Who is more evil?

[acbytesla]

Originally Posted by theprestige

Of course I did. I don't have to re-hash the well-known answers to this question.


This is the same beginner atheism loop that circles back around on this forum every few months. We all know all this already. We all know the answers to your question already. You know we all know the answers. Why loop back around to the beginning again and again and again? You're preaching to the choir, and you're still compelled to pull out a fringe reset for some reason.

When will the discussion move forward? When will it make progress? When will it evolve? When will you come up with something more novel and insightful than the old "god is the real villain" chestnut?

Insightful and novel about a 4 thousand year old religion? Surely ye jest.

My point is that people should read what the bible literally says. And through fresh eyes and not through the tired teachings of smarmy con men that have a financial and power incentive to spin and distort the text.

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by acbytesla

Insightful and novel about a 4 thousand year old religion? Surely ye jest.

I am entirely serious. Why start this thread at all, if you know you don't have anything new to say?

Quote:

My point is that people should read what the bible literally says. And through fresh eyes and not through the tired teachings of smarmy con men that have a financial and power incentive to spin and distort the text.

None of this is a new idea to anyone here. It wasn't new the last two dozen times anyone here posted it. Why start a new thread to say something you know has already been said and that you know everyone here already agrees with? Were you worried we'd forgotten? You're concerned about backsliding among the faithful? Thinking maybe it's been a couple months, we're starting to forget why we don't like Christianity?

[stanfr]

Originally Posted by acbytesla

Insightful and novel about a 4 thousand year old religion? Surely ye jest.

My point is that people should read what the bible literally says. And through fresh eyes and not through the tired teachings of smarmy con men that have a financial and power incentive to spin and distort the text.

Then thank God I converted around the same time in my life as you did, and I managed to do it without reading the Bible straight through. I think I got through a few begats and called it quits, reading the whole thing would be like being tied up and forced to listen to an entire Justin Bieber collection...nah

And ignore Prestige, I for one think this is a fun thread!

[acbytesla]

Originally Posted by stanfr

Then thank God I converted around the same time in my life as you did, and I managed to do it without reading the Bible straight through. I think I got through a few begats and called it quits, reading the whole thing would be like being tied up and forced to listen to an entire Justin Bieber collection...nah

And ignore Prestige, I for one think this is a fun thread!

Hard to believe I know but reading the bible in its entirety is more torture than listening to Bieber's music catalog. Hell, you've done really well if you can make it through the Tanakh

Everybody skips the begats. I'm sure I skimmed through other passages like Daniel and Revelation. Anyone who says they understood Revelation is a liar.

Prestige is Prestige.

[dann]

Originally Posted by acbytesla

One of the questions I pose to Christians is this.
Who is more evil, God or the Devil?

'Satan, obviously!'

Quote:

And how did you decide?

'God told us so!'

My question to you, acbytesla: Why do you ask them?!


ETA: It's also what convinces MAGA minds that Biden is more evil than Trump.

[acbytesla]

Originally Posted by dann

'Satan, obviously!'

'God told us so!'

My question to you, acbytesla: Why do you ask them?!


ETA: It's also what convinces MAGA minds that Biden is more evil than Trump.

I'm curious about their epistemology. What's their reasoning? It varies from none to bizarre and convoluted. And you're right. It's not unlike the MAGA CHUD.

[wareyin]

Originally Posted by theprestige

I am entirely serious. Why start this thread at all, if you know you don't have anything new to say?


None of this is a new idea to anyone here. It wasn't new the last two dozen times anyone here posted it. Why start a new thread to say something you know has already been said and that you know everyone here already agrees with? Were you worried we'd forgotten? You're concerned about backsliding among the faithful? Thinking maybe it's been a couple months, we're starting to forget why we don't like Christianity?

I must say, this is quite a novel approach for you, theprestige. Very groundbreaking stuff, and I appreciate your creative stretch.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by acbytesla

It's vey good. Not an easy read since we're talking 17th Century Engilsh. And Milton isn't Shakespeare.

