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Old 13th June 2022, 07:49 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post
Aww, funny.

Here's another funny claim: "Once we figured out how the speed of light works, there's no reason why we couldn't move faster than the speed of light! I mean it's nothing more than acceleration"

Right?

ETA: You would also need to back up the hilarious claim that "Our brains run some weird software".
Is your point that the brain is not a biological computer?

Or is it that it is simply incomprehensible by humans?

Or is it that the brain is majic?
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Old 13th June 2022, 07:53 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Is your point that the brain is not a biological computer?


Or is it that it is simply incomprehensible by humans?

Or is it that the brain is majic?
Even more funny. Well, how about you start backing up your claims?
Start by showing us that the brain works like a "logical" computer.
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Old 13th June 2022, 07:56 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Well, we've already figured out how to make computers play chess better than any human being can.
Oh great, so we agree that we can build computers which use statistics and regression to do specialized tasks better than humans.

Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
The speed of light is a hard limit, whereas human intelligence is clearly not.
LOL, evidence? Also: It's not about intelligence but about building a sentient brain from plastic and metal.
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Old 13th June 2022, 07:57 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post
Even more funny. Well, how about you start backing up your claims?
Start by showing us that the brain works like a "logical" computer.

I haven't made any claims. I was just trying to unpick your post to find out what it means.

From what you're saying, you believe that the brain doesn't work like a logical computer? Does that mean you believe it's impossible to be understood by human beings?

I'm just trying to get a handle on your position.
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Old 13th June 2022, 07:59 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I haven't made any claims. I was just trying to unpick your post to find out what it means.

From what you're saying, you believe that the brain doesn't work like a logical computer? Does that mean you believe it's impossible to be understood by human beings?

I'm just trying to get a handle on your position.
Weaseling...

ETA: Why should the brain work like a logical computer? Do you have evidence that the brain (internally) works on binary numbers?

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Old 13th June 2022, 08:10 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post
Aww, funny.

Here's another funny claim: "Once we figured out how the speed of light works, there's no reason why we couldn't move faster than the speed of light! I mean it's nothing more than acceleration"

Right?

...snip...
The two things are not analogous in any way. Or if they are you have not made the case for it.

We know how the brain at a very gross scale works, we can selectively interrupt and alter how the brain works in different ways, i.e. chemical, physical, even electronically. We are at the stage where we can actually computationally model assemblies and so on. It's amazing times.

But I think you are objecting to the idea that our current commercially focused "AI" research will ever produce sentience?
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Old 13th June 2022, 08:14 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post
Weaseling...

ETA: Why should the brain work like a logical computer? Do you have evidence that the brain (internally) works on binary numbers?
As 3point14 said he isn't making that claim so it isn't a claim for him to defend- all he is trying to do is to understand your comments.

At the moment I think you are saying 1) the brain doesn't work like our current computers 2) current AI is not going to produce a sentient thing.

Is that correct?
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Old 13th June 2022, 08:16 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
As 3point14 said he isn't making that claim so it isn't a claim for him to defend- all he is trying to do is to understand your comments.

At the moment I think you are saying 1) the brain doesn't work like our current computers 2) current AI is not going to produce a sentient thing.

Is that correct?
Yes. And as I already stated: Is there any evidence that the brain actually works like a computer (a thing made entirely by humans)?
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Old 13th June 2022, 08:18 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post

We know how the brain at a very gross scale works, we can selectively interrupt and alter how the brain works in different ways, i.e. chemical, physical, even electronically. We are at the stage where we can actually computationally model assemblies and so on. It's amazing times.
None of this implies that we will ever be able to build a machine that works like a brain. We can accelerate small things that have mass to incredible speeds. Does that mean that at some point we can accelerate a human being (close) to the speed of light?
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Old 13th June 2022, 08:18 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post
Weaseling...
You may be confusing me with someone else. Can you quote where you think I've made a claim and I'll try to explain?

Quote:
ETA: Why should the brain work like a logical computer? Do you have evidence that the brain (internally) works on binary numbers?

You believe, therefore that it is impossible to understand how the brain works in order to be able to reproduce it? I'm seriously just trying to understand your position, I am neither pro or anti it as I don't know what it is.

Could you just tell me why you believe it's impossible to replicate the workings of the human brain?
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Old 13th June 2022, 08:21 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post

Could you just tell me why you believe it's impossible to replicate the workings of the human brain?
A computer does math, it works down a list of commands. There is no "Now be sentient and realize that you are a machine, little machine"-command.
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Old 13th June 2022, 08:22 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post
A computer works down a list of commands. There is no "Now be sentient and realize that you are a machine, little machine"-command.
I still don't understand your position. Is it that you believe it is impossible for human beings to understand the brain sufficiently to replicate its functioning? Or that it is physically impossible to replicate, regardless of understanding? Or something else, possibly involving the word 'soul'?

Or is it some other point.

