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Old 1st June 2022, 08:05 AM   #41
xjx388
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
It has lots of meaning, for example lots of people deny the existence of Bisexuals and saying that someone identifies as bisexual should clearly be given over to testing as well.

They could just say: “I am bisexual.” In every factual case outside of gender issues, you could just say, “I am X.” The “identify as,” adds nothing but confusion.

For example: “I identify as Japanese.” What the hell does that mean? I would take that to mean that you are not actually Japanese but you really love the culture or something. If you are indeed a Japanese citizen or of Japanese descent, just say, “I am Japanese.”

“I identify as a skeptic.” That parses, because you have come to adopt the philosophy of skepticism or whatever. It’s not some inherent fact about you but something you have come to choose for whatever reason. Still, I think most of us would just say, “I am a skeptic.”
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Old 1st June 2022, 08:06 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Not in an objective fashion. It is based on how the person feels like being trans.
That's not true. Bisexual means that you aren't exclusively attracted to people of one particular sex. You can adjust the definition if you want (i.e. are you bisexual if you're attracted only to women and Davey Havok), but once you're done, you have something that is falsifiable, even though different people might not agree that this counts as bisexual. It's a ridiculous and stupid idea, but a sci-fi sexuality detector could determine the sexuality of people and map out where they are on the spectrum.

You can't do the same with the "man" and "woman" of gender science, because there is no falsifiable definition.
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Old 1st June 2022, 08:37 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
They could just say: “I am bisexual.” In every factual case outside of gender issues, you could just say, “I am X.” The “identify as,” adds nothing but confusion.
It is equally unnessacary in gender issues as a phrasing too. Hence why people actualy tend to say "I am a woman/man/agender". Really no one uses "identify as" because it is an awkward phrasing.
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Old 1st June 2022, 08:38 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
That's not true. Bisexual means that you aren't exclusively attracted to people of one particular sex. You can adjust the definition if you want (i.e. are you bisexual if you're attracted only to women and Davey Havok), but once you're done, you have something that is falsifiable, even though different people might not agree that this counts as bisexual. It's a ridiculous and stupid idea, but a sci-fi sexuality detector could determine the sexuality of people and map out where they are on the spectrum.

You can't do the same with the "man" and "woman" of gender science, because there is no falsifiable definition.
How on earth do you determine if someone is or is not attracted to someone other than by self reporting?
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Old 1st June 2022, 08:40 AM   #45
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My shorthand for "I identify as X" has always just been "I think of myself as X".
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Old 1st June 2022, 08:46 AM   #46
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I remember when I was considering leaving academia for a job in the private sector, one colleage remonstrated with me "but academics isn't just what we do, it's what we are!" I suppose that's a possible context.
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Old 1st June 2022, 08:50 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
How on earth do you determine if someone is or is not attracted to someone other than by self reporting?
That's not the point. It doesn't matter whether you can determine it or not, and it doesn't matter whether someone is lying or not. The point is that the concept means something. I'm a woman can also mean something if you provide a definition for "woman". It doesn't matter whether it is realistically possible to determine the truthfulness of the claim, but the definition itself still needs to make the statement falsifiable.
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Old 1st June 2022, 08:52 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
How on earth do you determine if someone is or is not attracted to someone other than by self reporting?
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Old 1st June 2022, 09:02 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
How on earth do you determine if someone is or is not attracted to someone other than by self reporting?
Probably the most important difference between sexual orientation and gender identity is that sexual orientation doesn't demand anything from anyone else.

All a self-declared bisexual asks of society is to be left alone to do whatever they actually end up feeling like doing, in the privacy of their bedroom, with consenting adults. So it really doesn't matter if you can or cannot determine the truth of their identity claim, or what it actually means.

On the other hand, gender self-ID amounts to a demand for uniquely gender-specific* treatment by others. So now it suddenly and imperatively matters if others can verify the truth of the claim. Or even just the meaning of the claim.

Again, context matters.

---
*Really, sex-specific.
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Old 1st June 2022, 09:14 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Probably the most important difference between sexual orientation and gender identity is that sexual orientation doesn't demand anything from anyone else.

All a self-declared bisexual asks of society is to be left alone to do whatever they actually end up feeling like doing, in the privacy of their bedroom, with consenting adults. So it really doesn't matter if you can or cannot determine the truth of their identity claim, or what it actually means.

On the other hand, gender self-ID amounts to a demand for uniquely gender-specific* treatment by others. So now it suddenly and imperatively matters if others can verify the truth of the claim. Or even just the meaning of the claim.

Again, context matters.

---
*Really, sex-specific.
This is just practical considerations.

Sexuality and gender identity are already fundamentally different in that an omniscient being could determine someone's sexuality but couldn't determine someone's gender identity, because no one has provided it with any parameters.
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Old 1st June 2022, 09:25 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
This is just practical considerations.
All I care about anymore are the practical considerations.

