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Old 2nd June 2022, 05:22 AM   #81
Robin
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Often they will say something like "Back then I identified as a man, but I was really a woman" where "identifying as" and "being" are different, by then it is always possible that they were simply using "identify as" in a different sense, to mean "present myself as".
.
The other side of this is that of all the trans women I have known, I have never heard any of them even once say "I identify as a woman". I have heard once or twice "I am a woman"
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Old 2nd June 2022, 05:31 AM   #82
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Quote:
See what they did there?

How do you tell readers that someone is transgender, without saying they are transgender? Mention that they "identify as" a particular gender. That's something they wouldn't mention otherwise.

I see that thing that never happens and never could happen has happened again.
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Old 2nd June 2022, 05:41 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
The other side of this is that of all the trans women I have known, I have never heard any of them even once say "I identify as a woman". I have heard once or twice "I am a woman"
Although to out this in context trans women very rarely talk about or allude to gender politics at all.
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Old 2nd June 2022, 10:27 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
What does "identifies as" mean

First things first:

What does "what" mean? What does "does" mean? What does "" mean? What does the word "mean", mean? And finally, where's the "?"?
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Old 2nd June 2022, 10:31 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
First things first:

What does "what" mean? What does "does" mean? What does "" mean? What does the word "mean", mean? And finally, where's the "?"?
*President Clinton nods approvingly*
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Old 2nd June 2022, 01:21 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Probably the most important difference between sexual orientation and gender identity is that sexual orientation doesn't demand anything from anyone else.

All a self-declared bisexual asks of society is to be left alone to do whatever they actually end up feeling like doing, in the privacy of their bedroom, with consenting adults. So it really doesn't matter if you can or cannot determine the truth of their identity claim, or what it actually means.

On the other hand, gender self-ID amounts to a demand for uniquely gender-specific* treatment by others. So now it suddenly and imperatively matters if others can verify the truth of the claim. Or even just the meaning of the claim.

Again, context matters.

---
*Really, sex-specific.
I would describe it instead (where it has any consequence) as challenging whether an instance of sex-specific treatment is being mistakenly applied to a gender-based purpose.

An easy example of this is a store with a "boys" toy section and "girls" toy section. Since the child is not operating the toy with their genitals (or else they're quite drastically in the wrong store), the distinction represents gender. If a store insisted that only male children were allowed in the blue area and only female children were allowed in the pink area, I think people would be right to consider the store to be following a misguided policy, even if the presence of separately colored sections proved useful for marketing purposes.

(For clarity, I am using "male" and "female" to represent sex specifically)

So the way I see it when a trans person is asking for an accommodation, they're arguing implicitly that gender is more significant than sex in that context.

In some cases the argument may be stronger (I lean that way where it comes to bathrooms, for example) and in some cases sex-based distinctions are more defensible (such as in competitive sports).

Personally I think a lot of the around-and-around on this is because of trying to have a single answer for all situations.
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Old 2nd June 2022, 01:37 PM   #87
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You lean to giving (some) males the legal right to enter women's bathrooms.

Let me guess, you're male.

After much discussion I cannot think of a single instance where IN LAW "gender identification" should trump sex.
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Old 2nd June 2022, 01:50 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
I would describe it instead (where it has any consequence) as challenging whether an instance of sex-specific treatment is being mistakenly applied to a gender-based purpose.

An easy example of this is a store with a "boys" toy section and "girls" toy section. Since the child is not operating the toy with their genitals (or else they're quite drastically in the wrong store), the distinction represents gender. If a store insisted that only male children were allowed in the blue area and only female children were allowed in the pink area, I think people would be right to consider the store to be following a misguided policy, even if the presence of separately colored sections proved useful for marketing purposes.
None of this has anything to do with self-identifying as a particular gender.

Quote:
(For clarity, I am using "male" and "female" to represent sex specifically)

So the way I see it when a trans person is asking for an accommodation, they're arguing implicitly that gender is more significant than sex in that context.

In some cases the argument may be stronger (I lean that way where it comes to bathrooms, for example) and in some cases sex-based distinctions are more defensible (such as in competitive sports).

Personally I think a lot of the around-and-around on this is because of trying to have a single answer for all situations.
The point is still that unlike sexual orientation, gender identity demands something of others, while simultaneously denying others the right to challenge the definition and reject the demand.

Trans-inclusionists don't say, "identifying as a woman is a personal choice, and people should be free to describe themselves however they want." Rather, they say, "identifying as a woman is factually femalehood, and society is morally obligated to alter itself to conform to such self-identities."
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Old 2nd June 2022, 01:50 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
I would describe it instead (where it has any consequence) as challenging whether an instance of sex-specific treatment is being mistakenly applied to a gender-based purpose.

