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Old 14th June 2022, 09:02 PM   #1
acbytesla
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Who is more evil?

One of the questions I pose to Christians is this.

Who is more evil, God or the Devil? And how did you decide?
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Old 14th June 2022, 10:24 PM   #2
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One of the questions I have for Christians:

why do you have to personify Good and Evil?
That's just an abdication of personal moral responsibility.
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Old 14th June 2022, 10:27 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
One of the questions I pose to Christians is this.

Who is more evil, God or the Devil? And how did you decide?
Some Christians don't believe in the devil.
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Old 14th June 2022, 10:30 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
One of the questions I pose to Christians is this.

Who is more evil, God or the Devil? And how did you decide?
What kinds of answers do you get?
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Old 15th June 2022, 03:47 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
One of the questions I pose to Christians is this.

Who is more evil, God or the Devil? And how did you decide?

Neither.

Things that do not exist are neither good nor evil... they simpley do not exist!
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Old 15th June 2022, 04:33 AM   #6
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Bible sez.
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Old 15th June 2022, 04:42 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
One of the questions I pose to Christians is this.

Who is more evil, God or the Devil? And how did you decide?
Is this based on the old 'No of deaths in the bible attributed to god (several hundred thousand / million) vs no of deaths attributed to Satan (0)'?
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Old 15th June 2022, 04:57 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen View Post
Is this based on the old 'No of deaths in the bible attributed to god (several hundred thousand / million) vs no of deaths attributed to Satan (0)'?
Or that however evil Satan is supposed to be, if God is more powerful and fails to stop Satan from doing evil, God is therefore responsible. The adult who stands by and watches a child bully a toddler can hardly be good, can they?
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Old 15th June 2022, 07:01 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
What kinds of answers do you get?
With theists, they say the devil. And their reasons are always not thought out.. But those answers opens a can of worms for them. God does far worse things in the Bible than the devil and this is God's book not the devil's.
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Old 15th June 2022, 07:36 AM   #10
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I mean how far down the rabbit hole do we have to go before starting?

God doesn't exist. Satan doesn't exist. Hell Satan doesn't really even exist in the Bible, only in Biblical Fan Fiction.

Satan doesn't do anything in the Bible. Even ignoring the fact that the Lucifier and the Snake in the Garden of Eden aren't Satan the only thing he does is "tempting" which is pretty low on the evil scale.
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Old 15th June 2022, 07:38 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I mean how far down the rabbit hole do we have to go before starting?

God doesn't exist. Satan doesn't exist. Hell Satan doesn't really even exist in the Bible, only in Biblical Fan Fiction.

Satan doesn't do anything in the Bible. Even ignoring the fact that the Lucifier and the Snake in the Garden of Eden aren't Satan the only thing he does is "tempting" which is pretty low on the evil scale.
What about Job?
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Old 15th June 2022, 07:51 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
What about Job?
God and Satan were sort of both in on that one.

Satan never really comes across as God's advisory in the Bible, more like God's quality assurance guy.

God's the one running the test on Job more so than Satan. And Satan "tempting" Jesus in the desert comes across as more petty office politics than epic Good Versus Evil.
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Old 15th June 2022, 07:55 AM   #13
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Now the argument you're probably going to hear some version of is well the difference is God made us, Satan didn't. We are God's to do with as he wants, not Satan's.

I find that... less than persuasive myself.
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Old 15th June 2022, 07:55 AM   #14
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Meh...I don't think you can call god evil on these criteria. For the moment, let's say they exist as written (the OP question is meaningless otherwise). So like fictional character discussion:

God kills a mess of humans. Ok. But he sent himself/his son to go through that, so it's pretty clearly "no biggie" to him on a cosmic scale, yes? Just a little transient discomfort in the big picture of Eternity and all that.

Evil, to God, is drawing his creation away from his glory or whatever. He doesn't actually work towards that end. Louis-Lucifer does. So if we view killing/mortal death as just a blip in eternity, and evil as leading man away from eternal bliss, then Satan slam dunks the evil thing.

As far as watching it happen, see Will, Free and all the implications that follow.
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Old 15th June 2022, 08:06 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
God and Satan were sort of both in on that one.