Robin's OP has absolutely no practical applications at all. It's perhaps of interest to lexicographer-historians, but that's about it. Robin's self-id as "agender" in the previous thread also has no practical applications.

But we know that some self-ids in some contexts are supposed to have serious practical considerations. Considerations about human rights. Considerations about public policy. Sweeping considerations that threaten to marginalize and disenfranchise a substantial percentage of the population.

What does "identifies as" require of others?

That depends on what exactly you're identifying as, and what you actually require of others as a result. Robin's OP doesn't even try to address that. Without a practical application, what even is the point?
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Old 1st June 2022, 09:30 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
All I care about anymore are the practical considerations.

Robin's OP has absolutely no practical applications at all. It's perhaps of interest to lexicographer-historians, but that's about it. Robin's self-id as "agender" in the previous thread also has no practical applications.

But we know that some self-ids in some contexts are supposed to have serious practical considerations. Considerations about human rights. Considerations about public policy. Sweeping considerations that threaten to marginalize and disenfranchise a substantial percentage of the population.

What does "identifies as" require of others?

That depends on what exactly you're identifying as, and what you actually require of others as a result. Robin's OP doesn't even try to address that. Without a practical application, what even is the point?
Intelectual curiosity? It's not like philosophy provides much of any use.

Besides, there already is a thread on the practical implications.
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Old 1st June 2022, 09:41 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
That's not the point. It doesn't matter whether you can determine it or not, and it doesn't matter whether someone is lying or not. The point is that the concept means something. I'm a woman can also mean something if you provide a definition for "woman". It doesn't matter whether it is realistically possible to determine the truthfulness of the claim, but the definition itself still needs to make the statement falsifiable.
You are now arguing there is no concept of being a woman meaning anything just because people can choose to define themselves as such, why do other things still have meaning when people can choose to define themselves as such but for some reason man and woman don't?
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Old 1st June 2022, 09:44 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
This is just practical considerations.

Sexuality and gender identity are already fundamentally different in that an omniscient being could determine someone's sexuality but couldn't determine someone's gender identity,
No if someone can determine sexuality they likely can determine gender identity. We have already found variances between cis and trans people why are you pretending that we haven't and that no such differences could exist unlike between gay and bisexual people which is easy to find differences an omniscient being could find but modern science can't.
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Old 1st June 2022, 09:47 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
Intelectual curiosity? It's not like philosophy provides much of any use.

Besides, there already is a thread on the practical implications.
There's already a thread where we're asking what exactly are the practical implications, and why, and are they justified. Robin has reduced those as-yet-largely-unanswered questions to a simplistic dictionary definition, devoid of context or usefulness.
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Old 1st June 2022, 09:59 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
You are now arguing there is no concept of being a woman meaning anything just because people can choose to define themselves as such, why do other things still have meaning when people can choose to define themselves as such but for some reason man and woman don't?
If someone defines themselves as a woman, that obviously means something to them. We can argue about whether their "something" is appropriate to the concept, but that "something" should exist.

I can say I'm a "Goth" because I really like The Cure, and someone else can tell me that The Cure are posers, so I'm not a "real" Goth, and a third person can comment on my distinctive lack of black lipstick. We each have different definitions of the word Goth, but we do have our definitions, and we can argue about them. That doesn't suddenly make someone's definition of Goth wrong, but people understand that it can mean different things to different people in different contexts.

We can't argue about "man" and "woman" because there are no definitions of those two terms in gender science.
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Old 1st June 2022, 10:03 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
No if someone can determine sexuality they likely can determine gender identity. We have already found variances between cis and trans people why are you pretending that we haven't and that no such differences could exist unlike between gay and bisexual people which is easy to find differences an omniscient being could find but modern science can't.
It doesn't matter that you have a whole spectrum of genders, because you don't have any parameters. The omniscient being will need to know what criteria to use.
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Old 1st June 2022, 10:13 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
It doesn't matter that you have a whole spectrum of genders, because you don't have any parameters. The omniscient being will need to know what criteria to use.
Nobody has any hard and fast parameters. Otherwise we wouldn't have to debate if or not Lance Armstrong is still a man or a eunuch.
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Old 1st June 2022, 10:24 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Nobody has any hard and fast parameters. Otherwise we wouldn't have to debate if or not Lance Armstrong is still a man or a eunuch.
It doesn't matter if the parameters you have are "hard and fast", they just need to exist. I can provide you with parameters that will make Lance Armstrong a man and parameters that will make Lance Armstrong a eunuch. I can also provide you with parameters that will make me a man and parameters that will make me a woman. Those parameters will always be the same, and you will be able to apply them to everyone. No one can provide parameters for the "man" and "woman" of gender science, because they will always do something you don't want and doesn't make sense.
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Old 1st June 2022, 10:25 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Nobody has any hard and fast parameters. Otherwise we wouldn't have to debate if or not Lance Armstrong is still a man or a eunuch.
We don't have to debate that, though.

