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Tags putin , russia , Russia-Ukraine war , ukraine , Zelensky

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Old 30th May 2022, 09:18 AM   #361
Michel H
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Arm the Ukrainians to the teeth to allow them to crush the Russian army, take the fight to Russia, cripple the Russian economy so that they cannot prosecute this war, and won't be in a position to start the next one.
This might mean a nuclear war. Very dangerous, and doesn't stop this war killing dozens of people every day quickly.
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Old 30th May 2022, 09:26 AM   #362
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
The sanctions are only beginning to match the level of their aggression. They are criminals on the world stage, and they deserve to be held accountable.
This is what you say on this forum. But what do people say on Russian forums? (though I am not sure about freedom of speech in Russia, but people can comment on RT.com).

Perhaps they say that Ukrainian and Western persecutions must be stopped once for all, they they can no longer get away with this. And then maybe they talk about things like the bombing of Yugoslavia in 1999, the invasion of Iraq in 2003, censorships on Western forums ...
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Old 30th May 2022, 09:33 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
As far as I know, Ukraine and the West have shown very little interest for true democracy in Crimea and in the Donbass.
Your failure to know things is your problem. In 2014 Russia seized Ukrainian territory and declared it Russian. They installed puppet governments and "voted" for Russia. You think that's democratic, which is pathetic.

One of Russia's tactics is to ship Ukrainians to Russian gulags to be "reeducated" while they replace them with Russian immigrants -- that is, when they don't outright murder Ukrainian civilians en masse. They've been doing this throughout the current invasion.

I guess if this goes on long enough, the rest of Ukraine will "vote" to be Russian. "True democracy", what a laugh.
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Old 30th May 2022, 09:38 AM   #364
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
This is what you say on this forum. But what do people say on Russian forums? (though I am not sure about freedom of speech in Russia, but people can comment on RT.com).

Perhaps they say that Ukrainian and Western persecutions must be stopped once for all, they they can no longer get away with this. And then maybe they talk about things like the bombing of Yugoslavia in 1999, the invasion of Iraq in 2003, censorships on Western forums ...
They are saying that Putin is a hero and that Russia is saving Europe from nazis. In other words, they are saying what Putin lets them say.
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Old 30th May 2022, 10:55 AM   #365
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I meant to post about this last month, but I didn't get to it.

I Commanded U.S. Army Europe. Here’s What I Saw in the Russian and Ukrainian Armies.

This is an extremely deep dive into how the Russian and Ukrainian armies got to such completely different places when they started from exactly the same Red Army foundation. I highly recommend it for anyone who's interested in the subject.

tl;dr:

Ukraine committed to do everything that was necessary to create a competent, professional NCO corps, and followed through. Russia did not.
While Russia was not a contributing nation to [the Afghanistan International Security Assistance Force], we still offered the Russian Army opportunities to participate in many of our outreach programs. Our NCO Academy offered to allow the same number of Russian soldiers into each class as every other country. Russia accepted the invitation, but with conditions. They would send three of their “common soldiers” (their term), but they wanted a “senior officer” to also attend all classes and training events with them. They also wanted separate barracks for their soldiers instead of a “common barracks space with soldiers from other nations.” Finally, they would not adhere to the requirement only to send soldiers who could speak and read English (with so many languages represented, it was impossible to translate everything for everyone). While I was adamantly against acquiescing to these requests, my commander disagreed. The preparation for the Russian arrival was onerous, and their soldiers seemed much more interested in going to the post exchange—the subsidized on-base general store—than in learning leadership and tactical skills. We didn’t invite them back, and the Russian military never made any inquiries about returning.
Conversely,
After shaking my hand, [Colonel-General] Henadii [Vorobyov, Chief of the Ukrainian Ground Forces] started talking about the state of his army and his plans for the future while paratroopers dropped around us. He thought this exercise was the best he had seen in his first year as CGF, and he felt his army had made great strides in the last several years at building a professional force and developing a core of career sergeants. He thought our NCO Academy at Grafenwoehr had been instrumental in developing the young leaders he was seeing make a difference in Ukrainian units, and he immediately asked if there was a way to get more slots for his soldiers at the course. During a later visit to our headquarters in Germany, he asked for a one-on-one meeting with Command Sergeant Major Dave Davenport, the top NCO in Europe, about how the Ukrainians could plan to train and educate their senior sergeants.
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Old 30th May 2022, 10:57 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
Your failure to know things is your problem. In 2014 Russia seized Ukrainian territory and declared it Russian. They installed puppet governments and "voted" for Russia. You think that's democratic, which is pathetic.