Satan never really comes across as God's advisory adversary in the Bible, more like God's quality assurance guy.
FTFY
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
God's the one running the test on Job more so than Satan. And Satan "tempting" Jesus in the desert comes across as more petty office politics than epic Good Versus Evil.
Agreed.
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Old 15th June 2022, 08:15 AM   #16
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And that takes us back to the core problem, it makes no rational sense that, or indeed even how, God somehow has a vastly less powerful archnemesis.

The Problem of Evil. It's one of those gamebreakers for most concepts of God, and literally all concepts of God that actually exist in the wild and outside of "Arguments about God where God only exists as a collection of special pleadings."
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Old 15th June 2022, 08:19 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Meh...I don't think you can call god evil on these criteria. For the moment, let's say they exist as written (the OP question is meaningless otherwise). So like fictional character discussion:

God kills a mess of humans. Ok. But he sent himself/his son to go through that, so it's pretty clearly "no biggie" to him on a cosmic scale, yes? Just a little transient discomfort in the big picture of Eternity and all that.

Evil, to God, is drawing his creation away from his glory or whatever. He doesn't actually work towards that end. Louis-Lucifer does. So if we view killing/mortal death as just a blip in eternity, and evil as leading man away from eternal bliss, then Satan slam dunks the evil thing.

As far as watching it happen, see Will, Free and all the implications that follow.
You're kidding...right? Even if we accept that death is no biggie,, the God of the Bible not only kills people, he tortures them for eternity. He casts them down into the lake of fire where there is gnashing of teeth and bone. And for what? Not believing in what he failed to provide enough evidence for? Seems pretty evil to me. An eternal penalty for a finite crime. And how does one justify making incredulity a crime?

The God of the Bible demands that we live our lives we have the way he wants us to under the penalty of eternal torment. This is not giving us free will. It is coercion.

Also if God is omniscient and omnipotent as the Bible says he is than free will doesn't exist.
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Old 15th June 2022, 11:05 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You're kidding...right? Even if we accept that death is no biggie,, the God of the Bible not only kills people, he tortures them for eternity. He casts them down into the lake of fire where there is gnashing of teeth and bone. And for what? Not believing in what he failed to provide enough evidence for? Seems pretty evil to me. An eternal penalty for a finite crime. And how does one justify making incredulity a crime?
The "torturing", metaphorical though it may be, is the consequence of the human's choices. Hardly a recreational sadism. The Bad Guy, of course, is actively trying to recruit souls for down yonder. God invites you to his crib. Up to you which you prefer.

As far as evidence goes, faith as a mustard seed and Doubting Thomas and all that.

Quote:
The God of the Bible demands that we live our lives we have the way he wants us to under the penalty of eternal torment. This is not giving us free will. It is coercion.
Disagreed. Surely you know people IRL who willingly make the worst decisions for themselves? "Some men you just can't reach."

Quote:
Also if God is omniscient and omnipotent as the Bible says he is than free will doesn't exist.
Also disagreed. Knowing all can simply mean knowing all there is to know, and if you willfully create a free will, you have chosen to not know some things. Same with omnipotence. Yeah, this gets into making rocks too big to lift and all, but hey, I wasn't hired to proofread the **** before publication.

Plus the omnis are kind of tacked on, not scriptural. Saying God is all powerful does not mean Omnipotent. It means he has all the available juice, but it was often claimed he needed rest and had to ask for stuff. Not omni anything by the way we use the term. I can be all powerful in my home, yet not be an Omnipotent god. The omnis are strawmanning the claims a bit.
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Old 15th June 2022, 12:01 PM   #19
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Of course one has to try to answer this in context, which then becomes a problem since part of the context is that God cannot be evil, only good, etc. But if you accept the stories without the underlying assumptions, my vote is that Satan is more evil, because it's intentional. God is just a clueless jerk who demands you say "may I" before he consents not to burn you and feed your children to hungry beasts.

I think the same is true if we acknowledge that both are fictions invented by people. The people involved also would see Satan as purely evil but thwarted often by God, and God as purely good, but greeting-card good like his followers, praised for a gymnastic victory or a child being pulled out of a well, excused for cities wrecked and children dying and the seas filling with plastic.
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Old 15th June 2022, 12:12 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The "torturing", metaphorical though it may be, is the consequence of the human's choices. Hardly a recreational sadism. The Bad Guy, of course, is actively trying to recruit souls for down yonder. God invites you to his crib. Up to you which you prefer.
One, belief is not a choice. I didn't choose not to believe. I don't believe because the tale is unbelievable. If salvation is most important why is it that God provides more evidence for the existence of a coffee cup than for him?
God is said in the bible to know a priori who will go to heaven or hell. He knows the number of hairs on our head. He knows our thoughts and actions before we make them.

