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Old 2nd August 2022, 06:46 PM   #41
arthwollipot
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
This is the way Prostitution should be handled in the USA. It might as well be legal as there is no stopping it and to me if a woman wants to make money doing that then let her.
You can't ban sex work. You can only ban safe sex work.
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Old 2nd August 2022, 11:55 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Fascinating mindset.
Edited by Darat:  Moderated content removed.
, as opposed to her believing in Jesus.
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
And herein we find an encapsulation of the whole problem. Not only misogynistic but also misandronistic, and profoundly ignorant of how the sex industry operates, as well as the reasons people engage with sex workers in the first place.

Let me put it this way...if I am paying for sex, I am putting that woman (or man, if you wish) to work. I'm not the only one, and don't be naive.
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Old 3rd August 2022, 12:17 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Let me put it this way...if I am paying for sex, I am putting that woman (or man, if you wish) to work. I'm not the only one, and don't be naive.
Exactly as if you were hiring an Uber. Would you use such derogatory language to refer to your Uber driver?
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Old 3rd August 2022, 12:24 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Let me put it this way...if I am paying for sex, I am putting that woman (or man, if you wish) to work. I'm not the only one, and don't be naive.
Doesn't the same apply if I'm paying a taxi driver?

Which incidentally is also a profession at high risk of being murderized to death by a client, just to get that argument out of the way. E.g., in the USA taxi drivers are 30 TIMES above the national average workplace homicide rate, well above cops and security guards.

But if the question were "would you let your daughter be a taxi driver?" nobody would bat an eye if you said "yes."
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Old 3rd August 2022, 12:27 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Is there something admirable about prioritizing abstract truth over psychological well-being?
You're "caining" me, right. You have to be! Christianity is abstract truth? Really? Christianity supplies psychological well-being? Really?

I would never have picked you as someone with a theological bent

Originally Posted by Cain View Post
What do I want for my hypothetical daughter: The unpleasant, dangerous, low-status job of being a prostitute OR being part of a community where she's honored and loved? Most people probably say they'd prefer to be a dissatisfied Socrates rather than a satisfied pig, but what about a dissatisfied talking monkey versus a satisfied pig?
What ever makes you think that being a prostitute is unpleasant, dangerous, low-status? This is New Zealand we are talking about here, not 'Murica.

Unpleasant?
I know a couple of local prostitutes. They don't have to do what they do, they CHOOSE to do what they do. They love the work, they enjoy the pleasures of sex with no commitment and no strings, and are quite picky about which clients they will accept and which they decline. They are two of the most well adjusted people I know. One of them was a high-school teacher, and one was a chartered accountant. They quit their jobs because what they do now suits them better... and it pays better (I have been offered on several occasions and always declined.)

Dangerous?
This is just laughable. In order, the nine most dangerous jobs in New Zealand are farming, building, truck driving, rubbish collection, line mechanic, structural steel & iron worker, roofer, commercial fisherman and logging contractor/worker. The lowest ACC (Accident Compensation Corporation) Business Industry Code (BIC, which indicates the measure of how likely you are to be injured, maimed or killed in your job) is...
S953440 for Prostitutes.
S953410 for Brothel Keepers.
S953420 for Escorts.
S953425 for Massage Parlour Workers and Operators.

These are the very lowest risk BICs, way down there with office workers and administrative staff. *

Low-status:
I don't think so. The few that I know personally, earn in the 2˝K - 3K a week bracket. One of them owns a $1.5 million house on the Port Hills, another, a million dollar home in Brougham Street, one of the richest neighbourhoods in Nelson - so no, low-status...definitely not. Literally no-one I know regards professional sex workers as "low-status".

Being part of a community where she's honored and loved?
OK, now I KNOW you must be "caining" me. Women? Honoured in the Christian church? Really... I mean REALLY? Bwhahahaha! To quote a famous former tennis star... "you cannot be serious!"