One of Russia's tactics is to ship Ukrainians to Russian gulags to be "reeducated" while they replace them with Russian immigrants -- that is, when they don't outright murder Ukrainian civilians en masse. They've been doing this throughout the current invasion.

I guess if this goes on long enough, the rest of Ukraine will "vote" to be Russian. "True democracy", what a laugh.
As has been touched on before, it actually is entirely reasonable to believe that Crimea strongly favored joining Russia before Russia's invasion. Had Crimea's effort to join Russia been an internal democratic affair, that could have led to a peaceful transition recognized by the world. Russia's actual actions have completely removed any chance of that route actually being viable, rendering all talk of pro-Russia sentiment in Crimea moot, leaving only the route where Russia uses power to coerce the rest of the world to accept their control of the Crimea.
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Old 30th May 2022, 11:09 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
You think that's democratic, which is pathetic.
He does not think so. He's here to make the assertions without defending them in any more depth than is necessary to give them a veneer of plausibility. There's never any follow up on tough questions, just a repeat of the original assertions.
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Old 30th May 2022, 11:24 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
This might mean a nuclear war. Very dangerous, and doesn't stop this war killing dozens of people every day quickly.
And if Russia were allowed to keep their their gains over a million ethnic Ukrainians will likely be killed.
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Old 30th May 2022, 12:18 PM   #369
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
And if Russia were allowed to keep their their gains over a million ethnic Ukrainians will likely be killed.
Not to mention it would only encourage Putin to more agression later on.
Appeasement just does not work. The aggresor almost alwlays sees it as a sign of weakness.
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Old 30th May 2022, 12:19 PM   #370
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
This is what you say on this forum. But what do people say on Russian forums? (though I am not sure about freedom of speech in Russia, but people can comment on RT.com).

Perhaps they say that Ukrainian and Western persecutions must be stopped once for all, they they can no longer get away with this. And then maybe they talk about things like the bombing of Yugoslavia in 1999, the invasion of Iraq in 2003, censorships on Western forums ...
I give you delibate ignorance.
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Old 30th May 2022, 12:20 PM   #371
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
I wonder what more could the world do to help Ukraine? Long-range missiles would be useful. They could be used against installations inside Russia, taking the war to the invader. But what would be the effect of such an escalation?

Maybe it's time to take a risk. Appeasing a tyrant like Putin never ends well.
Total ecomomic isolation of Russia.
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Old 30th May 2022, 12:26 PM   #372
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
And if Russia were allowed to keep their their gains over a million ethnic Ukrainians will likely be killed.
This is a good reason not to concede anything.

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Not to mention it would only encourage Putin to more agression later on.
This is not. Putin will not live to see the creation of a Russian army that can attempt more aggression towards western Europe.
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Old 30th May 2022, 12:27 PM   #373
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
As has been touched on before, it actually is entirely reasonable to believe that Crimea strongly favored joining Russia before Russia's invasion. Had Crimea's effort to join Russia been an internal democratic affair, that could have led to a peaceful transition recognized by the world. Russia's actual actions have completely removed any chance of that route actually being viable, rendering all talk of pro-Russia sentiment in Crimea moot, leaving only the route where Russia uses power to coerce the rest of the world to accept their control of the Crimea.
Yes, there very possibly could've been an alternative path for Crimea if Russia hadn't stunk it up so badly, but as it stands, Crimea is not legitimately Russian. Russia has no voice in this -- it's an internal matter for Ukraine.