The modern ideas about Satan and hell don't actually come ftom the bible but from extra canonical sources including but not limited to Paradise Lost and The Devine Comedy.

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Indeed. I remember one time when I was at church I asked the pastor where in the Bible the story of Satan's fall from heaven was, because I was interested in knowing more about it. He wasn't able to tell me, because that story isn't in the Bible, it's in Paradise Lost.

Yep - the idea of the personified evil with horns and hooves and demons and summonings is - for Christianity - a recent idea, its only about 500 years old.

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by acbytesla

One, belief is not a choice. I didn't choose not to believe. I don't believe because the tale is unbelievable. If salvation is most important why is it that God provides more evidence for the existence of a coffee cup than for him?
God is said in the bible to know a priori who will go to heaven or hell. He knows the number of hairs on our head. He knows our thoughts and actions before we make them.

Where is the choice? And if he knows this, how can you say it isn't recreational sadism? God sets the rules. The best description of the God of the Bible is Al Pacino's in the Devil's Advocate.



As for Satan, who says he's actively recruiting? The Bible is God's spin on things? How do you know it's not one sided?

Faith is not evidence. Faith is the excuse that theists give because they don't have evidence. Because if they had evidence, they would give the evidence.

Faith, my friend is nothing more than gullibility.



Except God has set the rules. He invented Hell and he made the ultimately unforgivable sin not believing in that which there is no evidence. It wasn't actually the devil that tempted man. It was God that placed the tree of knowledge in the Garden not Satan. It was God who gave man urges not Satan.

The God in the bible is a narcissistic sexist, racist genocidal thug. He is the most vile and evil character in all fiction.


So the Bible is wrong. Back to cherry picking. LMAO



Right and wrong

Great is our Lord and abundant in strength;
His understanding is infinite.

1 John 3:20
Verse*Concepts
in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things.

Psalm 139:4
Verse*Concepts
Even before there is a word on my tongue,
Behold, O Lord, You know it all.

Matthew 10:30
Verse*Concepts
But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

Judges 1:19
The Lord was with Judah and enabled them to take possession of the hill country, but they could not drive out the people who were living in the valley because those people had iron chariots.

Hooooooooold on there, Baba Louis. You're flying off on multiple theological tangents.

The main disagreement I would have with your interpretations is treating the bible like a precisely worded technical manual. I'd take it much more loosely, based on internal usages. Genesis says the universe was cranked out in six days, but in Peter it is claimed that a thousand years is a day to god. Even that is still not a mathematical extrapolation. It's a figure of speech, and I take the bible in it's entirety that way.

You see this as a contradiction, as if in a technical manual. I see this as the telephone game across generations, and when finally written down, it was mangled pretty good. Also, these pre-Age of Enlightenment cats spoke metaphorically out of habit. Christ himself was said to have been the Messiah, coming not with a metal sword, but with (*insert jazz hands*) the Sword of the holy Spirit. Nothing was as literal as we read things today. Millennia-past goat herders and fishermen were not stellar historians.

[acbytesla]

Originally Posted by stanfr

And ignore Prestige, I for one think this is a fun thread!

He says he's bored because he doesn't want to think about it logically. I see this over and over again out of Christians. They know that their Christian god cannot be defended on the merits so they run away. They have built the foundation of how they view the world and others on a shaky foundation. Anything that might undermine that foundation might change everything.

[wareyin]

Originally Posted by acbytesla

He says he's bored because he doesn't want to think about it logically. I see this over and over again out of Christians. They know that their Christian god cannot be defended on the merits so they run away. They have built the foundation of how they view the world and others on a shaky foundation. Anything that might undermine that foundation might change everything.

And ironically, over and over again they repeatedly whine that they've seen all these questions and points they can't answer too many times, yawn, come up with something new that they can ignore or handwave away!

