Raise your hand if you think the Secret Service "lost" the texts for January 5 & 6. - Page 2

Stacyhs · 21st July 2022, 03:06 PM

It would not surprise me one bit that some USSS members are hardened Trump supporters.

Quote:

Two top members of former President Donald Trump's personal security detail were "very, very close" to Trump and are "viewed as being aligned" with him, said Carol Leonnig, a long-time investigative reporter at The Washington Post.

Leonnig is the author of the book "Zero Fail: The Rise and Fall of the Secret Service" and co-author of "I Alone Can Fix It," which delves into Trump's final year as president.

Quote:

"There was a very large contingent of Donald Trump's detail, who were personally cheering for Biden to fail, and some of them even took to their personal media accounts to cheer on the insurrection and the individuals riding up to the Capitol as patriots," Leonnig said. "That is problematic."

"I'm not saying that Tony Ornato or Bobby Engel did that, but they are viewed as being aligned with Donald Trump, which cuts against them," she added.

Quote:

Leonnig told MSNBC that Ornato was viewed as "so pro-Trump" that he was suspected by one of former Vice President Mike Pence's top aides as someone who would "try to whisk Vice President Pence away from the Capitol at a critical moment."

Quote:

"Bobby Engel and Tony Ornato were very, very close to President Trump, and some people accuse them of at times being enablers, and yes-men of the President," Leonnig said. "Particularly Tony Ornato."

She described them as "people who wanted to do what he wanted and see him pleased," adding that they frustrated other agents who were more focused on "security or being independent or good planning."

"So both of these individuals lose a little credibility because of how closely they have been seen as aligned to Donald Trump," Leonnig added.

https://www.businessinsider.com/trum...-author-2022-6

The Great Zaganza · 21st July 2022, 03:09 PM

Originally Posted by stanfr

And now the Inspector General is telling the SS to stop its investigation...the plot thickens.

I'd bet my right arm there are some major bombshells in those texts, I hope they are recovered!

That would have depended entirely on how long the riot lasted (Trump did his best to extend it) and how safe the SS deemed the Capitol to be afterwards.
A pro-trump SS Detail could have always claimed that Pence had to stay away for security reasons.

Stacyhs · 21st July 2022, 03:21 PM

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

That would have depended entirely on how long the riot lasted (Trump did his best to extend it) and how safe the SS deemed the Capitol to be afterwards.
A pro-trump SS Detail could have always claimed that Pence had to stay away for security reasons.

I think you meant to reply to me?

Craig4 · 22nd July 2022, 01:02 PM

https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/22/polit...ges/index.html

Oh look. The Secret Service found the messages from 10 people. This should be good.

Segnosaur · 22nd July 2022, 01:17 PM

Originally Posted by Craig4

https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/22/polit...ges/index.html

Oh look. The Secret Service found the messages from 10 people. This should be good.

If I understand correctly, according to the article, they said they found 'Metadata'.... basically information that shows when a message was sent and to whom, but nothing about the content of the text itself.

So they could have been messages about "did you see that football game last week?" or they could be messages about "when should we turn Pence over to the mob?"

BobTheCoward · 23rd July 2022, 03:28 AM

Between Hillary Clinton under Obama, and now Biden, democratic administrations have a real problem with record retention.

Lurch · 23rd July 2022, 04:48 AM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

Between Hillary Clinton under Obama, and now Biden, democratic administrations have a real problem with record retention.

You conveniently overlook the practice of the prolapsed orange anus to tear up docs, requiring staffers to tape them back together, and the flushing of papers down the bog. Not to mention the pilfering of boxes of records from the WH upon the creature's departure.

BobTheCoward · 23rd July 2022, 05:46 AM

Originally Posted by Lurch

You conveniently overlook the practice of the prolapsed orange anus to tear up docs, requiring staffers to tape them back together, and the flushing of papers down the bog. Not to mention the pilfering of boxes of records from the WH upon the creature's departure.

Can I not say someone has a drug problem if there are others with a worse problem?

Segnosaur · 23rd July 2022, 06:08 AM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

Between Hillary Clinton under Obama, and now Biden, democratic administrations have a real problem with record retention.

Biden was not sworn in until late January 2021. The "device replacement" program that the secret service claims resulted in the text deletions began before he was sworn in.

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BobTheCoward · 23rd July 2022, 06:28 AM

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

Biden was not sworn in until late January 2021. The "device replacement" program that the secret service claims resulted in the text deletions began before he was sworn in.

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But the messages were deleted some time between Jan 6 and an inspector general email in February. If it happened Jan 21 or later, that is on Biden.

Segnosaur · 23rd July 2022, 06:38 AM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

But the messages were deleted some time between Jan 6 and an inspector general email in February. If it happened Jan 21 or later, that is on Biden.