Where is the choice? And if he knows this, how can you say it isn't recreational sadism? God sets the rules. The best description of the God of the Bible is Al Pacino's in the Devil's Advocate.

Quote:
"Let me give you a little inside information about God. God likes to watch. He's a prankster. Think about it. He gives man instincts. He gives you this extraordinary gift, and then what does he do? I swear for His own amusement, his own private, cosmic gag reel, He sets the rules in opposition. It's the goof of all time. Look but don't touch. Touch, but don't taste. Taste, don't swallow. Ahaha. And while you're jumpin' from one foot to the next, what is he doing? He's laughin' his sick, ******' ass off! He's a tight-ass! He's a SADIST! He's an absentee landlord! Worship that? Never!"
As for Satan, who says he's actively recruiting? The Bible is God's spin on things? How do you know it's not one sided?

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
As far as evidence goes, faith as a mustard seed and Doubting Thomas and all that.
Faith is not evidence. Faith is the excuse that theists give because they don't have evidence. Because if they had evidence, they would give the evidence.

Faith, my friend is nothing more than gullibility.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Disagreed. Surely you know people IRL who willingly make the worst decisions for themselves? "Some men you just can't reach."
Except God has set the rules. He invented Hell and he made the ultimately unforgivable sin not believing in that which there is no evidence. It wasn't actually the devil that tempted man. It was God that placed the tree of knowledge in the Garden not Satan. It was God who gave man urges not Satan.

The God in the bible is a narcissistic sexist, racist genocidal thug. He is the most vile and evil character in all fiction.
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Also disagreed. Knowing all can simply mean knowing all there is to know, and if you willfully create a free will, you have chosen to not know some things. Same with omnipotence. Yeah, this gets into making rocks too big to lift and all, but hey, I wasn't hired to proofread the **** before publication.
So the Bible is wrong. Back to cherry picking. LMAO

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Plus the omnis are kind of tacked on, not scriptural. Saying God is all powerful does not mean Omnipotent. It means he has all the available juice, but it was often claimed he needed rest and had to ask for stuff. Not omni anything by the way we use the term. I can be all powerful in my home, yet not be an Omnipotent god. The omnis are strawmanning the claims a bit.
Right and wrong

Great is our Lord and abundant in strength;
His understanding is infinite.

1 John 3:20
Verse*Concepts
in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things.

Psalm 139:4
Verse*Concepts
Even before there is a word on my tongue,
Behold, O Lord, You know it all.


Matthew 10:30
Verse*Concepts
But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

Judges 1:19
The Lord was with Judah and enabled them to take possession of the hill country, but they could not drive out the people who were living in the valley because those people had iron chariots.
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Old 15th June 2022, 12:57 PM   #21
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I was raised Catholic, so from my experience I would say definitely god is more evil.

If for no other reason than he created the devil. I mean, it's like comparing Darth Vader to a stormtrooper--no comparison!

All of the most memorable bible stories from my childhood are related to god--not satan!
Highlights:
1) Lot and family and being turned into salt for having the audacity to look back.
2) Abraham being told to kill his kid or else.
3) Everyone drowned in the flood, just for the heck of it
4) The pharaoh's heart being hardened just so god could torture more people.
and so on...
What has the devil ever done?
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Old 15th June 2022, 01:16 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by stanfr View Post
I was raised Catholic, so from my experience I would say definitely god is more evil.

If for no other reason than he created the devil. I mean, it's like comparing Darth Vader to a stormtrooper--no comparison!

All of the most memorable bible stories from my childhood are related to god--not satan!
Highlights:
1) Lot and family and being turned into salt for having the audacity to look back.
2) Abraham being told to kill his kid or else.
3) Everyone drowned in the flood, just for the heck of it
4) The pharaoh's heart being hardened just so god could torture more people.
and so on...
The list is much longer than this.
Originally Posted by stanfr View Post
What has the devil ever done?
He screwed around with Job with God's consent.
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Old 15th June 2022, 01:17 PM   #23
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Old 15th June 2022, 01:36 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Of course one has to try to answer this in context, which then becomes a problem since part of the context is that God cannot be evil, only good, etc. But if you accept the stories without the underlying assumptions, my vote is that Satan is more evil, because it's intentional. God is just a clueless jerk who demands you say "may I" before he consents not to burn you and feed your children to hungry beasts.