[p0lka]

Satan doesn't appear that much in the bible.

It's mostly God being 'not very nice' and then blaming it on Satan.

Bit like Brexit.

[wareyin]

Originally Posted by p0lka

Satan doesn't appear that much in the bible.

It's mostly God being 'not very nice' and then blaming it on Satan.

Bit like Brexit.

Brexit is Satan's fault, too??? I knew it!

[Venom]

Originally Posted by Thermal

Hooooooooold on there, Baba Louis. You're flying off on multiple theological tangents.

The main disagreement I would have with your interpretations is treating the bible like a precisely worded technical manual. I'd take it much more loosely, based on internal usages. Genesis says the universe was cranked out in six days, but in Peter it is claimed that a thousand years is a day to god. Even that is still not a mathematical extrapolation. It's a figure of speech, and I take the bible in it's entirety that way.

You see this as a contradiction, as if in a technical manual. I see this as the telephone game across generations, and when finally written down, it was mangled pretty good. Also, these pre-Age of Enlightenment cats spoke metaphorically out of habit. Christ himself was said to have been the Messiah, coming not with a metal sword, but with (*insert jazz hands*) the Sword of the holy Spirit. Nothing was as literal as we read things today. Millennia-past goat herders and fishermen were not stellar historians.

Yeah I look at the Bible as a human book, and as someone who grew up in a Protestant household and culture, I have a decent sense of what regular Christians around me believe and can actually live with. Christian realism, as one theologian called it, is probably far more prevalent than using the Bible as a manual.

And I wouldn't say nothing was as literal as we read it. Scripture doesn't need to be allegorized to death to understand that it's ancient work.

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by Venom

Yeah I look at the Bible as a human book, and as someone who grew up in a Protestant household and culture, I have a decent sense of what regular Christians around me believe and can actually live with. Christian realism, as one theologian called it, is probably far more prevalent than using the Bible as a manual.

And I wouldn't say nothing was as literal as we read it. Scripture doesn't need to be allegorized to death to understand that it's ancient work.

Yup. My grandfather was a non-denom pastor, graduate of Bible College and all that. Not a condemning bone in his body, despite being a strong man and powerfully moving speaker. I think it's a shame that so many atheists have come up against so many really hateful claimed Christians. Most that I come across are sweet people who actively help out and do good.

[acbytesla]

Originally Posted by Thermal

Yup. My grandfather was a non-denom pastor, graduate of Bible College and all that. Not a condemning bone in his body, despite being a strong man and powerfully moving speaker. I think it's a shame that so many atheists have come up against so many really hateful claimed Christians. Most that I come across are sweet people who actively help out and do good.

Most of the Christians I know are too. But I also see horrible Christians everywhere. I see church after church who preach and don't help anyone. They might proselytize but actually help?

My problem is even if you view the bible as allegorical, the God represented in the Bible is awful. You can't get around that God represents the worst traits of humanity not his best.

God is not a being to emulate. Don't do what I do, do what I say.

Let's for argument sake say God is this being that created this vast almost unfathomable universe and everything in it. He would be a being immensely powerful and immensely intelligent. Why would such a being demand worship? This demonstrates insecurity and selfishness. This being has a self esteem problem?

Do we ignore that God has a chosen people? God is racist?
Do we ignore how women are portrayed in the Bible? God is a misogynistic sexist?
He gifts us with a brain and then instructs us not to use it? Seriously?
He tells us to kill our child in the story of Abraham?
He threatens us with eternal torture and says he loves us?

Any being that would do these things would be unworthy of worship.

Sure, I like the idea of an all powerful being that loves me and has my back. But with all that baggage?

I find the awful qualities of Christianity far outweigh the positive merits. Plus the evidence that much of it is true is severely lacking. Your grandfather sounds like a good man. My bet is he would be a good man without the religion.