You will have to excuse me if I think an incoming president won't have complete control over his administration in the first few weeks of his term (before he manages to get any nominations confirmed). Transitions take weeks if not months to complete. His head of Homeland security wasn't even sworn in until February.

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Reformed Offlian · 23rd July 2022, 06:42 AM

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

You will have to excuse me if I think an incoming president won't have complete control over his administration in the first few weeks of his term (before he manages to get any nominations confirmed). Transitions take weeks if not months to complete. His head of Homeland security wasn't even sworn in until February.

Especially transitions where the outgoing administration isn't actually cooperating with the process.

BobTheCoward · 23rd July 2022, 07:54 AM

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

You will have to excuse me if I think an incoming president won't have complete control over his administration in the first few weeks of his term (before he manages to get any nominations confirmed). Transitions take weeks if not months to complete. His head of Homeland security wasn't even sworn in until February.

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I guess the buck stops somewhere else

Silly Green Monkey · 23rd July 2022, 08:10 AM

The buck's not even real, Clinton didn't mishandle classified documents. Counterfeit's in the SS purview----wait, they're the ones trying to hide the evidence (from Biden). But sure, it's all a Democrat's fault.

Craig4 · 23rd July 2022, 08:43 AM

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

If I understand correctly, according to the article, they said they found 'Metadata'.... basically information that shows when a message was sent and to whom, but nothing about the content of the text itself.

So they could have been messages about "did you see that football game last week?" or they could be messages about "when should we turn Pence over to the mob?"

That's the start. I expect the messages will be "found".

Ernie M · 23rd July 2022, 09:19 PM

Originally Posted by Jungle Jim

Here is an update from yesterday - https://www.mysuncoast.com/2022/07/1...deleted-texts/

I found this statement particularly interesting: "Florida Rep. Stephanie Murphy, a Democratic member of the Jan 6. panel, said the Secret Service acknowledged the erasure in a letter Tuesday, detailing how agency phones were migrated to a new system in the weeks after the 2021 attack.

Murphy said the agency left it up to individual agents to decide what electronic records to keep and what to delete during the process."

Some issues surrounding the preservation of data, such as text messages, pics on cellphones:

Ludicrous to leave it up to individual Secret Service agents to save cellphone data

You don't tell and let the user (Secret Service) agents do a backup. The IT department should get the devices and back them up (to the Cloud?), then (the IT dept.) should restore data to a new (cellphone) device, and give said new device to the user (Secret Service agent).

Cellphones & data/texts should've been immediately marked with a "Legal Hold"

If there was any inkling that lawyers are interested in the data, and to prevent data from being wiped, the cellphones should've been marked with a "Legal Hold" and sent (the cellphones) to a secure location like Iron Mountain. This also holds true from a historical perspective; what took place on (and around) January 6, 2021 at the U.S. Capitol is of historical significance.

Texts (data) and the cellphones should've been sent to a secure location like Iron Mountain

Texts (all data) and cellphones should've been preserved by the Secret Service, period. A legal hold should've been placed on the data/texts/cellphones on January 6th, 2021, period.

Whoever was in charge of the cellphones and/or other devices should've saved the text messages/data and the actual cellphones, and the Secret Service shouldn't have even needed a letter from Congress to tell them to preserve the data, and the letter should've said to preserve the devices as well. It should've been standard operating procedure to have backups and preserve the cellphones.

Backups should've been kept and retained, and the original devices (cellphones) should have been physically sent—untouched, do nothing to them but send them off—to a secure location like Iron Mountain.

Missing texts due to migration of data and/or devices doesn't pass the smell test.

Upchurch · 24th July 2022, 09:06 AM

Originally Posted by Ernie M

Missing texts due to migration of data and/or devices doesn't pass the smell test.

Hanlon’s Razor, but I’m inclined to agree with you regardless. Either way, someone is responsible and deserves to get their career flushed down the toilet.

Ernie M · 24th July 2022, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by Upchurch

Originally Posted by Ernie M

Missing texts due to migration of data and/or devices doesn't pass the smell test.

Hanlon’s Razor, but I’m inclined to agree with you regardless. Either way, someone is responsible and deserves to get their career flushed down the toilet.

This appears it could be be Hanlon's Razor.

Hanlon's razor reads "never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

But to be clear, it would be practically impossible for the texts to be erased and gone due to an unintended or unknowing result from a "device replacement program." Those 'missing' texts are part of federal government record and should've been preserved according to government policies and procedures.

Did stupidity or incompetence result in the erased text messages? Or was it bad intentions? I don't know, but those 'missing' text messages—they should've been preserved. I get the sense this will turn out that a number of people deserve to get their careers flushed down the toilet.

Delphic Oracle · 24th July 2022, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by Ernie M

This appears it could be be Hanlon's Razor.

