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Old 25th May 2022, 07:31 AM   #241
Stellafane
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
...Do gun deaths still happen here? Yes of course. But we donít have pathetic loners tooling up and killing many people any more.
Yeah, you seem to learn from your history. We, apparently, never will.
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Old 25th May 2022, 07:31 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by Stellafane View Post
What should be done: For starters, guns designed for the sole purpose of killing lots of people in a short amount of time should be illegal. The only practical application they have is mass murder, which (call me a wild man) I'd like to discourage. Second, some sort of background check system.

What I expect to be done: Not a whole lot. Too many people see any form of gun control, even the most trivial and symbolic, as the first domino in a liberal chain reaction where they end up slaves to gay atheist baby-killing communist immigrants.
Sadly, a very thoughtful but accurate post.

Sandy Hook didnít result in change and neither will this event. What needs to happen? A hundred kids killed?
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Old 25th May 2022, 07:35 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
If the majority want something done but sit there doing nothing but watch tumbleweed then they are part of the problem.
The problem is what those Americans would need to do to get guns under control. As shown in other countries, gun control is achieved when only those suitable to have a gun, have one and it is very difficult for those not suitable to get one.

1 - find out who has a gun. That on its own is an impossible task, because so many will not cooperate and the laws required would never pass due to constant legal challenges and opposition.

2 - find out of those who have a gun, what gun or guns they have. Like 1 above, impossible to do due to a lack of cooperation and legal challenges.

3 - once 1 & 2 have been completed, determine who is suitable to keep their guns and who has to hand them over. That is an even harder task than 1 & 2, due to lack of cooperation and legal challenges.

1, 2 & 3 also fly against US culture, whereby the gun has such a huge role in US history and society, that is not found to anything like the same extent, in any other western country.

Then the US arms industry is massive and it will not cooperate in much of it going out of business.

The majority you speak of, who do nothing, can do nothing. You may as well criticise someone who has lost both their legs for not growing back two new ones. The only way forward is for Americans to learn to cope with mass shootings and reduce their impact.
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Old 25th May 2022, 07:36 AM   #244
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  1. It's time for Biden to pack the Supreme Court. Without a liberal majority on the Supreme Court, nothing will ever get done.
  2. It's also time to make this a huge issue in the upcoming elections. Of course, the ******** will scream that you're politicizing dead children. So what? The alternative is to do nothing and let this keep happening. It's imperative to do well in the upcoming elections, and not just at the federal level, but at the state and local levels as well.

But I have little hope that either of these will happen. If Sandy Hook and Parkland didn't change things, nothing will.
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Old 25th May 2022, 07:40 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The problem is what those Americans would need to do to get guns under control. As shown in other countries, gun control is achieved when only those suitable to have a gun, have one and it is very difficult for those not suitable to get one.

1 - find out who has a gun. That on its own is an impossible task, because so many will not cooperate and the laws required would never pass due to constant legal challenges and opposition.

2 - find out of those who have a gun, what gun or guns they have. Like 1 above, impossible to do due to a lack of cooperation and legal challenges.

3 - once 1 & 2 have been completed, determine who is suitable to keep their guns and who has to hand them over. That is an even harder task than 1 & 2, due to lack of cooperation and legal challenges.

1, 2 & 3 also fly against US culture, whereby the gun has such a huge role in US history and society, that is not found to anything like the same extent, in any other western country.

Then the US arms industry is massive and it will not cooperate in much of it going out of business.

The majority you speak of, who do nothing, can do nothing. You may as well criticise someone who has lost both their legs for not growing back two new ones. The only way forward is for Americans to learn to cope with mass shootings and reduce their impact.
Oh, this is already the case, yet there is no sign of reducing impact. As I said earlier if an 18 year old can purchase semi automatics with no specific reason and no checks, there is no way forward.
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Old 25th May 2022, 07:40 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The problem is what those Americans would need to do to get guns under control. As shown in other countries, gun control is achieved when only those suitable to have a gun, have one and it is very difficult for those not suitable to get one.