*NOTE: I should point out that these BICs are not just classifications pulled out of the air. They are adjusted to account for the number and seriousness of claims made to the ACC. Sex workers were first added to the ACC levies register in 2004 after prostitution was made legal by the NZ Parliament. 18 years has passed since then, so any errors in the system have been well ironed out by now.
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Old 3rd August 2022, 12:31 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Unpleasant?
I know a couple of local prostitutes. They don't have to do what they do, they CHOOSE to do what they do. They love the work, they enjoy the pleasures of sex with no commitment and no strings, and are quite picky about which clients they will accept and which they decline. They are two of the most well adjusted people I know. One of them was a high-school teacher, and one was a chartered accountant. They quit their jobs because what they do now suits them better... and it pays better (I have been offered on several occasions and always declined.)

"Outlier is the norm", strikes again.

Honestly, it sounds so ******* stupid that it can't be quantified. But I guess it is always possible to create a supporting anecdote for anything. Good stuff.
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Old 3rd August 2022, 12:51 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
"Outlier is the norm", strikes again.

Honestly, it sounds so ******* stupid that it can't be quantified. But some people have a supporting anecdote for everything. Good stuff.
Except, its not an outlier, it IS the norm in this country. Since 2003, the vast majority of prostitutes in this country do what they do by choice, NOT because they are forced to. It's what happens when you make prostitution legal... when the gangs and the criminals no longer have control of the industry and their girls - when brothels can apply for government registration, and their workers are protected by piloce, not prosecuted by them.

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201...tutes_say.html
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Old 3rd August 2022, 12:52 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I'm not paying my Uber to **** me, bro. Usually.
Irrelevant. You are hiring them to provide a service.

Incidentally, I chose Uber as my example because Uber and sex work are both gig economy jobs. They get paid for each time they are hired, as opposed to drawing a regular salary, so they are quite analogous. It is only the service that they provide that is different.

Or do you disagree?
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Old 3rd August 2022, 01:04 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post

It is not. We have a similar situation where I live, though it is legal only in certain locations here. The industry is not controlled by organised crime. They are legitimate workers, with all the legal protections that other workers have.


And then we come back full circle. Where you say I don't understand the sex industry in the US, and I tell you that when I am paying, I am going to town on those privates.

Are you disputing my position, or that most prostitutes are abused in my own country? Or also, do you think that worldwide most prostitutes are happy, good-earners, and well-adjusted? How about SC's stories...are most living in $1M homes?
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Old 3rd August 2022, 01:26 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Are you disputing my position, or that most prostitutes are abused in my own country? Or also, do you think that worldwide most prostitutes are happy, good-earners, and well-adjusted? How about SC's stories...are most living in $1M homes?
I'm saying that in places where it's legal, they are. In places where it is not legal, sex workers are routinely abused and exploited by pimps and organised criminals. This alone is a very good reason sex work should be legal. I repeat my earlier statement:

Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
You can't ban sex work. You can only ban safe sex work.
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Old 3rd August 2022, 01:31 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I'm saying that in places where it's legal, they are. In places where it is not legal, sex workers are routinely abused and exploited by pimps and organised criminals. This alone is a very good reason sex work should be legal. I repeat my earlier statement:

My position is that "sex work" will never be safe. The animalistic nature of the transaction, and indeed the very concept of treating women or men as sex objects will not allow it.

This isn't like hiring an Uber, as you suggested.
Edited by Darat:  Breach of Rule 12 removed.
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Old 3rd August 2022, 01:55 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
My position is that "sex work" will never be safe. The animalistic nature of the transaction, and indeed the very concept of treating women or men as sex objects will not allow it.
You are wrong about that, and this goes into the reasons why I said that you were ignorant of the reasons that people engage with legitimate sex workers in the first place.

I don't blame you for your ignorance - you're clearly from a part of the world where sex work has been criminalised and delegitimised for ages, and you just haven't had any experience with legal sex work. Making it legal changes the industry a lot. You'd probably have to vote a lot of conservatives out of office before you'd see it, though.
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Old 3rd August 2022, 01:58 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
You are wrong about that, and this goes into the reasons why I said that you were ignorant of the reasons that people engage with legitimate sex workers in the first place.

