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Old 13th June 2022, 09:31 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post
Do you think we can create a star?
I have made no claims about stars, well apart from them being big, and yes there are of course some scales at which stars are no longer big.

Are brains non-material?
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Old 13th June 2022, 09:33 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post

*snip*

Are brains non-material?
Already answered 2 minutes ago. Again: Nope.

A brain is material, why shouldn't we be able to recreate it?

A star is material, why shouldn't we be able to recreate it?

ETA:

The earth's atmosphere is material, why shouldn't we be able to recreate it and fill the holes?

Last edited by EaglePuncher; 13th June 2022 at 09:36 AM.
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Old 13th June 2022, 09:40 AM   #83
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I would pity any AI ever developed.

Imagine being a developing intelligence, so basically a child, but without any legal protection whatsoever and your parents having total control not over your your sensory organs, but even able to turn you off at their whim and even capable of re-writing your very thoughts and no ability to escape.
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Old 13th June 2022, 09:41 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post
Already answered 2 minutes ago. Again: Nope.

A brain is material, why shouldn't we be able to recreate it?
Yet again, not what anyone is talking about. We are talking about the ability to artificially duplicate one part of the process of a working brain. Do you understand the difference?

Quote:
A star is material, why shouldn't we be able to recreate it?

ETA:

The earth's atmosphere is material, why shouldn't we be able to recreate it and fill the holes?
Scale beyond laboratory restrictions. Not so for one part of the processes of an organ.
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Old 13th June 2022, 09:45 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
I would pity any AI ever developed.

Imagine being a developing intelligence, so basically a child, but without any legal protection whatsoever and your parents having total control not over your your sensory organs, but even able to turn you off at their whim and even capable of re-writing your very thoughts and no ability to escape.
Another problem, yes. What good is a machine that is aware that there are many other entities which are not machines. Would it do work for me, knowing that it only exists to do work for me? Doubtful.

Would it eagerly participate in a friendly conversation, knowing that it can't do a lot of the activities the non-machines can do? Doubtful.
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Old 13th June 2022, 09:47 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post
Already answered 2 minutes ago. Again: Nope.
I replied before you added the "Nope"

Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post
A brain is material, why shouldn't we be able to recreate it?
They are created in their millions every single day.
Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post

A star is material, why shouldn't we be able to recreate it?
Your analogy simply doesn't work so no idea what you are trying to claim about a brain.

Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post
ETA:

The earth's atmosphere is material, why shouldn't we be able to recreate it and fill the holes?
Again your analogy makes no sense so no idea what you are trying to claim about a brain.

Why not say directly what you want us to understand about whatever point you think you are making?
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Old 13th June 2022, 09:51 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post
Just learn how computers work.

Also please comment on:

A star is a material thing. At worst it's too complex to be recreated by humans but I doubt it.
Creating a star is an issue of both scale and energy requirements, and we're unlikely to ever meet either. Creating a brain doesn't have the same energy requirements, and it has the opposite issue when it comes to scale. Once we learn to replace neurons with artificial ones we'll be on our way to create an artificial brain. The only question is whether we can create artificial neurons and replace real ones effectively.
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Old 13th June 2022, 09:51 AM   #88
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Edited by jimbob:  off topic and personalisation removed


Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Why not say directly what you want us to understand about whatever point you think you are making?

Already did a couple of times: A computer is nothing but a very very fast calculator. Explain to me how you build a sentient calculator, even in 1000 years from now.

Last edited by jimbob; 13th June 2022 at 10:15 AM.
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Old 13th June 2022, 09:54 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
Creating a brain doesn't have the same energy requirements
Evidence?

Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
The only question is whether we can create artificial neurons and replace real ones effectively.
A few minutes ago you seemed pretty sure of that
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Old 13th June 2022, 10:04 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post
Evidence?
The evolution of the human brain didn't even come close to bankrupting our star. It was basically a rounding error.


Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post
A few minutes ago you seemed pretty sure of that
We might destroy ourselves first.

I'm 99% sure that given enough time, humans could recreate anything that evolved on earth and then fine tune it, because it literally all happened with the resources available on earth.
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Old 13th June 2022, 10:12 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
The evolution of the human brain didn't even come close to bankrupting our star. It was basically a rounding error.
I don't see evidence for this claim you made a few minutes ago:
Quote:
Creating a brain doesn't have the same energy requirements.

Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
I'm 99% sure that given enough time, humans could recreate anything that evolved on earth and then fine tune it, because it literally all happened with the resources available on earth.
lol.

Can you create a tree without seeds or other material taken from trees?

Hey, maybe, to create a working brain, it would be enough to take brains from dead (or even living) people and duct tape them together?

Last edited by EaglePuncher; 13th June 2022 at 10:13 AM.
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Old 13th June 2022, 10:13 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post
Already did a couple of times: A computer is nothing but a very very fast calculator. Explain to me how you build a sentient calculator, even in 1000 years from now.

You program it to summarize a more or less continuous stream of raw sensory signals into a narrative of beings and objects acting upon one another in a world.

That's a tall order, but there's no reason to believe it's impossible.
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Old 13th June 2022, 10:14 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post
...snip..

Already did a couple of times: A computer is nothing but a very very fast calculator. Explain to me how you build a sentient calculator, even in 1000 years from now.
No one has made such a claim so why are you asking me about something I nor anyone else has claimed?

Again why can't you simply state what you mean, tell us why we will never be able to recreate a brain, why that means we will never be able to create non-evolved creature sentience? Which is what I think you are saying.

And if that isn't what you are saying why not simply state what you mean?
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Old 13th June 2022, 10:15 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
You program it to summarize a more or less continuous stream of raw sensory signals into a narrative of beings and objects acting upon one another in a world.

That's a tall order, but there's no reason to believe it's impossible.
Another one who doesn't understand computers. Pretty sad.
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Old 13th June 2022, 10:16 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post
Evidence?

...snip..:
E=mc2
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Old 13th June 2022, 10:18 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
No one has made such a claim so why are you asking me about something I nor anyone else has claimed?

Again why can't you simply state what you mean, tell us why we will never be able to recreate a brain, why that means we will never be able to create non-evolved creature sentience? Which is what I think you are saying.

And if that isn't what you are saying why not simply state what you mean?
The thread is about an allegedly sentient computer, so I will make posts that are about computers. You insisting I should not talk about computers is comical at best.
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Old 13th June 2022, 10:21 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
E=mc2
Poor Albert would be screaming in agony. I asked how one could know what the actual energy requirements are for creating a brain (which no one could possibly know) and you reply with that? Come on.
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Old 13th June 2022, 10:22 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post
Another one who doesn't understand computers. Pretty sad.

Can you correct my misunderstanding? Do you think it's impossible for a computer to perform the task I described, and if so, why?
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Old 13th June 2022, 10:24 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Can you correct my misunderstanding? Do you think it's impossible for a computer to perform the task I described, and if so, why?
You're the one who claims it's not impossible so why don't you give us a raw outline of how to actually do it?

I explained how computers work a couple of times by now.

Seriously, we already entered "God could exist because the universe is so big and he could be hiding, so it's not impossible for him to exist!"-territory.

All I read is "Well, it might not be impossible to create sentience but I don't have the slightest clue how"

Last edited by EaglePuncher; 13th June 2022 at 10:26 AM.
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Old 13th June 2022, 10:26 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post
I don't see evidence for this claim you made a few minutes ago:
How so? Brains were created by natural processes using a miniscule amount of a star's energy. Creating a star would take more than the star's energy.


Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post
Can you create a tree without seeds or other material taken from trees?
Not yet.

Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post
Hey, maybe, to create a working brain, it would be enough to take brains from dead (or even living) people and duct tape them together?
Hold my beer.
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Old 13th June 2022, 10:26 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post
The thread is about an allegedly sentient computer, so I will make posts that are about computers. You insisting I should not talk about computers is comical at best.
But as anyone reading the thread can see I have not insisted on that or anything even resembling that.

All I have done is ask you repeatedly to simply say what you mean, don't try using analogies you appear to suck at them, don't answer with a question. I and others have even tried to summarise what we think you are trying to say but you don't give any indication we are right or wrong.

Again - please just make your point, in your own words as to why we can never recreate a brain. Which is what I think you are trying to say.
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Old 13th June 2022, 10:28 AM   #102
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And here I was thinking this was going to be a lucid discussion about the OP.
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Old 13th June 2022, 10:29 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
How so? Brains were created by natural processes using a miniscule amount of a star's energy. Creating a star would take more than the star's energy.
Given enough energy, humans could create a star?

Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
Not yet.
Exactly, we are not yet able to create a star
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Old 13th June 2022, 10:32 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post
You're the one who claims it's not impossible so why don't you give us a raw outline of how to actually do it?

I explained how computers work a couple of times by now.

Seriously, we already entered "God could exist because the universe is so big and he could be hiding, so it's not impossible for him to exist!"-territory.

All I read is "Well, it might not be impossible to create sentience but I don't have the slightest clue how"
So, are you asserting that it's actually impossible? What is your basis for that?

Or, are you just taking the default position of no artificial sentience? That's respectable. It then means that the burden of proof is properly on those who claim to have perfected it.

Like SETI, then, where there is no evidence yet for any ETI, is there value in continuing research, if for no other purpose than spin-off technologies?

Or, back to being impossible - do you have some sort of philosophical objection to the whole thing?
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Old 13th June 2022, 10:33 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post
Given enough energy, humans could create a star?
Along with time, resources, and motivation, yes. Time would probably be the most problematic one.

Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post
Exactly, we are not yet able to create a star
The list of what humans can't do at the moment would be very long. It was even longer 50 years ago.
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Old 13th June 2022, 10:34 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post
Given enough energy, humans could create a star?



Exactly, we are not yet able to create a star
Dude...we don't need to be able to create stars to have a sentient AI. Nor do we need an organic brain, or to create life or any of the other whacky tangents you seem fixated on.

Do you know what the "A" in AI stands for? We are talking about mimicking a natural process that occurs in a living organ. We don't need to be able to build brains or stars to do so.
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Old 13th June 2022, 10:34 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post
Poor Albert would be screaming in agony. I asked how one could know what the actual energy requirements are for creating a brain (which no one could possibly know) and you reply with that? Come on.
Of course we can know - as I said millions of brains are created every single day. We can put a breeding pair of mice together - let them fertilise some eggs. Then record the energy as per e=mc2 we put into the system i.e. the food, the oxygen and so on until the young are born. That gives us an upper limit for the energy required. And we know that is infinitesimal compared to the energy required for a self-limited fusion reaction to start - i.e. a star.

If you want to only consider human brains we can again do an upper limit calculation of the energy required to increase the number of brains by X amount.

This isn't rocket science or even computer science.
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Old 13th June 2022, 10:35 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
But as anyone reading the thread can see I have not insisted on that or anything even resembling that.

All I have done is ask you repeatedly to simply say what you mean, don't try using analogies you appear to suck at them, don't answer with a question. I and others have even tried to summarise what we think you are trying to say but you don't give any indication we are right or wrong.

Again - please just make your point, in your own words as to why we can never recreate a brain. Which is what I think you are trying to say.
Quote me please or retract your strawman.

Again, the thread is about the question "Is this bot, running on a freaking computer, sentient?".

Then I replied with "A computer will never be sentient because a computer is nothing more than a very fast calculator. Everything you want a computer to do for you, you must tell it how to do it, in every little detail. Even if you spend the next 50 years to tell a computer: If I type in this, you do this you won't have a sentient machine because you still have a machine that mimics sentience (at best). Again, there is no way to tell a computer 'Now be sentient!'"
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Old 13th June 2022, 10:37 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Of course we can know - as I said millions of brains are created every single day. We can put a breeding pair of mice together - let them fertilise some eggs. Then record the energy as per e=mc2 we put into the system i.e. the food, the oxygen and so on until the young are born. That gives us an upper limit for the energy required. And we know that is infinitesimal compared to the energy required for a self-limited fusion reaction to start - i.e. a star.

If you want to only consider human brains we can again do an upper limit calculation of the energy required to increase the number of brains by X amount.

This isn't rocket science or even computer science.
Point taken. But I don't know what else to reply. It's not only about the energy but also the very process of creating a brain or an artificial brain.
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Old 13th June 2022, 10:39 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
Along with time, resources, and motivation, yes. Time would probably be the most problematic one.
lol.

Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
The list of what humans can't do at the moment would be very long. It was even longer 50 years ago.
Ok, so we actually will be able to travel faster than light? I mean, 100 years ago we did not even have computers, right?
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Old 13th June 2022, 10:42 AM   #111
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Ok, summary so far: The speed of light is a natural barrier we possibly cannot cross ever. But creating a sentient machine might be possible because why not, amirite? I mean we did not even have cars 200 years ago.
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Old 13th June 2022, 10:46 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post


Ok, so we actually will be able to travel faster than light? I mean, 100 years ago we did not even have computers, right?
I'm just pointing out why your analogy is silly. We know that some things have a physical limit, but no one has yet come up with a limit for creating an artificial brain. It's hard to even imagine such a limit, since sentient brains evolved with no intelligent input whatsoever.
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Old 13th June 2022, 10:48 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Jimbo07 View Post
So, are you asserting that it's actually impossible? What is your basis for that?

Or, are you just taking the default position of no artificial sentience? That's respectable. It then means that the burden of proof is properly on those who claim to have perfected it.

Like SETI, then, where there is no evidence yet for any ETI, is there value in continuing research, if for no other purpose than spin-off technologies?

Or, back to being impossible - do you have some sort of philosophical objection to the whole thing?
Well this takes us back to the opening post and the topic of the thread...

Currently I think it is fair to consider it very very unlikely that current commercially lead "AI" research will result in any kind of sentience - because that isn't the goal. Indeed the term "artificial intelligence" itself is probably not a very useful term now as it is as much a marketing phrase as it is a scientific term.

There is still research into the old fashioned kind of AI - the "I compute therefore I think" goal and also there is a lot of research from the direction of neuroscience in trying to understand how brains work - it is from that arena that I suspect if we can ever create a non-evolved-creature sentience that we will see it happening.

What I find very exciting is how "low" we've got to modelling brain functionality i.e. down to assemblies, it will be very interesting to see if they can start to generate the "higher" level of brain functions from these low-level models which is how the smart money is betting the brain works - emergent properties on the back of emergent properties with feedback thrown in.
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Old 13th June 2022, 10:50 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
I'm just pointing out why your analogy is silly. We know that some things have a physical limit, but no one has yet come up with a limit for creating an artificial brain. It's hard to even imagine such a limit, since sentient brains evolved with no intelligent input whatsoever.
Sentience is inherent to brains. Sentience is not inherent to machines. Show me how you program a machine to be sentient.

I will stop replying now, working on my Dyson Sphere. I mean all you need is a lot of metal, right?
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Old 13th June 2022, 10:53 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post
Ok, summary so far: The speed of light is a natural barrier we possibly cannot cross ever. But creating a sentient machine might be possible because why not, amirite? I mean we did not even have cars 200 years ago.
Nope.
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Old 13th June 2022, 10:53 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Well this takes us back to the opening post and the topic of the thread...

Currently I think it is fair to consider it very very unlikely that current commercially lead "AI" research will result in any kind of sentience - because that isn't the goal. Indeed the term "artificial intelligence" itself is probably not a very useful term now as it is as much a marketing phrase as it is a scientific term.

There is still research into the old fashioned kind of AI - the "I compute therefore I think" goal and also there is a lot of research from the direction of neuroscience in trying to understand how brains work - it is from that arena that I suspect if we can ever create a non-evolved-creature sentience that we will see it happening.

What I find very exciting is how "low" we've got to modelling brain functionality i.e. down to assemblies, it will be very interesting to see if they can start to generate the "higher" level of brain functions from these low-level models which is how the smart money is betting the brain works - emergent properties on the back of emergent properties with feedback thrown in.
Wow, you perfectly understood the whole time, except for the last 2 paragraphs which is basically another "Well, why not?"
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Old 13th June 2022, 10:54 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Nope.
Ok, show me how to create a sentient machine

ETA: You would greatly benefit from understanding the difference between "sentience" and "mimicking sentience"

Last edited by EaglePuncher; 13th June 2022 at 10:56 AM.
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Old 13th June 2022, 10:56 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post
Sentience is inherent to brains. Sentience is not inherent to machines. Show me how you program a machine to be sentient.

I will stop replying now, working on my Dyson Sphere. I mean all you need is a lot of metal, right?
Glad you never knew the Wright brothers.....
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Old 13th June 2022, 10:57 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Glad you never knew the Wright brothers.....
Oh, the same argument that the Hydrino folks make. Well done!
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Old 13th June 2022, 10:58 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post
Ok, show me how to create a sentient machine
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