1 - find out who has a gun. That on its own is an impossible task, because so many will not cooperate and the laws required would never pass due to constant legal challenges and opposition.

2 - find out of those who have a gun, what gun or guns they have. Like 1 above, impossible to do due to a lack of cooperation and legal challenges.

3 - once 1 & 2 have been completed, determine who is suitable to keep their guns and who has to hand them over. That is an even harder task than 1 & 2, due to lack of cooperation and legal challenges.

1, 2 & 3 also fly against US culture, whereby the gun has such a huge role in US history and society, that is not found to anything like the same extent, in any other western country.

Then the US arms industry is massive and it will not cooperate in much of it going out of business.

The majority you speak of, who do nothing, can do nothing. You may as well criticise someone who has lost both their legs for not growing back two new ones. The only way forward is for Americans to learn to cope with mass shootings and reduce their impact.

How did Australia do it?
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Old 25th May 2022, 07:44 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Yes I agree itís a huge effort, but in Australia we had massive semi automatic gun ownership in Australia, but after a number of well known massacres in Australia, culminating with Port Arthur, gun control happened. We havenít had any since then.

Do gun deaths still happen here? Yes of course. But we donít have pathetic loners tooling up and killing many people any more.
Not asked argumentatively, but asked because I think you might know the answer: did Australia have the levels of gun violence prior to the ban that the US currently has?
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Old 25th May 2022, 07:45 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Sadly, a very thoughtful but accurate post.

Sandy Hook didn’t result in change and neither will this event. What needs to happen? A hundred kids killed?
Nothing will happen, at least not for a generation or two or three.

The thing is that people on both sides of the divide do want change. They just support opposing paths of change. The right will propose:

1: Arming the teachers and other school staff.

2: Bullet/shooter resistant schools. No ground floor windows, no interior windows, no trees or other barriers outside the school that a shooter could use to conceal themselves and fire from cover, interior walls made from bullet resistant standards, auto-locking classroom doors triggered by central alarm system, all that. There are design proposals out there for that. Very expensive design proposals which are used mainly as a distraction because gun lovers tend to lean libertarian and are never going to want to actually pay for these designs they think we need.

3: More church, more God, more Jesus. No psychiatry - God is all we need.

4: Ban abortion - yes, they really will make that connection. They think allowing abortion signals that killing humans is okay and therefore encourages murder of adults. Yes, many conservative Christian movers and shakers really believe or claim to believe that.

5: Just more dumbazz conspiracy theories. That has the beauty of being very profitable. Alex Jones rode the blood of Sandy Hook to fame and fortune, and many other Conspiracy Theorists will do the same with this shooting.

See! They totally want things to change!

The left will propose a host of gun control laws. Background checks, red flag laws, waiting periods, time/purchase limitations (can only buy one gun a week, something like that), magazine capacity limits. This gets more complicated because they'll focus on magazine-fed semi-auto long guns, which are often used in mass shootings - but mass shootings, no matter how horrific, only make up a small fraction of overall gun deaths in America.
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Old 25th May 2022, 07:47 AM   #249
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What I find interesting is that a very conservative Australian Prime Minister John Howard, who I otherwise hated, brought gun control to Australia. He even wore bullet proof vests when standing up to gun owners at rallies.

So called progressive Biden will do nothing.
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Old 25th May 2022, 07:49 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
How did Australia do it?
They did it by having a sufficient population of citizens capable of reasoning and possessing empathy.
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Old 25th May 2022, 07:49 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
What I find interesting is that a very conservative Australian Prime Minister John Howard, who I otherwise hated, brought gun control to Australia. He even wore bullet proof vests when standing up to gun owners at rallies.

So called progressive Biden will do nothing.
So called by who?