Hanlon's razor reads "never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

But to be clear, it would be practically impossible for the texts to be erased and gone due to an unintended or unknowing result from a "device replacement program." Those 'missing' texts are part of federal government record and should've been preserved according to government policies and procedures.

Did stupidity or incompetence result in the erased text messages? Or was it bad intentions? I don't know, but those 'missing' text messages—they should've been preserved. I get the sense this will turn out that a number of people deserve to get their careers flushed down the toilet.

I'm willing to accept incompetence as plausible if all messages from those devices are gone.

If it is just the ones from the 5th and 6th, that's just too perfect to be an accident or blunder.

Stacyhs · 24th July 2022, 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle

I'm willing to accept incompetence as plausible if all messages from those devices are gone.

If it is just the ones from the 5th and 6th, that's just too perfect to be an accident or blunder.

I agree.

Ernie M · 24th July 2022, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle

I'm willing to accept incompetence as plausible if all messages from those devices are gone.

If it is just the ones from the 5th and 6th, that's just too perfect to be an accident or blunder.

I agree, too.

But whatever led to the "erased" texts, the texts should've been archived and backed up as part of federal government record. Those texts should be public record.

The "erased" text situation also brings up the issue of plausible deniability, because without those texts, which is not publicly known what they contain, that could give senior officials the ability to deny knowledge of or responsibility for any damnable actions committed by members of their organizational hierarchy. (I paraphrased most of that sentence from Wikipedia. Not that Wikipedia is always right or great, but it was descriptive of my point of without those texts, it's harder to know who knew what and when, and the context and actions that took place before, during, and after.)

Ladewig · 24th July 2022, 05:39 PM

Poll needs more ~~cowbell~~ Planet X.

I’ve heard people speculate that TFG asked a USSS agent for a cell phone to ensure that the text could not be tracked back to him. I’m doubtful.

Ernie M · 2nd August 2022, 03:44 PM

Originally Posted by Craig4

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

If I understand correctly, according to the article, they said they found 'Metadata'.... basically information that shows when a message was sent and to whom, but nothing about the content of the text itself.

So they could have been messages about "did you see that football game last week?" or they could be messages about "when should we turn Pence over to the mob?"

That's the start. I expect the messages will be "found".

No. I get the sense that the text messages will not be "found."

Regarding the United States Secret Service cellphones and text messages and corresponding data:

If the USSS was run like many US companies, I infer the USSS cellphones and the data such as text messages, computers, and cellphones, should've been put on a legal hold. The legal hold should've been done internally, (I allege) likely by the USSS legal team or the Department of Homeland Security legal team (which the USSS is under).

The legal hold for the USSS cellphones/data/text messages should've been done 1) in anticipation of an imminent legal case, 2) (I allege) to be in compliance whereas the work devices are subject to the Presidential Records Act (PRA) of 1978 which is a federal records-keeping law, and 3) because of the historical significance of events on and around January 6, 2021.

I allege the legal hold should've instructed the USSS not to delete electronically stored information or discard paper documents relevant to January 6.

I allege the legal hold for the USSS cellphones/data/text messages/computers should've happened on January 6, 2021. I believe the cellphones should've been shut off, nothing deleted, and all devices sent to a secure location like Iron Mountain. The idea is to preserve the data, so as not to change anything or delete anything...shut the cellphones off and turn them in.

I allege that the USSS cellphones, computers, which include but may not necessarily be limited to all data/text messages/emails/phone call logs should've been taken from the USSS agents, and sent to a secure location like Iron Mountain.

Also, I hypothesize that the delay in notification of the USSS "erased" texts meant data could've been overwritten on storage devices not directly accessible in person.

The idea is to preserve the actual USSS cellphones on January 6, 2021.

In addition to missing USSS text messages:
Carol D. Leonnig and Maria Sacchetti reported on 28 July 2022 for The Washington Post that "Jan. 6 texts missing for Trump Homeland Security’s Wolf and Cuccinelli"

now, Tuesday, 02 Aug 2022, CNN reported that:
TEXT MESSAGES HAVE BEEN WIPED FOR KEY TRUMP PENTAGON OFFICIALS

CNN article titled "First on CNN: Jan. 6 text messages wiped from phones of key Trump Pentagon officials," CNN reported "The Defense Department wiped the phones of top departing DOD and Army officials at the end of the Trump administration, deleting any texts from key witnesses to events surrounding the January 6, 2021, attack on the US Capitol, according to court filings."

I get the sense All those records, data, computers and cellphones should've been place on legal hold and preserved and sent to a secure location like Iron Mountain on January 6, 2021.

CNN reported that the Defense Department wiped the phones of top departing DOD and Army officials. So much for the Presidential Records Act (PRA) of 1978.