I don't blame you for your ignorance - you're clearly from a part of the world where sex work has been criminalised and delegitimised for ages, and you just haven't had any experience with legal sex work. Making it legal changes the industry a lot. You'd probably have to vote a lot of conservatives out of office before you'd see it, though.

You are entirely wrong in the concept that treating people as sex objects has a desirable outcome. This is disgusting.

Do not preach to me about ignorance. Remove that plank from your eye.
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Old 3rd August 2022, 03:02 AM   #54
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Mod WarningMoved a few posts to AAH for over-heated bickering. The thread is getting rather heated so this is a reminder to stop the personalisation and get back to the topic, which is not each other.
Responding to this mod box in thread will be off topic Posted By:Darat
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Old 3rd August 2022, 05:42 AM   #55
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Just dropped in to point out that, from what I hear, the term "sex worker" is preferred over "prostitute" due to the historical negative connotations associated with the latter. Thus the thread title may be a little behind the times, at least within some circles. Of course, in a thread in which "whore" has made a misogynistic appearance, me writing this post is probably the equivalent of serving as my own sex worker.
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Old 3rd August 2022, 06:33 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
You are entirely wrong in the concept that treating people as sex objects has a desirable outcome. This is disgusting.
1. Even if I'm to accept the premise that it's not a desirable job, driving a garbage truck is also a rather undesirable job. Coal miner is a very undesirable job. Soldier, well, ask all those Iraqi tank crews -- or more recently the Russian ones -- how that worked for them. I don't see much of a drive to ban those jobs, though.

2. But here's a very conservative idea: the market decides, no? Value and desirability being measured in how much the customer is willing to pay and how many do? Supply, demand, price, that kinda thing? Adam Smith's invisible hand? Austrian School of economics? I hear conservatives and libertarians love that kinda stuff.

Well, from the whole whine going on about a lack of people who want to flip burgers and such, that actually tells you right there which is the less desired job (at the offered price.) A LOT of people would rather literally eat a bag of dicks than work minimum wage. (Presumably because the former ISN'T minimum wage.) THAT is how you determine which job is less desirable
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Old 3rd August 2022, 06:40 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Stellafane View Post
Just dropped in to point out that, from what I hear, the term "sex worker" is preferred over "prostitute" due to the historical negative connotations associated with the latter. Thus the thread title may be a little behind the times, at least within some circles. Of course, in a thread in which "whore" has made a misogynistic appearance, me writing this post is probably the equivalent of serving as my own sex worker.
Err... that's in the wording of a law from 1413. I know keyboard warriors love to be offended, but you're not gonna get people from 1413 to change that wording no matter how hard you're offended. You know, cone of causality and all that.

Well, not unless you're sexy enough to be worth taking along in my TARDIS, anyway
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Old 3rd August 2022, 07:45 AM   #58
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I prefer the descriptor of "sex worker" because it includes others in the business of selling sex, like strippers and porn stars.

As I mentioned above, you can pay someone to have sex as long as you film it (and commercialize it) and it's perfectly legal, so it seems to me that drawing the line at prostitution is fairly arbitrary.

That would be my basis for using "sex workers."
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Old 3rd August 2022, 08:56 AM   #59
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As for sex workers automatically being abused because that 'is what happens', that argument doesn't hold water in a situation where the sex work is legal and the workers can choose their clients and have legal recourse if a client abuses them.
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Old 3rd August 2022, 08:58 AM   #60
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Sex workers always being abused is what some people "want" to happen. That's why it doesn't make sense to sane people who live in reality and actually care about other people.
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Old 3rd August 2022, 09:35 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
And then we come back full circle. Where you say I don't understand the sex industry in the US, and I tell you that when I am paying, I am going to town on those privates.
Maybe if you are a sadist securing the services of a tweaker. My impression of legalized prostitution is the same as any other socially regulated transaction; normal behavior is expected. If you hire a guy to clean your yard, you don't get to whip him because "you're paying for it".