Politicians like Biden, who are quite powerful within the party, run explicitly on being moderates who vigorously reject calls for bold action. They brag about how not progressive they are.

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 25th May 2022 at 07:51 AM.
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Old 25th May 2022, 07:50 AM   #252
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It's the human cost. I remember when news of Dunblane was still coming out, one of my main hopes was that no family had lost an only child, or at least if one had, that they would be able to have more children and become a family again. But of course the worst had happened. A widower whose wife had died of breast cancer a couple of years previously lost their only child, a five-year-old girl. He spoke movingly of exactly that, going from being a family, a father of a child, to the status of single man, cut off from the community of "families" that congregates round school and youth activities and so on. It was devastating to him.

It's inevitable that similar tragic stories are waiting to come out of this one too. They're all tragic stories of course, but some of them get to you more than others. I don't know if it was the shock value, because "these things don't happen here!", but the effect of what happened at Dunblane on people in general has been quite profound. Witness what I said about the emotional reaction of a group of us to the realisation that a particular artwork was actually a memorial to the victims of the massacre, Fifteen years after it happened.

Is America too big for people to empathise in the same way? Does empathy only extend to the local area? After being through Dunblane (as a mercifully uninvolved person) I feel the same way about any of these incidents. But did it take one which was local to me to sensitise me to the subject? I don't know.
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Last edited by Rolfe; 25th May 2022 at 07:53 AM.
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Old 25th May 2022, 07:56 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
...What needs to happen? A hundred kids killed?
A hundred Port Arthurs.
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Old 25th May 2022, 07:57 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Not asked argumentatively, but asked because I think you might know the answer: did Australia have the levels of gun violence prior to the ban that the US currently has?
By our standards yes. Hoddle St, Queen St, Strathfield and Port Arthur were terrible, with 35 dead at Port Arthur, including someone I knew.

Yes gun deaths still occur, but mainly, and still tragically, within families. But spree killings have disappeared.
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Old 25th May 2022, 07:58 AM   #255
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Those hot dogs won't grill themselves. Put those dead kids on ice and the Dems will get around to it eventually.

Quote:
NEW: Senate Judiciary Chairman Dick Durbin (D-IL) says gun control measures would likely not be taken up until after Senate Memorial Day recess
https://twitter.com/MacFarlaneNews/s...62846358269955
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Old 25th May 2022, 08:00 AM   #256
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Things in the US will not change while it is loners or others on the fringes of this group or that committing these mass shootings. When teachers, CEOs, doctors, professors, politicians, specialists of all fields start going around shooting people up and dead with the latest high-powered weapons, only then will an actual effort be made to put the brakes on mass shootings.
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Old 25th May 2022, 08:03 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
As someone commented on twitter,
Why is it you can't get a Kinder egg but you can buy a firearm in the US?

Another common observation is that only three children were killed by lawn darts before they were banned in the US.
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Old 25th May 2022, 08:08 AM   #258
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Nothing will happen. And in a sense, why now ?
Gun control is much more important for other reasons, than mass shooting. Sure it's scary. But those are very rare.
Cars kill 100 times more people. Suicides by guns kill 100 times more people. Murders by gun kill 50 times more people. Probably more toddlers kill themselves with guns than there is school shootings victims. And don't even compare it to Covid.
US clearly doesn't care, and current political system is impotent even if they did care.
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Old 25th May 2022, 08:09 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
By our standards yes. Hoddle St, Queen St, Strathfield and Port Arthur were terrible, with 35 dead at Port Arthur, including someone I knew.

Yes gun deaths still occur, but mainly, and still tragically, within families. But spree killings have disappeared.
I'm sorry to hear that one of those hit close to home.