I think the same is true if we acknowledge that both are fictions invented by people. The people involved also would see Satan as purely evil but thwarted often by God, and God as purely good, but greeting-card good like his followers, praised for a gymnastic victory or a child being pulled out of a well, excused for cities wrecked and children dying and the seas filling with plastic.
Are you say God wasn't intentional when he flooded the entire earth killing all of humanity and all living creatures with the exception of a tiny few?
How about when in Chronicles God helps the men of Judah to kill a half a million men?
How about in Exodus when he slaughters the firstborn children and cattle of Egypt?
How about when in Numbers God kills 14,000 Israelites for complaining that God is killing too many of them?
How about in Joshua where God helps Jericho kill men abd women, old and young as well as sheep and donkeys?
How about telling Abraham to kill his son?

I didn't scratch the surface of the evil things god did or ordered others to do. I could fill page after page. As for Satan, he is said to be evil but the evil deeds actually attributed to Satan are minimal in comparison.
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Old 15th June 2022, 02:43 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Are you say God wasn't intentional when he flooded the entire earth killing all of humanity and all living creatures with the exception of a tiny few?
How about when in Chronicles God helps the men of Judah to kill a half a million men?
How about in Exodus when he slaughters the firstborn children and cattle of Egypt?
How about when in Numbers God kills 14,000 Israelites for complaining that God is killing too many of them?
How about in Joshua where God helps Jericho kill men abd women, old and young as well as sheep and donkeys?
How about telling Abraham to kill his son?

I didn't scratch the surface of the evil things god did or ordered others to do. I could fill page after page. As for Satan, he is said to be evil but the evil deeds actually attributed to Satan are minimal in comparison.
Sure that's the obvious view from outside but God always has a excuse and always makes up the rules. If you start with God being God, he can't lose.
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Old 15th June 2022, 02:50 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Sure that's the obvious view from outside but God always has a excuse and always makes up the rules. If you start with God being God, he can't lose.
That is the opinion of every evil dude. They are just misunderstood. I'm sure Hitler never thought that he was bad.

My question isn't what the fairy tale God thinks, but what do we think about God and the devil and why?
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Old 15th June 2022, 03:04 PM   #27
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The author of a story isn't evil, no matter how many of their characters they kill off, but when the characters start acting on their own and talking to you, it might be time to get sectioned.
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Old 15th June 2022, 03:39 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
The author of a story isn't evil, no matter how many of their characters they kill off, but when the characters start acting on their own and talking to you, it might be time to get sectioned.
Err, how about the authors of "Zabiba and the King", "The Short Course", and "Mein Kampf"?

Evil?
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Old 15th June 2022, 03:52 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
The author of a story isn't evil, no matter how many of their characters they kill off, but when the characters start acting on their own and talking to you, it might be time to get sectioned.
I get what you're saying. But who is the author of the story? The Bible is a collection of 66+ books and an unknown number of mostly anonymous authors. Also some books in the bible are believed to have multiple authors.

Also, despite what Christians say the books of the bible don't claim to be the word of God.
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Old 15th June 2022, 03:57 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Err, how about the authors of "Zabiba and the King", "The Short Course", and "Mein Kampf"?

Evil?
They're the absolute source of values within their own writing. Of course they aren't evil in there.
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Old 15th June 2022, 04:07 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
One of the questions I pose to Christians is this.

Who is more evil, God or the Devil? And how did you decide?

When you throw in the fact that God made the Devil it gets even more fuzzy.
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Old 15th June 2022, 04:27 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
That is the opinion of every evil dude. They are just misunderstood. I'm sure Hitler never thought that he was bad.

My question isn't what the fairy tale God thinks, but what do we think about God and the devil and why?
Oh well then that's a slam dunk, of course, or would be if there were a god at all. At least in the Bible, the devil is a piker, with little evidence that he's done much of anything except whisper in people's ear and try to make them sin. God gets to do all the real harm and murder and repression and stupid rules, and though Satan is said to be the administrator of Hell, it's God who sends people there with his silly rules and jealousy and pride. You really have to read the Bible upside down and backwards in a language you don't speak not to realize what a total ******* God is.
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Old 15th June 2022, 04:49 PM   #33
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To answer the question, you have to know what ďevilĒ actually is. To a Christian, evil is anything that turns them away from God. God says no fornication; fornication is evil. God cannot, by definition, be evil because He is the source of all good.