If you could just make a plain statement of your position, that would be really helpful. I might even agree with it. I can't agree with it right now as you've not actually said what it is.
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Old 13th June 2022, 08:23 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I still don't understand your position. Is it that you believe it is impossible for human beings to understand the brain sufficiently to replicate its functioning?

Or is it some other point.

If you could just make a plain statement of your position, that would be really helpful. I might even agree with it. I can't agree with it right now as you've not actually said what it is.
Sigh....

A computer works down a list of commands. There is no "Now be sentient and realize that you are a machine, little machine"-command.
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Old 13th June 2022, 08:24 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
As 3point14 said he isn't making that claim so it isn't a claim for him to defend- all he is trying to do is to understand your comments.

At the moment I think you are saying 1) the brain doesn't work like our current computers 2) current AI is not going to produce a sentient thing.

Is that correct?
I suspect we both may be on what my grandmother would have referred to as a 'hiding to nothing'.
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Old 13th June 2022, 08:25 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post
Sigh....

A computer works down a list of commands. There is no "Now be sentient and realize that you are a machine, little machine"-command.
You know that's a nonsensical statement within the confines of the discussion, don't you?
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Old 13th June 2022, 08:28 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
You know that's a nonsensical statement within the confines of the discussion, don't you?
What's nonsensical about "A computer only does exactly what you tell it to do"?

Please show us the necessary steps from "Machine that does only math" to "A machine that realizes that it's a machine"
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Old 13th June 2022, 08:28 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
Some of seem to be placing too much emphasis on software doing things it wasn’t programmed to do. But this happens all the time with modern software. The developers are often surprised by what the software does.
Not really the same thing. Natural selection of specific beak variations in Galapagos finches is not the same thing as radical speciation over millions of years.
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Old 13th June 2022, 08:35 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post
Yes. And as I already stated: Is there any evidence that the brain actually works like a computer (a thing made entirely by humans)?
No there is no evidence that the brain works like our current computers - except at a very gross level i.e. brains like our computers compute.
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Old 13th June 2022, 08:37 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post
What's nonsensical about "A computer only does exactly what you tell it to do"?

Please show us the necessary steps from "Machine that does only math" to "A machine that realizes that it's a machine"
No, because I haven't stated that position.

I have invested far too much time already trying to get you to state your position. A position, I might add, in which you clearly lack confidence, as you would otherwise have stated it clearly.

I'm out. (Good luck everyone else!)
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Old 13th June 2022, 08:42 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
No there is no evidence that the brain works like our current computers - except at a very gross level i.e. brains like our computers compute.
So why use a computer to build something that works like a human brain?

Again: A computer is build by humans with the intention to make very fast calculations. By now, we are able to "put" statistics and regression "into" a computer. It.only.does.math....very.very.fast. End of the story. The rest is "Wow, this computer seems to be close to being sentient but I don't know what I'm talking about"

How are we going to put "I realize that I am just a machine made out of metal and plastic" or "I don't feel like working today because my favourite programmer died yesterday" into a computer?

Last edited by EaglePuncher; 13th June 2022 at 08:46 AM. Reason: added a word
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Old 13th June 2022, 08:43 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
No, because I haven't stated that position.

I have invested far too much time already trying to get you to state your position. A position, I might add, in which you clearly lack confidence, as you would otherwise have stated it clearly.

I'm out. (Good luck everyone else!)
Maybe actually read my last 5 posts .
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Old 13th June 2022, 08:47 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post
What's nonsensical about "A computer only does exactly what you tell it to do"?

Please show us the necessary steps from "Machine that does only math" to "A machine that realizes that it's a machine"
We don't need to turn today's computers sentient. We need to create a new type of machine that is sentient. I don't see why that sounds so incredible. A brain is a material thing. At worst it's too complex to be figured out and recreated, but I doubt it.
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Old 13th June 2022, 08:47 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post
So why use a computer to build something that works a human brain?

Again: A computer is build by humans with the intention to make very fast calculations. By now, we are able to "put" statistics and regression "into" a computer. It.only.does.math....very.very.fast. End of the story. The rest is "Wow, this computer seems to be close to being sentient but I don't know what I'm talking about"

How are we going to put "I realize that I am just a machine made out of metal and plastic" or "I don't feel like working today because my favourite programmer died yesterday" into a computer?
It sounds a bit like you think computer science hasn't progressed past the TI-84?
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Old 13th June 2022, 08:52 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
We don't need to turn today's computers sentient. We need to create a new type of machine that is sentient. I don't see why that sounds so incredible. A brain is a material thing. At worst it's too complex to be figured out and recreated, but I doubt it.
Lol.

Maybe read the very first post again?

ETA: A star is a material thing. At worst it's too complex to be recreated by humans but I doubt it.

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Old 13th June 2022, 08:54 AM   #65
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nvm, not worth it.

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Old 13th June 2022, 08:56 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post
Lol.

Maybe read the very first post again?
Oh, okay. LaMDA isn't sentient. Today's computers can't do sentience. End thread.
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Old 13th June 2022, 08:56 AM   #67
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The human brain is an array of electrochemical transceivers in a chemical bath, generating a complex dynamic state in response to both external stimuli and stimuli from internal feedback loops.