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by acbytesla

Most of the Christians I know are too. But I also see horrible Christians everywhere. I see church after church who preach and don't help anyone. They might proselytize but actually help?

My problem is even if you view the bible as allegorical, the God represented in the Bible is awful. You can't get around that God represents the worst traits of humanity not his best.

God is not a being to emulate. Don't do what I do, do what I say.

Let's for argument sake say God is this being that created this vast almost unfathomable universe and everything in it. He would be a being immensely powerful and immensely intelligent. Why would such a being demand worship? This demonstrates insecurity and selfishness. This being has a self esteem problem?

Do we ignore that God has a chosen people? God is racist?
Do we ignore how women are portrayed in the Bible? God is a misogynistic sexist?
He gifts us with a brain and then instructs us not to use it? Seriously?
He tells us to kill our child in the story of Abraham?
He threatens us with eternal torture and says he loves us?

Any being that would do these things would be unworthy of worship.

Sure, I like the idea of an all powerful being that loves me and has my back. But with all that baggage?

I hear you, and even largely agree. But in defense of the goat herders in a brutal time: doesn't it make sense that they would interpret their God as crass and brutal as well? Then with Jesus, The New Covenant. A hippy Jew elevating women and the poor and going on about loving your neighbor? Again, for its time, I can see it as the best that would pass muster.

Quote:

I find the awful qualities of Christianity far outweigh the positive merits. Plus the evidence that much of it is true is severely lacking. Your grandfather sounds like a good man. My bet is he would be a good man without the religion.

Thanks man, I like to think so (although there were family stories about him being a bit of a WW2 hell raiser).

Btw, I'm not lobbying for a "don't rag on Thermal because grandpop" routine. I bring him up often because I find him to be such a counterpoint to how a lot of people view judgemental Christians. He was a bit of a freelance pastor because he couldn't get along with the fire and brimstone congregations either. But he was such a rousing speaker that he made the local circuits.

[Thor 2]

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Indeed. I remember one time when I was at church I asked the pastor where in the Bible the story of Satan's fall from heaven was, because I was interested in knowing more about it. He wasn't able to tell me, because that story isn't in the Bible, it's in Paradise Lost.

Well the following is from The Bible:

You were in Eden, the garden of God.
… I ordained and anointed you
as the mighty angelic guardian.
You had access to the holy mountain of God
and walked among the stones of fire.
“You were blameless in all you did
from the day you were created
until the day evil was found in you.
… and you sinned.
So I banished you in disgrace
from the mountain of God.
I expelled you, O mighty guardian,
from your place among the stones of fire.
Your heart was filled with pride
because of all your beauty.
Your wisdom was corrupted
by your love of splendor.
So I threw you to the ground. (Ezekiel 28:13-17)

God somehow cannot seem to be able to make perfect beings that stay perfect. Then when they turn out to be less than perfect it is their own fault of course.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by acbytesla

With theists, they say the devil. And their reasons are always not thought out.. But those answers opens a can of worms for them. God does far worse things in the Bible than the devil and this is God's book not the devil's.

That's because christians are stupid and deluded and don't actually read the bibble, they just swallow the cherry-picked nonsense told by their tithe collector.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Hell Satan doesn't really even exist in the Bible, only in Biblical Fan Fiction.

Satan doesn't do anything in the Bible.

Retracted without a missing beat:

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

God and Satan were sort of both in on that one.

Other blether removed just to highlight the obvious.

Originally Posted by Thermal

Meh...I don't think you can call god evil on these criteria.

Even if you accept your premise - which I personally think is a load of cobblers, but nice try, your heart's not in it like it is with christians - you can't escape the fact that the sky-daddy says this:

Quote:

You are not to bow down in worship of any images of other gods, for I am the Eternal your God. I am jealous for worship, bringing punishment on you and your children to come, even down to your great-grandchildren, to whoever hates Me.

Baby J didn't countermand that, and considering his own statement that I and the Father are one, I'm not gonna cut much slack to that character.