You canít judge God by human definitions, if you are going to play the game correctly. By which I mean, according to the rules set out in the Bible.

The Devil, I guess we could call him evil, but I donít think thatís particularly fair -again, if we are going to play the game correctly. Satan isnít really, in the Bible, what he currently is today. Mostly, he was a tool of God. Like, tempting people into turning away from God is his job description.

We are supposed to choose God, no matter what the Devil or even God hisself throws at us. We who willingly turn away from God? We are the evil ones.
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Old 15th June 2022, 05:00 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
One of the questions I pose to Christians is this.

Who is more evil, God or the Devil? And how did you decide?
This is boring.

Ask a Christian, they'll tell you Satan, because, well duh.

Ask an atheist, they'll tell you God, because that's the bog-standard, Atheism 101 take on Christianity. Atheists never get tired of telling you how they figured out the Christian God is really the Worst Ever.

There's nothing new or interesting here.

What would be new or interesting is if you told us about a Christian you know personally, in real life, with whom you have maintained a relationship, and with whom you've had many conversations about religion, morality, faith, etc. If you told us his answer to your question, and his reasoning for it. If you told us whether his answer changed over time. How his Christianity appears to inform his day to day choices and behavior. How it affects your relationship.

You know, some kind of real human interaction that goes beyond toy scenarios, goes beyond Internet Tough Guy, goes beyond mere confrontation junkie-ism.

Have you ever had a conversation with a real live Christian, that wasn't just the same predictable gotchas, the same Cool Story Bro script? Tell us about that.
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Old 15th June 2022, 05:50 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
This is boring.

Ask a Christian, they'll tell you Satan, because, well duh.

Ask an atheist, they'll tell you God, because that's the bog-standard, Atheism 101 take on Christianity. Atheists never get tired of telling you how they figured out the Christian God is really the Worst Ever.

There's nothing new or interesting here.

What would be new or interesting is if you told us about a Christian you know personally, in real life, with whom you have maintained a relationship, and with whom you've had many conversations about religion, morality, faith, etc. If you told us his answer to your question, and his reasoning for it. If you told us whether his answer changed over time. How his Christianity appears to inform his day to day choices and behavior. How it affects your relationship.

You know, some kind of real human interaction that goes beyond toy scenarios, goes beyond Internet Tough Guy, goes beyond mere confrontation junkie-ism.

Have you ever had a conversation with a real live Christian, that wasn't just the same predictable gotchas, the same Cool Story Bro script? Tell us about that.
Your response is about what I'd expect. You didn't address the question at all.

I spent years going to Bible camp every summer as well as going to church every week for almost two decades. I have had hundreds of conversations with Christians as most of my family members identify as Christians. Not to mention my best friend and his family. As well as my old boss.

My experience is that most Christians don't actually know much scripture. They might know certain passages very well but those were cherry picked by their pastors.

But generally, the vast majority of Christians I've dealt with ignore the Old Testament and use post hoc rationalizations to hand wave away the parts of the Bible that doesn't fit with them. They will say things like that the OT doesnít matter since we are living under the new covenant now.

This is what I did. That is until my late twenties when I decided to read the Bible straight through starting with Genesis. I was taught my entire life that God was perfect and loving.
But I don't know you can read the Old Testament and believe either of those two claims about God. And the Bible teaches us that God is unchanging.

So there are problems with the doctrine, the theology or the scripture. God cannot be loving and have done all those terrible things. He couldn't have been the sexist racist misogynistic thug and still be loving. He couldn't be this loving being if he sentences non-believers to eternal torment. I can only look at the written words on the page to judge this.

I know lots of Christians that happen to be good people. But I donít believe their Christianity has a damn thing to do with it. If anything, I see more awful human beings that use their Christianity to justify terrible hateful behavior.