The only time we have to debate identity is when there are practical consequences for us, from an identity claim.

Nobody cares if you think of yourself as a man or a woman.

Everyone cares if you saying you're a woman means they now have some obligation towards you, because you say you're a woman.
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Old 1st June 2022, 11:00 AM   #61
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And that's the whole problem with "identifies as." It doesn't really tell us anything useful. Something that the old chestnut, "I identify as an attack helicopter," really does illustrate well.

The connotation of the phrase is that something has qualities that you feel are reflected in yourself, but that you yourself are not. "I identify as a cat," means that you see cat-like qualities in yourself (you like to nap, get scratched on your belly, are temperamental, or whatever), but you know know you're not actually a cat.

Somehow, the usage has very quickly evolved (or been made to evolve by activists) to be equivalent to be saying, "I am a cat." This is the usage that makes me say that I don't understand what you mean.
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Old 1st June 2022, 11:06 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
And that's the whole problem with "identifies as." It doesn't really tell us anything useful. Something that the old chestnut, "I identify as an attack helicopter," really does illustrate well.

The connotation of the phrase is that something has qualities that you feel are reflected in yourself, but that you yourself are not. "I identify as a cat," means that you see cat-like qualities in yourself (you like to nap, get scratched on your belly, are temperamental, or whatever), but you know know you're not actually a cat.

Somehow, the usage has very quickly evolved (or been made to evolve by activists) to be equivalent to be saying, "I am a cat." This is the usage that makes me say that I don't understand what you mean.
I identify as the gender assigned at birth. Of course I can use identifies to refer to something I know I actually am.
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Old 1st June 2022, 11:07 AM   #63
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I would like to point out that Lance Armstrong is "still" a man, even if he has had a bilateral orchiectomy (which I do not have firm information about). If he has had a bilateral orchiectomy he is by definition a eunuch, but since a eunuch is a castrated man, the distinction doesn't exist.
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Old 1st June 2022, 11:15 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I would like to point out that Lance Armstrong is "still" a man, even if he has had a bilateral orchiectomy (which I do not have firm information about). If he has had a bilateral orchiectomy he is by definition a eunuch, but since a eunuch is a castrated man, the distinction doesn't exist.
Yes, but you could come up with definitions where that distinction did exist, i.e. someone's definition of man might not include castrated men (for whatever reason, this isn't a value judgement). Even though that definition would be misguided, it could be applied consistently.
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Old 1st June 2022, 11:19 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I would like to point out that Lance Armstrong is "still" a man, even if he has had a bilateral orchiectomy (which I do not have firm information about). If he has had a bilateral orchiectomy he is by definition a eunuch, but since a eunuch is a castrated man, the distinction doesn't exist.
Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
Yes, but you could come up with definitions where that distinction did exist, i.e. someone's definition of man might not include castrated men (for whatever reason, this isn't a value judgement). Even though that definition would be misguided, it could be applied consistently.
I would like to point out that it doesn't benefit this discussion even a little bit to play along with pt's stupid rhetorical games.
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Old 1st June 2022, 11:23 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I identify as the gender assigned at birth. Of course I can use identifies to refer to something I know I actually am.
There's another phrase that makes no sense in much the same way: "gender assigned at birth." Not going down that rabbit hole, though.
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Old 1st June 2022, 12:44 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
There's another phrase that makes no sense in much the same way: "gender assigned at birth." Not going down that rabbit hole, though.
That's a textbook use of playing fast and loose with the terms again. A newborn doesn't identify with anything. "Gender" is used interchangeably with "sex", maybe because it sounds a little icky to be saying newborn and sex so close together.
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Old 1st June 2022, 01:15 PM   #68
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It's just an older phrasing of "sex observed at birth", back before the Language Stasi started going Full Orwell on the subject.
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Old 1st June 2022, 01:26 PM   #69
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We need to distinguish between something being defined by self-identification, and identifying as something that has an independent, non-circular definition. This is often conflated, possibly deliberately in some cases by fans of identity cults.

'Introvert' as a personality type has a definition and description with associated behavioural and even physiological traits that can be observed and measured. If I say I am an introvert, and you have no way to verify this so have to take my word for it, that is not the same as defining introvert as 'an introvert is anyone who identifies as an introvert'. The latter is obviously circular and renders the concept meaningless. Somebody who is an extrovert based on observable and measurable factors can still claim to be an introvert and cannot be wrong.

To work out what somebody means when they say 'I identify as....' you first need to know how it relates to this distinction.