Quote:
Are you disputing my position, or that most prostitutes are abused in my own country? Or also, do you think that worldwide most prostitutes are happy, good-earners, and well-adjusted? How about SC's stories...are most living in $1M homes?
In the largely hookin'-illegal States, sure, it's a criminal business and the Low Life life abounds. Do you seriously think our $1000 high end call girls are getting deliberately mistreated? I think a full-on escort gets more like the sociable girlfriend treatment.
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Old 3rd August 2022, 09:57 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
In the largely hookin'-illegal States, sure, it's a criminal business and the Low Life life abounds. Do you seriously think our $1000 high end call girls are getting deliberately mistreated? I think a full-on escort gets more like the sociable girlfriend treatment.
I seem to remember a show on HBO a long ass time ago. It followed the actions and business practices of a legal prostitution business outside of Vegas. Everything was cordial, ran just like you'd expect a business to be run.

That being said, they had a few people that got out of line with the ladies. The men that they had there to enforce the policies were not gentle. They were not patient. They did not wait for explanations. When the woman said the man abused her, hurt her, or threatened her, they were gone. Quickly, aggressively, and, often, hilariously.

If it were legal the women who decide to work in the industry would have significantly more options to protect themselves, including the police.
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Old 3rd August 2022, 10:51 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I seem to remember a show on HBO a long ass time ago. It followed the actions and business practices of a legal prostitution business outside of Vegas. Everything was cordial, ran just like you'd expect a business to be run.

That being said, they had a few people that got out of line with the ladies. The men that they had there to enforce the policies were not gentle. They were not patient. They did not wait for explanations. When the woman said the man abused her, hurt her, or threatened her, they were gone. Quickly, aggressively, and, often, hilariously.

If it were legal the women who decide to work in the industry would have significantly more options to protect themselves, including the police.
I recall the same, or similar show. I think it was The Mustang Ranch? A guy asks how much services are, and the woman says $1000 for the full treatment. He asks what $100 will get him, and she said something like a warm handshake.

Some posters here seem ok with the idea that they would be ok with their children in this line of work. The potential for even occasional abuse makes me hard pass that. I mean, people can end up in abusive personal relationships in other settings, but just as part of your job when you are already naked and in a presumably vulnerable position is like accepting occasionally being raped as a workplace nuicance. Just not something I could wrap my head around. .
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Old 3rd August 2022, 01:08 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I recall the same, or similar show. I think it was The Mustang Ranch? A guy asks how much services are, and the woman says $1000 for the full treatment. He asks what $100 will get him, and she said something like a warm handshake.

Some posters here seem ok with the idea that they would be ok with their children in this line of work. The potential for even occasional abuse makes me hard pass that. I mean, people can end up in abusive personal relationships in other settings, but just as part of your job when you are already naked and in a presumably vulnerable position is like accepting occasionally being raped as a workplace nuicance. Just not something I could wrap my head around. .

No, you have misunderstood this thought experiment.

There is a big difference between "being OK with it" and choosing it as one of only two allowed options because I consider it the better option of those two bad choices.

In this case I posited, after being provoked by one of our resident misogynists, that if I HAD to choose between my daughters "going on the game", or being in a Christian church, I would choose the former because I consider Christianity (all like dogmatic theism) to be far more evil than prostitution. Make no mistake, I despise religions like Judaism, Christianity and Islam - religions that promote the mental and emotional abuse of women, that treat them like chattels and second class citizens, and that demand undying devotion to the church.
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Old 3rd August 2022, 02:58 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I recall the same, or similar show. I think it was The Mustang Ranch? A guy asks how much services are, and the woman says $1000 for the full treatment. He asks what $100 will get him, and she said something like a warm handshake.

Some posters here seem ok with the idea that they would be ok with their children in this line of work. The potential for even occasional abuse makes me hard pass that. I mean, people can end up in abusive personal relationships in other settings, but just as part of your job when you are already naked and in a presumably vulnerable position is like accepting occasionally being raped as a workplace nuicance. Just not something I could wrap my head around. .
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
No, you have misunderstood this thought experiment.

There is a big difference between "being OK with it" and choosing it as one of only two allowed options because I consider it the better option of those two bad choices.