The bible's like Clive Cussler on valium.

The whole thing about Jesus' death is dumber than **** too. The wankers have it on their clothes, their cars (more like trucks in USA) and even hold signs with it: "Jesus died for us!"

Uhhh, no. He spent two days dead, in the certain knowledge that he was going back to daddy for an eternal life of picking which dead christian he wants to bonk.

Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topi...tion-To-Father

Originally Posted by acbytesla

You're kidding...right? Even if we accept that death is no biggie,, the God of the Bible not only kills people, he tortures them for eternity.

I like to do chalk drawings on the footpath of Noah's Ark, which the churches inexplicably sell as a kids' story. All the animals, I guess.

My drawings highlight the babies outside of Noah's family drowning.

Originally Posted by xjx388

To answer the question, you have to know what “evil” actually is.

That's actually a lot easier than it looks, even though it might look like going all Godwin. Stalin and Hitler were evil, and I've never met anyone other than insane new-age Nazis who disagree.

God's own words show he's worse.

[arthwollipot]

Originally Posted by Thor 2

(Ezekiel 28:13-17)

Yeah but that's pretty much all you get. Paradise Lost goes into a whole lot more detail.

Originally Posted by Thor 2

God somehow cannot seem to be able to make perfect beings that stay perfect. Then when they turn out to be less than perfect it is their own fault of course.

Except for all those angels that didn't follow Satan. There's a whole Host of them, remember?

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by acbytesla

He says he's bored because he doesn't want to think about it logically. I see this over and over again out of Christians. They know that their Christian god cannot be defended on the merits so they run away. They have built the foundation of how they view the world and others on a shaky foundation. Anything that might undermine that foundation might change everything.

I'm bored because "God is more evil than Satan" has been done to death, and atheists seem unable to move past it to anything new or interesting. And also unable to let it ride. Every few months, we get, "hey remember how we all agree that God is more evil than Satan? We all still agree about that, right?"

Is this really all atheists have going on? Regular repetitions of the liturgy, to keep the flock from straying?

[acbytesla]

Originally Posted by theprestige

I'm bored because "God is more evil than Satan" has been done to death, and atheists seem unable to move past it to anything new or interesting. And also unable to let it ride. Every few months, we get, "hey remember how we all agree that God is more evil than Satan? We all still agree about that, right?"

Is this really all atheists have going on? Regular repetitions of the liturgy, to keep the flock from straying?

That's funny. I don't see atheists meeting every Sunday putting money into the collection plate. There aren't 380,000 places of assembly where atheist speakers pump out the same message. It's not a racket that brings in a half a trillion to a trillion dollars each year.

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by acbytesla

That's funny. I don't see atheists meeting every Sunday putting money into the collection plate. There aren't 380,000 places of assembly where atheist speakers pump out the same message. It's not a racket that brings in a half a trillion to a trillion dollars each year.

No they just gather here every day and chew over the same old catechism.

[arthwollipot]

False equivocation noted.

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

False equivocation noted.

By the rule of doubled negatives, if I'm equovocating falsely I must be telling the truth.

Anyway do you really imagine you're introducing anything new to this crowd, with your idea* that God is more evil than Satan?

---
*Not really your idea at all ; it had been done to death before you joined the forum. Did you really think you'd discovered something new to other atheists?

[arthwollipot]

Originally Posted by theprestige

By the rule of doubled negatives, if I'm equovocating falsely I must be telling the truth.

Wrong word. Sorry, I'm very tired right now. I meant that I have noted that you are falsely drawing equivalence between atheism and religion. "Regular repetitions of the liturgy, to keep the flock from straying" and "chew over the same old catechism". Since you know as well as I do that atheism is not a religion, there is no liturgy, no flock and no catechism, I am drawing attention to the fallacious rhetorical trick that you are trying to not-so-subtly employ.

[acbytesla]

Originally Posted by theprestige

By the rule of doubled negatives, if I'm equovocating falsely I must be telling the truth.