Ernie M · 2nd August 2022, 05:01 PM

The "About" statement on the American Oversight website:

"American Oversight is a nonpartisan, nonprofit watchdog that uses public records requests backed by litigation to fight corruption, drive accountability, and defend democracy. We believe transparency is a critical tool to promote integrity in government and to protect justice, truth, and the rule of law."

CNN reported that "The acknowledgment that the phones from the Pentagon officials had been wiped was first revealed in a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit American Oversight brought against the Defense Department and the Army. The watchdog group is seeking January 6 records from former acting Secretary of Defense Chris Miller, former chief of staff Kash Patel, and former Secretary of the Army Ryan McCarthy, among other prominent Pentagon officials -- having filed initial FOIA requests just a few days after the Capitol attack."

From CNN source:
By Tierney Sneed and Zachary Cohen. "First on CNN: Jan. 6 text messages wiped from phones of key Trump Pentagon officials." CNN. 02 Aug 2022.

CORed · 4th August 2022, 07:22 AM

Originally Posted by Ernie M

This appears it could be be Hanlon's Razor.

Hanlon's razor reads "never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

But to be clear, it would be practically impossible for the texts to be erased and gone due to an unintended or unknowing result from a "device replacement program." Those 'missing' texts are part of federal government record and should've been preserved according to government policies and procedures.

Did stupidity or incompetence result in the erased text messages? Or was it bad intentions? I don't know, but those 'missing' text messages—they should've been preserved. I get the sense this will turn out that a number of people deserve to get their careers flushed down the toilet.

Hanlon's razor does not apply to anything involving Trump. In that case, it's always a mixture of evil and stupidity.

Ladewig · 4th August 2022, 02:33 PM

Originally Posted by CORed

Hanlon's razor does not apply to anything involving Trump. In that case, it's always a mixture of evil and stupidity.

We know Occam’s and Hanson’s, maybe we should have a thread inviting members to speculate what Trump’s Razor should be.

Stacyhs · 4th August 2022, 03:16 PM

Originally Posted by Ladewig

We know Occam’s and Hanson’s, maybe we should have a thread inviting members to speculate what Trump’s Razor should be.

Never attribute to incompetence that which is adequately explained by malice.

Beelzebuddy · 4th August 2022, 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by Ladewig

We know Occam’s and Hanson’s, maybe we should have a thread inviting members to speculate what Trump’s Razor should be.

Every accusation is a confession.

Crazy Chainsaw · 4th August 2022, 03:43 PM

Originally Posted by Ladewig

We know Occam’s and Hanson’s, maybe we should have a thread inviting members to speculate what Trump’s Razor should be.

Don't hire Idiots for an Insurrection and Cover-up if you don't want too do the Time.

Stacyhs · 4th August 2022, 03:48 PM

Trump's Razor: Every accusation is a confession.

Ladewig · 4th August 2022, 04:58 PM

Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy

Every accusation is a confession.

What’s uncanny is how prescient he was in attacking #44 by saying Obama plays too much golf, spends too much on travel, never reads his security briefings, has too much staff turnover, etc.

Stacyhs · 4th August 2022, 07:00 PM

Originally Posted by Ladewig

What’s uncanny is how prescient he was in attacking #44 by saying Obama plays too much golf, spends too much on travel, never reads his security briefings, has too much staff turnover, etc.

Trump would be "too busy to play golf".

kevbo · 4th August 2022, 11:08 PM

Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy

Every accusation is a confession.

And has been shown to be true time and time again.

Yes, of course it was an honest mistake.	1	2.04%
Yes, The Secret Service is upstanding.	0	0%
I'm not sure. I want to give them the benefit of the doubt.	2	4.08%
Ordinarily, I would trust them. But not so sure any more.	16	32.65%
Hell no, Trump corrupts everything.	30	61.22%
Voters: 49. You may not vote on this poll

21st July 2022, 03:09 PM	#42
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 18,372	Originally Posted by stanfr And now the Inspector General is telling the SS to stop its investigation...the plot thickens. I'd bet my right arm there are some major bombshells in those texts, I hope they are recovered! That would have depended entirely on how long the riot lasted (Trump did his best to extend it) and how safe the SS deemed the Capitol to be afterwards. A pro-trump SS Detail could have always claimed that Pence had to stay away for security reasons.
	__________________ "When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me." - Emo Philips

22nd July 2022, 01:17 PM	#45
Segnosaur Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 18,956	Originally Posted by Craig4 https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/22/polit...ges/index.html Oh look. The Secret Service found the messages from 10 people. This should be good. If I understand correctly, according to the article, they said they found 'Metadata'.... basically information that shows when a message was sent and to whom, but nothing about the content of the text itself. So they could have been messages about "did you see that football game last week?" or they could be messages about "when should we turn Pence over to the mob?"
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot

23rd July 2022, 03:28 AM	#46
BobTheCoward Suspended Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 22,512	Between Hillary Clinton under Obama, and now Biden, democratic administrations have a real problem with record retention.
BobTheCoward Suspended Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 22,512

23rd July 2022, 05:46 AM	#48
BobTheCoward Suspended Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 22,512	Originally Posted by Lurch You conveniently overlook the practice of the prolapsed orange anus to tear up docs, requiring staffers to tape them back together, and the flushing of papers down the bog. Not to mention the pilfering of boxes of records from the WH upon the creature's departure. Can I not say someone has a drug problem if there are others with a worse problem?
BobTheCoward Suspended Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 22,512

21st July 2022, 03:06 PM	#41
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 26,068	It would not surprise me one bit that some USSS members are hardened Trump supporters. Quote: Two top members of former President Donald Trump's personal security detail were "very, very close" to Trump and are "viewed as being aligned" with him, said Carol Leonnig, a long-time investigative reporter at The Washington Post. Leonnig is the author of the book "Zero Fail: The Rise and Fall of the Secret Service" and co-author of "I Alone Can Fix It," which delves into Trump's final year as president. Quote: "There was a very large contingent of Donald Trump's detail, who were personally cheering for Biden to fail, and some of them even took to their personal media accounts to cheer on the insurrection and the individuals riding up to the Capitol as patriots," Leonnig said. "That is problematic." "I'm not saying that Tony Ornato or Bobby Engel did that, but they are viewed as being aligned with Donald Trump, which cuts against them," she added. Quote: Leonnig told MSNBC that Ornato was viewed as "so pro-Trump" that he was suspected by one of former Vice President Mike Pence's top aides as someone who would "try to whisk Vice President Pence away from the Capitol at a critical moment." Quote: "Bobby Engel and Tony Ornato were very, very close to President Trump, and some people accuse them of at times being enablers, and yes-men of the President," Leonnig said. "Particularly Tony Ornato." She described them as "people who wanted to do what he wanted and see him pleased," adding that they frustrated other agents who were more focused on "security or being independent or good planning." "So both of these individuals lose a little credibility because of how closely they have been seen as aligned to Donald Trump," Leonnig added. https://www.businessinsider.com/trum...-author-2022-6

21st July 2022, 03:21 PM	#43
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 26,068	Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza That would have depended entirely on how long the riot lasted (Trump did his best to extend it) and how safe the SS deemed the Capitol to be afterwards. A pro-trump SS Detail could have always claimed that Pence had to stay away for security reasons. I think you meant to reply to me?

22nd July 2022, 01:02 PM	#44
Craig4 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: I live in a swamp Posts: 25,719	https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/22/polit...ges/index.html Oh look. The Secret Service found the messages from 10 people. This should be good.
	__________________ Fight like a Ukrainian.

23rd July 2022, 04:48 AM	#47
Lurch Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: Ottawa Posts: 2,217	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward Between Hillary Clinton under Obama, and now Biden, democratic administrations have a real problem with record retention. You conveniently overlook the practice of the prolapsed orange anus to tear up docs, requiring staffers to tape them back together, and the flushing of papers down the bog. Not to mention the pilfering of boxes of records from the WH upon the creature's departure.

23rd July 2022, 06:08 AM	#49
Segnosaur Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 18,956	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward Between Hillary Clinton under Obama, and now Biden, democratic administrations have a real problem with record retention. Biden was not sworn in until late January 2021. The "device replacement" program that the secret service claims resulted in the text deletions began before he was sworn in. Sent from my moto e using Tapatalk
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot

23rd July 2022, 06:28 AM	#50
BobTheCoward Suspended Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 22,512	Originally Posted by Segnosaur Biden was not sworn in until late January 2021. The "device replacement" program that the secret service claims resulted in the text deletions began before he was sworn in. Sent from my moto e using Tapatalk But the messages were deleted some time between Jan 6 and an inspector general email in February. If it happened Jan 21 or later, that is on Biden.
BobTheCoward Suspended Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 22,512

23rd July 2022, 06:38 AM	#51
Segnosaur Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 18,956	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward But the messages were deleted some time between Jan 6 and an inspector general email in February. If it happened Jan 21 or later, that is on Biden. You will have to excuse me if I think an incoming president won't have complete control over his administration in the first few weeks of his term (before he manages to get any nominations confirmed). Transitions take weeks if not months to complete. His head of Homeland security wasn't even sworn in until February. Sent from my moto e using Tapatalk
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot

23rd July 2022, 06:42 AM	#52
Reformed Offlian Muse Join Date: Apr 2020 Location: USA Posts: 959	Originally Posted by Segnosaur You will have to excuse me if I think an incoming president won't have complete control over his administration in the first few weeks of his term (before he manages to get any nominations confirmed). Transitions take weeks if not months to complete. His head of Homeland security wasn't even sworn in until February. Especially transitions where the outgoing administration isn't actually cooperating with the process.