In any case, Russia didn't invade for the sake of Crimea -- they wanted all of Ukraine as a vassal state.
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Old 30th May 2022, 12:34 PM   #374
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
This is not. Putin will not live to see the creation of a Russian army that can attempt more aggression towards western Europe.
Putin has groomed two successors who are just as bad. This won't end when Putin is dead.
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Old 30th May 2022, 12:36 PM   #375
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
Putin has groomed two successors who are just as bad. This won't end when Putin is dead.
I predict that neither of his successors will last long enough to see this fabled future Russian army that can attempt more aggression towards the west.
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Old 30th May 2022, 01:02 PM   #376
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
This might mean a nuclear war. Very dangerous, and doesn't stop this war killing dozens of people every day quickly.
Your approach would all but guarantee Nuclear war.

Russia has shown a pattern, it keeps invading it's neighbors and committing genocide in the countries it invades. This has already been allowed to continue to long, and they no longer fear any consequences. The next targets will include NATO countries, and success in the Ukraine insures Russia will go ahead with invading them. This will result in a full scale war and almost certainly a Nuclear War when Russia looses the conventional war.

Also, your support for these repeated genocides committed by Russia is horrific.
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Old 30th May 2022, 01:16 PM   #377
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Your approach would all but guarantee Nuclear war.

Russia has shown a pattern, it keeps invading it's neighbors and committing genocide in the countries it invades. This has already been allowed to continue to long, and they no longer fear any consequences. The next targets will include NATO countries, and success in the Ukraine insures Russia will go ahead with invading them. This will result in a full scale war and almost certainly a Nuclear War when Russia looses the conventional war.

Also, your support for these repeated genocides committed by Russia is horrific.
The fact they spend time attacking non NATO countries means they will eventually attack a NATO country? Isn't that like saying a serial rapist of women will eventually rape a man?
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Old 30th May 2022, 01:32 PM   #378
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That's a ridiculous non sequitur. Putin wants the Baltic States back in the Russian empire. He would attack them if he thought he could get away with it. And appeasement over Ukraine would make that more likely.
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Old 30th May 2022, 01:42 PM   #379
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Your approach would all but guarantee Nuclear war.

Russia has shown a pattern, it keeps invading it's neighbors and committing genocide in the countries it invades. This has already been allowed to continue to long, and they no longer fear any consequences. The next targets will include NATO countries, and success in the Ukraine insures Russia will go ahead with invading them. This will result in a full scale war and almost certainly a Nuclear War when Russia looses the conventional war.
I don't think that Russia, which has already lost many soldiers in this war that they started, deserves "success in Ukraine". The peace plan I proposed was:
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
(1) Crimea belongs to Russsia (accepted by all).
(2) The two Donbass republics are independent (accepted by all).
(3) Russian troops withdraw from Ukraine, Ukraine remains independent and chooses its alliances the way it likes.
(4) No more sanctions and censorship (this also applies to the West).
Point (3) makes it clear that Russia should withdraw from Ukraine proper. Obviously, forcing Russian troops to withdraw is not an invitation to invade other countries, this is not the signal which is being sent.

Many Ukrainian citizens are currently suffering greatly under Russian assaults, and I believe my simple and obvious plan would help them greatly and quickly.

I invite you to read this:
Quote:
Biden says US won’t send Ukraine rocket systems that can reach Russia
...
Koffler said that another motivation for Biden could be concern about how the systems would be used by the Ukrainians.

"Perhaps he doesn't trust [Ukrainian President] Zelenskyy in using the systems judiciously because Zelenskyy has been very clear that he doesn't want to cede any land to Russia, he doesn't want to compromise at all, and he even wants to take Crimea back, which is pretty unlikely," she said.
(https://www.foxnews.com/politics/bid...s-reach-russia).

That's the problem: Zelensky doesn't want to compromise at all. He sees his country being destroyed more every day, but he doesn't seem to care because he wants to play his little Churchill.