Anyway do you really imagine you're introducing anything new to this crowd, with your idea* that God is more evil than Satan?

---
*Not really your idea at all ; it had been done to death before you joined the forum. Did you really think you'd discovered something new to other atheists?

I can only evaluate scripture since I'm no longer attending Church every Sunday.

Should keep in mind Prestige that atheists don't have tenets. We don't make rules that people should obey. We don’t claim moral superiority.

I just think it's quite interesting that Christians say that God is perfect and he loves us. Based on what I ask?

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by theprestige

*Not really your idea at all ; it had been done to death before you joined the forum. Did you really think you'd discovered something new to other atheists?

A typical load of fetid dingo's kidneys from someone drenched in the art.

If we only discussed topics with new information, we could get rid of 97% of all threads.

[xjx388]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

That's actually a lot easier than it looks, even though it might look like going all Godwin. Stalin and Hitler were evil, and I've never met anyone other than insane new-age Nazis who disagree.

God's own words show he's worse.

You are using a human-frame-of-reference definition of evil. And sure, them dudes was evil.

But, if you are going to judge the god of the Bible, that frame of reference isn’t going to work. God is the creator of heaven and earth, the source of all good. In that particular piece of fiction, anyway. He’s the hero of the story, so to speak. He can’t be evil. Evil, in that book, is to turn away from God.

In fiction, we talk about suspending disbelief. Willy Wonka is a benevolent, whimsical soul -not a psychopath who gets off on torturing kids. In religion, they call suspending disbelief “faith.” So, through faith, God is good.

The OP might be a fun topic for people with no faith who can use whatever frame of reference they want to. But for believers, it’s never ever going to be a persuasive argument because that’s their whole worldview.

So I don’t really see the point?

[acbytesla]

Originally Posted by xjx388

You are using a human-frame-of-reference definition of evil. And sure, them dudes was evil.

But, if you are going to judge the god of the Bible, that frame of reference isn’t going to work. God is the creator of heaven and earth, the source of all good. In that particular piece of fiction, anyway. He’s the hero of the story, so to speak. He can’t be evil. Evil, in that book, is to turn away from God.

In fiction, we talk about suspending disbelief. Willy Wonka is a benevolent, whimsical soul -not a psychopath who gets off on torturing kids. In religion, they call suspending disbelief “faith.” So, through faith, God is good.

The OP might be a fun topic for people with no faith who can use whatever frame of reference they want to. But for believers, it’s never ever going to be a persuasive argument because that’s their whole worldview.

So I don’t really see the point?

This is nonsense since we read books and assess who the characters are. Who the villains and the heroes are. Even if it's not clear we make assessments.

The idea that we can't use our own frame of reference is just hand waving away the terrible acts attributed to God.

I can say that if God told me
to kill all the members of a neighboring tribe except the virgin girls that he's awful.
That if he told me to make them my slaves he's awful.
That I could sell my daughters into bondage he's awful.

I don't need to be a wizard or a king to tell me Voldemort and Sauron to know they are bad.


As for Willy Wonka we're not sure about him until the end of the story.

Christians don't view it as a work of fiction. They attempt to run their lives and the lives of others by it.

[psionl0]

How can anybody judge God or the devil when no two passages in the bible agree with each other?

For example, John 3:17 says "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him". This would appear to negate all of the judgey sections (although some translations of this verse have it as "the world MIGHT be saved").

As for all of those horror OT laws, it is not even established that God made those laws directly or just gave Moses the authority to make the laws.

[dann]

Originally Posted by psionl0

How can anybody judge God or the devil when no two passages in the bible agree with each other?

The same way you can judge Ariel and Ursula or Mickey Mouse and Black Pete. It's a little childish to go looking for inconsistencies.

[dann]

Originally Posted by acbytesla

Christians don't view it as a work of fiction. They attempt to run their lives and the lives of others by it.