An easy example of this is a store with a "boys" toy section and "girls" toy section. Since the child is not operating the toy with their genitals (or else they're quite drastically in the wrong store), the distinction represents gender. If a store insisted that only male children were allowed in the blue area and only female children were allowed in the pink area, I think people would be right to consider the store to be following a misguided policy, even if the presence of separately colored sections proved useful for marketing purposes.

(For clarity, I am using "male" and "female" to represent sex specifically)

So the way I see it when a trans person is asking for an accommodation, they're arguing implicitly that gender is more significant than sex in that context.

In some cases the argument may be stronger (I lean that way where it comes to bathrooms, for example) and in some cases sex-based distinctions are more defensible (such as in competitive sports).

Personally I think a lot of the around-and-around on this is because of trying to have a single answer for all situations.
The solution to the toy problem is to paint the whole toy store green. And maybe get rid of the sexist toys.
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Old 2nd June 2022, 03:58 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Can someone be wrong about what they want to be called, if not then stating it has no meaning.

Lots of things are important parts of ones identity, and lots of them get fought over look at all the heat around "fake" gamer girls and so forth. Does identifying as a geek though saying "I am a geek" sufficient and meaningful or does there need to be some arbitrary test to determine if someone is or is not a geek?

Yes this is about gender, but it is also about anything that makes up someone's identity be it religion, various social labels and so forth.
I would say it's also about whether or not a person's conception of themselves places any obligation on other people.

Take the "fake gamer girl" example. Those people could very sincerely identify as "game girls". But other people don't necessarily see them as such. Should other people be required to accept them as "gamer girls"?

In many cases, it doesn't matter at all. In which case, pretty much nobody cares. In other contexts, it very well could matter. If the claim of an identity gains one access to spaces, venues, or services intended for a specific group... then whether or not one's expressed identity is accepted by other participants is fairly important.
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Old 2nd June 2022, 04:05 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
The solution to the toy problem is to paint the whole toy store green. And maybe get rid of the sexist toys.
Cool. Now do the sports problem, the women's shelter problem, and the gender representation in academia, politics, and commerce problem. Maybe you can solve all the "identifies as" problems in one day!
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Old 2nd June 2022, 04:11 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And I get it this thread is really objecting to the very idea that trans people exist.
This is false. People with gender dysphoria most certainly do exist. People who perceive of themselves as the opposite sex most certainly do exist.

That they exist has never been in question. The question is whether or not their perception of themselves obligates other people to accept their belief when it is in direct conflict with observations of reality.

That's where attack helicopters come into it. If someone identifies as an attack helicopter, nobody is deciding that the person doesn't exist. Nobody is even necessarily going to say that their identity is disingenuous. But... if a human being that has two legs and two arms and a head with some orifices in it identifies as an attack helicopter... everyone around them is quite well aware that they are not, in actual fact, an attack helicopter. All of us would agree that there is a disconnect between their identity and reality.

I know people who very sincerely believe themselves to be liberal. But they also view homosexuality as a sin, are opposed to sex before marriage, think that female spouses should stay home and raise the kids, and hold several other beliefs that are pretty orthogonal to what one would expect of a liberal.

Obviously, they as a person actually exist - I spoke to them just last week! And obviously THEY truly view themselves as liberal - they've told me so repeatedly, and I believe they believe it to be true.

But... I don't perceive them as liberal.

And that's at the crux of this discussion, and indeed it permeates a lot of political discussion these days across several topics.

How a person identifies themself doesn't alter how other people perceive them.
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Old 2nd June 2022, 04:22 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Thinking on it, I've always asked if it was a boy or a girl. Gender does sound odd, but my highly Americanized ear results in an unhealthy perk-up at the mention of sex.
That damned puritanical streak in our history has it's effects, doesn't it? As I've gotten older, I have gotten well past any squeamishness about the term "sex". But then again, I've moved toward either more formal terminologies for the act of practicing reproduction... or toward quite crass language about *******.
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Old 2nd June 2022, 05:47 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
Donald Trump identifies himself as a rational pleasant human being.
I sincerely doubt he's actually done this, since he seems to value cordiality and rationality somewhat less than ordinary folk.

He does, however, self identify as the chosen one on occasion.

(Skeptics are under no obligation to accept his proclamations, of course.)
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Old 2nd June 2022, 07:03 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
None of this has anything to do with self-identifying as a particular gender.
I'd say it does. If it's established that sometimes a gender distinction is divorced from a sex distinction, then it marks it as a subjective matter, and in that case there is no cause to challenge someone's self-identification.