23rd July 2022, 07:54 AM	#53
BobTheCoward Suspended Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 22,512	Originally Posted by Segnosaur You will have to excuse me if I think an incoming president won't have complete control over his administration in the first few weeks of his term (before he manages to get any nominations confirmed). Transitions take weeks if not months to complete. His head of Homeland security wasn't even sworn in until February. Sent from my moto e using Tapatalk I guess the buck stops somewhere else
BobTheCoward Suspended Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 22,512

23rd July 2022, 08:10 AM	#54
Silly Green Monkey Cowardly Lurking in the Shadows of Greatness Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,443	The buck's not even real, Clinton didn't mishandle classified documents. Counterfeit's in the SS purview----wait, they're the ones trying to hide the evidence (from Biden). But sure, it's all a Democrat's fault.
	__________________ Normal is just a stereotype.

23rd July 2022, 08:43 AM	#55
Craig4 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: I live in a swamp Posts: 25,719	Originally Posted by Segnosaur If I understand correctly, according to the article, they said they found 'Metadata'.... basically information that shows when a message was sent and to whom, but nothing about the content of the text itself. So they could have been messages about "did you see that football game last week?" or they could be messages about "when should we turn Pence over to the mob?" That's the start. I expect the messages will be "found".
	__________________ Fight like a Ukrainian.

23rd July 2022, 09:19 PM	#56
Ernie M Muse Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 984	Originally Posted by Jungle Jim Here is an update from yesterday - https://www.mysuncoast.com/2022/07/1...deleted-texts/ I found this statement particularly interesting: "Florida Rep. Stephanie Murphy, a Democratic member of the Jan 6. panel, said the Secret Service acknowledged the erasure in a letter Tuesday, detailing how agency phones were migrated to a new system in the weeks after the 2021 attack. Murphy said the agency left it up to individual agents to decide what electronic records to keep and what to delete during the process." Some issues surrounding the preservation of data, such as text messages, pics on cellphones: Ludicrous to leave it up to individual Secret Service agents to save cellphone data You don't tell and let the user (Secret Service) agents do a backup. The IT department should get the devices and back them up (to the Cloud?), then (the IT dept.) should restore data to a new (cellphone) device, and give said new device to the user (Secret Service agent). Cellphones & data/texts should've been immediately marked with a "Legal Hold" If there was any inkling that lawyers are interested in the data, and to prevent data from being wiped, the cellphones should've been marked with a "Legal Hold" and sent (the cellphones) to a secure location like Iron Mountain. This also holds true from a historical perspective; what took place on (and around) January 6, 2021 at the U.S. Capitol is of historical significance. Texts (data) and the cellphones should've been sent to a secure location like Iron Mountain Texts (all data) and cellphones should've been preserved by the Secret Service, period. A legal hold should've been placed on the data/texts/cellphones on January 6th, 2021, period. Whoever was in charge of the cellphones and/or other devices should've saved the text messages/data and the actual cellphones, and the Secret Service shouldn't have even needed a letter from Congress to tell them to preserve the data, and the letter should've said to preserve the devices as well. It should've been standard operating procedure to have backups and preserve the cellphones. Backups should've been kept and retained, and the original devices (cellphones) should have been physically sent—untouched, do nothing to them but send them off—to a secure location like Iron Mountain. Missing texts due to migration of data and/or devices doesn't pass the smell test.
Ernie M Muse Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 984	__________________ paranormalstateillustrated.com Taking a close look at what you see and hear on a "Real Life. Drama." TV series.

24th July 2022, 09:06 AM	#57
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 33,059	Originally Posted by Ernie M Missing texts due to migration of data and/or devices doesn't pass the smell test. Hanlon’s Razor, but I’m inclined to agree with you regardless. Either way, someone is responsible and deserves to get their career flushed down the toilet.
	__________________ "There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.

24th July 2022, 12:06 PM	#58
Ernie M Muse Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 984	Originally Posted by Upchurch Originally Posted by Ernie M Missing texts due to migration of data and/or devices doesn't pass the smell test. Hanlon’s Razor, but I’m inclined to agree with you regardless. Either way, someone is responsible and deserves to get their career flushed down the toilet. This appears it could be be Hanlon's Razor. Hanlon's razor reads "never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." But to be clear, it would be practically impossible for the texts to be erased and gone due to an unintended or unknowing result from a "device replacement program." Those 'missing' texts are part of federal government record and should've been preserved according to government policies and procedures. Did stupidity or incompetence result in the erased text messages? Or was it bad intentions? I don't know, but those 'missing' text messages—they should've been preserved. I get the sense this will turn out that a number of people deserve to get their careers flushed down the toilet.
Ernie M Muse Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 984	__________________ paranormalstateillustrated.com Taking a close look at what you see and hear on a "Real Life. Drama." TV series.