What is important here is certainly not to make Putin (very) happy: it is to try to make sure that people in Crimea and Donbass have decent lives at peace, that they don't have the unpleasant impression of being ruled by foreigners that they don't like (these same principles do apply of course also to Ukrainians and Russians, with also an eye on other regions in the world which may need some help, such as Taiwan for example).
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Old 30th May 2022, 01:46 PM   #380
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Biden says the US will not send long range rocket systems to Ukraine. Assuming he actually meant to say that, I hope he meant that we're just not going to send the longest-range rocket ammunition, but still provide MLRS.
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Old 30th May 2022, 02:02 PM   #381
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Here is the exact quote, per CNN: '"I won't send anything that can fire into Russia,' Biden said at the White House on Monday when asked whether he was planning to send long-range rockets to Ukraine."

Frankly this doesn't make a lot of sense, because the US and Canada have already sent artillery and ammunition that can hit the Russian city of Belgorod from inside Ukraine. So I hope this is just another case of Biden's going off script.
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Old 30th May 2022, 02:21 PM   #382
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Russian President Vladimir Putin has said Russia is ready to facilitate the unhindered export of grain from Ukrainian ports in co-ordination with Turkey, Reuters reported.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/worl...ost_type=share
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Old 30th May 2022, 02:40 PM   #383
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Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
That's a ridiculous non sequitur. Putin wants the Baltic States back in the Russian empire. He would attack them if he thought he could get away with it. And appeasement over Ukraine would make that more likely.
Okay. Non interference is not appeasement
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Old 30th May 2022, 02:59 PM   #384
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The European Commission are to blame for a lack of progress on Russia oil sanctions Viktor Orban has told reporters. He also said he would only agree to the European Union's latest proposals for sanctions against Russia if solutions are found to guarantee his country's energy supply first.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-61629260
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Old 30th May 2022, 03:01 PM   #385
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Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
Here is the exact quote, per CNN: '"I won't send anything that can fire into Russia,' Biden said at the White House on Monday when asked whether he was planning to send long-range rockets to Ukraine."

Frankly this doesn't make a lot of sense, because the US and Canada have already sent artillery and ammunition that can hit the Russian city of Belgorod from inside Ukraine. So I hope this is just another case of Biden's going off script.
Send something with a 2000 mile range and its clear that the target is likely Russia. Something with a 100 mile range - plausible deniability
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Old 30th May 2022, 03:10 PM   #386
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Okay. Non interference is not appeasement
Oh.

Yes.

It.

Is.
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Old 30th May 2022, 03:14 PM   #387
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
Oh.

Yes.

It.

Is.
appeasing is to placate someone by giving into their demands. Ignoring their demands is not placating.
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Old 30th May 2022, 03:32 PM   #388
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Send something with a 2000 mile range and its clear that the target is likely Russia. Something with a 100 mile range - plausible deniability
LOL. Try 186 miles for the long range versions*. Compare with 20-40 miles for the "regular" version. Compare with 13 to 40 miles for typical 155mm howitzers.

Biden is being a scumbag here. The ability to out range enemy artillery is a huge factor in saving lives and equipment, and in winning battles. Withholding longer range artillery and forcing the Ukrainians to close with the Russians, just to avoid antagonizing Putin, is both evil and stupid.
---
*There's a missile variant with a 300 mile range.
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Old 30th May 2022, 04:48 PM   #389
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
LOL. Try 186 miles for the long range versions*. Compare with 20-40 miles for the "regular" version. Compare with 13 to 40 miles for typical 155mm howitzers.

Biden is being a scumbag here. The ability to out range enemy artillery is a huge factor in saving lives and equipment, and in winning battles. Withholding longer range artillery and forcing the Ukrainians to close with the Russians, just to avoid antagonizing Putin, is both evil and stupid.
---
*There's a missile variant with a 300 mile range.
I really hope it was a Biden gaffe, and he meant we won't send anything that can hit Moscow from Ukraine. Guess we'll see. I still don't know the end game for Ukraine... They take back all their territory and Russia can still hit many of their cities near the border, or they invade and... That really could escalate to thermonuclear warfare.
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Old 30th May 2022, 05:10 PM   #390
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Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
Here is the exact quote, per CNN: '"I won't send anything that can fire into Russia,' Biden said at the White House on Monday when asked whether he was planning to send long-range rockets to Ukraine."