In this case I posited, after being provoked by one of our resident misogynists, that if I HAD to choose between my daughters "going on the game", or being in a Christian church, I would choose the former because I consider Christianity (all like dogmatic theism) to be far more evil than prostitution. Make no mistake, I despise religions like Judaism, Christianity and Islam - religions that promote the mental and emotional abuse of women, that treat them like chattels and second class citizens, and that demand undying devotion to the church.
This is something that I've seen quite a bit. Saying that banning some thing is worse than allowing the thing is not the same saying that I approve of the thing or that I think it would be a fine thing for my children to do.

I don't want my kids using meth. Banning Meth means that the dealers will all be gangster that can't resort to non violent means of resolving business disputes.* It means the dealers and users are all far more at risk of being victims of violence or other crimes. So, banning meth, means my kids are in more danger than if meth were legal.

Banning prostitution, same thing. Now, I by no means think that being a prostitute is as bad for my kids as being a meth addict but in both case, prohibition is worse for those involved directly and for society generally than legalization.
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Old 3rd August 2022, 03:10 PM   #66
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I'm approaching it more from the perspective that people past an age are allowed to make their own choices. They don't have to be my favourite choices. But if they don't harm anyone (and no, religious busybodies getting offended doesn't count as harm), meh, do whatever you wish.

I mean, equally I mutton wouldn't be my choice for a meal (no, seriously, I can't stand the taste.) And I find mould on cheese disgusting. But you don't see me trying to legislate against either.

It's funny, really. Well, not really. But anyway, supposedly conservatives are all for smaller government and responsible spending... except when it comes to inflated military budgets, building a wall on the border, extra police and prison spending to keep you from getting an abortion, or to tell you what you can smoke, what you can do with your body, what can you talk about (see the Florida law), etc, etc, etc. Seems to me like the whole "smaller government" thing kinda falls off and apart beyond being code speak for "don't give healthcare and unemployment benefits to <insert racial expletive>". When it comes to anything else, they're actually all for MORE government.
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Old 3rd August 2022, 03:13 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
I had a bit of a look. I found this story:
https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO21...-or-hidden.htm

The report it is talking about is here:
http://<font color="Red">familyfirst...and-Report.pdf

I've no idea how reliable it is, but it might at least be a good source of links to data.
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Old 3rd August 2022, 06:28 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Stellafane View Post
Just dropped in to point out that, from what I hear, the term "sex worker" is preferred over "prostitute" due to the historical negative connotations associated with the latter.
I think it's a bit wide-ranging, and the thread is specifically about prostitution, not acting in porno movies, strippers, dominatrices, or the myriad of other sex work.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Some posters here seem ok with the idea that they would be ok with their children in this line of work.
No, I said I'd prefer she became a prostitute than a christian.

I haven't recommended it as a job to my daughter, but I wouldn't try to talk her out of it if she chose to do it.

Is it any worse to sell your genitals than your labour? Is it worse to sell your genitals than take on a really high-risk occupation, like commercial diver? A lot of wage slaves would love to earn the money prostitutes do.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The potential for even occasional abuse makes me hard pass that. I mean, people can end up in abusive personal relationships in other settings, but just as part of your job when you are already naked and in a presumably vulnerable position is like accepting occasionally being raped as a workplace nuicance. Just not something I could wrap my head around. .
Except we have strong evidence that isn't the case after legalisation, and rape isn't an inherent danger. It's punished by the full force of law, and in the case of a brothel, where very high levels of security exist and cameras are pointed at men as they enter, I think the chances of being raped on the job are probably less than at any other time of a woman's life. The woman chooses who she *****, what sex acts she will perform, and at every stage has the right to decline, just as any woman does in any sexual situation.

I don't feel the need to point out the abuses that happen within churches. They're no sanctuary.
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Old 3rd August 2022, 06:38 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
No, you have misunderstood this thought experiment.