Honestly it's pretty amazing that it works at all.
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Old 13th June 2022, 08:58 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post
It sounds a bit like the construction worker wants to school others on the inner workings of computers?
Read more carefully, Red. I'm not talking about computers. I'm talking about your apparent obliviousness to the entire field.
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Old 13th June 2022, 09:10 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
Oh, okay. LaMDA isn't sentient. Today's computers can't do sentience. End thread.
Just learn how computers work.

Also please comment on:

A star is a material thing. At worst it's too complex to be recreated by humans but I doubt it.
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Old 13th June 2022, 09:14 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post
So why use a computer to build something that works like a human brain?
Because we know the brain (why limit to human by the way?) works, often trying to replicate how something works in other forms is a way of understanding how something works.

But not sure what has to do with the topic of this thread - no one has said the software/hardware that is the bot in the OP is meant to be like a brain nor that they trying to replicate a brain.


Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post
Again: A computer is build by humans with the intention to make very fast calculations. By now, we are able to "put" statistics and regression "into" a computer. It.only.does.math....very.very.fast. End of the story. The rest is "Wow, this computer seems to be close to being sentient but I don't know what I'm talking about"
Again not sure what the relevance is - no one in this thread (as far as I can recall) has even suggested that the bot could be sentient.

Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post
How are we going to put "I realize that I am just a machine made out of metal and plastic" or "I don't feel like working today because my favourite programmer died yesterday" into a computer?
No idea - why not tell us?
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Old 13th June 2022, 09:17 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post
Lol.

Maybe read the very first post again?

ETA: A star is a material thing. At worst it's too complex to be recreated by humans but I doubt it.
Again the subjects of your analogy are not analogous! Stars aren't complex in many ways - they just happen to be big, really big, so big that if .... nah why waste it.
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Old 13th June 2022, 09:20 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Because we know the brain (why limit to human by the way?) works, often trying to replicate how something works in other forms is a way of understanding how something works.

But not sure what has to do with the topic of this thread - no one has said the software/hardware that is the bot in the OP is meant to be like a brain nor that they trying to replicate a brain.
The thread is not about the question "Is the bot (running on a computer) named lamda sentient?" Please tell me what the thread is about then


Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Again not sure what the relevance is - no one in this thread (as far as I can recall) has even suggested that the bot could be sentient.
The question was asked..."Is it (the bot) sentient?" to which I made several posts how a computer (the device the bot is running on) can never be sentient because it's a man made machine that contains nothing that even remotely resembles a brain.

Originally Posted by Darat View Post
No idea - why not tell us?
I can't, because there is no way

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Old 13th June 2022, 09:21 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Again the subjects of your analogy are not analogous! Stars aren't complex in many ways - they just happen to be big, really big, so big that if .... nah why waste it.
"X is a material thing" was not my argument
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Old 13th June 2022, 09:22 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post
"X is a material thing" was not my argument
And no one said it was - as I said your analogies keep failing because there are no grounds for an analogy between the subjects you choose.
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Old 13th June 2022, 09:24 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
And no one said it was - as I said your analogies keep failing because there are no grounds for an analogy between the subjects you choose.
Guess you need to talk to the person who brought the silly "point" up. Because it sounded an awful lot like "A brain is a material thing, why shouldn't we able to create one" Same goes for stars. And planets and and and....
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Old 13th June 2022, 09:24 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post
The thread is not about the question "Is the bot (running on a computer) named lamda sentient?" Please tell me what the thread is about then
The thread is indeed about the sentience or not of the bot. No one has said it isn't.

Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post


The question was asked..."Is it (the bot) sentient?" to which I made several posts how a computer (the device the bot is running on) can never be sentient because it's a man made machine that contains nothing that even remotely resembles a brain.
Which is a claim no one else has made so we are all not claiming the same thing!

Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post

I can't, because there is no way
Do you perhaps now see how you being expected to say how something you haven't claimed would work is a tad arse-about-tit?
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Old 13th June 2022, 09:27 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
The thread is indeed about the sentience or not of the bot. No one has said it isn't.

Ok. "No" then.




Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Do you perhaps now see how you being expected to say how something you haven't claimed would work is a tad arse-about-tit?
I'm not a native english speaker, so I don't even know what arse-about-tit is supposed to mean. I could surely google it, but by now it feels like a waste of time.

So, lamda is not sentient, never will be. /thread.
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Old 13th June 2022, 09:28 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post
Guess you need to talk to the person who brought the silly "point" up. Because it sounded an awful lot like "A brain is a material thing, why shouldn't we able to create one" Same goes for stars. And planets and and and....
Do you think a brain is non-material?
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Old 13th June 2022, 09:30 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Do you think a brain is non-material?
Nope.

Do you think we can create a star?
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Old 13th June 2022, 09:30 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post
...snip...time.

So, lamda is not sentient, never will be. /thread.
Which has already been said by others....
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