Quote:
Trans-inclusionists don't say, "identifying as a woman is a personal choice, and people should be free to describe themselves however they want." Rather, they say, "identifying as a woman is factually femalehood, and society is morally obligated to alter itself to conform to such self-identities."
I don't think that this is an accurate description of the entirety of trans-inclusive advocacy. If someone is in fact arguing that it is factual and subjective simultaneously, I would disagree with that point of view.

Quote:
The point is still that unlike sexual orientation, gender identity demands something of others, while simultaneously denying others the right to challenge the definition and reject the demand.
I saved this for last because I have an instinct that gender identity is not the only matter in which this is effectively the case, but I don't have an articulation for it at this time. It means I've got some thinking to do, to decide if that gut reaction on my part is justified.
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Old 27th July 2022, 02:02 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
But as you can clearly see this whole thread is really just a forum for people to argue that trans people don't exist.
I really think this thread would be more productive (of useful insights) if the contributors avoided that specific topic.
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Old 27th July 2022, 02:49 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I really think this thread would be more productive (of useful insights) if the contributors avoided that specific topic.
I'm not aware of any social issues where "identifies as" has any utility, except that one topic.
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Old 27th July 2022, 02:57 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
I'd say it does. If it's established that sometimes a gender distinction is divorced from a sex distinction, then it marks it as a subjective matter,
Does it? Why couldn't they both be objective, but different?

Originally Posted by gnome View Post
and in that case there is no cause to challenge someone's self-identification.
Yes there is. Not being objective is not the same as being purely a matter of self identification. It might depend on how other people subjectively identify you.
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Old 27th July 2022, 03:36 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
I'd say it does. If it's established that sometimes a gender distinction is divorced from a sex distinction, then it marks it as a subjective matter, and in that case there is no cause to challenge someone's self-identification.
Of course there is. Gender identity is a social construct. It's just as much about how other people see you, as it is about how you see yourself. You're not entitled to tell me how I perceive you, and if you claim such an entitlement I'd be justified in challenging that claim.

But there is subtlety and nuance to this conundrum. It's not so much your self-identification that I would challenge. Rather, it's the imposition you would place on me, as a result of your subjective identification of yourself.

It also muddies the water a bit that, divorced from distinctions of sex, distinctions of gender have essentially no meaning, and no practical applications. Say you identify as this, that, or the other gender. What changes? Nothing. Look at gender identity accommodations in the workplace. You're not asking everyone to treat you differently because of your self-identification. You're asking everyone to treat you the same in spite of your self-identification.
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Old 27th July 2022, 03:46 PM   #100
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I've skipped a lot here, so pardon me if I'm going over stuff, but it seems to me that the question hinges to some extent on whether it's in the first person.

"I identify as X" would have a pretty clear implication (unless one is being purposely provocative or expressing solidarity with a group, or answering a specific question, such as polling a panel on preferred identities) that though a person is not physically or visibly an X, they're likely trans, since a biologically-born X who looks like something else would likely put it differently.

I think it's more ambiguous in the third person. "So and so identifies as an X," while it could mean So and so is trans, might mean just the opposite, if one is asking everyone for their preferred designation, or simply reporting on an event, or pointing out that, in a group where identity is not always obvious, and where it's gauche to say a person is or isn't a "real" X, So and so, visibly an X, sticks with it. It might just be a polite way of avoiding the whole issue, and additionally avoiding the possibility of error if one is not quite certain.

Conversely using a contrary pronoun, as in "he identifies as a woman," does just the opposite, making one's rejection explicit without actually alleging falsehood.

I think that issues of how to address trans people are pretty new and uncomfortable for many, and it might be a little soon to get too particular about what "identifies as" really means.
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Old 27th July 2022, 03:49 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm not aware of any social issues where "identifies as" has any utility, except that one topic.
Putting aside sex, sexuality, and gender, we still see "identifies as" used frequently in talk about race and ethnicity.

ETA: Also, possibly, there is class identity to consider.

ETA2: Presumably my dogs identify as veteran owned.
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Old 27th July 2022, 05:27 PM   #102
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I believe I have also heard it used politically, as in "So and so identifies as a Democrat." That could have some usefulness if one is, say, Joe Manchin, whose affiliation might not otherwise be obvious.

Just as a general thing "identifies as" can be a useful term if speaking of something about which one has choice, and when that choice is pertinent but not obvious.
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Old 27th July 2022, 05:49 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Putting aside sex, sexuality, and gender, we still see "identifies as" used frequently in talk about race and ethnicity.