There is a big difference between "being OK with it" and choosing it as one of only two allowed options because I consider it the better option of those two bad choices.
As a parallel from someone who answered the same way but for a different reason, and since my response to the question (which I think is entirely relevant and on-topic, and not bickery) was swept up with the spring cleaning, I say yes, I would be quite happy with a child of mine being a sex worker so long as it is voluntary, legal and safe. If that's the career they choose, I would support them in whatever way I could.
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Old 3rd August 2022, 09:30 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
No, you have misunderstood this thought experiment.

There is a big difference between "being OK with it" and choosing it as one of only two allowed options because I consider it the better option of those two bad choices.

In this case I posited, after being provoked by one of our resident misogynists, that if I HAD to choose between my daughters "going on the game", or being in a Christian church, I would choose the former because I consider Christianity (all like dogmatic theism) to be far more evil than prostitution. Make no mistake, I despise religions like Judaism, Christianity and Islam - religions that promote the mental and emotional abuse of women, that treat them like chattels and second class citizens, and that demand undying devotion to the church.
No, I got it the first time. but by comparing the best case scenario for prostitution and the worst case scenario for being a christian...is that really a fair comparison?

For example, I've been around people that call themselves/identify as Christians all my life. The overwhelming majority either don't do anything at all with their church, except local stuff with the local community. The Catholic nun who helps me direct appliances and construction jazz to community members in need is my oft repeated example, as well as my kids who would spend a few hours on the weekend making up sandwiches and box lunches for distribution by this same nun to elderly people (the woman is a damn saint).

For the other end of prostitution, do I really need to point out how decadent that goes? You want to talk about the hideous abuses and human trafficking?

See, comparing prostitutes to christians is meaningless, due to the spectrum of each. Cherry-picking the caricature that suits your narrative of each is not the most robust of arguments.

And I'd still maintain that choosing to put your daughter in a situation where sexual abuse is "part of the job" (referring to plague311's example that we were discussing) says...something, for sure.
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Old 3rd August 2022, 09:33 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
I got to wondering, and not ending up with an an obvious answer:

If a hooker agrees to have sex with someone on payment of amound X; and then, if after the deed is done, that someone either doesn't pay at all, or else insists on paying less; then what's actually going on here? Is this rape, or is this some lesser essentially financial misdemeanor?


(Not saying this is directly related to the condom case that the thread's about. I can see how that condom business is a whole different thing. Just got to wondering about this particular what-if, is all.)
I would say that it is fraud or theft, but not rape. Most sex workers insist on getting the money first, to prevent this sort of thing from happening. Of course, she might take the money and not hold up her end of the bargain. I would hope it would got without saying that this does not justify raping her. She would be guilty of fraud or theft in this case.
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Old 3rd August 2022, 10:20 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
No, I said I'd prefer she became a prostitute than a christian.

I haven't recommended it as a job to my daughter, but I wouldn't try to talk her out of it if she chose to do it.

Is it any worse to sell your genitals than your labour? Is it worse to sell your genitals than take on a really high-risk occupation, like commercial diver? A lot of wage slaves would love to earn the money prostitutes do.
True enough. Do you think these guys might have second thoughts about the glamor of that gig if they were doing other men for that good money? Would you? See, it is very different than providing work with more tangible results that add value to your community.

I think it boils down to the associations we have in the States. A prostitute is usually a streetwalker, often with drug issues (Atlantic City/New York area boy here). We don't really have clean/safe sex workers around here. It's a sordid gig for sordid people.

Although, technical sidebar time: what in the ever loving hell could she do to be worth $500/hour? Sex is free and easy in the right places, and throwing $500 around at the right bar where I live will have you going home with two hotties for the night that will let you film them and upload it to Pornhub. Are these women that talented, or is do they cater to unusually well-off yet lonely clientele? not being snarky or anything. I just don't get it.

Quote:
Except we have strong evidence that isn't the case after legalisation, and rape isn't an inherent danger. It's punished by the full force of law, and in the case of a brothel, where very high levels of security exist and cameras are pointed at men as they enter, I think the chances of being raped on the job are probably less than at any other time of a woman's life. The woman chooses who she *****, what sex acts she will perform, and at every stage has the right to decline, just as any woman does in any sexual situation.