24th July 2022, 12:33 PM	#59
Delphic Oracle Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2016 Posts: 6,279	Originally Posted by Ernie M This appears it could be be Hanlon's Razor. Hanlon's razor reads "never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." But to be clear, it would be practically impossible for the texts to be erased and gone due to an unintended or unknowing result from a "device replacement program." Those 'missing' texts are part of federal government record and should've been preserved according to government policies and procedures. Did stupidity or incompetence result in the erased text messages? Or was it bad intentions? I don't know, but those 'missing' text messages—they should've been preserved. I get the sense this will turn out that a number of people deserve to get their careers flushed down the toilet. I'm willing to accept incompetence as plausible if all messages from those devices are gone. If it is just the ones from the 5th and 6th, that's just too perfect to be an accident or blunder.

24th July 2022, 02:50 PM	#60
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 26,068	Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle I'm willing to accept incompetence as plausible if all messages from those devices are gone. If it is just the ones from the 5th and 6th, that's just too perfect to be an accident or blunder. I agree.

24th July 2022, 03:25 PM	#61
Ernie M Muse Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 984	Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle I'm willing to accept incompetence as plausible if all messages from those devices are gone. If it is just the ones from the 5th and 6th, that's just too perfect to be an accident or blunder. I agree, too. But whatever led to the "erased" texts, the texts should've been archived and backed up as part of federal government record. Those texts should be public record. The "erased" text situation also brings up the issue of plausible deniability, because without those texts, which is not publicly known what they contain, that could give senior officials the ability to deny knowledge of or responsibility for any damnable actions committed by members of their organizational hierarchy. (I paraphrased most of that sentence from Wikipedia. Not that Wikipedia is always right or great, but it was descriptive of my point of without those texts, it's harder to know who knew what and when, and the context and actions that took place before, during, and after.)
Ernie M Muse Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 984	__________________ paranormalstateillustrated.com Taking a close look at what you see and hear on a "Real Life. Drama." TV series.

24th July 2022, 05:39 PM	#62
Ladewig I lost an avatar bet. Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 28,530	Poll needs more ~~cowbell~~ Planet X. I’ve heard people speculate that TFG asked a USSS agent for a cell phone to ensure that the text could not be tracked back to him. I’m doubtful.
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2nd August 2022, 03:44 PM	#63
Ernie M Muse Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 984	Originally Posted by Craig4 Originally Posted by Segnosaur If I understand correctly, according to the article, they said they found 'Metadata'.... basically information that shows when a message was sent and to whom, but nothing about the content of the text itself. So they could have been messages about "did you see that football game last week?" or they could be messages about "when should we turn Pence over to the mob?" That's the start. I expect the messages will be "found". No. I get the sense that the text messages will not be "found." Regarding the United States Secret Service cellphones and text messages and corresponding data: If the USSS was run like many US companies, I infer the USSS cellphones and the data such as text messages, computers, and cellphones, should've been put on a legal hold. The legal hold should've been done internally, (I allege) likely by the USSS legal team or the Department of Homeland Security legal team (which the USSS is under). The legal hold for the USSS cellphones/data/text messages should've been done 1) in anticipation of an imminent legal case, 2) (I allege) to be in compliance whereas the work devices are subject to the Presidential Records Act (PRA) of 1978 which is a federal records-keeping law, and 3) because of the historical significance of events on and around January 6, 2021. I allege the legal hold should've instructed the USSS not to delete electronically stored information or discard paper documents relevant to January 6. I allege the legal hold for the USSS cellphones/data/text messages/computers should've happened on January 6, 2021. I believe the cellphones should've been shut off, nothing deleted, and all devices sent to a secure location like Iron Mountain. The idea is to preserve the data, so as not to change anything or delete anything...shut the cellphones off and turn them in. I allege that the USSS cellphones, computers, which include but may not necessarily be limited to all data/text messages/emails/phone call logs should've been taken from the USSS agents, and sent to a secure location like Iron Mountain. Also, I hypothesize that the delay in notification of the USSS "erased" texts meant data could've been overwritten on storage devices not directly accessible in person. The idea is to preserve the actual USSS cellphones on January 6, 2021. In addition to missing USSS text messages: Carol D. Leonnig and Maria Sacchetti reported on 28 July 2022 for The Washington Post that "Jan. 6 texts missing for Trump Homeland Security’s Wolf and Cuccinelli" now, Tuesday, 02 Aug 2022, CNN reported that: TEXT MESSAGES HAVE BEEN WIPED FOR KEY TRUMP PENTAGON OFFICIALS CNN article titled "First on CNN: Jan. 6 text messages wiped from phones of key Trump Pentagon officials," CNN reported "The Defense Department wiped the phones of top departing DOD and Army officials at the end of the Trump administration, deleting any texts from key witnesses to events surrounding the January 6, 2021, attack on the US Capitol, according to court filings." I get the sense All those records, data, computers and cellphones should've been place on legal hold and preserved and sent to a secure location like Iron Mountain on January 6, 2021. CNN reported that the Defense Department wiped the phones of top departing DOD and Army officials. So much for the Presidential Records Act (PRA) of 1978.
Ernie M Muse Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 984	__________________ paranormalstateillustrated.com Taking a close look at what you see and hear on a "Real Life. Drama." TV series. Last edited by Ernie M; 2nd August 2022 at 04:05 PM. Reason: Corrected the link to Carol Leonnig and Maria Sacchetti's article for The Washington Post