Yeah, getting rid of the spree kill specialty weapons is my favorite option, along with no carry. Not just 'assault' style, but all mag fed semis. And I like guns, for sport purposes, but I'd like it more if it took a little longer to sport shoot at the expense of not having loser teens arm themselves like freaking soldiers and rack up a pile of bodies. With Australia as a real-time model, I don't see why the States can't collectively get behind something so conceptually simple.
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Old 25th May 2022, 08:18 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
How did Australia do it?
By already having a register of ownership and the backing of the vast majority of the population and legislators.
Same as in the UK after Hungerford for assault weapons and and Dunblane for handguns
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Old 25th May 2022, 08:20 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
NRA happens to be having a conference in Houston this weekend. Texas Gov. Abbott is scheduled to speak Friday.

Would be a damn shame if a rowdy mob happened to show up.
Or a lone gunman trying shooting up the hall.
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Old 25th May 2022, 08:23 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
Or a lone gunman trying shooting up the hall.
I have it on good authority that what is good for the goose is also good for the gander.
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Old 25th May 2022, 08:31 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I'd agree, except that at least for the interim, self-defense is a real thing because our genie is long out of the bottle. At some level, we have to be practical about the mess we already have in our laps, no matter how we got here.

I like my NJ USA laws, but would ramp them up even more. No carry, open or concealed. Firearm purchasing/ownership card required, revokable upon violent and/or criminal activity.

But we have a metric **** ton of weapons on the street, and a populace that has no hesitancy to use them. Gots to disarm the bad guys before paring down the good guys, and that is no trivial effort.
Universal background checks and proper record keeping would make it easier to track down those diverting guns from the legal trade to criminals. This would raise the risks of diversion, limiting the supply and raising the price of black market guns.
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Old 25th May 2022, 08:37 AM   #264
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There are a ton of things we could TRY, for zorg's sake.
If someone tells you that it's hopeless, they usually have a vested interest in not doing anything.
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Old 25th May 2022, 08:38 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
Universal background checks and proper record keeping would make it easier to track down those diverting guns from the legal trade to criminals. This would raise the risks of diversion, limiting the supply and raising the price of black market guns.
Agreed, a responsible move. Going further, clear out the prisons of guys caught with some pot, and make room for 10 year stretches for those caught with weapons used in a crime.
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Old 25th May 2022, 08:40 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
There are a ton of things we could TRY, for zorg's sake.
If someone tells you that it's hopeless, they usually have a vested interest in not doing anything.
Learned helplessness is the defining feature of the Democratic party.
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Old 25th May 2022, 08:42 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I have it on good authority that what is good for the goose is also good for the gander.

Guns have been banned from the event.

Quote:
One place you won't be able to find firearms in Texas after the Robb Elementary School massacre is, surprisingly, the National Rifle Association's upcoming forum in Houston on May 27.

According to a memo on the NRA's website, NRA members will not be able to bring their firearms to the Houston meeting.
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Old 25th May 2022, 08:44 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
The funny thing about guns is people generally let you do whatever you want when you're waving one around or shooting them.
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Old 25th May 2022, 08:45 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
That's normal for NRA events. They deliberately choose venues that don't allow guns. This is far from the first time this has been pointed out. The hold conferences in venues that don't allow guns (except for their own armed security).

Then blame someone else.
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Old 25th May 2022, 08:59 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
The truck wasn't just a little crashed ether, the pictures I've seen show the wheels themselves completely knocked off of it, not an easy feat even if that is your intent. It implied to me it was put in the ditch at very high speed. Was he already being pursued after attempting to kill grandma, or simply anticipating it so he fled that scene at high speed? There's no good answers to those questions and, honestly, I'm still, for lack of a better word,numb from this horrific event.
Just wild speculation (as if we don't get enough of that) -- I wonder if the elementary school was just a target of opportunity? Apparently the high school was nearby. But if he crashed the car and saw the other school was right there... Who knows why this nutjob did what he did.
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Old 25th May 2022, 09:06 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
How did Australia do it?
By not having a population in which every third person is a complete ******* whackjob.
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Old 25th May 2022, 09:10 AM   #272
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
By not having a population in which every third person is a complete ******* whackjob.