It is the unfalsifiable nature of identities that are defined by circular definition that gives them their quasi-religious property and leads to cult-like behaviour. This is a core concept in skepticism - unfalsifiable concepts are appealing because people want to believe in something that cannot be shown to be wrong, and where they can justify extreme hostility to anyone who questions the concept. It is therefore rather ironic that this has become so fashionable within large sectors of the 'skeptic' community.
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Old 1st June 2022, 01:34 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's just an older phrasing of "sex observed at birth", back before the Language Stasi started going Full Orwell on the subject.
And I identify as the sex I was assigned at the time.

See? you don't have to be trans to you the phrase "I identify as"
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Old 1st June 2022, 01:37 PM   #71
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Some people on this forum identify as trolls. Does that count?
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Old 1st June 2022, 01:49 PM   #72
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No because we identify them as trolls. They probably think of themselves as intelligent.

That's how useful self-identification is.

A lot of people who think they are (self identify as) "great guys/gals" are thought of as ******** by those who know them. Who is correct: the self identifier or everyone else?

[jerk-off motion]
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Old 1st June 2022, 02:09 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
No because we identify them as trolls. They probably think of themselves as intelligent.

That's how useful self-identification is.

A lot of people who think they are (self identify as) "great guys/gals" are thought of as ******** by those who know them. Who is correct: the self identifier or everyone else?

[jerk-off motion]
OK, but I was thinking more as identifying themselves by their actions and behaviour.
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Old 1st June 2022, 02:25 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
That's a textbook use of playing fast and loose with the terms again. A newborn doesn't identify with anything. "Gender" is used interchangeably with "sex", maybe because it sounds a little icky to be saying newborn and sex so close together.

As a vet, I find this concept of "icky" to be really weird. We ask what sex animals are all the time, and asking what gender an animal is tends to be met with some hilarity. This attitude extends to human beings, and I would ask what sex a baby is without a second thought. Asking what gender it is seems really strange.
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Old 1st June 2022, 02:45 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
As a vet, I find this concept of "icky" to be really weird. We ask what sex animals are all the time, and asking what gender an animal is tends to be met with some hilarity. This attitude extends to human beings, and I would ask what sex a baby is without a second thought. Asking what gender it is seems really strange.
Thinking on it, I've always asked if it was a boy or a girl. Gender does sound odd, but my highly Americanized ear results in an unhealthy perk-up at the mention of sex.
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Old 1st June 2022, 02:49 PM   #76
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Come to think of it, I'd probably ask if it was a boy or a girl too. But if I was asking about the results of an antenatal ultrasound I'd probably say, "do you know what sex it is?"
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Old 1st June 2022, 02:57 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Thinking on it, I've always asked if it was a boy or a girl. Gender does sound odd, but my highly Americanized ear results in an unhealthy perk-up at the mention of sex.
It's another word that came across with Norman French. We got a bunch of classy synonyms for Saxon words from them. Maybe that's why "sex" pricks up the ears where "gender" doesn't? I was talking to a Pakistani friend who explained that they throw English phrases in to their speech for the same purpose. I wonder if throwing another language in to add a bit of class isn't quite common?
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Old 1st June 2022, 04:40 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
It's another word that came across with Norman French. We got a bunch of classy synonyms for Saxon words from them. Maybe that's why "sex" pricks up the ears where "gender" doesn't? I was talking to a Pakistani friend who explained that they throw English phrases in to their speech for the same purpose. I wonder if throwing another language in to add a bit of class isn't quite common?
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I AGREE
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Old 1st June 2022, 06:00 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
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Absolutely. The anglo-saxon version is WAP.
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Old 2nd June 2022, 03:30 AM   #80
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Occasionally it is important.

Take this news article from the LA Times:


Sexual assault of 10-year-old sparks latest criticism of L.A. district attorney’s policies


Quote:
A 26-year-old woman who pleaded guilty to sexually assaulting a 10-year-old girl in Palmdale might be sentenced to a short stay in juvenile hall or granted probation at a court hearing this month, sparking another round of outrage over Los Angeles County Dist. Atty. George Gascón’s all-or-nothing criminal justice reform platform.

The complicated case of Hannah Tubbs has drawn increasing frustration from law enforcement officials and politicians in recent weeks, who say the situation once again highlights the problem with Gascón’s blanket ban on trying juveniles as adults.

Tubbs, who identifies as female, was two weeks shy of her 18th birthday when prosecutors say she walked into the women’s restroom of a Denny’s restaurant in 2014, grabbed a 10-year-old girl by the throat and locked her in a stall, court records show. Tubbs then shoved her hand down the girl’s pants and sexually assaulted her, prosecutors say, stopping only after someone else entered the restroom.
See what they did there?

How do you tell readers that someone is transgender, without saying they are transgender? Mention that they "identify as" a particular gender. That's something they wouldn't mention otherwise.
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