ETA: Also, possibly, there is class identity to consider.

ETA2: Presumably my dogs identify as veteran owned.
Rachel Dolezal succeeded not because she identified as black, but because she passed as black.

The nouveau riche identify as upper class, but are disdained by Old Money.

Presumably your dogs are free from Original Sin, and live in a state of blissful ignorance.
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Old 27th July 2022, 07:17 PM   #104
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Problem is they leave off the first phrase. It should be "I have a mental illness, I self identify as_____".

Which is not to say they don't have a problem. But surgery isn't going to fix it. It didn't help Michael Jackson.

You would have no doubt about somebody who self identifies as Napoleon Bonaparte. Personally, Audrey Hepburn.
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Old 28th July 2022, 06:06 AM   #105
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Edited by sarge:  edited to remove AAH content


I am ever amazed at how intolerant so many "Liberals" are of other peoples' ideas.

My idea is only a half step forward from the fact that the only scientific physical difference that has been found for gayness is genetics. It's the same gene cluster as other extreme mental conditions. You know, things like OCD, creativity, chronic over achieving, addictions (including to sex),...

So how much should society be concerned with harmless peccadilloes? Sure, let them be themselves. But laws regarding pronouns? Men in women's prisons? or competing against women in sports? You are crazy too.
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Old 28th July 2022, 06:10 AM   #106
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The problem with self declaration of an identity is it isn't always obvious to anyone else.

Some guy identifies as a woman, Loopy Lou says he is the Messiah returned.
Most people they come in contact with will only accept on the surface to avoid a confrontational situation where logic does not apply.
Especially where laws are in place and being accused of hate crimes is serious.

They will still believe that something just ain't right with them. Nothing will be said.
There is a reason a lot of folks that make those claims are not in many social circles. They find others on a similar fringe in life as thier social circles.

It all depends on the individual and the place as to how much. A less assertive individual in a bigger city could easily blend in, many subcultures exist.

A radical trans activist in a small town with a deep religious base probably will have a very different experience.
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Old 28th July 2022, 06:23 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Rachel Dolezal succeeded not because she identified as black, but because she passed as black.
I'd say her success as an activist required a particular sense of personal identity which she cultivated over time. Had she not first identified with African American culture and experience (at Howard) she could not have come around to passing and eventually "identifying as" black.
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Old 28th July 2022, 06:37 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I'd say her success as an activist required a particular sense of personal identity which she cultivated over time. Had she not first identified with African American culture and experience (at Howard) she could not have come around to passing and eventually "identifying as" black.
She could just have a personality disorder.
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Old 28th July 2022, 06:55 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
I am ever amazed at how intolerant so many "Liberals" are of other peoples' ideas.

My idea is only a half step forward from the fact that the only scientific physical difference that has been found for gayness is genetics. It's the same gene cluster as other extreme mental conditions. You know, things like OCD, creativity, chronic over achieving, addictions (including to sex),...

So how much should society be concerned with harmless peccadilloes? Sure, let them be themselves. But laws regarding pronouns? Men in women's prisons? or competing against women in sports? You are crazy too.
I really would like to see your evidence of this breakthrough research!
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Old 28th July 2022, 07:14 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
She could just have a personality disorder.
Surely she could; loads of people do.

I'd say that her bizarre case is more easily explained in terms of incentives, much like the fake Native Americans who underwent a process of "self-indigenization" in order to gain credibility in their academic field.

https://www.voanews.com/a/native-fir...-/6511681.html
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Old 28th July 2022, 08:27 AM   #111
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Edited by sarge:  edited to remove AAH content


People with mental illnesses should of course be diagnosed and treated and supported by society as much as possible.

But as far as I know, the "identifies as" discussion is in no way a discussion of mental illness. It would be a very different discussion if it were!

Is that what you find intolerant? The insinuation that, say, a white woman who "identifies as" black has a mental illness? I could see that. As it stands, we don't consider Rachel Dolezal to be mentally ill. She's just stupid and wrong, and as a result, there's really nothing society is obligated to do for her. We don't have to take her claim of blackness seriously. We don't have to count her among the "black people" in any demographic analysis. We don't have to celebrate her as the "first black X" should she achieve anything that otherwise qualifies as a milestone.

We owe her perhaps as much common courtesy as we owe otherkin. We don't run around calling them mentally ill, but we also don't take their claims seriously or offer any accommodations in public policy for those claims.

Which brings us back to the elephant in the room: Either certain claimants are mentally ill, in which case they should be diagnosed, and treatment should be prescribed, and tolerance and accommodation should follow from those facts. Or those claimants are not mentally ill, in which case we need do nothing more for them than we do for otherkin or Rachel Dolezal.