Even recognising that that's hyperbole, I can see the truth behind it. But how on earth did it get to that? What happened? Is it the frontier spirit that has never moved on?
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Old 25th May 2022, 09:15 AM   #273
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King Manchin has spoken

Quote:
Joe Manchin won't budge on the Senate filibuster after at least 19 children were killed in a Texas school shooting
https://www.businessinsider.com/manc...hooting-2022-5

So that's a wrap. See yall later to do the same dance after the next schoolhouse massacre.
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Old 25th May 2022, 09:16 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Even recognising that that's hyperbole, I can see the truth behind it. But how on earth did it get to that? What happened? Is it the frontier spirit that has never moved on?
I've seen surveys that suggest that about 40% of U.S. households own at least one gun. Allowing that some percentage of them are not kooks, I'm willing to say that the number of U.S. citizens who are kooks is at least 1 in 4. I refuse to go any lower.

As far as why, my take, in short, is that it's a combination of "frontier spirit," racism, old-time religion, and fear stoked by entities that have political and economic reasons. I'm sure other reasons could be added. A fuller discussion would require its own thread.
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Old 25th May 2022, 09:17 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Even recognising that that's hyperbole, I can see the truth behind it. But how on earth did it get to that? What happened? Is it the frontier spirit that has never moved on?
I ask myself a lot these days, because, hyperbolic or not, America really does seem to have lost its collective mind.

There is a large faction that is solidly supporting a would-be dictator in the hopes of securing their rights. I can't explain it. It's madness.

I think the core of it is related to our lack of non-partisan news sources.






On another note, as it turns out, I'm on my way to a gun shop now. Seriously. I have a couple of old rifles I inherited and I want to see if they are safe to fire, so I planned on going in today, before I saw yesterday's news.

I'll let everyone know if it's crowded, and pass on anything I hear that's extra stupid.
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Old 25th May 2022, 09:18 AM   #276
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
King Manchin has spoken



https://www.businessinsider.com/manc...hooting-2022-5

So that's a wrap. See yall later to do the same dance after the next schoolhouse massacre.
Which is why it's so important for the Democrats to gain several Senate seats so they can afford to tell this piece of **** to take a hike.
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Old 25th May 2022, 09:20 AM   #277
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
There are a ton of things we could TRY, for zorg's sake.
If someone tells you that it's hopeless, they usually have a vested interest in not doing anything.
And what exactly could you try? As long as there is no strong will to change things in the majority of the population, that's pointless.

People will pray, mourn, and tweet; that's it. They won't do anything, because the majority of them is not ready to sacrifice their private entertainment for the life of others.
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Old 25th May 2022, 09:21 AM   #278
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Even recognising that that's hyperbole,
The **** it is.
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Old 25th May 2022, 09:26 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Agreed, a responsible move. Going further, clear out the prisons of guys caught with some pot, and make room for 10 year stretches for those caught with weapons used in a crime.
If the costs of black market guns spirals up, you won't need to imprison them. Using guns for petty crimes will result in the remains of the perpetrator needing to be identified by various complex processes. The same for twitchy, angsty potential purchasers with chips on their shoulders.

Constraining supply has the added benefit of making criminal suppliers who don't want blowback into unwitting enforcers of policy.
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Old 25th May 2022, 09:31 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
Which is why it's so important for the Democrats to gain several Senate seats so they can afford to tell this piece of **** to take a hike.
This assumes that a majority held Dem Senate would even pass such laws and not be stymied by conservatives within their own party, which is a recurring problem.

Dems could absolutely make an issue of this. Try to pass a bill and do a roll call vote and get people (Republican and Democrats) on the record. Make a pledge to do something should they ever hit some majority threshold.

The party always makes vague statements about what could happen if only the people voted a bit harder, but the lack of specifics and accountability is pretty glaring.
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