2nd August 2022, 05:01 PM	#64
Ernie M Muse Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 984	The "About" statement on the American Oversight website: "American Oversight is a nonpartisan, nonprofit watchdog that uses public records requests backed by litigation to fight corruption, drive accountability, and defend democracy. We believe transparency is a critical tool to promote integrity in government and to protect justice, truth, and the rule of law." CNN reported that "The acknowledgment that the phones from the Pentagon officials had been wiped was first revealed in a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit American Oversight brought against the Defense Department and the Army. The watchdog group is seeking January 6 records from former acting Secretary of Defense Chris Miller, former chief of staff Kash Patel, and former Secretary of the Army Ryan McCarthy, among other prominent Pentagon officials -- having filed initial FOIA requests just a few days after the Capitol attack." From CNN source: By Tierney Sneed and Zachary Cohen. "First on CNN: Jan. 6 text messages wiped from phones of key Trump Pentagon officials." CNN. 02 Aug 2022.
Ernie M Muse Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 984	__________________ paranormalstateillustrated.com Taking a close look at what you see and hear on a "Real Life. Drama." TV series.

4th August 2022, 07:22 AM	#65
CORed Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Central City, Colorado, USA Posts: 10,501	Originally Posted by Ernie M This appears it could be be Hanlon's Razor. Hanlon's razor reads "never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." But to be clear, it would be practically impossible for the texts to be erased and gone due to an unintended or unknowing result from a "device replacement program." Those 'missing' texts are part of federal government record and should've been preserved according to government policies and procedures. Did stupidity or incompetence result in the erased text messages? Or was it bad intentions? I don't know, but those 'missing' text messages—they should've been preserved. I get the sense this will turn out that a number of people deserve to get their careers flushed down the toilet. Hanlon's razor does not apply to anything involving Trump. In that case, it's always a mixture of evil and stupidity.

4th August 2022, 02:33 PM	#66
Ladewig I lost an avatar bet. Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 28,530	Originally Posted by CORed Hanlon's razor does not apply to anything involving Trump. In that case, it's always a mixture of evil and stupidity. We know Occam’s and Hanson’s, maybe we should have a thread inviting members to speculate what Trump’s Razor should be.
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4th August 2022, 03:16 PM	#67
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 26,068	Originally Posted by Ladewig We know Occam’s and Hanson’s, maybe we should have a thread inviting members to speculate what Trump’s Razor should be. Never attribute to incompetence that which is adequately explained by malice.

4th August 2022, 03:38 PM	#68
Beelzebuddy Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 9,063	Originally Posted by Ladewig We know Occam’s and Hanson’s, maybe we should have a thread inviting members to speculate what Trump’s Razor should be. Every accusation is a confession.
Beelzebuddy Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 9,063

4th August 2022, 03:43 PM	#69
Crazy Chainsaw Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 6,900	Originally Posted by Ladewig We know Occam’s and Hanson’s, maybe we should have a thread inviting members to speculate what Trump’s Razor should be. Don't hire Idiots for an Insurrection and Cover-up if you don't want too do the Time.

4th August 2022, 03:48 PM	#70
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 26,068	Trump's Razor: Every accusation is a confession.

4th August 2022, 04:58 PM	#71
Ladewig I lost an avatar bet. Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 28,530	Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy Every accusation is a confession. What’s uncanny is how prescient he was in attacking #44 by saying Obama plays too much golf, spends too much on travel, never reads his security briefings, has too much staff turnover, etc.
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4th August 2022, 07:00 PM	#72
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 26,068	Originally Posted by Ladewig What’s uncanny is how prescient he was in attacking #44 by saying Obama plays too much golf, spends too much on travel, never reads his security briefings, has too much staff turnover, etc. Trump would be "too busy to play golf".

4th August 2022, 11:08 PM	#73
kevbo Critical Thinker Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Rogue Valley, Oregon Posts: 351	Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy Every accusation is a confession. And has been shown to be true time and time again.