I don't feel the need to point out the abuses that happen within churches. They're no sanctuary.
Right, but again: in the States it is largely reversed. Haven't heard of any nearby church with abuses, but dead prostitutes are a real and ongoing thing.
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Old 3rd August 2022, 11:00 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
And I'd still maintain that choosing to put your daughter in a situation where sexual abuse is "part of the job" (referring to plague311's example that we were discussing) says...something, for sure.
Let me be extremely clear. In cases where prostitution is legal and regulated, sexual abuse is absolutely not "part of the job".
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Old 4th August 2022, 01:34 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The Catholic nun who helps me direct appliances and construction jazz to community members in need is my oft repeated example,
This is a musical genre I haven't heard of before.
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Old 4th August 2022, 02:14 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
This is a musical genre I haven't heard of before.
Can't be any worse than Derek Bailey when he gets going.

Or the Christian Death Metal track I once heard.
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Old 4th August 2022, 06:17 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
And I'd still maintain that choosing to put your daughter in a situation where sexual abuse is "part of the job" (referring to plague311's example that we were discussing) says...something, for sure.
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Let me be extremely clear. In cases where prostitution is legal and regulated, sexual abuse is absolutely not "part of the job".
Did I miss me saying something in this thread? I don't think I ever claimed that sexual abuse or harassment was part of the job. My example explicitly showed that it wasn't, as if the men got unruly at all they were aggressively, and quickly dealt with by security on-hand. Which was a general rarity on the show.

So I'm not sure how this got attributed to me, but I just wanted to make my own position clear. When prostitution is legal you do not see those problems, at least not as frequently as if it were not legal.
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Old 4th August 2022, 09:53 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Did I miss me saying something in this thread? I don't think I ever claimed that sexual abuse or harassment was part of the job. My example explicitly showed that it wasn't, as if the men got unruly at all they were aggressively, and quickly dealt with by security on-hand. Which was a general rarity on the show.

So I'm not sure how this got attributed to me, but I just wanted to make my own position clear. When prostitution is legal you do not see those problems, at least not as frequently as if it were not legal.
Really don't know how else to interpret your words then, unless I am supposed to ignore them? Look:

Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I seem to remember a show on HBO a long ass time ago. It followed the actions and business practices of a legal prostitution business outside of Vegas. Everything was cordial, ran just like you'd expect a business to be run.

That being said, they had a few people that got out of line with the ladies. The men that they had there to enforce the policies were not gentle. They were not patient. They did not wait for explanations. When the woman said the man abused her, hurt her, or threatened her, they were gone. Quickly, aggressively, and, often, hilariously.

If it were legal the women who decide to work in the industry would have significantly more options to protect themselves, including the police.
Kind of means that the abuse...um...happened? No? And I see you used the plural, indicating that it was a frequent enough occurrence to be a part of the show.
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Old 4th August 2022, 10:21 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Really don't know how else to interpret your words then, unless I am supposed to ignore them? Look:

Kind of means that the abuse...um...happened? No? And I see you used the plural, indicating that it was a frequent enough occurrence to be a part of the show.
I mean, in the context that any unruly customer is part of any service job. It isn't anymore inherent in their job, in fact I'd say significantly less so, than in your typical waitress or bar tender gig.

The show I watched served alcohol, so it would occasionally happen. I certainly didn't mean to imply that it's anymore "part of the job" than in literally any other job that exists on the face of this planet.

Which was my point of clarification.
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Old 4th August 2022, 10:23 AM   #79
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Yeah I mean "Sex workers won't be treated transcendently perfectly" isn't exactly a point.

And besides by no possible logic is keeping a job "off the grid" and underground going to help that.
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Old 4th August 2022, 10:32 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Irrelevant. You are hiring them to provide a service.

Incidentally, I chose Uber as my example because Uber and sex work are both gig economy jobs. They get paid for each time they are hired, as opposed to drawing a regular salary, so they are quite analogous. It is only the service that they provide that is different.

Or do you disagree?
Well, as someone who did it for a while, I can confidently say that Uber drivers get ****** all the time. Mainly by Uber.
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