No, I don't think most of them do. To the 'Team Normal' of Christians, it's an idea that they take comfort in, and that idea is not based on any literal reading of the Bible.
Anyway, I heard that Netflix is planning a sequel to be released in late 2023.

[dann]

Originally Posted by xjx388

... that’s their whole worldview.

Unless they are locked up somewhere, nobody is religious 24/7.

[acbytesla]

Originally Posted by psionl0

How can anybody judge God or the devil when no two passages in the bible agree with each other?

For example, John 3:17 says "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him". This would appear to negate all of the judgey sections (although some translations of this verse have it as "the world MIGHT be saved")

This doesn't dismiss the flood and every other awful thing God did. It doesn't dismiss the flood or killing the firstborn. It doesn't dismiss slavery.. And it doesn't dismiss condemning half the population to eternal torture. You're saying he's a good guy for not condemning us all? Gee thanks. And God makes the rules. If he wants to forgive man, why does he have to send his son to suffer for a few hours?

Originally Posted by psionl0

As for all of those horror OT laws, it is not even established that God made those laws directly or just gave Moses the authority to make the laws.

What difference does it make? God put him in power did he not?

[Vixen]

They are two sides of the same coin. You might have noticed the dualistic nature of life. Night and day, birth and death, etc. Lucifer is according to Genesis a fallen angel who tried to lead a rebellion against God and was expelled from heaven. Jesus, too, is said to have been a round since the start as a High Priest. In Matthew, he states he saw Lucifer fall from the sky. Lucifer is depicted as an extremely beautiful and very bright (as in light) angel who tries to tempt people away into materialism. Lucifer owns the world, as he told Jesus when he was fasting int he desert. Lucifer, according to the Bible, told Jesus that if only Jesus would worship him, the world would be his. He tried to tempt Jesus into turning stone into bread and jeered that if he threw himself off the rocks, angels would come to pick him up. So that is the biblical tale of how Jesus resisted temptation. Theologist Martin Luther interpreted this as the dual nature of man: we can choose to ride the evil beast or the good one. Just as there are no depths to human evil, likewise, being the opposite means there are no heights to which you cannot attain by choosing the good way.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by Vixen

They are two sides of the same coin. You might have noticed the dualistic nature of life. Night and day, birth and death, etc. Lucifer is according to Genesis a fallen angel who tried to lead a rebellion against God and was expelled from heaven. Jesus, too, is said to have been a round since the start as a High Priest. In Matthew, he states he saw Lucifer fall from the sky. Lucifer is depicted as an extremely beautiful and very bright (as in light) angel who tries to tempt people away into materialism. Lucifer owns the world, as he told Jesus when he was fasting int he desert. Lucifer, according to the Bible, told Jesus that if only Jesus would worship him, the world would be his. He tried to tempt Jesus into turning stone into bread and jeered that if he threw himself off the rocks, angels would come to pick him up. So that is the biblical tale of how Jesus resisted temptation. Theologist Martin Luther interpreted this as the dual nature of man: we can choose to ride the evil beast or the good one. Just as there are no depths to human evil, likewise, being the opposite means there are no heights to which you cannot attain by choosing the good way.

You must have a very interesting bible.

[Carlotta]

This game is boring! I don't wanna play! YOU have to stop NAOW!!!

[theprestige]

Well it is a boring game. I'm not saying you have to stop playing. I'm just wondering why it's the only game atheists have, and why they can't stop playing it.

Doesn't it ever get old, rediscovering the same basic insights every fledgling atheist discovers?

[p0lka]

Originally Posted by theprestige

Well it is a boring game. I'm not saying you have to stop playing. I'm just wondering why it's the only game atheists have, and why they can't stop playing it.

Doesn't it ever get old, rediscovering the same basic insights every fledgling atheist discovers?

Boring? On the contrary. It is endlessly fascinating watching theists struggle with those basic insights.