So what's it going to be, Babbylonian? Are you going to eat your cake, or just sit there staring at it? Can't do both.
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Last edited by sarge; 28th July 2022 at 10:07 AM. Reason: fixed url tag, also a comma, also a word
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Old 28th July 2022, 08:40 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
People with mental illnesses should of course be diagnosed and treated and supported by society as much as possible.

But as far as I know, the "identifies as" discussion is in no way a discussion of mental illness. It would be a very different discussion if it were!

Is that what you find intolerant? The insinuation that, say a white woman who "identifies as" black has a mental illness? I could see that. As it stands, we don't consider Rachel Dolezal to be mentally ill. She's just stupid and wrong, and as a result, there's really nothing society is obligated to do for her. We don't have to take her claim of blackness seriously. We don't have to count her among the "black people" in any demographic analysis. We don't have to celebrate her as the "first black X" should she achieve anything that otherwise qualifies as a milestone.

We owe her perhaps as much common courtesy as we owe [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otherkin]. We don't run around calling them mentally ill, but we also don't take their claims seriously or offer any accommodations in public policy for those claims.

Which brings us back to the elephant in the room: Either certain claimants are mentally ill, in which case they should be diagnosed, and treatment should be prescribed, and tolerance and accommodation should follow from those facts. Or those claimants are not mentally ill, in which case we need do nothing more for them than we do for otherkin or Rachel Dolezal.

So what's it going to be, Babbylonian? Are you going to eat your cake, or just there staring at it? Can't do both.
Haha, he's got you there! Either they're mentally ill or we should ignore them! There's no other option!
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Old 28th July 2022, 09:11 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Haha, he's got you there! Either they're mentally ill or we should ignore them! There's no other option! : rolleyes :
I have yet to see a coherent, rational argument for making accommodations for them in public policy. If you have one, you know where to find the relevant thread.

ETA: As for otherkin, I suppose the answer cold be "both" - mentally ill and reasonably ignored.
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Old 28th July 2022, 09:16 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I have yet to see a coherent, rational argument for making accommodations for them in public policy. If you have one, you know where to find the relevant thread.

ETA: As for otherkin, I suppose the answer cold be "both" - mentally ill and reasonably ignored.
Oh, no, you're quite right, there is simply no argument for accomodating people whatsoever in public policy. Nope, mentally ill or they should be ignored, no other options!
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Old 28th July 2022, 09:20 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I have yet to see a coherent, rational argument for making accommodations for them in public policy.
Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Oh, no, you're quite right, there is simply no argument for accomodating people whatsoever in public policy. Nope, mentally ill or they should be ignored, no other options!
Q.E.D.
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Old 28th July 2022, 09:27 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Q.E.D.
If you're trying to demonstrate a "false dilemma" fallacy mixed with poisoning the well, then yep, that's which you have demonstrated.
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Old 28th July 2022, 09:35 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I think that issues of how to address trans people are pretty new and uncomfortable for many, and it might be a little soon to get too particular about what "identifies as" really means.
How we address people isn't all that difficult, and in many cases is pretty irrelevant. For many cases, being polite is perfectly fine. But in some cases, enforcing one person's demand for their preferred address over the observation and perception of another can lead to conflict. For example, in the case of a victim being required to refer to their rapist is if that rapist were female, despite the rapist being undeniably male.

Additionally, the largest questions are not around how a person wishes to be addressed, and if such address is reasonable or polite. It's about how that form of address is leveraged in order to demand accommodations that are well beyond courtesy. For example, demanding that because one gets referred to as "she", then a Muslim aesthetician who specializes in waxing female pubic regions must therefore handle the penis and testicles of someone who is incontrovertibly male.
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Old 28th July 2022, 09:36 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I believe I have also heard it used politically, as in "So and so identifies as a Democrat." That could have some usefulness if one is, say, Joe Manchin, whose affiliation might not otherwise be obvious.

Just as a general thing "identifies as" can be a useful term if speaking of something about which one has choice, and when that choice is pertinent but not obvious.
Sure. And if Joe Manchin says out loud that they identify as a democrat... will you accept their identification as real and valid, despite their current and past political affiliation and voting record?
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Old 28th July 2022, 09:36 AM   #119
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It is easy, catholics and mormons identify as christians despite it being factually incorrect.
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Old 28th July 2022, 09:37 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Rachel Dolezal succeeded not because she identified as black, but because she passed as black.
Furthermore, once the reality of Dolezal's ancestry was discovered, their identity was rejected by everyone else.
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