Frankly this doesn't make a lot of sense, because the US and Canada have already sent artillery and ammunition that can hit the Russian city of Belgorod from inside Ukraine. So I hope this is just another case of Biden's going off script.
I think he's talking about the longest range rockets the MLRS can fire. Clearly, we've sent lots of ammunition that can fire a short distance into Russia.
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Old 30th May 2022, 05:17 PM   #391
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
I really hope it was a Biden gaffe, and he meant we won't send anything that can hit Moscow from Ukraine.
Why would this even come up? Nothing in the MLRS catalog can hit Moscow from Ukraine. Nobody is talking about hitting Moscow from Ukraine. Why on earth would Biden be answering questions nobody is asking?
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Old 30th May 2022, 06:30 PM   #392
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Why would this even come up? Nothing in the MLRS catalog can hit Moscow from Ukraine. Nobody is talking about hitting Moscow from Ukraine. Why on earth would Biden be answering questions nobody is asking?
Because he's a ******* moron. Remember "minor incursion"? Biden doesn't know what he's saying, he doesn't know what he's doing. He isn't actually even in charge.
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Old 30th May 2022, 08:05 PM   #393
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Why would this even come up? Nothing in the MLRS catalog can hit Moscow from Ukraine. Nobody is talking about hitting Moscow from Ukraine. Why on earth would Biden be answering questions nobody is asking?
You and I know exactly what he means. He doesn't want to support long range weapons that facilitate strikes deep into Russia.
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Old 30th May 2022, 10:57 PM   #394
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
You and I know exactly what he means. He doesn't want to support long range weapons that facilitate strikes deep into Russia.
Idiotic. Just let Ukraine rain fire on Russian military stuff deep in Russia.
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Old 30th May 2022, 11:36 PM   #395
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61638860

Quote:
European Union leaders have agreed on a plan to block more than two-thirds of Russian oil imports.

The ban will only affect oil that arrives by sea but not pipeline oil, following opposition from Hungary.

European Council chief Charles Michel said the deal cut off "a huge source of financing" for the Russian war machine.
Better than nothing.
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Old 30th May 2022, 11:42 PM   #396
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Pretty much my view
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Old 31st May 2022, 01:18 AM   #397
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Because he's a ******* moron. Remember "minor incursion"? Biden doesn't know what he's saying, he doesn't know what he's doing. He isn't actually even in charge.
Looks like you are suggesting some kind of conspiracy.
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Old 31st May 2022, 01:30 AM   #398
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Looks like you are suggesting some kind of conspiracy.
For those on the right, Biden is an incompetent rambling liability whereas President Trump was and is a genius playing elebenty million dimensional chess.
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Old 31st May 2022, 01:37 AM   #399
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Meanwhile, Russia is continuing to grind away on the Eastern front.

Quote:
"We need long-range artillery. The Russians are firing at us from a distance constantly. They have an enormous reserve of shells and they just fire at our positions for hours," Haidai said.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/worl...ost_type=share

Pound towns and cities to rubble and then advance into the wasteland. The reports from Ukrainian intelligence (and echoed by the UK and US) are that the Russians are sustaining heavy losses and suffering low morale. Both armies have been in the field for months now and it's understandable that they're getting worn pretty thin. Unfortunately, there's no indication that the Russians are going to crack any time soon. They're continuing to grind away in the East and they're holding their positions around Kharkiv and in the South.
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Old 31st May 2022, 01:56 AM   #400
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
appeasing is to placate someone by giving into their demands. Ignoring their demands is not placating.
The local bully took over your neighbours garage in 2014. Declared it was his now and defied anyone to do anything about it. Now he wants their spare bedroom too, and is throwing your neighbour's property into the yard.

There are no police in this scenario. The community should just let him do it, right? I mean he'll probably leave everyone else alone.
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