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Old 15th June 2022, 05:53 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
When you throw in the fact that God made the Devil it gets even more fuzzy.
Surprisingly, it is actually helpful to read the fan fiction. I read Paradise Lost a couple of years ago, which has been pretty much fully imported into the common conception of God, the Devil and what happened in Eden in the minds of most Christians. Apart from the shockingly explicit misogyny, it also goes in-depth into how Lucifer, the angel, became Satan, the devil. Like, really in-depth.

It's interesting. I recommend it.
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Old 15th June 2022, 05:59 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
To answer the question, you have to know what ďevilĒ actually is. To a Christian, evil is anything that turns them away from God. God says no fornication; fornication is evil. God cannot, by definition, be evil because He is the source of all good.
God also tells us not to eat shellfish, pork or cheesburgers. He tells us to kill our wives if they don't bleed on their wedding night. He tells us that it's ok to stone our own children.
Yeah, that's good.
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
You canít judge God by human definitions, if you are going to play the game correctly. By which I mean, according to the rules set out in the Bible.
Sure you can. I donít go to the bible to judge the bible.
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
The Devil, I guess we could call him evil, but I donít think thatís particularly fair -again, if we are going to play the game correctly. Satan isnít really, in the Bible, what he currently is today. Mostly, he was a tool of God. Like, tempting people into turning away from God is his job description.
Correctly to whom?
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
We are supposed to choose God, no matter what the Devil or even God hisself throws at us. We who willingly turn away from God? We are the evil ones.
Funny how that works out.

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Old 15th June 2022, 06:02 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Your response is about what I'd expect. You didn't address the question at all.
Of course I did. I don't have to re-hash the well-known answers to this question.

Quote:
I spent years going to Bible camp every summer as well as going to church every week for almost two decades. I have had hundreds of conversations with Christians as most of my family members identify as Christians. Not to mention my best friend and his family. As well as my old boss.

My experience is that most Christians don't actually know much scripture. They might know certain passages very well but those were cherry picked by their pastors.

But generally, the vast majority of Christians I've dealt with ignore the Old Testament and use post hoc rationalizations to hand wave away the parts of the Bible that doesn't fit with them. They will say things like that the OT doesnít matter since we are living under the new covenant now.

This is what I did. That is until my late twenties when I decided to read the Bible straight through starting with Genesis. I was taught my entire life that God was perfect and loving.
But I don't know you can read the Old Testament and believe either of those two claims about God. And the Bible teaches us that God is unchanging.

So there are problems with the doctrine, the theology or the scripture. God cannot be loving and have done all those terrible things. He couldn't have been the sexist racist misogynistic thug and still be loving. He couldn't be this loving being if he sentences non-believers to eternal torment. I can only look at the written words on the page to judge this.

I know lots of Christians that happen to be good people. But I donít believe their Christianity has a damn thing to do with it. If anything, I see more awful human beings that use their Christianity to justify terrible hateful behavior.


.
This is the same beginner atheism loop that circles back around on this forum every few months. We all know all this already. We all know the answers to your question already. You know we all know the answers. Why loop back around to the beginning again and again and again? You're preaching to the choir, and you're still compelled to pull out a fringe reset for some reason.

When will the discussion move forward? When will it make progress? When will it evolve? When will you come up with something more novel and insightful than the old "god is the real villain" chestnut?
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Old 15th June 2022, 06:22 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Surprisingly, it is actually helpful to read the fan fiction. I read Paradise Lost a couple of years ago, which has been pretty much fully imported into the common conception of God, the Devil and what happened in Eden in the minds of most Christians. Apart from the shockingly explicit misogyny, it also goes in-depth into how Lucifer, the angel, became Satan, the devil. Like, really in-depth.

It's interesting. I recommend it.

It's vey good. Not an easy read since we're talking 17th Century Engilsh. And Milton isn't Shakespeare.

The modern ideas about Satan and hell don't actually come ftom the bible but from extra canonical sources including but not limited to Paradise Lost and The Devine Comedy.
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Old 15th June 2022, 06:26 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
It's vey good. Not an easy read since we're talking 17th Century Engilsh. And Milton isn't Shakespeare.

The modern ideas about Satan and hell don't actually come ftom the bible but from extra canonical sources including but not limited to Paradise Lost and The Devine Comedy.
Indeed. I remember one time when I was at church I asked the pastor where in the Bible the story of Satan's fall from heaven was, because I was interested in knowing more about it. He wasn't able to tell me, because that story isn't in the Bible, it's in Paradise Lost.
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