It would piss off international allies making the kind of international cooperation the GOP has come to hate (because it shows governments and diplomacy are useful for something), making such actions as Biden is taking more difficult in the future. They could point to it as another 'dem failure' if they can make Ukraine suffer more.

Quote:
Just because the GOP loves to push counterfactual fantasies most of the time doesn't mean they can't fathom the consequences of bending over for Russia.
They push these counterfactual fantasies down to their voters, who then either increasingly believe them themselves or deny that the GOP ever would want to do such a thing while the GOP is doing that exact thing.

As a factual matter the number of GOP who voted against Ukraine aid increased from 3 to 57. It is entirely possible that the position supporting Putin becomes at least acceptable to mainstream GOP voters.

And all this is assuming that a future GOP government doesn't involve Trump, who will still get a pass for his crimes from the GOP. Again, the GOP has already found such things acceptable, so 'the voters wouldn't stand for it' as a line of reasoning is falsified. They did.
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Old 14th May 2022, 07:17 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
That was just a special Trump brain fart. The GOP would be utterly stupid to let Putin get his way in Ukraine, and I'm sure the power players fully know that.

Even if the Q morons love Putin, I think few others in America do right now.
It would be stupid to attempt to derail the election with a bunch of loonies storming the Capitol, to have the Texas grid sos susceptible to power outages in order to avoid regulation, to go to war with Disney over transgender stuff and to attempt to ban abortion nationwide, but here we are.

I think the GOP almost see it as a kind of My Fair Lady/ Trading Places game. Let’s see what insanity we can make our supporters vote for. We had Sarah Palin, now Donald Trump. Let’s see if we can get them to support Putin ROFLMAO!
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Old 15th May 2022, 08:28 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
I don't see what advantage the GOP could get out of supporting Putin's expansionist goals.
They get money.
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Old 15th May 2022, 09:13 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
Even if the Q morons love Putin, I think few others in America do right now.
I think you underestimate the influence Qanon has over the Republican party these days. The Republicans are more and more the conspiracy theory party, and that movement is 110% supportive of Russia in this.
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Old 15th May 2022, 09:57 AM   #71
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In the "Russia threatens Finland" thread, it was suggested that if Hungary and/or Turkey block their membership, unilateral self defense pacts would be likely. Do you think Republicans would approve of Biden making such an agreement with Finland?
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Old 16th May 2022, 01:48 AM   #72
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This should give us some idea….
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Old 16th May 2022, 02:10 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
This should give us some idea….
If that's not a fake, then that's truly terrifying and a clear indication that the GOP intends to leave Ukraine high and dry as soon as they can.

I wonder how our local "thinking Conservatives" will choose to rationalise this. Perhaps it'll be a case of "Ukraine is corrupt and is wasting the aid we have sent them", maybe it'll be "This is a great way to get Europe to do the heavy lifting" or they may even take the extreme position that Putin's demands are reasonable.
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Old 16th May 2022, 06:06 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
If that's not a fake, then that's truly terrifying and a clear indication that the GOP intends to leave Ukraine high and dry as soon as they can.
I thought for sure it was fake. Seems like it's just a bit too much. So I checked...

Yikes
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Old 16th May 2022, 07:58 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
If that's not a fake, then that's truly terrifying and a clear indication that the GOP intends to leave Ukraine high and dry as soon as they can.

I wonder how our local "thinking Conservatives" will choose to rationalise this. Perhaps it'll be a case of "Ukraine is corrupt and is wasting the aid we have sent them", maybe it'll be "This is a great way to get Europe to do the heavy lifting" or they may even take the extreme position that Putin's demands are reasonable.
Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
I thought for sure it was fake. Seems like it's just a bit too much. So I checked...

Yikes
Yeah. It’s genuine. Junior is clearly an entitled psycho. The only good news is that he is almost certainly not as popular as his dead. He comes across as really desperate for attention.

But look at his weird Twitter profile pic and some of his tweets on the front page. Clearly he is trying to get Ukraine’s aid cut and also seems to be against Finland joining NATO.
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Old 16th May 2022, 08:11 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
I thought for sure it was fake. Seems like it's just a bit too much. So I checked...

Yikes
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Yeah. It’s genuine. Junior is clearly an entitled psycho. The only good news is that he is almost certainly not as popular as his dead. He comes across as really desperate for attention.

But look at his weird Twitter profile pic and some of his tweets on the front page. Clearly he is trying to get Ukraine’s aid cut and also seems to be against Finland joining NATO.
Well it seems to me that if the GOP take the House and Senate in 2022 there'll be no more support for Ukraine from the US and if Donald Trump, or a Trumpist GOP candidate gets elected in 2024 then the US will start soft support for Putin and Russia.

"Saint" Ronnie is doubtless spinning in his grave but the ghouls that he introduced into the Republican Party will doubtless enjoy their "Power at any and all costs" consequences.
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Old 16th May 2022, 08:35 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Yeah. It’s genuine. Junior is clearly an entitled psycho. The only good news is that he is almost certainly not as popular as his dead.
Autocorrect by Freud?
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Old 16th May 2022, 08:44 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
Autocorrect by Freud?
I prefer to see it as a subtle prophecy from the gods.
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Old 16th May 2022, 11:54 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Yeah. It’s genuine. Junior is clearly an entitled psycho. The only good news is that he is almost certainly not as popular as his dead. He comes across as really desperate for attention.

But look at his weird Twitter profile pic and some of his tweets on the front page. Clearly he is trying to get Ukraine’s aid cut and also seems to be against Finland joining NATO.
I have openly said how badly I want Trump to suffer a debilitating stroke, but I'm afraid I'm going to have to upgrade that wish to the entire Trump dynasty perishing in a fiery plane crash.



Forgive my ignorance, but who is the NWO King? He looks like he's dressed up for an episode of STTNG...
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Last edited by Mike!; 16th May 2022 at 12:07 PM.
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Old 16th May 2022, 01:13 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
I have openly said how badly I want Trump to suffer a debilitating stroke, but I'm afraid I'm going to have to upgrade that wish to the entire Trump dynasty perishing in a fiery plane crash.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...0&d=1652690922

Forgive my ignorance, but who is the NWO King? He looks like he's dressed up for an episode of STTNG...
Klaus Schwab of the World Economic Forum. Some of the MAGA people have decided that he is the new Bill Gates/George Soros because of his book called the Great Reset which they take as some kind of blueprint to enslave the world under the New World Order. One of the main proponents of this idea is someone called James Lindsay who used to be considered some kind of liberal atheist who was mostly famous for writing hoax papers with Peter Boghossian to gender studies journals. He’s leaned hard into conspiracy theory territory over the last couple of years and the MAGAchuds seem to lap it right up.
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